Brrrrrrr!

[Matt Meiser]

Well, this stinks! My wife got home today and said the house felt really cold. We let the whole house cool off during the day and I just keep my office warm with an electric heater so I hadn't noticed. But sure enough, 53 degrees. I poked around and saw that the thermal sensor that detects flame rollout was bad according to the control module, so we called out service. Good thing as it turns out our heat exchanger has rust holes. :eek: Apparently not bad enough to set off our CO detectors but obviously not safe. Apparently the heat exchanger has a 20 year warranty--but the HVAC guy's regular supplier is out of stock on them them and by the time he found that out it was 5PM so no time for them to call around any more today. So we are cautiously running the furnace for a few hours to warm the house back up before we go to bed and then shutting it down and piling on the blankets. And tomorrow night its supposed to be 3! :mad: And then we'll get the bill for emergency service+several hours to replace the heat exchanger+some miscellanous "well, since we're doing all that, might as well" stuff.

[David G Baker]

Matt,
Sorry about your heater failing when it is needed most. Good luck on getting the problem fixed. To bad you can't pipe the heat in from your pole barn.
I was lucky when I purchased my house, the furnace had been replaced about 1 1/2 years before.
It has been in the teens and lower for quite a while here in Mid Michigan and we have around 14 inches of snow that has been on the ground since the last big melt. According to the weather man we are in store for around 2-4 inches more over night.
The LOML asked me to get an electric bed warmer, it is similar to an electric blanket but it goes under the mattress pad. It does help. Our master bed room has some serious air leaks during cold wind storms. When the main part of the house is 68-70 degrees the bedroom is around 57 degrees or lower. Serious insulation is due this Summer and Spring.

[Dave Verstraete]

Matt
Sorry to hear about the furnace! It doesn't look like it's going to let up for a while.

Most of us Michiganders "love the change of seasons".

[Wes Bischel]

I feel for you Matt. It always seems like these things happen at the worst times - though in this case it's a blessing in disguise. Bundle up - and don't forget to wear a hat to bed. It makes a surprising difference (especially if you are folliclely challenged like me:o) .

Wes

[Stephen Beckham]

Matt - my 2 cents, but it might be time for a second honeymoon... down at the Motel 6! :o

Hope things come out alright for ya!

[Bryan Berguson]

Hey Matt,

It's Valentine Day and your heat is broke... I'm trying to see the problem here! :D

Bryan

[David G Baker]

Matt
Sorry to hear about the furnace! It doesn't look like it's going to let up for a while.

Most of us Michiganders "love the change of seasons".
Dave,
I moved from Michigan to California when I was 14 and suffered withdrawal symptoms for years because of the lack of season changes. I lived there for 42 years and never did recover until I moved back to Michigan. Been here for going on 7 years and love it.

[Bryan Rocker]

I completely understand. The last house I bought in Oklahoma was "inspected" by a supposedly reputable company. The first time I went to crank up the furnace it didn't work. I called out the service folks and the plenum broken. The decided it was not worth fixing so they wanted it replaced. In the end I was heating my house with a wood stove for a month......Electric blankets become your friend :)

Bryan

[Jim Becker]

Look at the bright side, Matt...you were forced to spend quality time on Valentine's Day keeping the LOYL warm and toasty!

Seriosuly, bummer on the problem, but at least you discovered the real implications before the danger mounted higher.

[Matt Meiser]

The HVAC guys just started ripping out our old furnace. Trane only has one heat exchanger for my furnace in the whole country. Its in Memphis and the quickest they can get it to my dealer is sometime Monday. They (Trane/their distributor) offered me $340 towards a new furnace which I think is a slap in the face but I've basically got a (frozen) gun to my head so I don't have much choice. I've been on the phone most of the morning with various people at Trane and have gotten that credit up to $500, which I still don't think is acceptable. To me a "good" furnace should last 20-25 years so I'm just a little over 1/2 way through the life of this one. They should kick in 1/2 the cost of the actual hardware IMHO.

What really sucks is that I wanted to make it about 5 more years and then put in a Geothermal system. Since the ground is frozen, that's not even an option, even if I could afford the price tag right now.

And, I might not even get to keep the blower for someone to make air filter from.

[Wes Bischel]

Matt,
I would be reluctant to replace an existing Trane unit that they can't service properly with another one. I don't think they have earned a repeat buy.:mad: I realize they've got you over a barrel, but I'd be checking other options.

