benchtop

[Mike Steinhilper]

I have the old solid core door benchtop, and while it's been terrific up until now, it's not working so well for dog holes and vises. I'm thinking of keeping my base, and replacing the top. I can't afford the amount of hardwood it would take to do it. Can someone give some feedback on using construction grade stuff? I would imagine moisture would be my biggest concern? What else?

[Thomas Knighton]

Chris Schwarz actually suggests Southern yellow pine for workbenches in is book and his blogs...construction grade stuff. ;)

Tom

[Sam Yerardi]

I would use southern yellow pine as well. Extremely hard and will take a beating. And it's readily available at places like Lowes and HD.

[Mike Steinhilper]

Ok, good news. I rarely see it mentioned so I wasn't sure.

[Sam Yerardi]

The secondary wood of some of the finest furniture ever made is southern yellow pine.

[Hank Knight]

Mike,

Some of the benches I've seen made from construction grade Southern yellow pine look very nice. If you decide to use SYP, go to a lumber yard and look for wide stock, like 2 X 10s or 2 X 12s and rip it down to size. Narrow 2X4s and 2X6s are generally very knotty and most from the BORG look like prezels. Sawyers save the clear stuff for wide boards that are used for stair stringers and such. It's more expensive but there's lot less waste involved.

My $.02

Hank

[Greg Cole]

Hi Mike,
FWIW, I am working on making a temporary bench to use to make a real bench, I think that makes sense.:rolleyes: The current bench is no where flat enough for making a flat surface like a bench on (and no feasible way to flatten the existing).
Anyway, I am using borg SYP for the temporary bench top (will be used for an assembly station after its commissioning usage). I bought the material about a month ago, stickered and put a bunch of weight on the stack in the shop. Make sure you are buying SYP, not fir or spruce. Word of wisdom... buy at least 25% more than you'll need... as that stuff dries-acclimates.. it moves like crazy. A few of the sticks in that pile are good for nadda now, although they would be a good start on a kayak or canoe.
I've seen some very nice benches made from construction grade lumber, but I am only wanting to make one "real" bench, so the lifer will have a hardwood top.

Greg

[Steve Wargo]

MDF! I've had it as my bench top for 3 years now and it's great. I know its not traditional, but it is durable and very heavy. Here's a link to it.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=20844

[Greg Cole]

MDF! I've had it as my bench top for 3 years now and it's great. I know its not traditional, but it is durable and very heavy. Here's a link to it.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=20844


Steve has a good point here. But for me the useage of SYP for an initial bench top is an exercise in practice for the nex hard wood one.

Greg

[Mike Steinhilper]

Steve, how many sheets of MDF? Did you laminate them with regular yellow glue? And why the hardboard on top? MDF did not occur to me, but it does seem ideal.

[Sam Yerardi]

Make sure it's a dry area before you commit to MDF. I built several guitar-building forms once out of MDF (which I still do) but if it resides in a high-humid area, you will see the effects of it eventually.

[Mike Steinhilper]

even if sealed with watco or something? i definitely do not have a dry shop.

[Greg Cole]

Steve, how many sheets of MDF? Did you laminate them with regular yellow glue? And why the hardboard on top? MDF did not occur to me, but it does seem ideal.

Mike,
The hardboard is replaceable "just in case"..... and the hardboard saves the MDF substrate from direct abuse as MDF isn't known for being "tough" that way.
Usually 3 layers of MDF are laminated with contact cement & screws... just need to place the screws so as not to interfere with dog holes, vice mounting etc. Also edge band the MDF with whatever wood ya have laying around to protect the edges from disappearing over time with use.
I am making a "war chest" for storage with a 1 1/2" thick (doubled 3/4 MDF) and will top it with 1/4" hardboard. The top will serve as an assembly station and a place to apply hand rubbed finishes etc... with a coat of wax on hardboard it's great for assembly (i've been using a piece on my TS for a good long while for this), there's no mess after a glue up as it all wipes off or scrapes off very easily.
If you are concerned about moisture, seal it with shellac.

Greg

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

If you want dog holes you can make them and insert them or build 'em in.

