Hide Glue hiding?

[David Martino]

Anyone know a good source/brand for hide glues? I wanted to give them a try after reading a few posts here and seeing the article in FWW 197. Steve Wargo mentions one made by Liberon I haven't been able to find:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=20844&page=3

Appreciate any thoughts or tips... how do you heat it, store it, open time, etc. Sounds like it has some plusses but requires a bit more "know-how." Thanks,

Dave

[Eddie Darby]

Lee Valley tools sell hide glue.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20002&cat=1,110,42965

Some people have a hard time working with this glue, so I would recommend buying only a small quantity at the start.

[harry strasil]

I prefer the hide glue that comes in bottles in a liquid form, no smell easy to use and if I need more or less instant tack like some of the newer resin glues, I just heat it in my little double boiler glue pot, which makes it take quickly and dry faster.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/gluepot.jpg

[Joel Ficke]

Oldemill sells quite a few varieties. I use the 192 gram strength hide glue for most applications. If you need lots of open time, their fish glue works pretty well.

[Leif Hanson]

I don't know about where to get Liberon brand - I think that woodfinishupply.com may sell it... but I don't have experience with that company. There are several sources of good quality granular hide glue, though...

Behlen's is good glue - it's 256 gram strength, so it's open time is a little less than 192 gram strength glue. It's available at Stewart McDonald (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Glues,_adhesives/Wood_glue/Behlen_Ground_Hide_Glue.html), Woodcraft and The Best Things (http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/hide_glue.htm). 192 gram stength is more general purpose, 256 is stronger for general casework, and is better for rub-joints and the like.

A good range of hide glues is available at toolsforworkingwood.com (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HIDEGL.XX&Category_Code=) - this is where I would recommend you get yours at... I don't have any experience with oldemill.com (http://www.oldemill.com/store/index.php/cPath/36) but it looks like they have a good selection.

I think a large majority of granular hide glues in the US come from the same supplier...

Edit - there is a Liberon "Pearl" glue available at WoodCraft - it's a form of hide glue...

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=5526

[Stephen Jackson]

Harry, that's a neat little glue-pot. Are they available as is, or have you adapted something else?

[harry strasil]

my first wife found it in an antique mall for I think a couple of bucks

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I spent some months studying hide glues in comparison to other glues.

What I concluded was that it's really not that great a glue. It is OK for laminating a veneer (because it gels fast and doesn't wet through) or the fret-board of a guitar (because it can be released with reasonably little heat). It is also nice for production setting of reinforcing glue blocks where you want the thing to take the glue to gell and adhere fast letting yo move on to the next piece.

However, it is not so strong as Titebond nor as reliable by far as Titebond. Moisture ruins it after set up & cure, temperature at time of application matters a lot, and the mix is finicky producing unreliable results.

Later on during another of my "perfect" glue quests I almost became a Resourcinol fan but for, a well written test & report that compared it to Titebond and the Resourcinol wasn't as strong by a wide measure. My own work wit the stuff proves it to be a royal PITA to work with needing very high clamping pressures and won't set up bellow 70Deg F. It does however have good gap filling properties and mixes with wood flour very well.


Epoxy is probably better than Titebond (even III) in a lot of wet applications and especially those where you need strong gap filling, Resourcinol is best if your joints are going to be heated such as in a dark painted or dark wood ships mast in the tropics where the sun's heat will build up, or a hot plate that will hold hot vessels for extended periods.


However, for conventional furniture I'd rely on Titebond or a good industrial PVA. Less muss less fuss and very reliable.

[michael osadchuk]

Anyone know a good source/brand for hide glues? I wanted to give them a try after reading a few posts here and seeing the article in FWW 197. Steve Wargo mentions one made by Liberon I haven't been able to find:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=20844&page=3

Appreciate any thoughts or tips... how do you heat it, store it, open time, etc. Sounds like it has some plusses but requires a bit more "know-how." Thanks,

Dave


Check out this thread with Bob Smalser, focussing on reversability of hide glue joints.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21822&highlight=repair+glue

I used some raw hide glue for the first time a few months ago to add some long wood trim strips to solid wood and plywood edges on a bed project. Some of the 1" wide trim strips were quite long - 5-6 feet and I was concerned the glue would cool/jell too quickly to allow mating of the surfaces but it wasn't a problem. I very much like the characteristic that the dried glue won't stain a finish and excess/squeezed out glue flakes away very easily from a finish when dried.

I will use it again

good luck

michael

[Leif Hanson]

Here's some reading...

http://www.player-care.com/hide_q-a.html

http://www.player-care.com/hideglue.html

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.org/2005/hideglue.shtml

http://www.windsorchairresources.com/tips/tipglue.html

http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec.net/chats/chat_edwards_11108.shtml

[Bob Smalser]

Hide glue works best on joints that will eventually require repair. Like chair joints and round tenon joints that fail every 30 years or so. It's easily renewed with heat and more glue.

