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Augusto Orosco
02-12-2008, 2:32 PM
I should add some background to make this clearer… my apologies if it gets too long.

I am a one man shop, not even a weekend warrior (maybe an “every other weekend warrior”), so only one power tool + dust collection can be used simultaneously. My shop is an attached 2 car unheated garage with concrete floors and 8’ ceilings. No plumbing or forced air into the garage.

After reading all the info here about the dangers of dust, I now always work with the garage doors and windows open and wear a cartridge respirator at all times while in the shop. For better “chip” collection, I am thinking of a 2HP DC that will vent outside (lucky me, I can vent out). The idea is that the DC would control chips and the open doors, windows and respirator should protect me from the fines. Maybe an air-cleaner will be added later.

So, now to the electrical issue:

Currently, all I have are two 15amp 110V circuits; one feeds the lighting, the garage door motors and one receptacle; the other one feeds exclusively one receptacle. The electrical panel in my house is 200amp, located in a basement wall adjacent to the garage (so, the shortest run from the panel to the garage is just the thickness of the wall). The panel has plenty of free slots.

Ideally, I would install a sub-panel, many breakers, outlets, and the like, but I don’t plan on staying in this house for more than just a few years; so I don’t want to invest too much money in a set-up that I will be leaving behind.

With the current set-up, the electrical demands of the lights, the shop-vac and small portable power tools are taken care off (no tripped breakers yet). So, I need to provide for the future machines.

I think that the maximum electrical demand would happen when running:

A) The 2HP 220v DC plus large 3HP 220V machine (e.g. a table saw)

Or

B) The 2HP 220v DC plus a large 110V machine (e.g. a 15amp router)

This is my initial thought: Install one 40amp 220v circuit, which will take care of (A) and one 20amp 110v breaker, which will finish to take care of (B).

The point that I am most unsure about is the 40amp breaker. Probably two 20amp 220v circuits would be better, but probably also more expensive? I am on tight budget here, so I want to reduce costs, but never at the expense of safety.

Any thoughts about the setup? Any ball-park ideas about costs? Do you know a good electrician that serves the Boston area (south shore)?

Thanks, and sorry for the lengthy post!


P.S. I forgot to add that I know very little about electricity, so everything will be done by a licensed electrician. But to have input in advance from some of you, will make me much better informed when I ask for estimates and discuss options with the electrician.

Anthony Whitesell
02-12-2008, 2:48 PM
Since you don't plan on staying more than a few years (I said that too, seven years ago), I would do the least amount possible, but don't short change yourself. With that said, I would run 1 dedicated 220VAC circuit for the dust collector and one multi-outlet 220VAC circuit for the tools. With this you won't ever have to worry about tripping a breaker due to the combined amperage of the DC and a tool. Since the lights are already wired you don't have to worry about a circuit for them. I would run one (or maybe two) 15 amp 110VAC circuit(s) for the smaller tools.

Most people will suggest that you put the outlets up higher (52"). After last night, I suggest that you put them just an inch or two below the height of the table saw bed. Once upon a time I had the standard height (~18") outlets, they were a pain to get to and not easy to see if the tool was plugged in. On someone's suggestion I raised them up. Last night I was ripping a piece of the tablesaw and happened to catch the cord and unplugged the saw while it was running. Luckily I didn't shorten the wire when I moved up the outlet, and plan on moving them down just below the height of the tablesaw (and the bandsaw, planer, and jointer); to a height that will be protected by the equipment itself.

Chris Padilla
02-12-2008, 2:58 PM
Well, for starters, I would just make the 240V circuit a 30 A one (#10 wire). You won't ever need more than that from a 240V circuit I'm pretty sure. I'm not sure I've ever heard of a 240V/40A plug...at least not from NEMA. Google "nema plug chart" and you'll see what I mean. That will cost you two slots in your panel. You may wish to visit your local Home Depot or Lowes and just peruse the different breakers they have and you'll get some ideas how to best spend your money for breakers in your panel. There are lots of choices.

Augusto Orosco
02-12-2008, 3:12 PM
Thanks, Steve and Chris... that saved me the embarrassment of asking the electrician for a 40amp breaker:eek:.

So, it should be two 30amp (#10 wire), one for the DC and one for the 220 machines? Why not two 20amp circuits? All the high HP machines I have looked at (never more than 3HP @ 220; can’t fathom ever going higher) stated a suggested 20amp circuit, for motors that are rated as drawing between 13 and 18amps.

Chris Padilla
02-12-2008, 3:26 PM
240V/20A is fine if you really feel you won't need anything larger. Overall, it'll be a *tad* cheaper running #12 over #10 but if you are having a pro wire this for you, I bet the cost won't be much different. Ask him for 240V/20A, get the quote, and then ask for 240V/30A.

Anthony Whitesell
02-12-2008, 3:32 PM
Cesar, you'll need to plan for worst case. 18 amp and 18 amp is 36 amps. I think you're your better off with the two 20 amp circuits.