Make the torsion box or 2*4 bench top and in it you can install hardwood cores that will receive the dogs.
You can make 'em square or rectangular one or two piece or you can make 'em round and simply bore holes where ever you want on an existing benchtop.

If the bench is too slim for dogs you can still do it by simply adding beef underneath where you need it.

[Don C Peterson]

I'm building a bench out of Douglas Fir. In my area the only Southern Yellow Pine I can find is pressure treated... Douglas Fir is actually stiffer than Southern Yellow Pine but it isn't quite as heavy or durable. Douglas Fir is easy to find and cheap, I just pick out the best 2x10 lumber In can find. At about $8 for 8 footers I have more than enough for a 7'x34"x4" benchtop for less than $100. I figure a 4" thick top of Douglas Fir will take quite a few flattenings before it's used up (it will probably out live me) and for the price, I can build several of them for the price of one Maple top.

[Matt Ranum]

7 years ago I built my bench top out of 3 layers of MDF and the top and sides are covered in 1/4" tempered hardboard. Works fantastic! The size of mine is 32" x 72" and did a 6" grid of 3/4" bench dog holes covering the whole top. Sounds excessive but with some bench cleats made to fit anywhere I see fit it works great for squaring up projects.

Only problem I had was I designed it to sit on an open frame and I misjudged the allowable distances for the material and it sagged a little bit after a year, but I changed the base and it straightened itself right back out.

MDF is a great product but it has its limitations too.

Matt.

[Ray Knight]

How do i know if a board at HD or Lowe's is SYP. They don't appear to be labeled, or are they? Ray

[Lee Koepke]

How do i know if a board at HD or Lowe's is SYP. They don't appear to be labeled, or are they? Ray
they are usually marked. the tag shoud say syp or spf.

almost all of the stud grade stuff ( 2x4 or 2x6 ) will be spf. anything 2x8 or larger will most likely be syp.

big box retailers (or most places south of virginia) dont sell syp for anything smaller than 2x8s.

oh yeah ... spf is MUCH lighter and 'whiter' in color. syp is a bit heavier and definiately yellowish in color. obvious grain pattern too.

[Greg Hines, MD]

The benchtop that I built came right out of Popular Woodworking, and is 4 layers of birch plywood. It holds dog holes well, and is very durable.

Doc

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mine is cheap, quite stable, and really massive. I got two left over 8' long piecs of 2'x6" laminated beam, and put them together to end up with a a bench top that is 4x7, and weighs a bunch. Still a work in progress, but I don't have any complaints. There is a picture of it I posted with a bunch of saws, a month ago or so.

[Steve Wargo]

4 layers of MDF, yellow glue and yes the top masonite is for ease of replacement when the top gets worn.

[Greg Cole]

At about $8 for 8 footers I have more than enough for a 7'x34"x4" benchtop for less than $100. I figure a 4" thick top of Douglas Fir will take quite a few flattenings before it's used up (it will probably out live me) and for the price, I can build several of them for the price of one Maple top.

Guess that depends on where ya buy your sticks... ;)

Greg

[Chris Padilla]

4 layers of MDF, yellow glue and yes the top masonite is for ease of replacement when the top gets worn.

Steve,

I plan something like that for my benchtop as well. I picked up several 18"x36" maple butcher blocks for a decent price.

My plan was to laminate 3-4 layers of 1/2" MDF as the core, 1/2" ply for the bottom, and roughly 1" thick END-GRAIN maple for my top made from the butcher block and then wrap that sucker in maple. I've got a Veritas twin-screw for the end-vise and I forget what I picked up for the other vise. Veritas round dogs will dot the landscape and the whole heavy mess will sit on Noden's adjust-a-legs.

I planned to use Unibond 800 for my glue. One day I'll get to it...who knows when.... :o

[Robert Rozaieski]

Rather than a laminated bench top, consider a top like Chris Schwarz built for his English workbench (based on Nicholson's bench). The top can be made of 2 or 3 8/4 boards. Stifness is gained by cross bearers under the top. Just let it equilibrate to the shop space and remove the same amount from each face and cupping should be minimal with kiln dried stuff. This top uses much less lumber than a typical laminated top. I've laminated 2 tops and I would not do it again. My next bench (if I ever build another) will be an English bench.

