Saw Stop Safety

[Tom Dent]

In the current issue of Fine Woodworking is an advertisement for SawStop which indicates hundreds of people have avoided serious injury by using Sawstop at time of their accidents. Does anyone have first hand experience of placing their own tissue into a running blade or a RELIABLE anecdote of same. Can such accidents be so common? I am not questioning safety, I am questioning incidence. Is there documented evidence of people actually sticking their hand etc in the device

Tom

[jason lambert]

I know of 4 people that have been cought by a table saw. Some really bad others just a big nick but enought to cause permident dammage. It seems like there are no small accidents with tables saws.

[Rick Gifford]

I bet sawstop is willing to provide information backing their claims. My local dealer was talking about the school systems have these now and more are getting them. Savings on liability insurance probably helps that decision.

I haven't seen any creekers postings on sawstop accidents.

I did learn it cost 70 bucks every time the safety device is activated, plus the cost of the blade. The brake engages the blade and both are damaged and need replaced afterward. So with a good $100 blade on there it would be $170! Still better than the emergency bill I guess. If the saw wasn't so darn much money I would have got one.

[John Russell]

http://www.cpsc.gov/volstd/tablesaws/tablesaws.html

[Mike Cutler]

I Is there documented evidence of people actually sticking their hand etc in the device

Tom

You would have to go to emergency room statistics, and accidents reports from companies. I'm sure some insurance company has the statistical data.

I know one person that got their hand caught while resawing on the tablesaw,a nd I know one person that got caught in a mitersaw.
Just this past week, someone here on the board detailed their accident with a tablesaw.

The wording of their claim is a little strange.

"which indicates hundreds of people have avoided serious injury by using Sawstop at time of their accidents"

If hundreds of people have avoided accidents directly by using a Sawstop at the time of the accident, then that means that statistically hundreds have not avoided accidents using other tablesaws, of each manufacturer that has an equal or greater market share to Sawstop.
That's a lot of people sticking their hands in a tablesaw,and I'm going to define it as contact with the blade, because that is SawStops principal safety attribute that separates them from other machines .

They make an outstanding machine, even without the safety brake. But , I still find that statement suspect.

[Tim Marks]

The sawstop website has a list of "saves'.

Challenge #1: read through the list and identify the number of times where using a bladeguard would have prevented the accident without costing them $170 ($70 for a cartridge and $10o for a new sawblade).

http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop-testimonials.htm

[Jim Becker]

I, too, would suggest you ask the vendor for any specific documentation of their claims. I have no doubt that there have been folks that have benefited from the technology, but there is no independent way to verify such claims that I can think of. I also don't think it's particularly important. If you are considering buying a new "North American design" table saw, SawStop and its technology is worthy of being on the short list, IMHO. Only you can make the determination if it's right for you over other valid choices.

[Jay Knepper]

Ridge Carbide, for one, can repair chipped or missing teeth for much less than $100.

[Mike Henderson]

If I remember correctly, SawStop reports "saves" as reported by their users. So if someone sends SawStop a note saying that the blade stop was triggered and it prevented a serious injury to them, SawStop counts that as a "save". As far as I know, they do not verify the reports.

That claim of "hundreds" saved is since the saw was introduced - don't know how many years that is.

But I would expect other manufacturers have the same injury rate. They probably don't get the reports like SawStop does and they almost certainly wouldn't report the accident rate since that doesn't do anything positive for their sales.

I have a friend who's an ER nurse (and a woodworker) and she reports on saw accidents often - not just table saws, but also circular saws. She sometimes has pictures to show us. And that's just one ER, and just when she's on duty.

Mike

[Bill Wyko]

I have touched the side of the saw blade. I was lucky though, I didn't touch the teeth.:eek: That will scare the cheetos out of ya.If I had the extra money, I'd go Saw Stop. One trip to the ER will usually pay for a Saw Stop.:eek:

[Randy Klein]

I know of 2 incidents. 1 at my local woodcraft store where the guy fed his hand into the blade while ripping. That would have been nasty otherwise. The other was at the base's shop, where the guy was flicking the offcut away after passing the blade (something he says he does all the time), and just flicked too early. A guard would have prevented this.

[Rick Gifford]

If we are talking about accidents outside the sawstop saves, then I know a life long buddy that had his fingers removed by a TS.

Think of a diagonal cut starting at the index finger below the first joint, ending just below the finger nail at the pinky. All those fingers were removed.

He was 13 years old at the time, no guard in place and NO SUPERVISION!

He has lived the past 28 years without those fingers.

I use push sticks like crazy, and think of Dwayne's accident when using the table saw.

One reason I am getting a new TS with the riving knife and easy on/off feature. I should have no excuse to keep the guards on now.

