Freud Ultimate Cutoff Blade Question

[Keith Starosta]

Something strange with my new cutoff blade.

I've been using my Hitachi C10FSH sliding compound miter saw with the stock Hitachi blade since I bought it three years ago. It has been a horse of a saw, and hasn't given me any trouble at all. I noticed that the stock blade was really starting to show some wear, after several sharpenings, so I put some thought into a new blade. I finally decided on the Freud LU85R010, 80T Ultimate Cutoff blade. The first thing I noticed about the Freud was the weight. It was much heavier than the stock Hitachi. This was even more evident after I mounted the blade and powered up the saw. I don't want to say that the saw bogged down, because that gives too negative a conotation to the situation. But it did feel like the blade was making the saw work harder, even when cutting through a regular pine 2x6. Is this normal? Should I notice a significant difference in the overall feel of the cut with this new Freud blade?

Thanks!!

- Keith

[Sean Kinn]

I noticed the same thing with my Dewalt miter saw when I switched from the Dewalt blade to the Freud Ultimate Cutoff.

[Jim O'Dell]

I'll be watching this thread. I just got the same saw, and the blade is ok for rough cuts, but leaves a little to be desired for cutting hard woods. My impression is that the stock Hitachi blade is a thin kerf blade. Is it possible that your Freud is a full kerf and that is making a difference? That was one of the marks in the plus column for the Makita, for me, when deciding which saw I wanted. The Hitachi is a 12 amp motor compared to the others that were 15 amps.
I guess the next question I would have, is does anyone make a thin kerf blade for the miter saw? The Freud I was looking at was the 91 series. I don't know what kerf it is.
Thanks for starting the thread. Hopefully others can steer us the right direction! Jim.

[Chris Brault]

I think it might be the tooth count???? I've got a Dewalt 12" CMS (15 amp) and two blades - a Hitachi 40 tooth - for faster cutting, not as smooth though---- and then a Freud 96 tooth----- ultra smooth cuts---- but noticeably bogs the motor down ,,,, especially on big cut,,,, not real noticeable on a 1X2 obviously.

[Peter Quinn]

I have a Makita 10" slider and the 60T stock blade cut through 2x and thicker stuff easier but was crap for finish quality trim cuts. I use the freud ultimate 80T cut off now and it puts a fine cut on trim and finished goods like crown, nearly a glass smooth edge but the saw definitely works harder in thicker materials. It also kicks back harder if the material has any bow that pinches the blade. It is a thin kerf, I dont think most 10" sliders can push a full kerf effectively. I atribute the difference not so much to the weight of the blade as the increased tooth count and hook geometry. That same setup that puts the glass smooth edge on trim slows down the feed rate considerably. Might be better of to get one blade with fewer teeth for framing lumber and save the ultimate for finished trim.

[glenn bradley]

Was your Hitachi blade thin kerf? Also, how many teeth? The Freud LU85R010 kerf is kinda thick compared to most TK blades and 80T is for fine x-cut work and so cuts slower than say a 40 or 50T blade. I run 80T Frued TK blades on the CMS and on the TS for x-cuts and really like them. I wouldn't want to work 2-by material on the CMS or rip hardwood on the TS with them though. I use other blades for that. HTH

[Vince Shriver]

I recently purchased an 80 tooth blade for my DeWalt CMS from Ridge Carbide (I like their blades). The guy helped my select the right blade, an RS11280. When I inquired about a 60 tooth blade, same 12 inch diameter, for $20 more, he explained that particular blade was designed for a radial arm saw and was much thicker, thus needing more power. The blade I bought is perfect in my DeWalt.

[Keith Starosta]

All very interesting responses, guys. Thanks!!

After posting, I went back out and played around a bit more. I did find that the slower I fed the blade into the wood, the less bogging-down I got. And as far as kickback is concerned....with a slightly bowed board....yeah, I saw that, too!! :rolleyes: I do, however, LOVE the glass-smooth finish this blade leaves. The kerf is definitely thicker than the stock Hitachi. I hadn't thought of that before. I'll be keeping this Freud blade, but I may also be looking into another for cross-cutting framing lumber and thicker stock.

Thanks again, Gents!!!