[Steve Wargo]

Chris,
I'm not sure I'd put butcher block on the top and not on the bottom. The plywood and Butcher block will move completely differently than one another. Probably be best to butcher block the top and bottom to prevent the top from warping. You can always resaw the butcher block and use it on top and bottom. Even a half inch layer on top and bottom would be nice.

[Wilbur Pan]

I often see that the rationale for using MDF over 2x material for a benchtop is the increased mass. The density of Douglas fir or Southern yellow pine, which seems to be the more common woods that 2x material is made of, is about 500-550 kg/m3. The density of MDF is 600-700 kg/m3. This does make MDF more dense than 2x material, but I'm not sure it's the huge difference that it's made out to be.

In addition, a 2x4 turned on its side should give you a top that is on the order of 3 1/4 inches thick, accounting for thickness lost by planing the surface smooth. Three sheets of 3/4" MDF is 2 1/4" thick. The mass of 3 1/4" of wood that is 500 kg/m3 is pretty close to 2 1/4" of material that is 700 kg/m3, if I've done my math right. Of course, Steve went with 4 sheets of MDF, which makes my analysis not quite applicable. ;) But you get my point.

For what it's worth, I'm making a workbench with 2x material. I figure the weight difference is negligible, based on the calculations above, I like the look better than MDF, and since my bench is going to be a hand tool bench, I figure there's nothing better to get my planing techinque up to snuff than leveling a workbench top.

I think that the reason MDF seems to be so much more dense is that one usually works with a big sheet of MDF at one time, whereas 2x material is moved around in smaller chunks. Think of it this way: if it takes 4 sheets of MDF to make a workbench top, as in Steve's case, dividing a workbench top into 4 chunks of 2x material will be leave you with pretty heavy chunks of wood as well. But I've never seen a workbench top made of only 4 chunks of 2x material laminated together.

But either 2x material or MDF will give you a very serviceable workbench.

[Don C Peterson]

It seems that the biggest problem with MDF is it's lack of stiffness and structural integrity. Without pretty extensive bracing, an MDF top will sag given time. A bench top made from SYP or Douglass Fir is pretty comparable in price, and doesn't need the kind of bracing that the MDF top would. Ultimately that makes for a simpler design which is also more flexible to boot. Not that you can't be happy with your MDF bench, that's just the reasoning I used to decide what to make my bench out of...

[Matt Martyn]

How would a top laminated from 2x SPF spruce work? Looking to make a workbench without spending a lot. I havn't been able to find any construction grade SYP or DF aound here. Would the spruce really be too soft?

Thanks.
~Matt

[Mark Stutz]

Several years ago, there was an article in WOOD, IIRC, regarding a bench. They used two layers of MDF with solid wood banding, and a 1/2 inch top of QS Maple...flat sawn stock ripped and turned on edge. They attached it tothe top using construction adhesive to account for any wood movement, although they didn't expect much since it was, in effect, QS. Haven't tried it to know how it works, though.

Mark

[Lee Koepke]

How would a top laminated from 2x SPF spruce work? Looking to make a workbench without spending a lot. I havn't been able to find any construction grade SYP or DF aound here. Would the spruce really be too soft?

Thanks.
~Matt
personally, i think it would.

if you look for 2x12 stair stringers, and rip them to size, THAT should be SYP

[Steve Wargo]

Don,
You made a very good point about the sag. The top of the case of my workbench is braced lengthwise 3 times and width wide 5 times, so about 11" squares. There is no way that you could make a workbench top the size of mine resting only on the outside frame. MDF must be braced properly. Great point. I actually wish I'd have taken a picture of the carcass before I put the top on, but with the top weighing in at over 300lbs with the vise I'm not moving it for a photo op.

[James Mittlefehldt]

How would a top laminated from 2x SPF spruce work? Looking to make a workbench without spending a lot. I havn't been able to find any construction grade SYP or DF aound here. Would the spruce really be too soft?

Thanks.
~Matt

Matt welcome to the Creek and the cave therin. I have tried to find Douglas Fir, and the only source I came up with was A & M wood supply in Cambridge, but they wanted a really high price for it. I can't understand why so much is cut in BC, but so little finds it's way here.

