Needed planes?

[Joe D'Attilio]

As a newbie to woodworking...
In the last month of reading and posting questions..I have found more then enough information and I wanted to first and foremost thank everyone and their generous knowledge. You guys (and gals) are the best. I'm gratuitous of your "open-arm" welcoming.

Question:
I now have a Stanley #3,4,5, and 7: Would it be in my better interest to part with one, Either the 3 or 4 take the money and pick up a shoulder plane?

Any insight would be greatfully appreciated...

[Don Dorn]

Personal preference and there are far more knowledgable people on the subject than I, but I like and use a #3 all the time - it just feels right in my hand. In fact, (strike me down), I don't generally bother with a block plane to chamfer edges, reaching for the #3 instead. In my opinion, you have a good set - I would keep them and get the shoulder plane.

[Mike Cutler]

No, I wouldn't part with them. When you need a shoulder plane, you'll know it. Buy it then.

Keep your planes, you have a nice collection started there, and you'll need them all someday.;)

[Mark Stutz]

Joe,
I would hang on to what you have. 3's and 4's are fairly common, and you won't recoup enough to get a shoulder plane that is decent. Start working with what you have. Most of us started using planes for final smoothing and progressed from there. Now, if you have a project that uses M & T joinery, then it might come in handy, but you can probably pare the shoulders well with a chisel. This is one situation where a new LV isn't too much more than the vintage Stanley, in comparison to bench planes.

[Jim Koepke]

I now have a Stanley #3,4,5, and 7: Would it be in my better interest to part with one, Either the 3 or 4 take the money and pick up a shoulder plane?

Unless there is something special about the 3 or 4, it will not come close to raising enough money to buy a shoulder plane.

If you are trying to have a minimum number of planes, then of course, decide which one is more to your liking and sell the other.

For the longest time my No. 3 was preferred over any of the No. 4s in my shop. Then an old No. 4 was worked on, put into working shape and now is used just as much as the No. 3, just for different things.

In your position, I would set up the No. 3 to take real thin shavings and the No. 4 to do utility work. Then for general smoothing, reach for the No. 4, for a difficult spot use the No. 3.

I have a pair of No. 5s set up this way and I really like using them both. I was thinking of putting a blade in one from a No. 3 with a rounded edge to make a scrub plane. That has not happened yet.

Jim

Just because something doesn't do what you planned it to do doesn't mean it's useless.
– Thomas Edison

[Pedro Reyes]

Obviously you've walked into a bar and asked the regulars if you should return your pilsner and order a stout instead...

I am with them... your collection is nice and you'll find instances where you reach for a particular plane in a particular situation. In my opinion the only call you would have to make is the #3, but you'll find moments when you appreciate it's smaller form... most likely before you need a shoulder plane.

Mike gave sound advice, keep what you have and buy a shoulder plane when you absolutely need it. In fact I would buy a 78 first.

have fun.

/p

[Richard Niemiec]

What Mark said. And when you're ready for a shoulder plane, seriously consider the Lee Valley medium as a starter, its one of my go to planes for trimming up a whole bunch of things. LN is a bit more traditional in their medium, but I have the LN large and its a fine tool as well.

[Joe D'Attilio]

only reason I was contemplating a shoulder was for tenons

Is there a multi purpose plane out there worth considering for multi-purpose duties? Tenons, rabbets etc
i.e. the Clifton 3-in-1 combination plane @ toolsforwoodworking.com (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-6353110.XX&Category_Code=TPSR)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Personal preference and there are far more knowledgable people on the subject than I, but I like and use a #3 all the time - it just feels right in my hand. In fact, (strike me down), I don't generally bother with a block plane to chamfer edges, reaching for the #3 instead. In my opinion, you have a good set - I would keep them and get the shoulder plane.

Don, I thought I was the only goof ball that thought like that! Love my #603!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

only reason I was contemplating a shoulder was for tenons

Is there a multi purpose plane out there worth considering for multi-purpose duties? Tenons, rabbets etc
i.e. the Clifton 3-in-1 combination plane @ toolsforwoodworking.com (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-6353110.XX&Category_Code=TPSR)

Joe, I have one of each of those types of planes, and I'd say that a breakdown of the use of each would be something like, shoulder plane, 95%, bullnose rabbet at 6% and chisel plane at 4%. I may be being a little generous with the bull nose and the chisel. It's has to be a pain to convert that plane, and as usual, Clifton costs more then the Record copy of a Preston. Not a big Clifton fan here, I think you pay way too much for equal or in some cases less quality than the originals. That ought to get someone fired up....

[Mike Cutler]

One of the primary reasons for



only reason I was contemplating a shoulder was for tenons

Is there a multi purpose plane out there worth considering for multi-purpose duties? Tenons, rabbets etc
i.e. the Clifton 3-in-1 combination plane @ toolsforwoodworking.com (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-6353110.XX&Category_Code=TPSR)

That certainly looks like a nice tool.
I've found that, for me, I don't like "converting tools" in the middle of things. I'm probably just lazy though;).
I've always favored purpose specific tool. It's nice to just "grab & go", and know the tool is ready to go.

