Floats & Info

[Michael Faurot]

I've made a few wooden planes in the Krenov style and now I'm contemplating making some where the plane body gets hollowed out. I''m looking for info on floats and a book or DVD to help me out.

I'd like to buy a float or two, as I have no interest in trying to make them myself, but I'm not sure which one(s) to get first or from whom. I'm aware of two sources for floats. The first being Clark & Williams (http://www.planemaker.com/planemakers_floats.html) and the second is St. James Bay (http://www.stjamesbaytoolco.com/newproducts.html). I'm also aware that Lie-Nielsen (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=534) sell these, but it's my understanding they're actually selling the floats made by Clark & Williams--but I may be wrong about that. So, from Clark & Williams (or Lie-Nielsen), what would be the first must have type of float to get, with the possibility of getting a second, depending on budget? From St. James Bay, which would be better to get the regular set, or the skewed set, and what's the difference?

I've got a copy of the book Wooden Planes and How to Make Them (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=45260&cat=1,46096,46107&ap=1) by David G. Perch and Robert S. Lee but the authors' approach to this topic is a bit too minimalist for me. Or to put it another way, I think I'll need to come back to this one after I've got some more experience. So I'd like to find a better book or ideally a DVD that covers this topic. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

[Barry Vabeach]

Michael, I am not sure what type of plane you want to make. If you want to make a molding plane or other side escapement plane, floats can be pretty useful and the Todd Herli DVD is excellent http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=AQ-1020V
. I believe there is a newer dvd on side escapment planes but I don't know anything about it. I made the two floats mentioned by Herli and they worked fine. Barry

[Pam Niedermayer]

OTOH, if you plan to build a normally sized plane like a smoother, you don't need any floats.

Pam

[Matt Bickford]

Pam, I think that floats are used in nearly every aspect of building a smoother in the manner that Michael intends. They are used for the mouth, bed and walls. Several of them are used.

Michael, Larry Williams just starred in a new action movie "making traditional side escapement planes." This does not directly cover making a smoother, but would help. If you're looking to make a side escapement plane, I can't imagine needing another source to get started.

The floats that Clark & Williams sells are produced by Lie Nielsen with heavy input in design from Clark & Williams. I have several of these, they meet expectations.

[Michael Faurot]

Michael, I am not sure what type of plane you want to make. If you want to make a molding plane or other side escapement plane, floats can be pretty useful. . .


Yes. :)

In other words, I want to try my hand at all different types, molding/side-escapement being just one of the many types I'm interested in.



. . . and the Todd Herli DVD is excellent http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=AQ-1020V
.
Thanks for the tip on that DVD.



I made the two floats mentioned by Herli and they worked fine.
While I admit, I don't know what all would be involved in making my own floats, I pretty much loathe metal working. At the St. James Bay (http://www.stjamesbaytoolco.com/newproducts.html) site they mention their floats are "Made to the shape of the pair in the Tod Herrli video." So it sounds like I could get my floats there and not have to make any and as an added bonus they'd correspond to Herrli's video Hollows & Rounds. However, St. James Bay offers two different sets. Which of those two sets did you wind up making and/or would you suggest?

Also, for the iron that would be needed to go with a molding plane, do you have any experience with the tappered molding plane iron blanks (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=548) sold by Lie-Nielsen?

Thanks.

[Michael Faurot]

Pam, I think that floats are used in nearly every aspect of building a smoother in the manner that Michael intends. They are used for the mouth, bed and walls. Several of them are used.
...
The floats that Clark & Williams sells are produced by Lie Nielsen with heavy input in design from Clark & Williams. I have several of these, they meet expectations.

Ideally, I'd just order all of the ones that are sold by Lie-Nielsen and go to town--but I can't really afford that. :) I'd like to get one or two to start and then add more later as needed. So which one or two do you think would be the best to start with?



Michael, Larry Williams just starred in a new action movie "making traditional side escapement planes." This does not directly cover making a smoother, but would help. If you're looking to make a side escapement plane, I can't imagine needing another source to get started.
Thanks for the tip, I'll look for that.

[Tony Joyce]

I have both the Herli DVD & Williams DVD. Herli's seemed better to me IMHO. I made an edge float as per Herli's instructions and it works very well. This was before Lie-Nielsen introduced theirs. I also bought the Lie-Nielsen edge float(3/16" Push) and side float(Push). I can buy them cheaper than I can make them. The floats are a must for making side escapement planes. I have not tried the plane irons from Lie yet. So far I've made my own irons from 1/8" O-1 as per instructions in both DVD's.

