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View Full Version : New garage shop - should I insulate it? Pictures.



Jerry Kim
02-17-2008, 8:27 AM
Hello all. Building a new house with a garage that will barely fit two cars. Going to make it into a shop with 1 car duty.

As you can see from the pictures, the walls are cinder blocks, floor is going to be concrete.

Should I ask my builder to put some 2x4's and insulate the walls?
Any ideas on what I should do for the floors?
I'm in northern NJ, near NYC.

Thanks much in advance.

http://okayfine.fastmail.net/ebay/garage.jpg

Michael Wildt
02-17-2008, 8:52 AM
Hi,

You may want to heat the shop in the winter and cool it in the summer. In both cases insulation can help you keep the temperature under control, even if you're not adding specific heat/cool equipment. Insulation can also help control noice to the rest of the house as well. Looks like you have living space ontop of the garage. If adding heating later, you should consider hydronic floor heat.

Of course you can always add it later, but it is way easier to get done now while the tools are out.

Michael

Sam Yerardi
02-17-2008, 8:54 AM
PUT IN THE STUDS AND INSULATE IT. If you don't you will regret it in the winter when you want to go out and work so bad it drives you nuts. I hate working in a cold shop. As far as the floor, my is only a concrete floor. For myself, I don't think that has really been much of a problem at all. I live in southern Ohio, and we get some very nasty cold weather. For me the biggest problme with a concrete floor is not the heat but standing on a hard surface for long periods of time. Myself, knowing what I know now, I would have spent money tp address that problme rather than trying to heat it. Obviously if you're pouring the floor you will insulate under the concrete pour but if you can afford to heat the floor I would consider it just as an added heat source. Keep in mind if you choose an electrically-heated floor the electric company will absolutely love you. Take it from an electrical engineer, electrical resistance heating, will eat you up in electric bills during the winter.

Larry Fox
02-17-2008, 8:56 AM
Jerry, I see that the floor has not been poured yet - if I were in your shoes I would look into some radiant floor heating. It will add to the cost to be sure but it might be worth it.

Oh, and I would definitely insulate the walls and I would install and insulate a ceiling as well.

IMHO, having a shop that is comfortable to work in temperature wise makes a world of diffference.

Scott Loven
02-17-2008, 9:03 AM
What is on the other side of the walls? Air, dirt, another house? I live in Iowa, have a basement shop with no insulation in the walls and feel comfortable working in the winter. I would ask for an insulated garage door with weather stripping on the sides and top. If you are going to put up studs and a wall any way I would insulate it.

Steve Bishop
02-17-2008, 9:27 AM
Insulating now would just save you the trouble in the future.
Our garage looks similar to yours, living space above and to the sides, it’s not heated or insulated. Also my wife's car must get into her half of the shop during the winter.

This past winter I found the garage got to cold to do any finishing or gluing in.
Once the cement floor gets cold it’s just about impossible to get the garage above 50.
Just about the time I get it warmed up, my wife comes home and opens the garage door :)

So I have several stacks of projects just waiting for spring so they can be finished.

One other thing to think about is condensation, when the weather gets warmer anything that is still cold (think cast iron and cement floor) is going to get a layer of moisture on it.

Steve

Peter Quinn
02-17-2008, 9:55 AM
I would definitely insulate the walls and ceiling. I would not use stud wall/fiberglass bats against masonry ever..this will lead to mold eventually. Better off with 2"-3" EXP (extruded polyurathane-the blue stuff), highest r-value per inch so you loose less space and wont trap moisture. This MUST be covered with sheet rock (as it represents a serious fire danger if uncovered) typically attached to firring strips anchored to wall, puting all organic material away from direct contact with masonry.

Ceiling must be covered with 5/8" fire rated rock for a garage below living space anyway, would definitely insulate the ceiling and consider adding resiliant sound isolation channels to framing to keep shop noise out of living space.

Heat is a good call, and radiant in the slab if it isn't poured yet while more expensive to install initially is cheaper to operate and the most comfortable. You could have the pex installed initially then add the heater/controls later when budget allows. Often depends on what is in your home, though a small sealed combustion direct vent gas unit could easily be used for a single zone in the garage. Central HVAC systems have the potential to recirculate shop dust into living space but might be better if your shop use is very intermittent/occasional, as radiant has a long recovery time and really needs to operate continuously. I have seen single zone forced air over hot water (modine) used effectively for garage shop heat as the recovery time is very quick (15min). Get an insulated garage door in any event.