I only have 110VAC available to me, and more often than not I would trip the 20 amp breaker trying to start my 1HP TS while my 1HP DC was running. Obviously, the DC and TS need to run at the same time.

Peter Quinn
02-12-2008, 3:36 PM
Sub panel in garage is the best approach. Given short wire run to main panel also the most costly. Sucks leaving the garage to reset a breaker should it ever be neccessary. Nice having a manual disconnect in the shop for maintenance without having to unplug machines (mine are all on twist locks)

Either way, I'd seperate the garage door opener from the lights. Garage door opener=1 15A circuit, lights and a utility receptical=1-15A circuit. 110V powertools at 15A=1 20A circuit, 220V Dust collector= 1 20A or 1 30A circuit, depends on the machine, large stationary 220V machines=1 30A up to 3HP (table saw takes about 23Amps continuous if I recall corectly) Fused manual disconects for each 220v circuit at point of use provides decent circuit protection and convienence. Costs about $40 per disconnect. I would not run one 50A220v circuit for multiple simultaneous machine use; wire and breakers are just not that expensive.

PS I am not a professional electritian, but I play one at home!

Rod Sheridan
02-12-2008, 4:22 PM
Hi Cesar, if it were me I would probably go with the following;

1) A dedicated 240V circuit for the dust collector, either 15A or 20A depending upon the motor full load amperes. Ignore horsepower in discussions, the full load currents of motors can vary as much as 50% depending upon the motor.

2) A 15A or 20A 120/240V feed to all the other receptacles in the shop depending upon the motor rating of your largest tool, probably your table saw.

This would give you two 120V 15A or 20A circuits for 120V tools, and a 15A or 20A 240V circuit for your machinery.

Unless you purchase a 5 HP motor on a machine (not needed at home), or you have a really inneficient, low power factor motor, you will be fine.

That means only two runs of wire, and two double pole circuit breakers. No need for a sub panel or disconnect switches.

Regards, Rod.

Jim Thiel
02-12-2008, 4:26 PM
My shop is an attached 2 car unheated garage with concrete floors and 8’ ceilings.

Ideally, I would install a sub-panel, many breakers, outlets, and the like, but I don’t plan on staying in this house for more than just a few years; so I don’t want to invest too much money in a set-up that I will be leaving behind.



Two thoughts here: It's a shop space, not a utility closet. Put in the outlets so you can work without tripping over extension cords, or needing to work at a certain location because that is the only place the router will reach.

Second, a house is not an investment. It is shelter for your loved ones and things. The added value of a fully electrified shop space is and should be worth the initial costs. When the next guy walks through the house, moaning about trimming the bushes and he doesn't like your flowers, everything will stand still when he sees your shop space. He will see himself in that space, using his tools, and wondering out load why his wife can't see the potential in the lime green tiles in the foyer.

Jim

Augusto Orosco
02-12-2008, 4:46 PM
Two thoughts here: It's a shop space, not a utility closet. Put in the outlets so you can work without tripping over extension cords, or needing to work at a certain location because that is the only place the router will reach.

Second, a house is not an investment. It is shelter for your loved ones and things. The added value of a fully electrified shop space is and should be worth the initial costs. When the next guy walks through the house, moaning about trimming the bushes and he doesn't like your flowers, everything will stand still when he sees your shop space. He will see himself in that space, using his tools, and wondering out load why his wife can't see the potential in the lime green tiles in the foyer.

Jim

Thanks, Jim. I realize now that my statement regarding the "subpanel, breakers and outlets" was misleading. The outlets will go in; I am not planning on having a web of extension cords around the shop. My issue was with the number or circuits to install (and my personal decision of not installing a sub panel).

I also love my family very much; and that's why I will make sure that whatever I end up doing will not jeopardize their safety in any way. I don't expect to make money once I move. If I do, great, if I don't that's fine, too. All I want for the future is an even better house for my loved ones (and a bigger space for my shop!:D) I have been thinking about my electrical needs for quite a while already. Every dollar I spend in wiring is a dollar I can't spend in wood/tools and viceversa. I am just trying to strike a balance I feel happy with.

Wade Lippman
02-12-2008, 6:57 PM
The cheapest thing to do is to change the circuit with the single outlet on it to 240v. You won't be able to run your 2hp DC and 3HP TS, but it will buy you some extra capacity for $20.

Jack Porter
02-12-2008, 8:23 PM
Hey Cesar,
I am just outside the boston area and am in the process of the same project. A friend of mine is a licensed electrican and didn't mind me pulling wires myself and installing outlets and EMT conduit (I've done this on other projects). The most expensive part of the project for me was the #6 wire for the subpanel, about 50 ft, but you don't have this issue. It sounds like our shops are somewhat similar, I run 2HP DC, with either TS, BS, router, etc. and I don't forsee any issues with my under-construction setup.