[Ron Bontz]

My 2 cents. Working as a paramedic I have seen a few table saw accidents. They are never pretty and it is usually a younger person getting the injury. The ER bills can be quite high not to mention the bill from plastic surgery etc. For what it is worth, I would rather hear someone complain about the cost of a blade etc. than have to explain to them they may loose several fingers for breaking a safety rule. With that said, if I did not already have a unisaw I would seriously consider the purchase of the saw stop. With the litigation these days the way it is, I would not be surprised if some time in the near future all saws including circular saws don't wind up with this safety device. Hence I would not even worry about the stats. on saves. One would be enough for me. Well, OK that's more like 10 cents worth.:)

[Billy Dodd]

I was checking out their website last night and am very impressed with the video where they cut into a hot dog. So much so that I'm trying to talk the Ol' lady into an extra 1000 to get one.( as per another post I put on I'm going to get a cabinet saw this week if I figure out which one I want) As for the testimony goes one trip to the emergency room without insurance would cost you probably as much as your house to get your fingers sewed back on. Then there's the probability of not being able to work again and how hard is it to collect social security to pay your bills for not being able to work. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Roger Bull]

SawStop asks for the spent cartridges to be returned after a 'save'. It stores the electronic profile of the contact. Contact with flesh shows a different profile than from contact with metal or wet wood. This would be one way for them to determine actual flesh contact. I suspect most users would gladly send their cartridges in for a free replacement after a save.

On a related note, while researching SawStop prior to buying, I called SawStop to find out how many failures (failure to fire when contacting flesh) they had. I assumed that nothing will work 100% of the time. I was told emphatically that there had never been a failure when the blade contacted flesh. The stops worked 100% of the time as of mid-December 2007.

-Roger

[Kevin Groenke]

The exact number of tablesaw related injuries seems elusive, the CSPC publishes numbers, but the accuracy of those numbers are sometimes questioned. We've all certainly heard of a couple first hand, do the math, it's a lot of injuries.

I think it is safe to say that there are more injuries than there should be.

Bladeguards are very valuable safety devices and should be used whenever possible. Unfortunately few tablesaws come with with well designed, easily used bladeguards. We all know that the majority of tablesaws have their bladeguards removed. There are numerous common operations which cannot be done easily with common bladeguards. We cut 1/4 x 1/4 sticks everyday. This is done more safely and easily with the bladeguard removed.

In 4 years we've had 2 saws stopped as a result of contact with a spinning blade. Without a crystal ball I cannot know how serious the subsequent injuries MIGHT have been, but I sure am glad that a little dab of antibiotic and a band-aid was all the medical attention that was required.

SawStop replaces brakes triggered by a person contacting a spinning blade for free. They ask only that a short form be filled out and the cartridge returned so that the datastream can be analyzed and added to their database.

[Joe Chritz]

The sawstop website has a list of "saves'.

Challenge #1: read through the list and identify the number of times where using a bladeguard would have prevented the accident without costing them $170 ($70 for a cartridge and $10o for a new sawblade).

http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop-testimonials.htm


It costs about $500 bucks to replace my bullet resistant vest. Any chance I will be complaining if I have to?

Air bags are about $1500 a pop or so I hear. You are supposed to have your seat belts replaced after any major impact, thats a few hundred.

Averaging 29,000 injuries per year (at ER's) if 50% of those are blade contact then that is still a lot. A few hundred in the last couple years doesn't sound that difficult.

Joe

[Steve Jenkins]

one cabinet shop I am very familiar with replaced all their table saws with sawstops, 6 of them.
They had two injuries that prompted the decision. Each ended up being more than 50 grand in medical bills. After installing the saw stops they had an incident similar to the previous two and it required a bandaid.

[Anthony Anderson]

This happened over the course of about 2 months, when I was in the process of deciding to, and actually purchasing my SawStop.

A new Woodworker's store opened locally, so I wanted to give them some business. I inquired about buying my SawStop from them. The owner said he would get some info, and contact me. A couple of weeks went by, I stopped back in and he had no real new info. Two more weeks went by and he stated that SawStop already had a distributor in the area, and that they would not establish another in a close proximity to another. Okay, I will have to purchase from the other place. I purchased from the other distributor, and they were great to deal with, and I still frequent that store. After I got the SawStop delivered I stopped at the new woodworker's store to get some supplies, and I noticed that one of the employee's hand was bandaged. It turns out that he had been ripping some wood on the tablesaw, at the store, and he somehow came into contact with the blade, cutting off his thumb and part of his index finger, IIRC. The point, if the owner of the new woodworker store had purchased a SawStop at the same time as I had, the older gentleman who had lost his fingers would still have complete and full use of his hand. I completely believe the claims, regarding "saves", made by SawStop, because in my experience they have been a stand up company who takes care of their customers. I am sure that if you have questions regarding supporting material of their claims, they would provide it. Contact them.