Tony

[Leif Hanson]

Ideally, I'd just order all of the ones that are sold by Lie-Nielsen and go to town--but I can't really afford that. :) I'd like to get one or two to start and then add more later as needed. So which one or two do you think would be the best to start with?

Thanks for the tip, I'll look for that.

The best deal, and the first two to get would be the side float and the bed float, in that order - but you also will need an edge float. The side float will allow you to get into the shoulder, and can be used as a bed float to some extent if you don't have one - but having one is much better. For edge floats, those are easy enough to make yourself...

http://norsewoodsmith.com/node/18

Note at the time I wrote what's in that link above, floats were difficult to find, if you could find them at all... filing teeth in the face of a bed or side float by hand is not an easy task, so for the $40-$50 LN charges for one it is well worth it. An edge float is easier, and can be made out of just about any flat steel stock that's 1/8" - 3/16" thick with a file, if you have it laying around... But really, the LN prices are quite reasonable for these things if you are going to be making a number of planes for yourself. Krenov style planes are usually laminated though - so floats aren't as necessary for that style of plane...

Leif

[Michael Faurot]

The best deal, and the first two to get would be the side float and the bed float, in that order - but you also will need an edge float.


Okay, if having a side, bed and edge float together will make things easier, I'm all for that.

A couple of questions:
1) Regarding the bed float. At the Lie-Nielsen site, it says the following about the two bed floats (1/8" and 3/16"):


Bed floats are used for fitting the iron to the bed of the plane. The 1/8-inch (3.17mm) is best for this, the 3/16" (4.7mm) is great for trimming and final surfacing of chamfers and other work.

Would you agree, that the 1/8" would be better to have first? That seems counter intuitive to me. I would think 3/16" would be better as it is a little wider and would be more suitable since it would remove more material per pass.


2) Regarding the edge float. Similar question, which would be better to get first, the 1/8" or 3/16"?

Filing teeth in the face of a bed or side float by hand is not an easy task, so for the $40-$50 LN charges for one it is well worth it.
I'm really not interested in making them myself, so I'm fine with paying for them, I just need to know which ones to get first, as I can't afford all of them.

Thanks.

[Don Pierson]

I am happy the the LN's. I use them more than I would have guessed. I use then where I would have used a file and/or a rasp. The float leaves a more polished surface. I use them in making hand cut straight dovetails and twisted dovetail joints. What ever you buy also buy the right file to sharpen them. The LN's really need sharpening when you get them out of the shipping box.

[Wiley Horne]

Michael,

You may already have a triangular (three-square) file you can sharpen the floats with. If you don't, get the one LN recommends. In my opinion, it's not optional. I have two of the joinery floats, and they are excellent edge tools, but do need an initial sharpening.

Wiley

[Leif Hanson]

Would you agree, that the 1/8" would be better to have first? That seems counter intuitive to me. I would think 3/16" would be better as it is a little wider and would be more suitable since it would remove more material per pass.

Well - this is all in my experience, and there are far more qualified people out there - but IMO the instructions LN gives are good... It depends a bit on what type of planes you are making.

For most bench planes, the 1/8" bed float is definitely better to have first - it's where you are filing through the mouth that the thickness becomes critical. It's the single most important part of the plane, and the thicker the float is, the wider the mouth has to be... so fine tuning is better with the 1/8" and the 3/16" is more rigid, and better for general work where you want to remove more material, but it's more limiting when it comes to final tuning. For me, it would be the 1/8" first by a mile.



2) Regarding the edge float. Similar question, which would be better to get first, the 1/8" or 3/16"?That's a bit of a toss-up I think - probably the 1/8" if you are going to be working with smaller side-escapement planes. On those planes, the width of the blade at the top is only about 1/4" or less - so the 1/8" gives you a little more room to work, whereas the 3/16" is more crowded - but that isn't an issue on bench planes or wider molding planes, as you usually have much more room to work in - in fact you might even want the wider to fit more to make it more uniform. For the first one, I would get the 1/8", but YMMV.

If you are considering side escapement planes, the side float and edge float probably come first, and get both in 1/8" thickness... but again really, all three styles are very handy to have.

For push or pull - push is more natural to me, but YMMV. There are instances when because of tearout, it would be nice to have a pull style.