I'm putting in an 8 slot subpanel one circuit 20amp 220 for the DC, one circuit 110 20amp for contractor TS and BS neither of which would be on at the same time, and a third circuit 20amp 110 with 5 outlets for various handtools etc. Lights and one additonal outlet are on a direct feed from the main 200amp sevice.

This would have cost me about 700bucks, but doing a lot of the work myself, I'm only paying my buddy to install the subpanel, connection to 3 circuits at subpanel, and conneciton to main box.

Expect to pay an electricain about 100 buck an hour in this area plus materials. Shoot me a PM and I'll give you my friends info.

Sounds like you could do this project for a reasonable price using Rod's suggestions. If you don't mind exposed conduit and surface mounted outlets, an electricain can throw those in a heck of a lot faster than snaking wire through finished walls and ceilings. Also it's something you can probably do yourself and save a few bucks.

Steve Rozmiarek
02-12-2008, 8:26 PM
Ok I can't resist, as per the moving electrical ?'s to a seperate place thread, are you all licensed electricians and has all your advice been substantiated, in writting, by all pertinant agencies with oversight, and has the disclaimer statement been signed in triplicate?:D

Jack Porter
02-12-2008, 8:38 PM
Ok I can't resist, as per the moving electrical ?'s to a seperate place thread, are you all licensed electricians and has all your advice been substantiated, in writting, by all pertinant agencies with oversight, and has the disclaimer statement been signed in triplicate?:D

All signed off by the building inspector, oh wait, I needed a permit?:D

Augusto Orosco
02-12-2008, 9:12 PM
Ok I can't resist, as per the moving electrical ?'s to a seperate place thread, are you all licensed electricians and has all your advice been substantiated, in writting, by all pertinant agencies with oversight, and has the disclaimer statement been signed in triplicate?:D

Don't worry, Steve, I will not hold anyone here accountable and everything will be up to code and inspected afterwards :)


Hey Cesar,
Expect to pay an electricain about 100 buck an hour in this area plus materials. Shoot me a PM and I'll give you my friends info.


Jack, thanks!. PM Sent.



2) A 15A or 20A 120/240V feed to all the other receptacles in the shop depending upon the motor rating of your largest tool, probably your table saw.


Rod, I am probably revealing my total ignorance with this regard by asking, but could you clarify? Are you saying that it is possible to run a 120/240 feed from one double pole breaker? That would make things much easier <edited: I get it now... just found it after checking my DIY wiring books>

Joe Witts
02-12-2008, 11:24 PM
Hey Cesar:

Ok - couple of things here:

1 - They DO make 40 amp breakers - they DON'T make a 40 amp receptacle.
2 - You CANNOT (legally) run single 30A 240V circuit and then branch off from one receptacle to another - you need dedicated circuits for each 240V circuit.
3 - Running 2 - 20A 240V circuits requires minimum 12Ga wiring for each circuit.

Now that said, and seeing as your breaker panel is not far away and you have plenty of space - I would install a SINGLE 60A 240V breaker and run #8 wire from the breaker to a new 60A subpanel - that way you can then run separate circuits for both of your 240V plugs and also all of your 120V needs as well by running EMT to wherever you want a plug - all in all - you can do most of the EMT working and running wires yourself (#12 from subpanel to 220V 20A receptacles and #14 to the other 20A 120V receptacles you need) - you could even wire the plugs etc, I would just leave the breaker panel work to the pro's....this should save you.......and gives you plenty of flexibilty with your shop needs for the future!! You may not think you will need extra.....but there is always a new tool that catches your eye and you MUST have it!!

Good Luck!

Joe

Don Abele
02-12-2008, 11:38 PM
Cesar, you've asked what has become one of the controversial topics here at SMC which is why Steve was poking fun at it.

The question of multiple outlets on a 240 line has come up many times and I remember it quite clearly because I do have more than one outlet per breaker on my 240 lines.

The NEC allows it BUT local inspectors may not. Each inspector is "allowed" to interpret/enforce the code as they see fit. Often times the "single appliance" per 240 line is confused because when it comes to your dryer or stove, they MUST be on a dedicated circuit. This restriction does not apply to outlets that will be used for power tools.

Your best bet, as you are doing, is to hire a licensed electrician who will pull a permit (required in MA) for the work and HE will be responsible to the inspector to ensure it is up to code.

Be well,

Doc

Richard Jones
02-13-2008, 4:30 AM
"Your best bet, as you are doing, is to hire a licensed electrician who will pull a permit (required in MA) for the work and HE will be responsible to the inspector to ensure it is up to code."

From a code enforcement type, I gotta say a big AMEN.