- Keith

[Randal Stevenson]

This blade IS a full kerf blade. It also has a positive hook angle, and I see it used on both the table saw and the compound miter saw, quite a bit. However, I would think you would want a negative hook angle for a SLIDING compound miter saw.

[Keith Starosta]

This blade IS a full kerf blade. It also has a positive hook angle, and I see it used on both the table saw and the compound miter saw, quite a bit. However, I would think you would want a negative hook angle for a SLIDING compound miter saw.

Thanks for the comments, Randal, but could you or someone else please explain why a negative hook angle would be better for a sliding compound miter saw? I'm sure it has something to do with physics, or one of those other science's that I never was very good at.... :rolleyes:

Thanks!

- Keith

[CPeter James]

YOU DO NEED A NEGATIVE HOOK!!!! I have the scar on my chin to prove it. I had a blade with a positive hook on my SCMS and it was grabby. It threw a cut off at me one day. I changed to a negative hook blade from Ridge and love it. Glass smooth cuts and no bogging down. Spend the big money and be happy with the results. Talk to John at Ridge.

http://www.ridgecarbidetool.com/

CPeter

[Peter Quinn]

Freud makes the ultimate cross cut blades in BOTH thin and full kerf formats. Mine IS thin kerf. Mine WILL climb like a mountain goat if the wood is even slightly bowed. Negative hook angle reduces the chance of climbing considerable, use them exclusively on 14" dewalt RAS. With the slider I take a series of light passes in harder materials to avoid this.

Freud and others (Amana, CMT, ridge carbide) make good 60T thin kerf negative hook angle fine cross cut blades that will serve general purpose work better than the Ultimate blade.

[Keith Starosta]

Two questions....

First, will the full kerf Frued Ultimate be better used in a table saw cross-cutting situation...with the use of a good sled?

Second, which one of the Ridge 10" blades has the negative hook, the RS11060 or the RS11080?


- Keith

[Peter Quinn]

Freud ultimate Full kerf blade is excellent in 2HP+ table saw with a sled for finish quality cuts. Thats really what its made for. I bought the thin kerf to use in both slider and bench top table saw occosaionally.

[John Thompson]

Good morning Keith.. I'm sure Charlie Mac from Freud will be along and explain, but Randall and CPeter have already nailed down your problem. You are using a full kerf blade in a large tooth count. That is a positive hook blade (more suited for TS.. not a SCMS or RAS) as the negative hook will help pin down the stock on a pull cut if you use one. The positive hook is a bit dangerous to use with a SCMS, especially so with a RAS.

The full kerf is going to slow your smaller than TS motor down and so is the larger tooth count. You have to feed slower with the larger count. I'm sure if Charlie Mac from Freud see's this, he will recommend the excellent Freud LU91R010 with 60 Tooth count. I used it for years on my 10" Hitachi and now use the 72 T LU91R012 on my 12" Hitachi which is equilavent with the 2" larger blade to the 10" 60 T.

Bottom line.. best to have a Thin Kerf on a SCMS with negative hook. The blade have is OK for standard miter saws, just slower with the tooth count and has a bit more aggressive positive hook than you need on a miter saw.

Regards...

Sarge..

[Keith Starosta]

Excellent! Thanks very much for your input!!

- Keith

[Vince Shriver]

Keith

Both the 11280 and the 11260 have a neg hook. The latter is designed for a radial arm saw whereas the 11280 (a lighter blade) is the one you want for a compound miter saw. Talk with the folks at Ridge, Freud, et al, when you order the blade and they will steer you in the right direction for you particular application and/or answer questions. It's their business; they're good at what they do and they are usually glade to be of assistance.

[John Thompson]

And if you do take Vince's advice and speak to someone at the blade manufacturer as he mentioned, be sure to tell them it is a SCMS and not just a miter saw!

You cannot make a pull cut on a standard miter saw and therefore can get away with a positive hook, but because the blade cuts on the upstroke as opposed to a TS that cuts on the downstroke.. you need slightly less hook as to not be too aggresive with that major difference..

Sarge..

[Charles McCracken]

...with my new cutoff blade.
Should I notice a significant difference in the overall feel of the cut with this new Freud blade?