Yeah, I know, easy for me to say with a nice toasty house.:(
Wes

[Art Mulder]

Been there. Done that. My condolences, Matt.

I agree that 11-12 years is pretty sucky for a lifespan of a furnace.
Twice, we had emergency service on our furnace - as in, several inches of snow on the ground. Once we were without heat for over two days in January once, and I can tell you that those old masonry fireplaces (like we had in our Family Room) don't do a whole heck of a lot to heat a house.
in '06 I don't even remember what it was, but that was the last straw and we popped in a new one. But we at least had a few days to call around to get a few quotes and got a much better deal than from the first place we called.

...art

ps: now, aren't you glad you bought your Domino BEFORE the furnace died? ;)

[Matt Meiser]

ps: now, aren't you glad you bought your Domino BEFORE the furnace died? ;)

Don't EVEN go there. I'm waiting to hear about that one!

[Art Mulder]

What really sucks is that I wanted to make it about 5 more years and then put in a Geothermal system. Since the ground is frozen, that's not even an option, even if I could afford the price tag right now.

PS: friends of ours inherited an older geothermal system when they bought their house 10-15 years ago.

They actually were not at all happy with it, and use it very little. The reason, was that they found that is sucked a LOT of electricity with the constantly running big motor that pumped the fluid through the system of ground loop pipes.

[Tom Godley]

Matt I think getting a new unit is the way to go - since labor is not normally included in the original warranty -- the cost to rip the whole unit apart and put it back together is not worth it IMO. You still would end up with an old furnace

This way you end up with a new unit with all the latest energy savings. They have made great advances in the last few years. They also have less problems with the 90+ units. They work great -- and are they quiet!

Just to let you know, many furnaces have minimum return air temps (that must be followed) or water will condense on the heat exchanger. If you turn the heat off or allow the house temp to get too low you can have this problem when it starts up. This eats the heat exchanger -- shortening it life. Same thing can happen to boilers if the return temp is too low

High efficiency units extract extra heat by condensing -- so they have Stainless Steel exchangers and drains.

[Matt Meiser]

Tom, no one mentioned that issue to me before. My old one and my new one are both high efficency. The new one is 92.7 according to the EnergyGuide tag. My dealer pretty much told me not to spend the extra $700 for the 95% model because of parts cost down the road. This one specifically says something about condensing on the cover of the manual so I assume I'm OK. I think there's an additional drain on this one though, at least I know they had to make some modifications to the farily elaoborate drain setup we have between the AC, Humidifier and furance.

[Tom Godley]

Matt -- i encountered it many years ago when I went to replace heaters located in a detached garage.

You can also have problems caused by the A/C coils dripping on an exchanger.

Today because of the use of high quality stainless steel -- these problems are reduced. aluminum heat exchangers are still affected by the acids from combustion as is less expensive SS when they condense.

Most manufactures "sell" a parts and labor package that takes it out for 10 years. I just bought a Carrier system -- think it was about 300 bucks.

Often the better units are not only "higher efficiency" but they come with modulation and variable speed blowers that are very quiet and make the house more comfortable by allowing the heater to run longer at a lower output. I have found the comfort aspect worth the price -- The VS blowers are great when matched to an A/C system because they are better at removing moisture in high humidity climates

Good luck

[Eddie Watkins]

Sorry to hear about your problems, Matt. It always amazes me how things always break close enough to the weekend so you have to either wait til Monday or come up with some kind of extraordinary solution like buying a new one or paying weekend labor rates.

Eddie

[Matt Meiser]

Tom, the dealer and I talked about the variable speed unit, but it was about $700 more. Plus he said that on the unit I got, if it was him buying he wouldn't buy the service plan, but on the variable speed unit he would due to parts being a lot more expensive. So in the end it would have cost us over $1000 more. The benefit would have been that a variable speed unit would have evened out the temperatures in my office and my daughter's bedroom which are at the very end of the duct and tend to be cool.

Eddie, I would have gladly paid weekend labor rates. Trane REFUSED to ship the heat exchanger Saturday delivery. They could have, they just didn't want to. They wouldn't even ship it via a method guaranteed to get it to the dealer in time to install it on Monday. I'll be writing a letter to their CEO next week.

[Barry Nelson]

Nil bastardo carborundum!:D

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

Trane REFUSED to ship the heat exchanger Saturday delivery. They could have, they just didn't want to. They wouldn't even ship it via a method guaranteed to get it to the dealer in time to install it on Monday.