[Mike Henderson]

Regarding ER cost, I had a woodworking accident. No major damage but required stiches. Went to the ER, got stiches, X-ray to see if the bone was chipped, and antibiotic shot - a bit over $1,000.

I can't imagine what it would cost if you cut off a finger. The SS would seem very cheap after that.

Mike

[Sam Yerardi]

I'll be one of the first here to sheepishly admit when I was very young (I'm 53 and this happened when I was 17) I had a table saw injury. I was inexperienced with a table saw and was totally ignorant of the concept of kickback. I was attempting to push a piece of wood about 1"x2"x8" into the blade with my bare hands. The piece of wood was between the fence and the blade, with the fence/blade distance set to about 1". I had my finger against the outside of the piece of wood and was moving it into the blade. I thought I was safe because my fingers weren't in the path of the blade, or so I thought. All went well until the rear end of the piece reached the backside of the blade. The wood shot up and in the process somehow dragged my finger right into the blade. Fortunately I didn't lose the finger but suffered a very nasty cut and a bruised ego. I'm still amazed I didn't have a more serious injury. If you've ever cut yourself with a knife - you have this sudden feeling of pain obviously, but the slice is so quick you realize it was a knife. With a tablesaw, it felt like that plus someone hitting my finger with a baseballl bat at the same time. I looked down thinking my finger would be gone. I learned very painfully that day to ALWAYS use push-sticks, ALWAYS keep my hands well away from the blade, ALWAYS respect the tool, and to ALWAYS keep my mind on what I'm doing. I distinctly remember that just before it happened, I had this strange premonition that something was going to happen but it was too late. I lost feeling in the tip of my finger for years. I finally got it all back but I have never forgotten that day. Every time I start up a power tool, especially a table saw, I remember this. Read my other posting today about what I read a surgeon say about jointer injuries. Basically, tablesaw and bandsaw injuries tend to be repairable more often than not. With jointer injuries, there's usually nothing left to repair with.

As far as the user comments of safety, I worked in the laser manufacturing field for eight years. A manufacturer can claim all day how safe there products are based on what customers say but absolutley none of that will mean a thing in court. The manufacturer is giving you the impression that their product is tested and is safe but while positive customer evaluations are good to hear, they don't mean much at all when something goes wrong.

[John Russell]

Regarding ER cost, I had a woodworking accident. No major damage but required stiches. Went to the ER, got stiches, X-ray to see if the bone was chipped, and antibiotic shot - a bit over $1,000.

I can't imagine what it would cost if you cut off a finger. The SS would seem very cheap after that.

Mike

I lost the tip of my left index; it was about 7k after all was said and done .... and then there is the ongoing frustration of numbness, loss of dexterity, etc...

[Joe Jensen]

In the current issue of Fine Woodworking is an advertisement for SawStop which indicates hundreds of people have avoided serious injury by using Sawstop at time of their accidents. Does anyone have first hand experience of placing their own tissue into a running blade or a RELIABLE anecdote of same. Can such accidents be so common? I am not questioning safety, I am questioning incidence. Is there documented evidence of people actually sticking their hand etc in the device

Tom

1) I put my left index finger in a TS when I was 14 years old.
2) My father recently had a board kick back and it pushed his finger into the saw.
3) My brother had a kick back and his thumb was badly damanged, but he didn't lose it.
4) A friend from work cut three fingers completely off his left hand when he was 15. Surgeons were able to reattach them, and he as able to go on to play college BBall
5) An acquaintence at work cut 4 fingers off his left hand. Surgeons were able to reattach them, but 2 do not bend at the joints
6) Anther woodworker friend had a back spasm and his thumb went into the saw. Bad injury, but he saved the thumb. Sadly, this was only 2 weeks after he looked closely at buying a SawStop, but didn't because he thought he was safe enough.

In all cases, a properly installed guard, and / or safer operations would have prevented the injury. Is a SawStop necessary, no, but I now have one.

[Mike Heidrick]

I have had bad kickback - but the damage was to my gut not my finger - laceration cut (cut me but not my shift!! Literally pushed the shirt into me!) and red mark for 6 months. Was cutting 3/4" ply 12"X12" hit me like a missle! I learned to not stand in the path of the blade. I also installed my guard the day after it happened on my Delta 1.5hp.

After learning about the sawstop my dad and I went halves on one and he is not a WW at all and lives in another town!! he saw it and asked why I did not have one - I said it was 4K - he said I will pony up 2K if you will. Done.

[Randal Stevenson]

I have a friend whose 95 year old Grandfather, cut off three fingers, and made a tourniquet for his fingers until his grandaughter made her usual visit about two hours later.
I've had at least three other people I know become stubbies by table saws, and a few others by their own stupidity and other actions (one instance putting BOTH arms in a snowblower, to unclog it while running).