James Biddle
02-17-2008, 9:58 AM
The builder should insulate the empty ceiling and back wall cavities as part of his original bid as those are part of the living area. Get a price on upgrading to an insulated door. Have him do that if the price is reasonable.

Do you know if the masons poured styrofoam insulation into the block cavities? If so, you may want to wait until next winter to check the need for additional insulation. I'd also wait and put up the 2x4 walls myself after I moved in for two reasons; to save money, and to take my time to decide on the complete tool and electrical layout. Makes no sense to cover the walls and panel before running the electrical and then have to fight it later.

Keep in mind that all the insulation in the world will only help keep in what heat you add to the space. You may want to have the garage prepped with a gas line/exhaust flue or electrical outlet now when it's easy.

Jim Becker
02-17-2008, 10:10 AM
I would certainly insulate the walls! I'd also consider having the floor poured flat, rather than sloped, despite the fact that you do intend to put a car in your shop, err...garage.

James makes a good point about doing the walls yourself later. It's likely less expensive (if you have the time) and you'll be able to deal with your electrical needs much easier including avoiding a surface mount situation.

David G Baker
02-17-2008, 10:16 AM
I am a firm believer in putting as much insulation in a structure as will fit or you can afford, especially during the building phase. I would put 2 inch foam board under the slab floor if you are not going to install in floor heating, this will stop or slow down the cold from migrating into the slab when the ground freezes along outside walls. The insulation will also help control the amount of moisture that condenses on your equipment causing rust.
The insulation is important in almost all climates from Florida to the Yukon. IMHO

Ron Coleman
02-17-2008, 11:05 AM
I'm looking at your picture and there is one thing that bugs me a little. I can't tell from the picture if you have a basement or just a crawl space under that part of the house but I assume the floor joist we are seeing under the wall framing is resting on a foundation wall. Make sure when they pour the floor that they leave a large gap between the framing and the concrete.

This is a perfect place for termite entry at some future date. Nothing better than a path from the soil to the wood framing that is out of sight and hidden. I've seen too many cases where concrete is poured next to framing causes problems years down the road.

I wouldn't even put foam insulation next to the framing. If it were mine I'd add a sheetmetal termite shield under the joist to the inside and extend it well above the concrete level on the outside.

Termites just love paths of entry that are a short walk from their house to your house.

Rick Gifford
02-17-2008, 11:11 AM
Jerry looks like you have a strong consensus to install insulation.

I didnt put insulation in my building at first, but now have. The difference in climate control is worlds apart now. Your in NJ with some nice cold weather. Insulation would be a 100% yes for me.

Like suggested before, do the studding and insulating yourself. Save some money you can spend on tools instead!

Eric Haycraft
02-17-2008, 11:35 AM
I am in a townhouse, so I recognize that style of garage. If you are sandwiched between two other townhouses, don't bother insulating - you will just be throwing money away. Also, 8" of width lost may not sound like a lot, but you will notice it in a garage like that and not in a good way.

You will be amazed how warm a townhouse garage stays even without heat. Just make sure that any wall that is truly outside (not against someone else's garage) gets insulated. Also, a good quality insulated garage door is a must. Make sure to inquire about the r value of the door because many door companies will pass off an r-3 or worse and call it 'insulated'.

Bryan Berguson
02-17-2008, 11:42 AM
Jerry, I see that the floor has not been poured yet - if I were in your shoes I would look into some radiant floor heating. It will add to the cost to be sure but it might be worth it.

Oh, and I would definitely insulate the walls and I would install and insulate a ceiling as well.

IMHO, having a shop that is comfortable to work in temperature wise makes a world of diffference.

This is excellant advice. Radiant heat is super and it's never in your way.