Also, keep in mind:

1. Code is MINIMUM, not always The Best.
2. Insurance companies get upset when they find you did wiring without a permit and they are supposed to be digging in "their" pockets to pay up a claim.
3. Not sure how you're going to get around the requirement for GFCI receptacles in that garage, unless your code-head uses the exception for "dedicated equipment". I usually allow this for freezers, but darn little else. I'll have to rethink that about a shop conversion. Concrete is really a good ground, especially if it's damp.......
:D

Joe Witts is telling you straight, the subpanel is the way to go, for sure. I have both my lathe and B/S, both 230v motors, on the same circuit. (Your T/S sounds like a larger draw) Neither draw anything close to 20a in real life, altho' I rarely have them on at the same time.

rich in va

Rob Russell
02-13-2008, 10:32 AM
A couple of things:

I'd install the subpanel. I agree with the comments that a garage wired for a workshop will add to the value of the house, especially if the wiring looks professional. Even surface mount conduit looks good if it's done neatly.

A couple of general comments about circuits.

40 amp circuit breakers are most certainly available. Unless you have a machine that's got a 7.5 HP, 240v single-phase motor - you don't need a 40 amp circuit. If you need a circuit for a welder, you might need a 40 amp circuit.
For circuits 30 amps and up, you can not use 15 and 20 amp receptacles. 30 amp circuits must have 30 amp receptacles. I won't bother listing the higher amperage requirements. This is from Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings for Various Size Circuits.
The idea of running a 20 amp, 240v circuit with a neutral so you use it either as a 120v or 240v circuit is good. There is one problem. All of your new 120v, 15 and 20 amp receptacles must be GFI-protected. You could buy a 20 amp, 240v GFCI breaker and achieve that. Otherwise, you'd need to use individual GFCI receptacles for the 120v outlets.Joe - the information you posted is incorrect.

You CAN run a single 30amp, 240v circuit and then "branch off" from that. You're just restricted to using 30 amp receptacles.
You do NOT need to run dedicated 240v circuits. It is absolutely acceptable to have multiple 240v receptacles on a given 240v circuit.
You CAN NOT run a 60 amp subpanel on #8. #8 will have a maximum ampacity of 50 amps. You need to run #6 for a 60 amp subpanel.A comment on local code enforcement. Inspectors are not allowed to make up their own rules. Each area has an AHJ - Authority Having Jurisdiction - and a set of adopted codes. The inspectors can enforce your installation to whatever code is adopted for your area - but nothing more. If you have an inspector that starts to make demands of an electrical installation that go beyond the code, I'd politely ask to see the code section the inspector is basing his/her requirements on. You can plead that you want to see the code so you "make sure you get it right."

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

Jude Tuliszewski
02-13-2008, 11:16 AM
Just a couple of things, first: WHAT ROB SAID, (except I thought 50 amp. needed 6ga wire?). Do the sub-panel. You will be glad you did when it is all said and done, and it gives you more flexibility. Another good source for electrical info is Mike Holts forum, do a search to find it. As for not staying in the house long term, you may not recoup the money that you put into the shop electric upgrade, but I agree that it will make it a good selling point when the time comes to sell. Just my .02

Rob Russell
02-13-2008, 11:31 AM
... except I thought 50 amp. needed 6ga wire?

It depends on what type of conductors you run.

You could run #8 copper THHN/THWN (individual conductors). Those conductors have an ampacity of 50 amps.
#8 copper NM cable (aka "Romex") only has an ampacity of 40 amps, so - if you want to run NM cable - you would need #6.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

Walt Stevens
02-13-2008, 11:54 AM
Cesar:
I have a similar situation with a 2-car garage sized workshop attached to the house. When I bought the house, there were two 110VAC circuits in the room (15A and 20A). I wanted to get two 220VAC circuits installed with wire pulled from the basement panel under the house. I have 200A service for the house, but only a 30 breaker box (for some reason) which is full. The electrician convinced me that it would cost just a little more (!) to install a 60A subpanel in the shop, switch the existing circuits to that panel, and run new circuits in the shop with exposed conduit. The feed for the new subpanel plugs into the two main panel slots freed up by moving the existing circuits. It took the electrician several hours to do this, and it cost $1100 (ouch!) including running two 220VAC and one additional 110VAC circuits from the shop panel. I wish I had the knowledge to do it myself.

You should get an estimate for two 220VAC circuits versus a subpanel. The difference in price might not be as much as you think.

Rick Christopherson
02-13-2008, 12:24 PM
I disagree with the need for a subpanel in your application. The only benefit to putting this in is to make it easier to reset a breaker. To date, in 12 years I have never tripped a breaker in the workshop.

I agree with Rod Sheridan's posting the most. The only thing I would add is that I recommend using 20 amp circuits for your 120 volt outlets. The garage door opener(s) should be on a separate circuit, and I "think" you can have these be a 15 amp circuit, but this might have changed.

For a small shop, the biggest problem is not having an outlet where you need one. For that reason, it is good to put in a bunch of outlets, but you don't need a bunch of separate circuits.

Rob Russell
02-13-2008, 12:40 PM
Cesar,

Is your garage finished (sheetrocked) or unfinished?