Granted most stock guards suck, but I quickly listened to people and bought the Sharkguard, for my table saw. I also purchased Grrr-rippers but then decided against them and prefer the EZ Smart for small, narrow rips.

There is a LOT one can do to minimize their chances, but if one can afford one, I think this is cheap insurance/technology. The problem is not everyone CAN afford one. I remember a scene in the movie Sicko about a guy who cut off the ends of two fingers with his tablesaw. He was cutting construction grade (2x if I remember the quote) material, on a benchtop ($89) tablesaw, with NO installed gaurd, and trying to hold the board before the blade, and AFTER the blade.
There are freak accidents, but we have to watch the number one problem with ANY saw (table, radial, circular), and that is US as the user.

As for here, I thought one person bought one a while back and had a trip by cutting either some material with metal in it, or not watching his miter gauge extension and cutting the tip of that.

[Scott Seigmund]

I recently purchased a beautiful condition PM 66 from a local cabinetmaker who is putting in a second Saw Stop. This business ended up in the State workmen’s comp pool for three years due to a serious claim (non-table saw related). The high rate for comp in the state pool nearly broke the business. This business received a rate reduction after purchasing the Saw Stop. More significantly, the saw has been triggered twice due to contact with the operator’s hands. The first incident was a classic “reach-over kick back” which left a very shallow nick requiring only a band-aid. The second trigger (same employee within a two-week period) was also a “reach-over kick back” but this time involving a dado blade. The initial contact was with a fingernail, which is much less conductive than skin tissue, with the nail being torn away before triggering the brake. Obviously loss of a nail is far less serious than loss of fingers. I have seen one dado accident, and I can promise you there is really nothing salvageable.

This particular Saw Stop TS has been in service for one year and has triggered six times; twice on the human contact, twice on wet materiel, and twice on metallic laminate. I examined two of breaking devises and two wrecked blades. The owner said on half the trigger incidents, that the blades could be reused. The arbor bearings have been replaced already, and a broken elevation gear was replaced. In terms of smoothness, this saw is nowhere near a good as the PM that I purchased, and I am dubious as to the long-term reliability given the forces involved in these triggerings. Durability is a distant consideration given the litigation and insurance climate that businesses, schools and other institutions must operate in. It will be interesting to see how this product influences competing saw manufacturers. I think demand in small woodworking businesses and schools may be significant enough to induce the development of similar devices on other saws. In the short run, Saw Stop has a technological lead and commands a price premium as a result. If other manufacturers develop competing technologies, competition will level the price.

Another thing to consider is the probability of failure of the technology, durability over long periods of time (tables saws last for decades) and the need for periodic maintenance. Businesses and education institutions may find these factors, as well as the high initial costs, justifiable relative to the cost of injuries. Presently, the additional safety offered by Saw Stop is only available to the affluent hobbyist. The less affluent hobbyist must weight work, and safety habits/knowledge against the risk of injury. So far, I can still count to ten. Lets hope it stays that way;-)

Scott

[Dick Strauss]

Folks,
I suspect that SawStop's numbers are the number of requests for a new braking cartridge even if it was activated doing a safety demo.

Roger,
Possibly the reason SawStop wants the brake cartridge is to rebuild the brake mechansim to save money like they do with car alternators, etc?

[Daniel Shnitka]

Philberg Boat Works, Victoria, BC. The user lost all his fingers on his left hand trying to do a blind dado.
The plastic surgon sent back the workers collegue to retrieve the fingers from the bin under the saw. Just hamberger
My brother cut his three fingers nearly off his left hand on his table saw. Much surgery and two years of therapy.
Should you ever loose a hand you may come to appreciate its worth in ways you can not count.

[Anchul Axelrod]

While attending the Wood Show, which wasn't much of a show, in MO, I went to my local Sawstop dealer who was giving hot dog demos on the Sawstop. When he was about to start the demo, I interrupted him, and explained that I have been doing my research, and wanted to see a VERY fast feed of that hot dog into the blade. So . . .he cut a kerf into the wood, then put the hot dog on it, and feed it into the blade. More like threw it into the blade. The hot dog . . . as you would all expect, just a nick.

Say what you will. Expensive they are. Any chance of keeping all 10, I'll take to enjoy this hobby for a lifetime. I am expecting my 5H Sawstop to be delivered tomorrow! Along with the 20" Powermatic planer with Byrd cutter head :D

[Greg Pavlov]

.....This particular Saw Stop TS has been in service for one year and has triggered six times; twice on the human contact, twice on wet materiel, and twice on metallic laminate. ......Scott
It sounds like this company should be putting a lot more effort into employee training.

[Greg Pavlov]

Philberg Boat Works, Victoria, BC. .....
Should you ever loose a hand you may come to appreciate its worth in ways you can not count.
Above 5, anyway ....

