Old Iron Question

[Ben West]

I'm in the process of putting together a bandsaw-centric shop -- at least for a year or two, when I'll expand my current 12' x 30' shop into a 30x40 and add tablesaw etc. I had planned to pick up a Grizzly G0514X2, but was tempted yesterday by an interesting option I'd like everyone's opinion of.

My brother-in-law is one of those folks who always is looking for good cheap buys on stuff (tools, vehicles, ski-doos, you name it), fixes it up a bit, and re-sells it for a little $$. Last week, he happened on an old Powermatic 81 20" bandsaw at a cabinet shop that was shutting down. He bought it for a song, and would sell it to me at his cost (around $500, I think).

I looked at it, and it needs a little TLC, but mostly in great shape. We don't know yet if it's single or 3-phase, so that may factor into things.

What do you think? An old Powermatic 81 or a Grizzly G0514X2? By the time I buy Powermatic and invest a little in it for new tires, new paint, fence (fence is missing) etc., it still would be somewhat cheaper than the Grizz. If I have to put a new single phase motor in it, the price will likely be a wash.

[Rich Schneider]

In my opinion you wouldn't ever regret buying and fixing up (or is that restoring) the Powermatic 81 assuming that it has not been completely mistreated and trashed. I think the general consensus among old/older equipment buffs like myself is that the Powermatic 81 is one of the best bandsaws in its size range, especially if it is one of the green and white 1970s/1980s era machines. If it is an older gold model that would be great too. It probably doesn't have the clearance under the guides that the new Grizzly has but gosh what a piece of equipment! P.S. If you don't take it let me know...

[Rob Russell]

If you were comparing the Powermatic to one of the 20" Italian saws sold by MiniMax, Felder, Agazzani, etc - I'd say go for one of those, but they're in the $3K range.

I'd think the older PM - once properly setup and tuned - would be better than the Grizzly, but I have nothing concrete to base that opinion on.

You say that rewiring the saw to single-phase won't be a big deal. Why do you say that? Do you have a single-phase motor to put on it?

[Pete Bradley]

There's not much comparison between the Powermatic 81 and the Griz. The only downside I can think of for the Powermatic is that it's got a bigger footprint.

Take stock of anything cracked or broken, since replacement cost and parts-finding time can add up. If it's more than 10 years old, you really should do bearings, which is not too bad if you have some basic mechanical skills and a decent tool box. If you don't own suitable pullers for the wheels, you can probably rent them somewhere nearby.

It's not clear from your post whether you have 3-phase power. If not, converting to single phase is likely to be the biggest single expense of the job. You will have to figure out whether to do a motor swap or phase conversion. There are lots of good FAQs out there on phase conversion with VFDs and RPCs.

If it were me and the PM was complete and unbroken, I'd take the PM. You can check out the Old Woodworking Machines site for more information also.

Pete

[Ben West]

Rich,

Yes, it's a green one, built in 1970, according to the label.

Thanks!

[Peter Quinn]

At the very least buying the old PM allows you to reduce/reuse/recycle with a beautiful old piece of machinery...saves iron on the world market!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ben, I'd certainly go with the Powermatic. Old iron has a mass that none of the newer stuff has. I don't think the market would bear the cost of building the way they used too. You will be suprised how well it works too.

I went through the same decision that your going through, and I chose the old Oliver that is the subject of a current thread here, over a Minimax. Your Powermatic is no doubt in better shape, but the little bit of fiddling it takes to get them running really gets you a great feel for the tool.

[Ben West]

Rob,

Thanks for the input.

Actually, we (he) doesn't know exactly why it's not running. It could be wire for 3-phase, or it could be a simple switch or other wiring issue.

If it's the latter, that can be fixed easy. If it's the former, he has a 3 hp single phase for replacement.

The original switch on the bandsaw lists 3 wiring options, 3 phase, 230v, or 115v, but no indication of what it actually is.

[Bob Feeser]

There are actually a lot of factors to consider here. Don't mind me if I ramble.

What are the capacities of the 2 machines? How much tension can you create on each. Resawing requires an excessive amount of pressure/straightness. Some newer lower end band saws have a copressible spring, that won't give you the proper tension you need.
What kind of shape is the Powermatic in? As another mentioned old parts can be expensive if they are major parts that are not replaceable from other sources. Either that or have available Powermatic junk yards and I remember seeing a few. If the major arm has a crack in it, that may be something that is difficult to get right.
What is it worth? I bought an old Walker Turner 16" Band Saw, and fixed it up, although it worked properly from the start. It has a 3 phase motor in it as well, so a phase converter switch was installed on it. They say starting a 3 phase motor is the only time it is 3 phase. So I press in a red button, and hold it, then flip on the switch, it starts, and I release the red button. Phase converters are not as expensive as new motors, although a 3 phase motor only puts out 2/3rds of its rated horsepower when running on single phase electric. I still have all the power I need.
The feeling of old world cast iron refinished, and finely tuned is a unique feeling. It has that feeling of character. I am not basing new tools, I love them too. Here is the before and after of my 1948 Walker Turner Band Sawhttp://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/30466/2640645780100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/2789/2917692780100733997S600x600Q85.jpghttp://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/5382/2959895410100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

[Fred Woodward]

I would go with the PM, just because. You'll learn a lot doing the restoration and it shouldn't be very expensive unless there is a major part broken. As for 3 phase. I would look at the nameplate on the motor. It will say 3 phase if it is. If there is a starter capacitor on the motor, it isn't 3 phase. If you can post a picture of the motor and the saw in general that would help.
That is a nice saw though and definitely worth restoring. Wish you were closer to me. :rolleyes:

Beautiful restoration on the WT Bob.