I can get some decent White pine 2x 10 finished four sides for $3. a linear foot, nut if construction grade 2x12 or 2x10 spruce would work then maybe I could use that, though that stuff really moves a lot.

I once saw a bench at an auction sale that the top was made from old telephone pole cross bucks, he had inverted them so the holes for the pegs that held the insulators were on the bottom.

[Dan Barr]

i put together the numbers on making myself a woodworking bench and i decided to put that project off for a while. im moving to england in a few months anyway.

but, if i were going to make a bench to get me by, i would do the SYP top as well. it doesnt matter if you beat the thing up. that alone would allow me to woodwork normally without being nervous about putting dents in a perfected hardwood top.

i would definitely go for it. even if you build the hardwood version later, so what. you'll have two benches. that would be great!!! i would reserve one for jionery; probably the pine and use the hardwood bench for plane work.

ciao,

dan

[Billy Chambless]

The benchtop that I built came right out of Popular Woodworking, and is 4 layers of birch plywood. It holds dog holes well, and is very durable.


I've been going back on forth between that and SYP for a Roubo-style bench. The ply would certainly be faster/easier, and the cost would be about the same.

[Thomas Knighton]

The ply may be faster, but now easily can you reflatten it? Things will get out of whack through normal use, but using something like SYP will let you reflatten it pretty easily with a jointer plane. I honestly don't know if that's an option with ply.

Tom

[Billy Chambless]

The ply may be faster, but now easily can you reflatten it? Things will get out of whack through normal use, but using something like SYP will let you reflatten it pretty easily with a jointer plane. I honestly don't know if that's an option with ply.


Good point. I suspect this falls under the heading of "take the time to do it right the first time.

And you certainly can't beat the coolness factor of a solid wood top. ;)

[Chris Padilla]

Good stuff, Everyone. I think with the high-quality glues we have access to, sagging of various materials will probably be kept to a minimum to not happening at all.

Laminations get their strength from the glue...hence my reasoning for using 1/2" MDF over 3/4" MDF to build up some layers/thickness/bulk for my shop bench. I would even be willing to use 1/4" or 3/8" assuming I can find it and it is reasonble cost.

And, Steve, I think an end-grain top will barely move in the lateral direction so I don't see a need to "waste" matching that material on the other side of my bench top. Thoughts?

[Don C Peterson]

Good stuff, Everyone. I think with the high-quality glues we have access to, sagging of various materials will probably be kept to a minimum to not happening at all.

Laminations get their strength from the glue...hence my reasoning for using 1/2" MDF over 3/4" MDF to build up some layers/thickness/bulk for my shop bench. I would even be willing to use 1/4" or 3/8" assuming I can find it and it is reasonble cost.

And, Steve, I think an end-grain top will barely move in the lateral direction so I don't see a need to "waste" matching that material on the other side of my bench top. Thoughts?

Yes the laminations would be more stiff than non-laminated MDF, but think of plywood, the strength and stability don't come from the glue, but rather from the alternating grain patterns. MDF obviously has no grain and very little stiffness. The reason MDF will tend to sag is because given the constant pull of gravity the particles aren't bound together strongly enough to support its own weight. The particles in effect move away from each other. Putting glue on the surface might add SOME stiffness, but won't change the basic fact that the bulk of the boards particles lack the necessary strength. I think laminated MDF would only be marginally stiffer than MDF stock of the same thickness, but I could be wrong there... I'm pretty sure though that a 4" thick piece of SYP or DF will be much stiffer (along the grain) than a 4" thick piece of MDF regardless of how you build up the MDF. Some pretty easy experiments come to mind, maybe I'll do some and post results.

I'm not saying that MDF can't be made into a suitable bench, only that you would need to provide support for it.

[Dave Lehnert]

Matt welcome to the Creek and the cave therin. I have tried to find Douglas Fir, and the only source I came up with was A & M wood supply in Cambridge, but they wanted a really high price for it. I can't understand why so much is cut in BC, but so little finds it's way here.

I can get some decent White pine 2x 10 finished four sides for $3. a linear foot, nut if construction grade 2x12 or 2x10 spruce would work then maybe I could use that, though that stuff really moves a lot.

I once saw a bench at an auction sale that the top was made from old telephone pole cross bucks, he had inverted them so the holes for the pegs that held the insulators were on the bottom.