- Keith


Keith,

The LU85R010 is a full kerf, 80T blade for glass smooth cuts in material 1-1/2" and thinner on Miter Saws and Table Saws (I'll address the hook angle/SCMS question a little further down). The number of teeth and the extra kerf will load the motor more than the stock blade so there will be more feed resistance. Unless this results in burning or seems to load the motor excessively you should be fine. We do offer a thin kerf version of that blade (LU74R010) which would feed a little easier and a 40T blade might be a good idea for easier cuts in thicker material.

[Charles McCracken]

The Freud I was looking at was the 91 series. I don't know what kerf it is.

Jim,

The LU91 is thin kerf with less teeth than the LU85 that Keith has. It ill not give the polished cut edge but is a little more versatile in the range of thickness because of the lower number of teeth.

[Charles McCracken]

YOU DO NEED A NEGATIVE HOOK!!!! I have the scar on my chin to prove it. I had a blade with a positive hook on my SCMS and it was grabby. It threw a cut off at me one day. I changed to a negative hook blade from Ridge and love it. Glass smooth cuts and no bogging down. Spend the big money and be happy with the results. Talk to John at Ridge.

http://www.ridgecarbidetool.com/

CPeter

CPeter,

Not picking on you but you were the first post to say this. Low and negative hook blades are generally recommended for SCMS because they reduce the tendency to lift the material off the saw table when pushing through on a slide cut (we offer from -0.5° to +10° for these saws). Once the cut is made the teeth are past the material, behind the fence and under the kerf board, so I struggle to see how the teeth could be responsible for throwing a cut off piece. The exceptions that I know of are when the piece is so narrow that it falls between the blade and the edge of the slot in the kerf board (it likely wouldn't matter what the hook angle is in this case) and if the cut off piece splits/fractures in the cut (in my experience a negative hook blade is just as likely to cause this as a positive hook). Also, if the saw head is held down until the blade stops turning (as is advised in every miter saw manual that I have read) there should be little chance of what you described. All power tools have inherent dangers and the SCMS is no exception. Safe practices are the best defense against injury. Before purchasing any saw blade you should check the user's manual for the saw to see what is recommended for the particular tool.

[John Thompson]

Keith,

The LU85R010 is a full kerf, 80T blade for glass smooth cuts in material 1-1/2" and thinner on Miter Saws and Table Saws (I'll address the hook angle/SCMS question a little further down). The number of teeth and the extra kerf will load the motor more than the stock blade so there will be more feed resistance. Unless this results in burning or seems to load the motor excessively you should be fine. We do offer a thin kerf version of that blade (LU74R010) which would feed a little easier and a 40T blade might be a good idea for easier cuts in thicker material.

Hey Charlie Mac...

I used a LU91R010 for years on my SCMS which gets all my cross-cuts as the TS is used strickly for ripping with a 24 T on-board. The LU 91 60 T count does an excellent job with smoothness not only on thin stock.. but up to 12/4 (3"), IMO. I use the LU91R012 since upgrading to a 12" SCMS and it does the same up to 4" stock.

MY slider has 10' extentions.. so "all" lumber coming in my shop gets sized down before the rack. You don't need a smooth cut for 12/4 or 16/4 rough or S1 in 10'-15' lenghts, but the blade gives it anyway on those thicknesses. I have no need for a large tooth count as I don't do any degree of trim moulding.

Even for a piece that will have open end grain.. I simply make the final cross-cut about 2-3 mm longer and take the final off with either an over-head bearing pattern cutting bit (as say a table end) or on a shooting board with a sharp block plane.

Bottom line: The LU91R10 or 12 (60 or 72 T respectively) is a very versatile blade that produces smooth (but not baby butt smooth) for me allowing use on 4" rough stock to 1/2" without having to have 2-3 different blades.

See ya at IWF in this fall.. I'll have to come up with a new introduction other than IRS agent this time as you are on to that one. :)

Regards...

Sarge.. john thompson

[Keith Starosta]

Thanks for the great information, Charlie!! It is much appreciated. I'll be picking up a thin kerf, lower teeth count blade soon, and save the 80T blade for the TS.

- Keith