[Brian Penning]

After receiving a bad kickback into my gut(drew blood)and worse cut of my finger all in one move, I got a SawStop. Actually, SWMBO ordered me to get one.

[Wilbur Pan]

Regardless of how accurate the actual number of saves by SawStop are, the thing that is most telling to me is that there has NEVER been a report that someone had an accident on a SawStop where the safety mechanism failed to go off.

[Kevin Groenke]

Folks,
I suspect that SawStop's numbers are the number of requests for a new braking cartridge even if it was activated doing a safety demo.

Possible, but I don't think so. SS has analyzed the data from 1000's of these cartridges and seem to know the signatures left by common causes for triggers. For every cartridge I've sent them, they've called me back and discussed what caused the event. On one occasion SS actually asked us to do something again to try to discern the cause. Eventually it was determined that black museum board has carbon in it and can cause the saw to stop.

Unless somebody uses a finger for a demo, SS can tell the difference. The electronic signature of a hot dog is apparently distinctly different than that of a living finger. SS probably can't afford to replace cartridges from every yahoo with a wiener. The $70 price tag seems to be just enough of a dis-incentive to show off the feature. We did it once with a free cartridge SS gave us. I'm tempted to do it every time I teach a class, but I don't.



Roger,
Possibly the reason SawStop wants the brake cartridge is to rebuild the brake mechansim to save money like they do with car alternators, etc?

I've wondered about this but haven't asked SS. I don't think SS would take the chance of re-using any of the external parts of the brake as they usually have easily discernible damage. The may re-use the electronics, but there really isn't much in there so I doubt it. I'll ask next time I talk to SS.


-kg

[Don Bullock]

Good thread. It's nice to see a good discussion on SawStop for a change. I have no doubt that the numbers quoted by SawStop are accurate. Many of the table saw accidents aren't reported on forums like this, but enough are to convince me that the saw is worth the money for me. I'm sure, however, that we'll all hear when one fails to work and someone is seriously injured.

[walter stellwagen]

when I was ten years old (I"m now 78) I was helping my father make a top for a sauerkraut tub my job was to turn the saw on and off .Somehow i rested my elbow on the table when I turned on the saw Zap I was taken to a surgeon who stiched me up and
said the cut just missed the main nerve to my hand. Took me about a year before arm worked properly again . Have an 8 inch scar to remind me for the rest of my life.Care to guess how many of my kids Total of six do wood working?

Walt

[Loren Hedahl]

when I was ten years old (I"m now 78) I was helping my father make a top for a sauerkraut tub my job was to turn the saw on and off .Somehow i rested my elbow on the table when I turned on the saw Zap I was taken to a surgeon who stiched me up and
said the cut just missed the main nerve to my hand. Took me about a year before arm worked properly again . Have an 8 inch scar to remind me for the rest of my life.Care to guess how many of my kids Total of six do wood working?

Walt


I'll bite. Six of 'em.

[Ben Cadotte]

My local western tool supply had sold one to a cabinet shop a couple months ago. 1 week after they got it the owner put is hand into the blade. Didn't even need stitches. They have a picture of it on the saw on display in the store now.

[Al Willits]

"""""""""""
In all cases, a properly installed guard, and / or safer operations would have prevented the injury. Is a SawStop necessary, no, but I now have one.
"""""""

Good point, I think those who can afford it, will buy one, those who can't will have to be more careful.

Al

[Dick Strauss]

Kevin,
Thanks for the additional info. It sounds like they are constantly tried to work on QC and software updates for the recognition algorithms. I'm impressed!

The electronics would probably be the first thing to be damaged by a 10G shock from the mechanism activation. IMHO the mechanical parts are much more likely to be able to be refurbished (as they are in the auto parts industry).

[Mike Gabbay]

I think an interesting statistic would be how many accidents were due to not using the installed guards. I do like the concept of the SawStop but at the same time if you use the right guards I would expect the total number of serious accidents would decline.

Maybe I'm one of the few, but I have my guard on 99% of the time for rips and crosscuts. Only on a very occasion do I not have it on. I definately feel more comfortable with it on.

my 2 cents.