I am in the process of figuring out what kind of bench I would like to build. I happen to Live in Cincinnati, Ohio. The home of Popular Woodworking and Chris S. I was in lows today looking at SYP and it was only about $13 for 2x12. Looked very good a mostly clear. Wish I was ready to buy.

[James Mittlefehldt]

I am in the process of figuring out what kind of bench I would like to build. I happen to Live in Cincinnati, Ohio. The home of Popular Woodworking and Chris S. I was in lows today looking at SYP and it was only about $13 for 2x12. Looked very good a mostly clear. Wish I was ready to buy.

Hi Dave;

Wish we could get SYP here, but the construction stuff here is white or black spruce, I think a 2x12 here would cost about that as well I assume you are talking 8 foot. The trouble with the spruce is it is soft, though not bad as a structural material, but it moves a lot.

[Lee Koepke]

Hi Dave;

Wish we could get SYP here, but the construction stuff here is white or black spruce, I think a 2x12 here would cost about that as well I assume you are talking 8 foot. The trouble with the spruce is it is soft, though not bad as a structural material, but it moves a lot.
curious.....what kind of lumber do they use there for floor joist framing or stairs ?

I am a southerner, and we use SYP for that, so I am curious what other framing is used.

[glenn bradley]

MDF! I've had it as my bench top for 3 years now and it's great. I know its not traditional, but it is durable and very heavy. Here's a link to it.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=20844

I'm with Steve; 3" of laminated MDF sheets. Dog holes have held up no problem (these were my biggest concern). I just hit it with BLO and paste wax. It has held up great. I called it my "next" workbench in the thread but it may turn out to be my last bench. I just need to re-do the trim someday as I used construction grade and despite 2 months acclimating in the shop before use; it has continued to shrink and is no longer level. It's here: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=57879

And a picture here in it's natural habitat: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=76668&d=1197145899

[Matt Martyn]

Matt welcome to the Creek and the cave therin. I have tried to find Douglas Fir, and the only source I came up with was A & M wood supply in Cambridge, but they wanted a really high price for it. I can't understand why so much is cut in BC, but so little finds it's way here.

I can get some decent White pine 2x 10 finished four sides for $3. a linear foot, nut if construction grade 2x12 or 2x10 spruce would work then maybe I could use that, though that stuff really moves a lot.

I once saw a bench at an auction sale that the top was made from old telephone pole cross bucks, he had inverted them so the holes for the pegs that held the insulators were on the bottom.

Thanks for the welcome to the forum. I have been lurking here now for maybe 6 weeks, and this seems like such a great forum, loads of good info and people. I do especially like this neander section:D.

I went shopping again looking for some of that harder pine, but can't find it anywhere, so I just picked up some spruce instead. I guess I'll see how it stands up. I'm just trying to make a relatively affordable bench, since it is my first one. If it turns out decent, I'll post some pics of it. One day I'll make one of those furnature grade benches, and be too afraid to use it.... haha Thanks for the info.

[Thomas Knighton]

Matt,

If you haven't already, check out Workbenches: From Design and Theory to Construction and Use By Christopher Schwarz. In my opinion, it's really the workbench book and it has lots of great advice for building workbenches, especially wood.

It may help you out. If not, get it anyways...it's a pretty good book even without needing it :)

[James Mittlefehldt]

curious.....what kind of lumber do they use there for floor joist framing or stairs ?

I am a southerner, and we use SYP for that, so I am curious what other framing is used.


White or Black Spruce, actually the stuff has I believe a fairly high strength to weight ratio, and the better mills usually take the =tiwisted stuff from the kilns after drying amd make pulp for paper out of it. It has been used for years and is the material of choice, or should I say availability hereabouts.

MAtt;
If you are in a part of Ontario that has sawmills and such nearby, you might be able to get red pine which is harder and better suited for a workbench than Spruce construction lumber, you might even be able to get it in 16/4 size, I am thinking particularily of North Bay and environs.

[Dan Barr]

dont worry. stuff will accumulate during a project and you WILL use both of those benches. then you'll put your first good ding in the nice one. :D

you'll just have to take a breath and let it be.

ciao,

dan

[Alex Yeilding]

Can someone give some feedback on using construction grade stuff? I would imagine moisture would be my biggest concern? What else?