[Michael Faurot]

Michael,

You may already have a triangular (three-square) file you can sharpen the floats with. If you don't, get the one LN recommends. In my opinion, it's not optional. I have two of the joinery floats, and they are excellent edge tools, but do need an initial sharpening.




What ever you buy also buy the right file to sharpen them. The LN's really need sharpening when you get them out of the shipping box.


Thank-you Don and Wiley. I found the info on Lie-Nielsen's site about how to sharpen the floats and LN's recommendation to use a six inch double extra slim taper file. (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=files) I'll definitely get one of those when I make my initial order of plane maker's floats.

[Michael Faurot]

For most bench planes, the 1/8" bed float is definitely better to have first...
...
For me, it would be the 1/8" first by a mile.

[Edge Floats]
For the first one, I would get the 1/8", but YMMV.




If you are considering side escapement planes, the side float and edge float probably come first, and get both in 1/8" thickness... but again really, all three styles are very handy to have.
Sounds good--1/8" it is. :)

I want to do all different types of planes, but I suspect I'll be starting with a side escapement as that appears to be the topic of the Tod Herlrli video Hollows & Rounds, which has been recommended several times in this thread. I'm sure I'll eventually wind up getting all the different floats, but starting with the 1/8" sizes sounds like the way to go.



For push or pull - push is more natural to me, but YMMV. There are instances when because of tearout, it would be nice to have a pull style.I figured I'd go with a push side float since the bed and edge floats are both push as well.

I think I've got my shopping list figured out now. From Lie-Nielsen I'll get the 1/8" bed float, 1/8" edge float, push style side float, 6" double extra slim taper file, and two or three of the tapered molding plane blanks. Then I'll pick up a copy of the Herrli Hollows & Rounds DVD.

Thanks for all your suggestions, and thanks to every one else that has made suggestions.

[Matt Bickford]

Tony, why did you buy the Williams DVD if you already had the Herli DVD? I thought they each discussed a similar topic. Was something missing from it? What kind of planes have you made? Let's see some pictures... (I assume you had the Herli first just because it has been out much longer, same questions if you had the Williams DVD first, however.)

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam, I think that floats are used in nearly every aspect of building a smoother in the manner that Michael intends. They are used for the mouth, bed and walls. Several of them are used....

Matt, sorry to disabuse your notions; but I've built several Japanese plane dai, nary a float in sight. They work great, read through shavings, all that good stuff.

Pam

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I've built several Japanese plane dai, nary a float in sight... Pam"

I also have made many planes with no floats... just sharp chisels and knives. But I can see where they would be useful....

YM

[Matt Bickford]

I have carved 30-40 ft of beading on a set of chairs with a bench chisel and a screw, but I wouldn't recommend it to somebody who was looking to make/buy a scratch stock.

[Leif Hanson]

One option is to use planemaker Bill Carter's method of cutting off a chisel square and hardening it -

http://www.handplane.com/archives/96

http://homepage.mac.com/davewe/PhotoAlbum2.html

You could do this with a file too, I think... I've used files in place of floats, too, BTW...

Leif

[Tony Joyce]

Matt,
I bought Williams DVD, because I wanted as much info as I could get on moulding planes. Yes, I had Herli's first. Larry's DVD is slower paced and includes a few more details. At present I've only made one side bead plane, I'm planning to make a set to use for furniture mouldings. I probably enjoy making the plane more than I will using it. I really enjoy figuring out how to make them ie: research, drawings, etc. Larry's DVD is thorough but I'll probably sell it.

81997

81998

81999

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/woodmolds/Plane/Plane005Large.jpg%5B/IMG%5D

[Matt Bickford]

Very cool.

[Pam Niedermayer]

"...I've built several Japanese plane dai, nary a float in sight... Pam"

I also have made many planes with no floats... just sharp chisels and knives. But I can see where they would be useful....

YM

Add an osahiki (small saw for cutting the abutments) for me. I have to say, there was no deprivation in doing this, it was all natural and very fast. Floats are very handy for small molding, hollow, and round planes; but highly overrated for larger planes, simply unnecessary.

Pam

[Michael Faurot]

Larry's DVD is thorough but I'll probably sell it.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t128/woodmolds/Plane/Plane005Large.jpg%5B/IMG%5D

I just ordered the Tod Herrli video today to get things started, but having that Larry Williams DVD as well couldn't hurt. So if you want to sell that DVD--I'd be glad to relive you of that burden. :)