For real?
That's good information to know.
When you write the CEO you can mention that I'm crossing Trane off my list of mfg's. to consider.
With 3 of our rentals being "scheduled" for heat/AC units in the next 2 years, that's 3 sales they lost over that type of policy.
Having to foot the motel bill for a heatless tenant for an extra 2/3 days over a suppliers laziness ain't gonna happen.

[David G Baker]

Rich,
I agree with you on black listing Trane if their policy is as Matt described. In some areas a working heater means the difference between life and death. A utility company here in Michigan is being investigated and possibly prosecuted for homicide for turning off the heat to an elderly couple without giving them the legally required three day advance notice. The couple froze to death.

[Matt Meiser]

For real?

That's what they said. Next business day only. And apparently UPS Saver or something like that because it wasn't even going to be AM delivery on Monday.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello Matt,
Thanks for the info.
I'll make a mental note to cross Trane off the list.

[Jason Roehl]

So should Trane revise their motto..."Nothing runs when it's a Trane"? :rolleyes:

My sis and BIL had a tract home built in '91. I think they had to have a new furnace installed maybe 2-3 years ago. The service guy said something to the effect of, "Wow, I didn't think there were any of this type still working..." Apparently it was some sort of drum-type burner/heat exchanger design that was nothing but kinks that never got worked out. The design was discontinued quickly and most of the units had died within 10 years.

The house we're now in has a 18-month-old Carrier system. Last month cost us ~$200 in natural gas for 66-67ºF days and 62ºF nights. Our previous house was half (almost exactly) the square footage, and we would've had a gas bill of about $125 or more--only running the furnace after the fire in the woodstove burned down at night. Blessing #1, blessing #2, blessing #3...

[Steve Campbell]

Matt I feel your pain. I have been working out of town a lot lately. I came home two weeks ago on Friday night and turned up the heat. everything worked great. About noon on Saturday I noticed the house was cooling off. Went in the basement and had water all over. My gas fired hot water boiler furnace had a cracked boiler. I called a local heating guy and he came right over. Long story short we had a new furnace in by 7:00 pm. That's what I call great service. It got down to -10 Saturday night.
After the year I've had I sure wasn't looking to spend over 3 grand on anything but it sure could have been worse. If it had gone out a few days earlier I would have had frozen water pipes and all kinds of problems.
He still hasn't been back to finish up the install but at least it is working good.
I like you was wondering about the warranty thinking it hadn't been in there too long. I looked in my records and discovered I put it in in 1980. My how time flies. I guess if this one lasts that long I'll be happy.

Good luck Steve

[Nancy Laird]

Matt, I'm feeling your "cold" right now too - LOML and I are in Tennessee at my parents' home, and some time during the night on Sunday/Monday, their 19-year-old Rheem furnace decided to give up the ghost too. Got a quote to put in a new one, and it's going in today--on our credit card, since the 'rents didn't need to have this happen right now. After my dad's stroke in late December and associated expenses, they didn't need this right now. We've made it through last night with some small electric heaters and a couple of electric blankets, and some extra blankets. But I wouldn't want to do it for another day/night!!

Nancy

[Al Willits]

imho..
A/C evaps do not drip water on heat exchangers if installed properly, 20-25 years on a new furnace is wishful thinking, 20 maybe if your lucky, and I can almost guarantee a service call or two in that lifespan.

That 97% rated furn is at optimum conditions, something your house doesn't have and Trane not shipping on a Sat may be due to they're parts dept being closed on Sat, many are.
Also there are some shipping restrictions on shipping, they usually come by truck and not UPS, not sure what's going on with your dealer but it may not be quite as bad as it seems.
Although it doesn't sound like they're giving their best shot, but I'm not sure if many dealers do at first.

The Ultra high 90%'ers with the DC controlled motors are expensive enough that if your going with thermal soon, I'd forgo them, in fact if your sure on the thermal, buy a basic 80% and save some money.
The service plan for the high end model makes sense, that DC controlled motor is very expensive, and these furnaces do break down.

Also many of the 80% furnaces now have stainless heat exchangers too.

Hard to really say being I'm going off what I read here, but it doesn't sound like the dealer would get a gold star for saving you money, but he did suggest staying away from the ultra high end furnace, which he'd prob receive more profit, so I'm not so sure he's any different than many dealers out there.

Another reason to read warranties completely and do some research on the dealer you chose to install your furnace/AC, many have a one year labor warranty and a pro-rated parts warranty.
Also warranties in the industry seem to be getting shorter all the time.