Rob

Augusto Orosco
02-13-2008, 12:46 PM
Firstly, let me thank everyone for the replies. They have been very helpful and a great learning experience. So, I will see how much a subpanel will cost vs. running the circuit, and will try to squeeze it in my budget. If I go that route, I will probably end up with a nicely wired shop with no power tools, though :eek:... back to saving lunch money for more tools, I guess :D.

So, this is what I am planning to ask for in an estimate; please feel free to chime in and suggest changes/point mistakes (particularly in the 240/110 circuits; I am not so sure I am getting it right).

Estimate for a 60amp sub-Panel

Location Description: Residential house, single owner

Garage: 2 car attached garage, concrete floors, un-heated. Walls are finished (sheetrock, no exposed joists). 8 foot ceilings. Side walls are 23 feet long. Back Wall is 25 feet long. Front wall is the entrance with two motorized garage doors. Lighting and garage doors are already operative, fed by a dedicated 15amp 110V circuit from the main panel. Nothing will be done to this circuit.

Main Panel: 200amp, located in a basement wall adjacent to the garage (so, the shortest run from the panel to the garage is just the thickness of the wall plus height differential). The panel has plenty of free slots.

Job-Description:

Install 60amp sub-panel
Run ONE 20amp, 240v circuit with a neutral so as to be used either as a 120v or a 240v circuit. This circuit will feed one 110V receptacle and one 240V receptacle, both located about the middle of the back wall. The total run from the sub-panel to the receptacle should be about 35 feet.
Run ONE 20amp, 240v circuit with a neutral so as to be used it either as a 120v or 240v circuits This circuit will feed:

Three 110V receptacles (one for each side wall, one for the longer back wall). The total run from the sub-panel to the furthest receptacle should be about 60 feet.
Two 240V receptacles. One for each side wall. Total run also about 60 feet.


Exposed conduit can be used.
Either GFCI breakers or receptacles can be used, depending on cost.Code Compliant

Work must be performed up-to code and pass inspection I will also ask how much the same description would cost, but wiring directly to the main panel without installing a subpanel. That should give me an idea of the price differential so I can make an informed decision.

Augusto Orosco
02-13-2008, 12:51 PM
Cesar,

Is your garage finished (sheetrocked) or unfinished?

Rob

Hi Rob. My garage is finished, but not insulated. Just as you were asking, I was writing a more detailed description of it, you can read it in my latest post!

Brian Triplett
02-13-2008, 12:52 PM
I agree with the sub panel idea, I was in the same place you are now three years ago, one circuit for the lights and garage door opener and one outlet that was on the outside outlet circuit. Now that I added my sub panel, I can upgrade equipment and not worry about getting power to it. I upgraded to a 3 hp TS (220), 2 hp dc (220), and then a 3 hp bandsaw (220) within those years and all I had to do was run a new wire and add a breaker. I also added three 110 circuits for the air compressor, additional lights, heater,etc. Again the sub panel lets you grow into your hobby. Just my two cents.

Brian

Rob Russell
02-13-2008, 1:03 PM
Cesar,

The cheapest approach for this project is probably to have an electrician install the subpanel and then do all the rest of the work yourself. I know that you have little or no experience with wiring, but all of us did when we started.

Having a subpanel means that you can completely kill power to all this new wiring when you're working in it without affecting the lighting or garage door opener. That means you could take your time and ask questions as needed without fear of leaving your garage door opener dead for periods of time.

On the combo 120v/240v circuits, the cheapest way to do those is probably to use individual GFI receptacles. A 2-pole, 20-amp GFI breaker will likely cost more than $100 (I just checked). It's definitely cheaper to use a standard 2-pole 20 amp breaker and individual GFI receptacles @ $15/receptacle.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

Chris Padilla
02-13-2008, 1:16 PM
Rob,

I dunno...what about bending all that EMT? I still can't do that very well although I tried only once or twice. :) I guess he could go with the plastic EMT? They sell fittings for those but it is pricey....

Too bad all that drywall is in the way...ever thought of cutting some of it out to insulated your garage, Cesar? ;) haha By the time you leave the house, you might have saved up enough money to actually USE the shop! ;) Bascially, I did this to my garage: gutted it, rewired the whole thing, insulated the whole thing, re-sheetrocked. It was a ton of work and cost some money and took a lot of time but I'm pretty happy about it...loads of outlets and a garage whose temperature doesn't change as much as it used to.

Good Luck!

Augusto Orosco
02-13-2008, 1:21 PM
Cesar,

The cheapest approach for this project is probably to have an electrician install the subpanel and then do all the rest of the work yourself. I know that you have little or no experience with wiring, but all of us did when we started.