[Bill Jepson]

OK Group,
Ignoring the legislative efforts of Saw Stop which I despise, I am absolutely thrilled with the technology. I looked through the SawStop at a local woodcraft. I'm a mechanical engineer and designer. My take on the Saw Stop is that it is an exceptionally GOOD design. If a multi-tripped saw does have bearing issues, which hasn't been true of the demo units I've seen at local Woodcrafts, is that a big deal? Often parts that save people cause damage to the base unit in excess of there own cost. Someone mentioned a car air bag as an example. My point is that if the saw made a major save, AND YOU HAD TO THROW THE SAW AWAY AFTERWARDS YOU WOULD STILL BE WAY AHEAD! We know that usually the only replacement needed is a replacement cartrige and blade. I have often heard from others on the forum of Saw Stop comping owners for cartriges that went off in wet wood, you simply can't do any better than that!
When Volvo's were first imported into the United States they required that they REMOVE the seat belts! Goverment stupidity. There seems to be a thread here that this technology is unnecessary, which is not correct. This is a technology that already has a large base of saves to it's credit both large and small. I would never ask you to take the anti-lock brakes off your car because "it works perfectly well without it." The real point is that it works better and more importantly SAFER with it. I will buy a Saw Stop when I can afford it, not just for the brake, but because it is a excellent saw AND has the brake. SWIMBO has already signed off on it, and that ain't easy. These threads seem to brake down into arguements about SS good, SS bad. That is too bad because it is the case of missing the forest for the trees, not a great idea on a WW forum! My $0.02.
Bill Jepson

[Mike Henderson]

My point is that if the saw made a major save, AND YOU HAD TO THROW THE SAW AWAY AFTERWARDS YOU WOULD STILL BE WAY AHEAD! Bill Jepson
That is absolutely true! Even if you only considered the medical bill and did not consider the loss of functionality in your life it would still be true.

Mike

[Dennis Hatchett]

These threads seem to brake down into arguements about SS good, SS bad. That is too bad because it is the case of missing the forest for the trees, not a great idea on a WW forum! My $0.02. - Bill Jepson

I couldn't agree more Bill. Some people seem to argue that if you just use the blade guard, operate safely, etc... then you don't need to spend the money for the Sawstop.

Bill used the example of anti-lock brakes. I'll use the example of the worlds safest car. Seatbelts, side airbags, anti-lock brakes, bullet proof glass, a skilled driver, and puncture proof tires will not protect you from a semi-truck driver who crosses the yellow line.

Very experienced woodworkers have accidents, and there but by the grace of God go any of us. Sometimes it is something completely unforeseen. It could be a hidden knot, a distraction from someone coming in the shop, or just plain ol' inattention. Accidents happen. I know at least 10 men who have lost fingers and most of them were more experienced than me.

I came very close a few months ago to a complete disaster. A friend came to my shop and borrowed a piece of lumber. I didn't notice a board balancing precariously on the top of my wood rack a few feet away from the tablesaw. It tipped and fell as I was ripping plywood and the slam on the top of the table startled me, shifting the plywood and kicking back into my gut. Fortunately my hand was clear of the blade, but there are other times when my hand could have gone right into the blade.

It seems simple to me. You have a much better chance of avoiding serious injury if you have a Sawstop and practice safe technique. What could be controversial about that?

[Tim Marks]

I tend to believe SS claims for the number of claims. However, I do believe that having the SS lulls some people into a sense of security that might lead to blade contact (such as the guy who slapped a TS top while telling a story, and slapped right on top of the blade... no bladeguard, not in use, blade spinning).

The SS website shows almost every shot of their TS WITHOUT a bladeguard. This reinforces the thought of safety without a bladeguard?

CPSC data is extrapolated for the year of 2001 based upon about one month worth of data, so there is probably some error in the numbers... but not enough to really care about.

The CPSC analysis of TS injuries in 2001 estimates 38,000 injuries due to tablesaws. 50-78% (28% said "unknown") of TS involved did not have a blade guard, and 57-90% (33% said "unknown") did not have a splitter. 86% were blade contact, 14% were due to hits by ejected wood. Amputations accounted for 9% of the injuries.
http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/FOIA03/os/powersaw.pdf

[Joe Chritz]

I know I have said this before but it is worth repeating.

The problems reported with the Sawstop often fall onto people being reluctant to accept change.

Using vehicles as an example, that safety features of which I am very familiar. I do accident reconstruction as part of my duties.

Many people disliked anti-lock brakes. I know administrators who ordered patrol vehicles without them because they thought they were bad. Even pre-debugging they were good but they were different. Air bags could hurt you especially if you were a child or small stature. They were disliked for that reason for a while. These are now accepted and common place safety features.

Personally I don't care what you (as a whole not anyone in particular) use. Telling someone that using a splitter or riving knife and a blade guard is all that is needed is a disservice to them. Maybe the risk is acceptable for one person but not another. What people, especially new people, need is facts so they can make their own conclusions and risk assessment.

Joe

[Wilbur Pan]

I tend to believe SS claims for the number of claims. However, I do believe that having the SS lulls some people into a sense of security that might lead to blade contact....

The CPSC analysis of TS injuries in 2001 estimates 38,000 injuries due to tablesaws. 50-78% (28% said "unknown") of TS involved did not have a blade guard....

Another way of looking at this data is that SawStop could reduce the impact of 50-78% of accidents to a minor laceration.