I built my second bench a couple of years ago of SYP, and have been very pleased with it. Wood movement has affected me only in the trestle base with knockdown joints on the stretchers. A couple of times I have had to give the wedges a hit with a mallet, as they had loosened due to seasonal movement.

You've correctly identified moisture as a key concern. As a couple of others have said here, give it plenty of time to aclimate to your shop environment.

Some of this stuff has lots of internal tensions that can be released as you cut it. I felt safer ripping on a bandsaw. I also left pieces somewhat oversized so that any warping that happened as they are cut or when the former center dries further can be dressed away. leaving boards of desired size.

Take the time to solve the puzzle of laying out your boards with the grain on the top all going one direction -- I have not found SYP to take planing against the grain very gracefully, unless you are taking such small shavings that you will never get it done. I also like to alternate ring direction Inside of tree facing forward every other board, backwards on the others. But this is not as important IMHO as grain direction.

If you have tailed apprentices and don't mind using them, I'd suggest glue-up in stages, with each slab as wide as your jointer will take (6" for me). Then treat that slab as a single board, flattening and squaring relative to each other two faces on the jointer, and use a thickness planer to make other faces parallel. (This is "do as I say, not as I do" I didn't do this with my bench, but did on a subsequent laminated piece, and it saves a lot of work at the final flattening stage.)

I don't know what you plan on for finish, but I'd suggest that you do use something, Even just a drying oil like linseed or tung will prevent a lot of splinters, which can be another negative of this wood.

P.S., I have been extremely pleased with how flat my bench has stayed. Flattening it with a #8, I easily got it to within 0.001" to 0.002" per foot, which I told myself was a fun but useless exercise, since it would quickly move, and I would just reflatten periodically. But it hasn't! I'm about at the stage where I want to take off 1/64" or so for aesthetics to remove nicks, but I don't need to for flatness.

[Stan Suther]

I would use southern yellow pine as well. Extremely hard and will take a beating. And it's readily available at places like Lowes and HD.

I see you are in Columbia, SC. I'm up the road near Charlotte and have been looking for southern yellow pine at Lowe's and HD. Funny thing. They rarely stock it in this area. I found some at an independent lumber yard. Seems like the big boxes are all about "white wood" which could be white pine, spruce, or fir, none of which is very stout. I think it's odd that they make it hard to find southern yellow pine in the south:confused:

[Don C Peterson]

Same here in the Kansas City area. I can get Douglas Fir, but the only Yellow Pine is treated. Douglass Fir it is then...

[Mike Steinhilper]

I see you are in Columbia, SC. I'm up the road near Charlotte and have been looking for southern yellow pine at Lowe's and HD. Funny thing. They rarely stock it in this area. I found some at an independent lumber yard. Seems like the big boxes are all about "white wood" which could be white pine, spruce, or fir, none of which is very stout. I think it's odd that they make it hard to find southern yellow pine in the south:confused:

Yes, I was in Lowe's yesterday, and most of the 2x4 stuff was fir I think. However there was all kinds of SYP in the larger dimensions... 2x12x16, etc. Personally I don't know how I would even get at it to pick my boards, let alone transport it. I'm leaning toward a couple 3/4 plywood laminated together with a nice edge all the way around.

[Dan Barr]

Hey Alex,

As for the using of the SYP bench; do you find it any different than a hardwood bench? does it seem softer when chopping out a mortise or during any other "mallet" type operation?

ciao,

dan

[Alex Yeilding]

As for the using of the SYP bench; do you find it any different than a hardwood bench? does it seem softer when chopping out a mortise or during any other "mallet" type operation?
Unfortunately, I don't have the basis for comparison. My first bench (still my portable power tool and assembly bench) is a solid core door on framing lumber base.

Subjectively, I don't think it is as hard as many common furniture hardwoods, but it is much harder than the wood normally sold as "SPF" at the Borg. I get no bounce or give when chopping on it.

[James Mittlefehldt]

While doing my Saturday morning meditation, fresh coffee in hand sunk deep in my favourite armchair something occurred to me regarding bench tops. That is, that in many traditional tops the front section was thick and the back 2/3's or half was not so much.