I totally agree with you, Rob. By turning off the sub-panel I could work without fear of electrocuting myself. I am starting to read more about electricity and actually find the project quite interesting. Unfortunately, where I live, I am told that all wiring/plumbing must be done with a permit and the work performed by a licensed electrician/plumber. So, I don't know where that leaves me... Some ideas come to mind (like doing the job backwards: do the circuits first and let the electrician connect the sub panel last; signing for the full job if he deems it worth of code standards); but I don't know if that's acceptable either

Anthony Whitesell
02-13-2008, 1:26 PM
I know adding a sub-panel will require permits. Be sure to inquire with the contractor who will be responsible for acquiring and paying for (if there's a fee) the permits. Also there should be some hold back in the contract until the work has been inspected by the building inspector or code enforcement official and passed. ie., the contract should specify some amount of money that will not be paid to the contractor until the installation has passed code inspection.

Rob Russell
02-13-2008, 1:29 PM
I totally agree with you, Rob. By turning off the sub-panel I could work without fear of electrocuting myself. I am starting to read more about electricity and actually find the project quite interesting. Unfortunately, where I live, I am told that all wiring/plumbing must be done with a permit and the work performed by a licensed electrician/plumber. So, I don't know where that leaves me... Some ideas come to mind (like doing the job backwards: do the circuits first and let the electrician connect the sub panel last; signing for the full job if he deems it worth of code standards); but I don't know if that's acceptable either

Most areas allow homeowners to do electrical/plumbing work on their primary residence. The key is that you need to own the home, not be a renter. That's something to check with your local municipality - start with the Building Department.

I'd do all of this under a permit. If nothing else, it protects you from code changes between now and when you sell your house.

Anthony Whitesell
02-13-2008, 1:32 PM
Don't believe what others say. Ask the building inspector/code enforcement official. When I moved into town, I asked the buidling inspector what work requires a permit and what does not. In my town, I can modify the existing wiring without a permit and that includes modifications to the breaker box. I cannot add any electrical sub-systems (ie., sub-panel).

Augusto Orosco
02-13-2008, 1:40 PM
Most areas allow homeowners to do electrical/plumbing work on their primary residence. The key is that you need to own the home, not be a renter. That's something to check with your local municipality - start with the Building Department.

I'd do all of this under a permit. If nothing else, it protects you from code changes between now and when you sell your house.

I just called them. Apparently, it doesn't matter if I own the house. As soon as they hear "electrical", they say the same thing. I finally got an inspector on the phone and he reiterated it. He said "absolutely everything electrical must be done with a permit by an electrician". I thought that was a little extreme, so just to annoy him (yeah, shouldn't have, but I was a little frustrated... at least I didn't identify myself ;)) I asked him: "So what if I have a cracked outlet and I want to replace it? I need a permit and a licensed electrician, too?"

At least he laughed and said.. "well, nobody is going to tell if you do that yourself!".

Chris Padilla
02-13-2008, 1:41 PM
Permits? We don't need no stinkin' permits.... ;)

just kidding...probably should get permits although I did not when I redid my garage...I may "pay for it" someday but I'll deal with it then....

Don Abele
02-13-2008, 1:42 PM
I am told that all wiring/plumbing must be done with a permit and the work performed by a licensed electrician/plumber.

Cesar, you are right on with this. Mass has some very specific requirements when it comes to electrical and plumbing work. ALL electrical work MUST have a permit - that even includes changing out an electrical outlet! And yes, I verified this with both my local building department and then verified that against the Mass State Building Code.

With that said though, my local inspector says that he only requires the work to be performed by a licensed electrician when it involves adding additional services to the main panel. He allowed me to change out my outlets and move lights without a license, but I did need to pull a permit.

When I replaced my old fuse box with a new 200 amp service panel, I hired an electrician who pulled the permit, made the final connection, and had to inspection performed. I had to call several electricians before I found one that would do that. Most said they were going to do all the work themselves. With the one I ended up with, he said I could do it all myself but if he needed to fix anything I did wrong, it would run $100/hour for labor to correct my mistakes.

Oddly enough, and this is OT, when it comes to plumbing you also have to be licensed and pull permits EXCEPT for your heating system. When I installed all new baseboard heating in the basement I did it myself and without a permit - and that was perfectly OK with my inspector.

Be well,

Doc

EDIT: you guys made a few replys while I was typing this. Cesar, sounds like you got the exact information from your local guy as I thought you would!

Chris Padilla
02-13-2008, 1:53 PM
[the Good Ole Boys arrive late]
Jake (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000004/): My name is Jacob Stein. I'm from the American Federation of Music. I've been sent to see if you gentlemen are carrying your permits.
Tucker McElroy (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0621008/): Our what?
Jake (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000004/): Your union cards. May I see your cards please?
Tucker McElroy (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0621008/): Well, suppose we ain't got no union cards and go in there and start playin' anyway? Whatcha gonna do about that? You gonna stop us, Stein? Ha. You're gonna look pretty funny tryin' to eat corn on the cob with no teeth!


Sorry, couldn't resist attempting to inject some humor here from one of the GREATEST movies of all time: The Blues Brothers.