[Marcus Ward]

Get a Veritas large shoulder plane for tenons/shoulders, the ergonomics can't be beat.

Keep all the planes you have and add the following (Stanley numbers):
Cabinet Scraper (80)
Shoulder plane(93, but I'd get the Veritas)
Router plane((71)
Low angle block (60 1/2)

Nice but not must haves:
Low angle jack (62 - but I'd buy the one from Veritas)
Compass plane (113) Essential if you do any curved surfaces.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I never found a shoulder plane useful. A chisel has always been better for me for tenon shoulders and cheeks. The shoulder plane will only make a 90 degree cut. This is great if your tenon cheek is perfectly in plane with the surface of your stock, however, if it is not, you will do more harm than good trying to "true" your shoulder. The shoulder plane will make it square to the tenon cheek but this may leave a large gap where the shoulder meets the mortise if your tenon is not perfect. With a chisel, you can take off material only in the areas that need it and you can undercut the shoulder slightly to get a perfect fit at the shoulder. You can't undercut with a shoulder plane.

As for tenon cheeks, I think shoulder planes are too narrow to adjust these effectively. Most tenons are over 1" long and the large shoulder planes that are wide enough to handle wide tenon cheeks are real tall, long and top heavy and hard to control and balance on a small area like a tenon cheek (like trying to balance a #7 on a 6" long board). I think a rabbeting block plane would be a better choice for adjusting tenon cheeks if you have to have a plane to do this job, however, I just use a chisel. That way I can remove material only where it needs to be removed.

Like the #95 edge plane, I think they are an expensive, unnecessary tool, invented to make minor adjustments to the inaccuracies of early machines. I say skip the shoulder plane. There are certainly other tools that see way more day to day use than a shoulder plane, at least in my shop. Several I can think of right off the top of my head would be a plow plane (just about everything needs grooves, drawer bottoms, panel doors, and they can also be used to gauge depth and begin making moldings), brace and bits, marking tools (squares, becels, gauges, awl, knife), rabbet plane, rasps and files.

[Ken Werner]

Joe, you need 'em all. You have a very nice set there. As others have said, wait til you really want/need the shoulder plane, then get it. You might consider the LN 60 1/2R for tenons, but IMO, the LV med shoulder gives more control.

Remember, you're sliding down the slope, and trying to sell a plane now to buy another may be futile....

I'm Ken, and I'm a planeaholic.

[Mark Singer]

only reason I was contemplating a shoulder was for tenons

Is there a multi purpose plane out there worth considering for multi-purpose duties? Tenons, rabbets etc
i.e. the Clifton 3-in-1 combination plane @ toolsforwoodworking.com (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=EE-6353110.XX&Category_Code=TPSR)
Joe,
That is my least favorite Clinton shoulder plane. I would get a medium size shoulder if you are building furniture a small one if you are building jewlery boxes and smaller work. Cliton, LN, or Veritas

[Danny Thompson]

Marcus,

You like the large LV shoulder plane over the medium? If so, why? (The medium on my wish list, but I am interested in your reasons.)

Robert,

Nicely stated, well-reasoned dissenting post. How do you deal with the bottom of dados? Plow plane or chisel, again? Do you actually have a plow plane? Which one?

Danny

[Pedro Reyes]

Joe,

as you can see there is no hard rule, reach for what you need, really need. I agree that chisels can get you by on M&T work. I do have a Veritas medium shoulder plane and it is a beautiful tool.

But as I indicated in a subtle way a 78 would perhaps help you more, even a plow plane (I like the 50 over the more complicated 45 or 55).

So seeing that there are may different opinions I am going to invite members to post their list in what they think is order of importance (planes only). Just for S&G, if you had to flee for some reason and could only get 8 of your planes what wold those be? Here is mine...


# 5 Jack
# 7 Jointer
# 4 (or 3 or 4-1/2) Smoother
# 60-1/2
# 78 or an acceptable fillister
# 71 Router
# 50 or your plow plane of choice
# 9-1/2 or some small plane (e.g. 103)



/p

[Robert Rozaieski]

Marcus,
Robert,

How do you deal with the bottom of dados? Plow plane or chisel, again? Do you actually have a plow plane? Which one?

Danny
Danny,
I currently have a Sargent 1080 that I use as a plow/dado plane and for beads that are needed in a different size from my wooden side bead. No need to clean up the bottom with anything else after using this ;). I do have a #71 router but it does not get used very often and not for cleaning up plowed grooves or dadoes. The #71 does excel at cleaning up the bottom of a half lap after chiseling the waste. One could also use a chisel for this but a half lap needs to be very accurate and flat to glue correctly since you can't reinforce it mechanically. Tenon cheeks have a little more wiggle room, especially if you drawbore them, so I use a chisel (though you could use a #71 here as well for tenons in the same plane as the face of the stock; it won't work for angled tenons though). I've also used a #271 (small router) to level the bottoms of hinge mortises and wooden plane wedge mortises when I make a plane (I use the 2 piece method because I don't have floats).