Garret Hack's bench is that way, as is Mike Dunbar, the Dominy benches and the Shaker benches. Now correct me if I am wrong, I did not recall seeing that aspect discussed in Schwarz's boook unless it is buried in the text as I have only skimmed it so far. That was also something that was mentioned to me when I built my bench eight years ago, that only the front portion needed to be real heavy and thick, the rest not so much.

The Hancock Shaker village bench has a strip of hard pine for the rear section, oak or chestnut for the centre, both about 1 3/4 inches thick then a 16 ich section in the front made from beech or maple and 4 inches thick.

If noting else that adds more possibilites if you happen to have a a limited selection of hardwood that could make a part of a top you would be in good company should you decide to build that way.

I can hear you all now, oh great more choices to consider. I am going back now to Schwarz's book to see if he mentions that anywhere.

[harry strasil]

My demo bench top is Basswood, real soft but light so it can be moved around easily. What a thick bench does is work like a blacksmiths anvil, its used as a solid surface to work on. The solidity of the top is what makes it work well for chopping and such. It more or less has no spring to it due to its thickness. Most neander work is done on only the front quarter of the bench and/or at the vise.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=38637&highlight=bench

[James Mittlefehldt]

I recall seeing that thread when you first put it up, but had forgotten, good one Harry.

I am thinking of making a secind bench that would be for planing and mortising that sort of stuff, and I am thinking maybe 29 inches high. I have some really dry and thick white ash and while reading the various workbench studies that thick front occurred to me. I am nnot sure why the Schwarz book does not discuss it , but I think it is worth a look.

Once again thanks for the reference Harry.

[Matt Martyn]

Matt,

If you haven't already, check out Workbenches: From Design and Theory to Construction and Use By Christopher Schwarz. In my opinion, it's really the workbench book and it has lots of great advice for building workbenches, especially wood.

It may help you out. If not, get it anyways...it's a pretty good book even without needing it :)

Hi Thomas

Thanks for the book recomendation. I have seen it mentioned here a few times now, and it sounds like a good one. Will deffinetely look into getting a copy!

[Matt Martyn]

White or Black Spruce, actually the stuff has I believe a fairly high strength to weight ratio, and the better mills usually take the =tiwisted stuff from the kilns after drying amd make pulp for paper out of it. It has been used for years and is the material of choice, or should I say availability hereabouts.

MAtt;
If you are in a part of Ontario that has sawmills and such nearby, you might be able to get red pine which is harder and better suited for a workbench than Spruce construction lumber, you might even be able to get it in 16/4 size, I am thinking particularily of North Bay and environs.

James,

I never really thought to use red pine, good idea! I'm not really near any saw mills, but do visit some occasonally, so I will deffinately keep an eye out for some of that. Thanks.

[Mike Steinhilper]

what about a layer or two of 3/4" birch plywood on top of my door benchtop? Then edge banded. That would be 3+ inches, and give me better material for drilling my dog holes right? Any issues come to mind with that kind of bench top?

[Dan Barr]

one layer on top and one on bottom.

ciao,

dan

[Mike Steinhilper]

7 years ago I built my bench top out of 3 layers of MDF and the top and sides are covered in 1/4" tempered hardboard. Works fantastic! The size of mine is 32" x 72" and did a 6" grid of 3/4" bench dog holes covering the whole top. Sounds excessive but with some bench cleats made to fit anywhere I see fit it works great for squaring up projects.

Only problem I had was I designed it to sit on an open frame and I misjudged the allowable distances for the material and it sagged a little bit after a year, but I changed the base and it straightened itself right back out.

MDF is a great product but it has its limitations too.

Matt.

Matt, what did you reinforce with?

[Louis Rucci]

If I may interject. I made a work bench for my garage a few years ago using MDF. It's three layers of 3/4", but the bottom layer I just attached strips around the perimeter.

I used plain old contact cement and fitted a removable hardwood piece on top. It sure is heavy, but it works.

[James Carmichael]

The HDs in my area have cull bins in their lumber section that nearly always contain cutoffs of 2x8 - 2x12 #2 SYP in 3'-6' lengths for 50-cents apiece. I took home over 20bf the other day for $2.50. They usually have some pretty good sheets of MDF, too.