:D

Augusto Orosco
02-13-2008, 1:55 PM
he said I could do it all myself but if he needed to fix anything I did wrong, it would run $100/hour for labor to correct my mistakes.

Hey Don, I guess the $100/hour question is "how many mistakes did you make?" :rolleyes: no wait, rather: "can I have that guy's name?"

Don Abele
02-13-2008, 1:59 PM
Hey Don, I guess the $100/hour question is "how many mistakes did you make?" :rolleyes: no wait, rather: "can I have that guy's name?"

I've done a lot of electrical work, including panels - so I didn't make any.

I'll send you a PM about the electrician.

Be well,

Doc

Rick Christopherson
02-13-2008, 6:19 PM
You are only adding two circuits and the main panel is right behind the garage wall, so I will reiterate my original posting and state that this is a poor example of when to add a subpanel.

The red flags about the previous advice should be that no one is explaining why they recommend a subpanel, only that you should do it. If no one can give you a legitimate reason for putting in the subpanel, that should be a clue that it is not sound advise to begin with.

Conversely, I will explain my reasons. The distance between the main panel and subpanel is trivial, and located in the same wall. Number two, you are not adding a lot of extra circuits. Three, your main panel still has plenty of breaker positions. Number four, subpanels are not free, and this will be a huge percentage of your total electrical installation bill.

As was already pointed out, the only positive reason for adding the subpanel is to have the breakers closer. If you don't trip any breakers, then this is of little value.

Rob Russell
02-13-2008, 7:18 PM
Rick,

I disagree with your position.

Labor, not materials, will be the high cost item in Cesar's installation.

It's still my opinion that he can have the electrician install a surface-mount subpanel for significantly less than it would cost to surface mount all the conduit for the circuits he wants run. Once the subpanel is installed, Cesar can do the rest of the wiring himself. The ability to totally kill power to what you are working on - as a first-timer to electrical work - is both important and comforting.

The distance issue is meaningless. That makes it trivial dollars to run a 6-4 NM cable to feed a 60 amp subpanel.

I do agree that the ability to reset breakers in the shop vs. main panel is meaningless.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

Jude Tuliszewski
02-14-2008, 12:06 AM
Reasons for a sub-panel: a minor point ease of access, next, as was stated in my previous post, and to me most important, is flexibility.


I agree with the sub panel idea, I was in the same place you are now three years ago, one circuit for the lights and garage door opener and one outlet that was on the outside outlet circuit. Now that I added my sub panel, I can upgrade equipment and not worry about getting power to it. I upgraded to a 3 hp TS (220), 2 hp dc (220), and then a 3 hp bandsaw (220) within those years and all I had to do was run a new wire and add a breaker. I also added three 110 circuits for the air compressor, additional lights, heater,etc. Again the sub panel lets you grow into your hobby. Just my two cents.

Brian

If in the next couple of years Cesar up grades to a big band saw, table saw, and so on, it will be considerably easier to wire up. If more lighting is wanted, again much easier to wire up, as well as being segregated from the main panel.
Like a lot of things in WW, pay a little more now to avoid headaches later.

Rick Christopherson
02-14-2008, 2:03 AM
I understand the thought that drilling a hole through sheetrock can be extremely tedious and time consuming, and you might burn up 4 or 5 drill bits in the process, :D but I really don't think this by itself is a good rationale for a subpanel. (OK, tongue removed from cheek).:)

Rob, your argument is a little more applicable, but still not absolute. He could still complete all of the proposed wiring himself, and then hire an electrician to make the final connection into the existing load center, and the cost will be significantly lower than installing a new subpanel. An electrician could make these final connections in a matter of minutes, which is far less time than it will take him to install a subpanel.
The ability to totally kill power to what you are working on - as a first-timer to electrical work - is both important and comforting.As you know (and the OP may not) you don't wire the rest of the circuit after you made the final connection to the load center. You wire the whole circuit, and the last step is to connect it at the load center. So this statement could very possible lead the OP into thinking that if he didn't put in a subpanel, that all of his work was being done live, which is not how this gets done.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with a subpanel, but just make sure that the original poster is getting the whole picture about this. He had already made the decision not to add a subpanel, but after so many people told him that he needed to, then he changed his mind, but I don't think he was clear on the reasons behind this.

If his main load center was located anywhere else, or was nearly full, then I wouldn't even be mentioning this. But to connect a circuit into his main load center is simply a matter of poking a hole in the sheetrock. It is so easy to spend someone else's money, but not everyone has the cash to burn for so little gain.

Augusto Orosco
03-11-2008, 12:22 PM
Thought I would revive this post, since I have done a few more inquires since then.

As many of you suggested (thanks! :)) I will do all the wiring myself and have a pro make the final connections to the panel. Therefore, now I need some help along the way, to make sure I do this neatly and correctly.