But, to get back to your main point, I don't know of any safety device that caused an increase in the type of accidents that the safety device was designed for. I may be wrong, but as far as I know car accidents did not increase after the introduction of air bags.

[Peter Quadarella]

Actually, anti-lock brakes are proven to be less effective than normal on dry pavement, and many cars now come with the option to turn off front air bags for the added danger they bring to shorter people or children.

That said I think they are great things to have, as is the Saw Stop safety feature, as long as the feature is not mandated by the government.

[Thomas S Stockton]

I was talking to a friend who got one after one of his workers cut themselves pretty bad and the cartgidge has a chip in it that records some info when the thing is triggered and that sawstop likes you to send them in. His workers have triggered theirs 5 times a couple when they nicked a miter gauge and a couple when they hit a embedded metal object and one they never figured out. Luckily no test on flesh but he really likes the saw.
Tom

[jason lambert]

My wife gave me the go haead on a saw stop her logic is that I am pretty careful now nad may not need it, but who knows as I get older also she also pointed out it is just not for me, my fathor will come over and work, the occicional contractor and our kids may use it some day. That was enough to convince me.

[Art Mann]

IPersonally I don't care what you (as a whole not anyone in particular) use. Telling someone that using a splitter or riving knife and a blade guard is all that is needed is a disservice to them. Maybe the risk is acceptable for one person but not another. What people, especially new people, need is facts so they can make their own conclusions and risk assessment.
Joe

That is just your opinion and not a documented fact. In reality, blade guards and riving knives are extremely effective in preventing tablesaw injuries. The problem is that hardly anyone, including me, uses one regularly. Certain cuts require that the blade guard be removed and it is just too much trouble to take it off and put it on all the time. What the Sawstop really offers is a strong measure of protection against blade contact with no guard in place.

I think it is a disservice to new woodworkers to tell them they have to spend $4000+ for a tablesaw in order for it to be safe. What we ought to be doing is encouraging them to use the safety equipment on whatever saw they buy, and to buy a Sawstop if they can afford it. Affluent people tend to forget that if $4000 is the minimum price for a tablesaw, then very few hobbiests will ever own one.

[Carl Fox]

I like my fingers. I have started wearing Mechanix workgloves when working with wood. I miss the feel of the wood, I do not miss the splinters and they give a little more protection.

I also keep my hands well clear of moving steel. Pushsticks, sleds, fingerboards are your friends.

[Glen Blanchard]

I like my fingers. I have started wearing Mechanix workgloves when working with wood.

Hmmmmm. Do you think that is a good decision? I think most (including me) would suggest that wearing gloves around machines that might grab hold of them and pull your hand into a rotating blade is less than wise.

[Chris Padilla]

SS appears to be a fine piece of machinery. I would buy it even if it DID NOT have its claim to fame safety feature. Mr. Gass did a fine job.

Vigilence...Always!

[Bill Jepson]

Actually, anti-lock brakes are proven to be less effective than normal on dry pavement,<SNIP>
That said I think they are great things to have, as is the Saw Stop safety feature, as long as the feature is not mandated by the government.

I beg to differ, as anti-lock in good shape will ALWAYS stop shorter than none if the brakes are pushed to lockup. (Ex racer and mech engineer) This bears no revelence to a straight safety feature like the SawStop brake though, since if it failed the saw would be no more dangerous than a conventional TS. The saw also HAS all the "standard" safety features as well. (Riving knife, blade guard, large paddle off switch etc.) If you chose to operate without those features it is your own decision.

Bill J

[Joe Chritz]

Granted it is a tad off topic but the difference in brakes is minimal on a dry pavement lock up but ABS is a bit longer most of the time.

It is possible for drag factor to be reduced because of rubber particles under the locked wheels on some road surfaces and as such make ABS a shorter stop but it isn't common. All else equal, a full lock up slide to stop is always the shortest stop. You don't however have any steering control which is another factor all together.

Not sure if I mentioned it but reconstructing accidents is one of my job duties. It gets way more involved then skid marks. You can't fight physics.

Back to your regularly scheduled debate. :D

Joe

[Al Willits]

Couple of things, long time drag racer motor head here, pushing your tire to full lock up and having them skid is not as quick as stop as bringing the tires up to just before lock up, also earlier anti lock brakes were slower than a good (rare) driver, they have improved over the years so I don't know how they fair now.

Also back to SS, deduct the estimated cost of the brake in the saw, would you still buy this saw or look elsewhere for that kind of money?
Loaded question I know, but when I looked at them they did seem nicely made, but not sure any better than a 2k+ saw, not having the chance to play with one or disassemble to look, I don't know.