Anyway, good luck with all this.

Al

[Matt Meiser]

Al, I think the dealer really did everything he could. We knew the heat exchanger needed to be replaced Thursday night. Friday morning by 9AM we had Trane's answer after he spent time calling around Toledo and Detroit looking for a parts. They even checked their own warehouse--he said he discovered a lot he didn't even know they had (they've been in business since 1898) but not what I needed. I assumed that the heat exchanger would be UPSable due to its size, surely it is smaller than my laser printer which got here via UPS. I think my geothermal dream is gone for at least a while :D I wasn't/am not ready to commit now so I think the 90% furnace was the best option. Besides, our chimney is PVC pipe sticking out the foundation wall and I assume the 80% furnaces still need regular flues up through the roof? Our hot water heater is also high efficiency with a PVC flue. That went about 2 years ago at age 14 which I didn't think was bad for a HW heater. What do you typically see as a life span on a 1993 vintage furnace?

He said the ultra high efficiency units were selling pretty good in the fall. People were buying them because they qualified for the tax credit, and getting the credit made up about 1/2 the cost difference. I don't think the extra efficiency would have paid for us. We use about 1100 gallons of propane a year to heat the house, heat my shop, heat our hot water, dry our clothes and to occasionally run our fireplace. Even if we dropped that 10%, which I don't think we would, the payback would be a few years and that doesn't include the extra service costs.

While we're on the subject, is there any payback to replacing our approximately 8 year old A/C system (the house didn't originally have A/C) in terms of energy savings? He didn't seem to think so.

[Al Willits]

1993 furnace would be 20+ years, remember a lot depends on maintenance and what parts your comfortable repairing, if I had 15+ on a furnace I might shy away from a new heat exchanger considering labor costs and general age of furnace, lots of variables here.

btw remember this is only my opinion fwiw..:)

If your not changing to thermal the 90% was a good choice, assuming your gonna live there long enough to recoup the cost.
Furnace choices have changed dramatically in the last generation or two, at first it was gravity, then forced air, then standard forced air (70% range) and high efficiency (80%) so ya had two basic choices, now you don't see many 70%'ers but the choices for 80 and 90% furnaces make quite the list of options for the homeowner to decide from.

Considering your gonna use this furnace to heat the house for hopefully 20+ years and consider the cost of heating, more than a little time should be spent on deciding which furnace is for you, not always a easy task.

8 year old AC?
I doubt it, seer ratings would come in to play, but even going with a higher seer unit with only 8 years on the original unit I doubt you'd realize a saving.

Sounds like ya did ok, remember to change the filter often..:D

Al

[Matt Meiser]

Sounds like ya did ok, remember to change the filter often..:D

I try. We have one of the Aprilaire units that takes the expensive, hard to find, PITA to install, easy to tear paper filter with the plastic combs that break when you look at them funny, and then are expensive to replace--know which one I mean? Now Lowes carries a drop in filter that fits the housing so its not as much of a chore--still expensive though. I tried to get the HVAC guy to sell me something better but he said those work great and mine is in good shape. :)

I tried to get him to sell me a new humidifier too, but he said that was working just fine as well. :)

[Al Willits]

I try. We have one of the Aprilaire units that takes the expensive, hard to find, PITA to install, easy to tear paper filter with the plastic combs that break when you look at them funny, and then are expensive to replace--know which one I mean? Now Lowes carries a drop in filter that fits the housing so its not as much of a chore--still expensive though. I tried to get the HVAC guy to sell me something better but he said those work great and mine is in good shape. :)

I tried to get him to sell me a new humidifier too, but he said that was working just fine as well. :)


No prob Matt, just send me a blank check and I'd be glad to sell ya a filter and humidifier, you always wanted a DIY project anyway right??:D

A lot depends on what kind of filter rack was installed, many will hold several different filters but they usually need to be a certain size, like 20x20x1", not sure what ya have there, so I can't try to help.

Sounds like your installer is doing ok buy ya, there's some out there that would sell ya lake shore property just outside of Las Vegas if they could..:D

Al

[Matt Meiser]

there's some out there that would sell ya lake shore property just outside of Las Vegas if they could

Uh, Al...Lake Mead (Hoover Dam) is just outside Las Vegas. :D

[Al Willits]

Well of course not THAT far outside of Vegas......:D

Al...who's off to buy a US map before he mentions the mountains of Iowa..:o