[Don C Peterson]

The discussion of MDF got me curious, particularly the part about how much stiffness lamination adds to MDF. So I decided to conduct a simple experiment. I happened to have some 1/2" MDF scraps laying around so I cut some 2" wide strips 24" long. I took three of them and stacked them up (no glue) then I glued three of them together (using Titebond III) forming a cube 2"x1 1/2" and 24" long. Then I took the two and put them across an 18" gap and put some weight on them (I used two 1 gallon water bottles as the weights) and then measured the deflection before and after the weight was applied.

I also used a 1"x1 1/2" piece of Douglas Fir as kind of a control. Now, I was just measuring the deflection (sag) with a metal ruler since I don't have any fancy dial gauges or anything like that, I also only used the three samples, so my experiment is far from being ready for peer review... However, what I found is that the Douglas Fir had no measurable sag, the glued MDF sagged about 1/8" and the unglued MDF sagged about 5/32". So the glue did add some stiffness, but not much.

It would be interesting to see what the results would be after prolonged pressure, but I needed the area to get some work done on a real project. My guess is that the sagging would continue to get worse, and that it would be somewhat of a vicious cycle. As the sag pulled the fibers apart the MDF would lose more rigidity, making the sag worse...

These results seem to confirm my initial thought that laminating MDF will not produce the same kind of stiffness gains that laminating long fibers does (plywood, fiberglass, carbon fiber, etc...) because of the inherent characteristics of the material itself. The lack of a grain in MDF means that laminating it will produce fairly limited benefits.

The conclusion I draw is that MDF benchtops, regardless of how they are built up, really need support, or they will sag. I'm NOT trying to make the case that MDF can't make a good bench, but for me the extra effort, complexity and expense involved in building properly with MDF seems to be counterproductive, particularly when compared to SYP or Douglas Fir.

[Greg Muller]

Y'know, this got thinking...
To save cost, could a top be made predominantly with SYP, but have full length strips (full depth and maybe 4" wide with the holes centered) of hardwood where the rows of dog holes are going? I could use hardwood for the edge banding also. Are there any glue-up issues by doing that? It would have a racing-stripe look to it, but I'm not concerned with that so much...

It may add some stability as well...

It would save some $$$...

Greg

[Ray Schafer]

How do you attach the masonite so that you can remove and replace?

[Mike Steinhilper]

Greg, the entire top can be made of SYP, the reason I tried the mdf/plywood is because I got lazy and thought it would be easier. So much for that idea. And Don, I wish I had known about your experiment. I would have made the entire top of laminated plywood. Now I've got my MDF sandwich to deal with.

[Stan Suther]

I see you are in Columbia, SC. I'm up the road near Charlotte and have been looking for southern yellow pine at Lowe's and HD. Funny thing. They rarely stock it in this area. I found some at an independent lumber yard. Seems like the big boxes are all about "white wood" which could be white pine, spruce, or fir, none of which is very stout. I think it's odd that they make it hard to find southern yellow pine in the south:confused:

Just to update and correct, I checked my local Lowe's on-line for SYP, and they said they didn't carry it there. I called the store and asked about it, and they said they didn't carry it there. I eventually went to the store, and found, what do you know, they carry it there, at least in 2x10 and 2x12 dimensions. Chris S recommends buying the wider stuff anyway because it will generally be straighter with fewer knots. So, I'll be looking for help there to pick through the pile for my bench.

[James Carmichael]

I eventually went to the store, and found, what do you know, they carry it there, at least in 2x10 and 2x12 dimensions.

Laughing with you, not at you, Stan. I've had much the same experience with the big boxes of having to educate their employees. Unless you have a SKU, it's nearly impossible to find out anything over the phone.

Maybe I'm to picky, I've checked out SYP 2x8s through 2x12at multiple Lowes and HDs and found found little if any I would rate clear enough for a workbench top. Also, and this is just a thumb-in-the-wind analysis, but the "Top Choice" brand SYP boards at Lowes looked as if they were still awfully wet.

A local yard sells ash shorts (6-7') for $1.60 pbf, I'm thinking of an SYP base and ash top.