Al

[Rod Sheridan]

That is just your opinion and not a documented fact. In reality, blade guards and riving knives are extremely effective in preventing tablesaw injuries. The problem is that hardly anyone, including me, uses one regularly. Certain cuts require that the blade guard be removed and it is just too much trouble to take it off and put it on all the time. What the Sawstop really offers is a strong measure of protection against blade contact with no guard in place.



My first tablesaw at home was a Craftsman contractor saw with the ubiquitous combination splitter/guard assembly.

The guard was fastened to the mounting bracket by two screws with wing nuts, and took a few seconds to remove or install. I used it at all times, except for non through sawing operations.

When I upgraded to a General 650, I purchased a Merlin removable splitter, and an Excalibur overarm guard. Now I don't have to remove the guard for non through sawing operations, except for using a tenon jig.

I made a tenon jig guard, which worked well, hover I now cut tenons on the shaper so the tablesaw guard now is never removed from the saw.

When I worked in industry, guards were always used, without fail.

It's a mind set, in an industrial environment, safety is #1 priority, and people work that way. There is training, inspection and supervision by superiors or peers for safety. Everyone goes home at the end of shift via their choice of transportation, not via an ambulance.

At home, we often lack the training or knowledge to recognize dangerous operations before it's too late.

One of the great aspects of a forum like this, is the ability to mentor someone at a distance, and to provide posts that encourage the safe operation of machinery.

Posting that hardly anyone uses guards because they are inconvenient, does a diservice to people who are attempting to learn the safe way to operate machinery.

Many of us do use guards, and when they are inconvenient for a particular purpose, we spend considerable effort and/or money to obtain guards that are convenient to use.

That's the message we need to provide to people via the forum.

Regards, Rod.

P.S. There has been considerable discussion regarding who will replace Norm, on the New Yankee Workshop.

Everytime my wife (who also is a woodworker) sees Norm on TV she asks, "has that idiot sawn his fingers off yet"?

Hopefully whomever replaces Norm will purchase a guard for the saw, or a SawStop with a proper guard.

We need to stop encouraging people to work unsafely, and start providing responsible, safety oriented mentoring instead.

[Art Mann]

Rod,

Did you read my whole post or just the first paragraph? For your convenience, I will repeat the important part.

"What we ought to be doing is encouraging them to use the safety equipment on whatever saw they buy, and to buy a Sawstop if they can afford it."

I pointed out that few people use guards, not to encourage the practice, but because it is a fact. I have been in countless small cabinet shops over the years and i can't remember a single instance where the guard was in place. My overall point was that, rather than beating the Sawstop drum to a bunch of people who ostly can't afford one, we ought to be encouraging them to use the safety equipment they already have, because it is effective, if inconvenient.

Art

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod,

Did you read my whole post or just the first paragraph? For your convenience, I will repeat the important part.

"What we ought to be doing is encouraging them to use the safety equipment on whatever saw they buy, and to buy a Sawstop if they can afford it."

I pointed out that few people use guards, not to encourage the practice, but because it is a fact. I have been in countless small cabinet shops over the years and i can't remember a single instance where the guard was in place. My overall point was that, rather than beating the Sawstop drum to a bunch of people who ostly can't afford one, we ought to be encouraging them to use the safety equipment they already have, because it is effective, if inconvenient.

Art

Hi Art, my opologies for appearing to single you out as supporting the practice of not using guards, which you do support.

I'm in complete agreement with using guards and a SawStop system if you can, as you stated in your post.

What I'm not in agreement with is continuing to post that guards are too difficult to use, as this sends the message to less experienced woodworkers than yourself, that the solution is just to not use a guard.

I agree that they're often not the best product that the manufacturer could supply, witness the fact that my Craftsman and General saw came with a similar design of guard, regardless of the price difference betweeen the machines.

Art, as the people who do the mentoring, I feel we need to push the "use the guard or make new ones" angle to encourage other people to use the guards at all times.

I only had one close call with the table saw, and the overarm guard prevented my hand from contacting the blade. If I hadn't been using it, I might now have problems typing.

Thanks for the comments Art, I appreciate them......Rod.

[Gary Warren]

If we are talking about accidents outside the sawstop saves, then I know a life long buddy that had his fingers removed by a TS.

Think of a diagonal cut starting at the index finger below the first joint, ending just below the finger nail at the pinky. All those fingers were removed.

He was 13 years old at the time, no guard in place and NO SUPERVISION!

He has lived the past 28 years without those fingers.

I use push sticks like crazy, and think of Dwayne's accident when using the table saw.

One reason I am getting a new TS with the riving knife and easy on/off feature. I should have no excuse to keep the guards on now.

So what saw are you going to buy??? I am in the market for a new saw and have a very tough time justifying the additional cost of a Saw Stop. I do treat a TS with huge respect and always use my guards and push sticks as I did have a minor scare when I was young and stupid many years ago using my dad's TS. Just curious as to what you are now looking at.