Glue strength is meaningless as all of them are stronger than the wood they glue.

Otherwise why not try UF Plastic Resin Glue like Weldwood or Dap. Easier to use than hide glue, long open time, zero creep, and best of all a clean, easily-sanded glue line. I have 20 or so pieces of heirloom furniture in my house dating from the 1960's assembled with UF resin and haven't has a failure or creep yet. But any of those crossgrain glue joints could eventually fail from seasonal movement and UF resin joints can be broken apart and reglued, just not as easy as hide glue.

Titebond and other PVA's are a disaster in heirloom furniture, and their use limited to short-lived items like kitchen cabinets. If the joint ever breaks it can't be repaired because unlike other glues, nothing useful sticks to Titebond residue. PVA's creep under load and PVA squeezeout blotches staining attempts so badly you should finish the piece before assembly. You won't have any of those problems with either hide glue or UF resin. Resorcinol is for boats to be painted, not furniture, as it has the ugliest glue line of them all.

Last, if you have gaps to fill you should use epoxy with a high-adhesive thickener like cabosil. Aerodux and Aerolite are resorcinol and UF resin glues made in the UK that fill gaps, but no US-made resorcinol or UF resins does that well by mixing it with wood flour. Especially if you are concerned about strength. With all glues, follow the manufacturer's instructions or you are setting yourself up for a fall.

[Tony Zaffuto]

You've said it best Bob: there's more to glue than just sticking! I've tested the waters with pre-mixed hide glue last year and several months ago I set up a hot pot and bought the raw hide glue from Tools for Working Wood.

Glue is not an excuse for sloppy joints. I would personally try some pre-mix hide glue first--I never tried titebond, but I did use Patrick's Old Brown glue (also from TFWW). See how you like it but remember to concentrate on your fit and where you can test the fit before glue up.

T.Z.

[Steve Schoene]

By the way, you don't need to go searching the antique malls or paying over $100 for a glue pot. A "crock-pot" slow cooker does the job just fine. Mix your glue in a glass jar, set it in a water bath in the crock pot to heat. When you are done the jar can be capped and go in the fridge to extend it's life.

[Sam Yerardi]

Also, I've seen people use a baby bottle warmer. Much cheaper than the $100 pots. Myself, every morning when I warm up the shop I put a bowl of water on the heater and use that to warm my glue. Works like a champ.

I agree 100% with Bob Smalzer. There's more to glue than just being something indestructable. If antiques were assembled with epoxy, etc. eventually there would be no more antiques because we would destroy them in the process of trying to repair them. Hide glue is tops on my list for what it is meant for. Other glues have their applications as well.

[Leif Hanson]

By the way, you don't need to go searching the antique malls or paying over $100 for a glue pot. A "crock-pot" slow cooker does the job just fine. Mix your glue in a glass jar, set it in a water bath in the crock pot to heat. When you are done the jar can be capped and go in the fridge to extend it's life.

Yup... I use an old Rival Hot Pot Express, which can be bought new for about $12 - or I've found one in a thrift store for $1:

http://norsewoodsmith.com/drupal/files/image/hideglue/img_2109.jpg

http://norsewoodsmith.com/node/106

The only critical requirement is it be able to heat water to 145 degrees and hold it at that temp - so it's best if it has a dial to adjust the temp...

Leif

[David Martino]

...for all the good info. and links, everyone.

I was looking for that long thread started by Bob Smalser but for some reason it wouldn't turn up in the search yesterday. I'm totally unfamiliar with the U/F glues but will check out Weldwood or the other brand. Think I'll also experiment with the TWW hide glue - it's the one recommended by F. Patrick Edwards in the FWW article and apparently has the dual advantages of not smelling bad and coming from somewhere in upstate New York (like me) (well, at least the second one). There's an old crock pot in the back of a cupboard here somewhere so it won't cost much to find out if it's as messy as it looks...

Another good day at Sawmill U.

[Mark Berenbrok]

I got five pounds of hide glue from Bjorn Enterprises (Bjorn.net) in Charlotte NC about ten years ago and still have plenty left. The owner is a wealth of information and can set you up with the correct grade to match your needs. I'm using 164 # grade, which is the general purpose stuff. It's not hard to use and you can add some urea to extend the tack time. Give it a try.

If you have dogs in the house, keep the glue out of their reach. DAMHIKT.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Tools for Working Wood sells dry hide glue as well.