Bryan

Victor Stearns
02-17-2008, 6:47 PM
I will chime in that you can insulate and run wiring later and will likely save you some $$. I would however add radiant floor heat prior to having the floor poured. You do not have to connect the tubing right away. This type of heating will also aid in the heating of the house.
Victor

Rich Souchek
02-17-2008, 7:30 PM
I would let the builder finish his work, then do my work.
First step for me would be to put up a wall with big opennings to partition off the wife car side. I would insulate that wall and have several 4' wide doors there.
Replace the gargae door with something insulated and weatherproofed.
Then add a dedicated electrical sub pannel to the shop. Add plenty of wall sockets about 4'-6" up from the floor, and also several in the ceiling. Then would come the lighting, probably 4' flourencent lights, perhaps 6 to 8 of them.
Then would come the dust collection system and piping. My expereince is without this, I would not be spending the time in the shop. This should be considered a requirement.
Then, I would put 1/2" plywood or OSB on the studs that separate the house section from the shop section, using square drive screws. This lets me hang heavy stuff righ on the wall.
Make any sense?
Rich S.

Michael N Taylor
02-17-2008, 8:07 PM
The best way to insulate the block is to get a company to foam fill it, you will get a better r value and it seals any air leaks. It should be cheaper than furring the walls and insulating them then covering them wit some type of material.

John Fricke
02-17-2008, 9:30 PM
Absolutely positively install vapor barrier under floor.

Pat Germain
02-17-2008, 10:06 PM
Just about the time I get it warmed up, my wife comes home and opens the garage door :)

Oh, dude, we live in the same world! :p

I just read that quote to my wife and she also laughed because she knows she does that to me constantly.

Jerry Kim
02-18-2008, 11:09 AM
Thanks everyone for your replies.
More info :

The rest of my house is getting baseboards for heat. Any reason to do not to baseboards again? Many of you suggested radiant hydronic floor heat, but would that just heat up a thick layer of ground underneath the garage and waste a lot of energy?

I thought about doing the 2x4's and insulation by myself later, but the builder is very reasonable with his prices. I'll let you guys know what he quotes me.

The house is a side-by-side duplex, so to the right is another unit, to the right is the exterior, to the back is my basement, below the basement is a sub-basement, and to above is another two floors of living space. I'm pretty sure the builder is going to apply fire-rated insulation on top of the garage (which would also be the floor of the living room)

Jerry Kim
02-18-2008, 11:15 AM
I'm looking at your picture and there is one thing that bugs me a little. I can't tell from the picture if you have a basement or just a crawl space under that part of the house but I assume the floor joist we are seeing under the wall framing is resting on a foundation wall. Make sure when they pour the floor that they leave a large gap between the framing and the concrete.

This is a perfect place for termite entry at some future date. Nothing better than a path from the soil to the wood framing that is out of sight and hidden. I've seen too many cases where concrete is poured next to framing causes problems years down the road.

I wouldn't even put foam insulation next to the framing. If it were mine I'd add a sheetmetal termite shield under the joist to the inside and extend it well above the concrete level on the outside.

Termites just love paths of entry that are a short walk from their house to your house.


Ron, not sure exactly what you mean. Are you talking about leaving a gap between the concrete floor and the wall framing as indicated by the arrows ? Thanks.

http://okayfine.fastmail.net/ebay/garage1.jpg

Ron Coleman
02-18-2008, 1:55 PM
You got it. If they pour the concrete tight up against the framing or whatever they sheath the wall with, there will be a nice hidden path from the soil under the concrete to the exposed framing a few inches away. Sure would be nice to have an inch or two gap for inspection.

Little hidden paths are all it takes, even gaps as small a 1/64 inch are an entry point. Stucco exteriors is popular around us and more than one house gets termites when the builders carry the stucco down over the framing and foundation and end it below the soil line. Those little suckers will find the smallest crack or gap and get up behind the stucco and start eating dinner.


Ron, not sure exactly what you mean. Are you talking about leaving a gap between the concrete floor and the wall framing as indicated by the arrows ? Thanks.


http://okayfine.fastmail.net/ebay/garage1.jpg

Bill White
02-18-2008, 3:35 PM
Yep!! Insulate as others have said. Now, My shop is +- 370 sq. ft. Insulated walls and ceiling. Living in N. Mississippi is not the ice box of the South, but we do get into the teens this time of year. I heat with elec. oil filled radiators. Granted 17 x 22 x 9 is not a monster shop, but it sure stays toasty. On the coldest days I will turn on a second unit. Have had no moisture probs either. Trick is to keep it somewhat warm all the time, and turn up the heat for a bit when you will be in the shop for a period of time.
Ditto on the termite issue. Ya sure don't want any of those critters.
Bill

Greg Pavlov
02-19-2008, 2:55 AM
Insulating would also cut down on the noise transmitted from the shop, which might be a good thing to do in a condo complex.