The 1080 is not ideal for dados (I want to get a couple woodie dados) but it works. It's great as a plow though. I had a woodie plow that I liked but it was not as stable in the cut as the double skates of the Sargent. I have not used the tongue cutter yet so I can't comment on that use of it but it should work out just fine (although I just got a set of woodie match planes that will work much better I'm sure :D). The Sargent was also much cheaper than the equivalent Stanley #45.

[Randal Stevenson]

Get a Veritas large shoulder plane for tenons/shoulders, the ergonomics can't be beat.

Keep all the planes you have and add the following (Stanley numbers):
Cabinet Scraper (80)
Shoulder plane(93, but I'd get the Veritas)
Router plane((71)
Low angle block (60 1/2)

Nice but not must haves:
Low angle jack (62 - but I'd buy the one from Veritas)
Compass plane (113) Essential if you do any curved surfaces.


Marcus,

You like the large LV shoulder plane over the medium? If so, why? (The medium on my wish list, but I am interested in your reasons.)

Robert,

Nicely stated, well-reasoned dissenting post. How do you deal with the bottom of dados? Plow plane or chisel, again? Do you actually have a plow plane? Which one?

Danny

You know the old saying (I remember it from Benny Hill), "never ASSUME anything, because you make an A** out of U and ME".
Are there any differences between the shoulder planes other than for handsize? (I am also guessing width of cut as well, but I figured hand size and project (don't use a large one for a small box) would cause one to choose the size they do)

[Brian J. Williams]

Joe-

I'm with Pedro on the 78. When I started collecting, the second plane I got was a 78. Now, you can still buy new 78's- not as pretty as the old ones, but they work. I've used my 78 to trim tenons, and I recently watched Roy Underhill do that very thing on a rerun of the WoodWrights shop on PBS.

Having said that. . .

I used my Veritas large shoulder plane to clean up the base of the totes I'm working on, and man is it nice. Massive relative to other brands/sizes of shoulder planes, and tuned to shave that rosewood into strips you can read through (I'll send some along with the tote).

You should be able to get a 78 off "that site" for on the order of $40.00, inclusive of shipping. (I saw one go for about that a couple of days ago.) You can also buy one from a tool dealer- they currently retail for about $50.00 to $75.00 new- but with the new plane, you get the depth stop and fende that came with the originals, and a lot of the 78's you see on "that site" don't have the depth stop or fence (which you can order form Stanley if you happen to get a screaming deal on the 78 that doesn't have the fence or depth stop).

When you finally, absolutely CAN'T live without a shoulder plane, I'd try the LV large or Medium. The old Stanley shoulder planes look cool, but frankly they can be hard to hold onto, being so nicely nickeled. My LV large shoulder plane has the oversize wooden knobs and the funky-looking through holes, but you lay it on it's side to shoot and man oh man, rapture (well, sort of). You get the idea.

Brian

[Jim Koepke]

Is there a multi purpose plane out there worth considering for multi-purpose duties? Tenons, rabbets etc
i.e. the Clifton 3-in-1 combination plane @ toolsforwoodworking.com

For the price of this one you could buy a used Stanley 90 and a 92 or 93.

Jim

[Marcus Ward]

Marcus,
You like the large LV shoulder plane over the medium? If so, why? (The medium on my wish list, but I am interested in your reasons.)


Because you can use it on tenon cheeks more easily. I build a lot of mission furniture so I'm forever making mortise and tenons and enjoy that plane for that job. I don't agree with the criticisms that a chisel is better, I find you can get a far more even surface with a plane if you figure out the intricacies of using one for this job. I find it easier to clean up gaps and never have this balance problem with the Veritas given its superior ergonomics. I wish I had the control with a chisel that Robert does, but I guess I'll just have to settle for using a plane for this job. I disagree with the assertion they were invented to overcome machine deficiencies. I think Robert overstated his case a little.

[Archie England]

Well, what about a woodie for cleaning up those m & t's. I finally bought one, thinking less of these older, non-metal planes. Boy, was I surprised when my *bay special trimmed like a jewel. I bought a 1 1/8" skew woodie that works well. I like it so well, that I've decided to explore more woodies.

[Marcus Ward]

I have 2, they work a peach.

[Kevin French]

Obviously you've walked into a bar and asked the regulars if you should return your pilsner and order a stout instead...



have fun.

/p

BAD analogy Pedro of course you return the pils for the STOUT, especially if your driving, (so you can have two, that is).


Joe another vote to keep the #3. The more I use mine the more I like it.