[Steve Wargo]

Real hide glue is much different than liquid hide glue. Liquid hide glue takes forever and a day to dry (but works great to make filler). I buy my liberon from some place I found online in California. The Liberon doesn't smell bad at all. Good luck and PM me if you can't find it. I haven't bought any in a while (usually buy large quantities of things) but can probably dig up an receipt. Hope this helps

[Lee Stehly]

tools for working wood sells the best glue you can get in small batches. 1 lbs bag or 5 lbs. stay away from the pearl stuff. they also sell patrick edwards glue which you don't need to heat that much (a hot water bath). it contains urea which keeps it liquid at room temperature. about 30min open time. But urea weakens the protein bond so it has a shelf life and it seems to make it a bit more elastic. patrick's glue has a date stamp on it. It's one guy that makes the stuff. not a machine. you really can't beat the quality. DO NOT buy over the counter liquid hide glue. the other companies add urea and other junk. its a crap shoot if you get a fresh bottle. you want the stuff that comes in granular form. hide glue is really easy to use but if you have never used it before it is a nightmare and you will be swearing the stuff up and down. when the temp gets below 140 it starts to gel. That means for joints they will bind and not close. you can heat the joints with a heat gun to help with the "open time". if the pieces are small enough stick them in an oven for a few minutes to heat them up. large shops used to have rooms that they kept heated for this. but osha does not really want people working in 140+ degree rooms. hihi. i digress... you want the glue to be a touch thicker then maple syrup. the vermont stuff. really experiment with it a lot. once you get it you will not turn back. it does take some practice. to test the glue put a dab between your fingers and hold it together for about 30sec ish'. pull your fingers apart and you should see some nice glue hairs. the more "hairs" the better. an old guy told me that the longer you cook the glue the stronger it gets. hands down this is true! cook a pot of glue for 2-3 weeks and do the finger check. very very sticky glue! most places will tell you the opposite. glue gets weaker the longer you cook it. oh and you don't get glue spots in the finish. you can use hide glue and fine saw dust as a filler perfect match every time. even if you are staining the object. it's revisable. just add water and heat. you need both. so if you veneering and get a blister it's a very simple fix. i have never had anything returned because it fell apart.

i really like hide glue. i could rant for 10 pages about that stuff.

[Lee Stehly]

oh one more thing. as far as the set up for the glue the first thing to go is the heat. (gel stage) the second is evaporation. that means the water in the glue leaving the joint. don't mess with it for 24 hours. don't stress it for 72 hours. that's sanding it or knocking it around.

[Lee Stehly]

tools for working wood sells the best glue you can get in small batches. 1 lbs bag or 5 lbs. stay away from the pearl stuff. they also sell patrick edwards glue which you don't need to heat that much (a hot water bath). it contains urea which keeps it liquid at room temperature. about 30min open time. But urea weakens the protein bond so it has a shelf life and it seems to make it a bit more elastic. patrick's glue has a date stamp on it. It's one guy that makes the stuff. not a machine. you really can't beat the quality. DO NOT buy over the counter liquid hide glue. the other companies add urea and other junk. its a crap shoot if you get a fresh bottle. you want the stuff that comes in granular form. hide glue is really easy to use but if you have never used it before it is a nightmare and you will be swearing the stuff up and down. when the temp gets below 140 it starts to gel. That means for joints they will bind and not close. you can heat the joints with a heat gun to help with the "open time". if the pieces are small enough stick them in an oven for a few minutes to heat them up. large shops used to have rooms that they kept heated for this. but osha does not really want people working in 140+ degree rooms. hihi. i digress... you want the glue to be a touch thicker then maple syrup. the vermont stuff. really experiment with it a lot. once you get it you will not turn back. it does take some practice. to test the glue put a dab between your fingers and hold it together for about 30sec ish'. pull your fingers apart and you should see some nice glue hairs. the more "hairs" the better. an old guy told me that the longer you cook the glue the stronger it gets. hands down this is true! cook a pot of glue for 2-3 weeks and do the finger check. very very sticky glue! most places will tell you the opposite. glue gets weaker the longer you cook it. oh and you don't get glue spots in the finish. you can use hide glue and fine saw dust as a filler perfect match every time. even if you are staining the object. it's revisable. just add water and heat. you need both. so if you veneering and get a blister it's a very simple fix. i have never had anything returned because it fell apart.

i really like hide glue. i could rant for 10 pages about that stuff.

[Corvin Alstot]

I have had success with Old Brown Glue.
Wish I was a shareholder . .
Here is some info from their site. http://www.wpatrickedwards.com/gluepage.htm

The viscosity of Old Brown Glue is liquid at room temperature, and can easily be made thinner by heating or thicker by cooling as needed before application. The glue dries by loss of moisture and, under normal conditions, will be completely set in 24-48 hours.

Old Brown Glue is a true reversible wood glue, compatible with all existing animal glues. This makes it ideal for antique furniture restoration, veneer work, lamination and instrument repair. Each batch is dated on the label and has a one year shelf life under normal conditions.