[Joe Chritz]

Old iron tools are cool. All the reason you need right there.

A full overhaul is a big project though and if you need the piece now it may be better to pick up a new one. If you got the time go for it.

Joe

[john frank]

Another recommendation for the Powermatic. Just because its built much better isn't the only reason to. Another is that I hate the thought of buying anything from a chinese factory. Old or new american iron is the only way I buy any equipment anymore.

[Brian Clevenger]

I've been looking for a model 81 for years. I would choose it over just about any saw ever made, but that's just me.

[Bill Huber]

You can get a manual from here.

http://www.ozarkwoodworker.com/item/powermatic-20-band-saw-model-81-operatingparts-man/

Good Luck, I would go with the PM...

[Rob Will]

Another recommendation for the Powermatic. Just because its built much better isn't the only reason to. Another is that I hate the thought of buying anything from a chinese factory. Old or new american iron is the only way I buy any equipment anymore.

Me too. I'm trying to buy only American iron for my shop.
Powermatic, Yates American, Walker Turner, Moak, American, Timesavers, Oneida, Curtis Compressor..........

Rob

[Brian Clevenger]

Me too. I'm trying to buy only American iron for my shop.
Powermatic, Yates American, Walker Turner, Moak, American, Timesavers, Oneida, Curtis Compressor..........

Rob

And I as well. I made the mistake of buying cheap China when I first started outfitting. I got lucky on some horse trading and now have some fine tools to be proud of. Here is my quick list. I'll try to revisit this post after I take some pictures.

My American Collection:

1938 Delta 10" band saw. This saw is almost mint, and my pride.

1947 Delta/Milwaukee 14" band saw. She is a daily user.

1967-1971ish 10" Rockwell/Delta turret RAS. Great saw. A keeper.

1970 Powermatic 1050 VS drill press. Was there ever a better 15" DP?

1981 Powermatic 60 8" jointer. Almost mint from the original owner. Complete with manuals, bill of sale, custom denim cover, custom mobile base. All from a retired industrial arts teacher who called her his "baby".

1996 Powermatic 66 table saw. I feel like I saved this saw from an undeserving owner. I paid $1000 for a saw that was barely used, except as a bar-top for beer cans. After it was loaded, I told the owner that he never deserved to have the saw in the first place.

I don't want to get too much of a trend started. I don't need competition on finding gems in my area. :D

[George Sanders]

I would jump on the PM. The quality of old iron is incomparable to imports. Old iron rules!

[Kirk Poore]

Get the Powermatic. If it's 3 phase, get a VFD for it. You won't look back.

Kirk

[Lewis Cobb]

There are actually a lot of factors to consider here. Don't mind me if I ramble.

What are the capacities of the 2 machines? How much tension can you create on each. Resawing requires an excessive amount of pressure/straightness. Some newer lower end band saws have a copressible spring, that won't give you the proper tension you need.
What kind of shape is the Powermatic in? As another mentioned old parts can be expensive if they are major parts that are not replaceable from other sources. Either that or have available Powermatic junk yards and I remember seeing a few. If the major arm has a crack in it, that may be something that is difficult to get right.
What is it worth? I bought an old Walker Turner 16" Band Saw, and fixed it up, although it worked properly from the start. It has a 3 phase motor in it as well, so a phase converter switch was installed on it. They say starting a 3 phase motor is the only time it is 3 phase. So I press in a red button, and hold it, then flip on the switch, it starts, and I release the red button. Phase converters are not as expensive as new motors, although a 3 phase motor only puts out 2/3rds of its rated horsepower when running on single phase electric. I still have all the power I need.
The feeling of old world cast iron refinished, and finely tuned is a unique feeling. It has that feeling of character. I am not basing new tools, I love them too. Here is the before and after of my 1948 Walker Turner Band Sawhttp://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/30466/2640645780100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/2789/2917692780100733997S600x600Q85.jpghttp://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/5382/2959895410100733997S600x600Q85.jpg


Bob - what's the secret to bringing back an old table to a finish like that ?

[Irvin Cooper]

Another thought is time.... I once considered an old iron bandsaw, but when I considered how much woodworking time would be spent restoring a bandsaw that I needed to be using, I couldnt justify it. I love the old iron as much as the next guy, and still believe in buying American at all costs (very hard to do these days), but I couldnt justify the time requirement when my time in the shop is so limited as it is.

Irv

[Joe Stallard]

I've read all the replies to your question of which bandsaw to purchase.:rolleyes: There is one more reason for the PM that I have not read, that is the resale value of each saw.:p The higher resale will go to the PM, especially if it is restored to it's glory days:)

[Ben West]

After reading the posts here, and reading about the PM 81 on the old woodworking machines site, I've decided to go with it. I'll definitely post here when I get it, and update everyone as I refurbish it.

The good news is that it is single phase. Although I may replace the motor with a 3 hp baldor at some point in the future, it is working and cutting now. My refurbishing effort can be done as time allows, while still using the saw.

Thanks for the advice!