The circuits will be as follows:


One 20amp, 240v circuit, feeding one receptacle; dedicated to the dust collector
One 20 amp, 240v circuit, feeding three receptacles (one per wall). I am a one man shop, so only one of these receptacles will be use at a time.
One 20 amp, 110v circuit, feeding three receptacles (one per wall); for other power tools. (The garage already has two 110v. receptacles running on separate circuits, so one extra 110v circuit will suffice for me). Note: I decided on this third circuit instead of making the second a 240/110v circuit simply because all of the electricians I spoke too (3 in total) were not too keen on the idea, and I need them to be on my side when they come to make the final connections to the panel. For the same reason, I will only make the first receptacle on this circuit a GFCI to provide downstream protection the other 110s.


I will use THHN #12 wire; with the three circuits through one single EMT conduit.

As I see it; I will need a total of 6 wires going through the raceway:

1 hot, 1 neutral for the 110v. circuit. = 2 wires

2 hots for each ot the two 240v. circuits = 4 wires

Four questions here:


Am I correct by assuming that I don’t need a ground wire inside the tubing, since I will be grounding directly to the metallic electrical box?
Am I correct by assuming that the 240v circuits do not need a neutral since they will be supplying 240v exclusively? (i.e. as opposed to some circuits for dryers that also need to supply 110v)
I read a few things about “derating” based on the number of conductors (I think Rob is the expert here) but got a little confused: Can these three circuits run safely in #12 THHN wire along one single ¾” EMT pipe?. The longest run (to the furthest outlet) here would be slightly less than 60 feet.
Will ¾” diameter EMT suffice or should I use 1”? I will be running the EMT along the walls, about 8 feet high. Every time I need an outlet, I will use an electrical box to split the wire (pig-tailing) and drop down to another electrical box with the corresponding outlet (either 110v or 240v), about 50 inches from the floor (read a nice tip about preventing sheet goods to block my outlets). Two questions regarding this:


Which size boxes should I use for the drop down? I assume these should be larger, since they will be containing all the wires for the three circuits.
Even though only one circuit will be “dropped” at every outlet point, should I pigtail every single wire instead of letting the other two circuits run through uninterrupted? (this would allow for easier branching in the future, if I find the need). Will this be against code?Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Rob Russell
03-11-2008, 3:44 PM
The circuits will be as follows:

One 20amp, 240v circuit, feeding one receptacle; dedicated to the dust collector
One 20 amp, 240v circuit, feeding three receptacles (one per wall). I am a one man shop, so only one of these receptacles will be use at a time.
One 20 amp, 110v circuit, feeding three receptacles (one per wall); for other power tools. (The garage already has two 110v. receptacles running on separate circuits, so one extra 110v circuit will suffice for me). Note: I decided on this third circuit instead of making the second a 240/110v circuit simply because all of the electricians I spoke too (3 in total) were not too keen on the idea, and I need them to be on my side when they come to make the final connections to the panel. For the same reason, I will only make the first receptacle on this circuit a GFCI to provide downstream protection the other 110s.

I will use THHN #12 wire; with the three circuits through one single EMT conduit.

As I see it; I will need a total of 6 wires going through the raceway:

1 hot, 1 neutral for the 110v. circuit. = 2 wires

2 hots for each ot the two 240v. circuits = 4 wires


All of the above sounds fine to me, but that's just my opinion.



Four questions here:

Am I correct by assuming that I don’t need a ground wire inside the tubing, since I will be grounding directly to the metallic electrical box?
Am I correct by assuming that the 240v circuits do not need a neutral since they will be supplying 240v exclusively? (i.e. as opposed to some circuits for dryers that also need to supply 110v)
I read a few things about “derating” based on the number of conductors (I think Rob is the expert here) but got a little confused: Can these three circuits run safely in #12 THHN wire along one single ¾” EMT pipe?. The longest run (to the furthest outlet) here would be slightly less than 60 feet.
Will ¾” diameter EMT suffice or should I use 1”?
Which size boxes should I use for the drop down? I assume these should be larger, since they will be containing all the wires for the three circuits.
Even though only one circuit will be “dropped” at every outlet point, should I pigtail every single wire instead of letting the other two circuits run through uninterrupted? (this would allow for easier branching in the future, if I find the need). Will this be against code?1) You don't "need" an equipment grounding conductor inside the conduit. My personal preference is to run one because it guarantees that your EGC has continuity. The extra cost of 100' of THHN/THWN would be worth it to me to know that I had that EGC path and didn't have to worry about a loose EMT connection breaking the EGC. If you go that route, buy some of the green grounding screws - they are sized for the threaded EGC hole on the bottom of the junction boxes.

2) You are correct that 240v-only circuits do not need a neutral.

3) I'm no expert, unfortunately sometimes I may sound that way ... you could read the same sections in the code as I do. It's available online here (http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70&cookie%5Ftest=1).

You can run (6) #12 THHN/THWN in a single raceway (conduit) and use that for a 20 amp circuit, notwithstanding voltage drop. According to the online voltage drop/wire size calculator that I use (at J H Larson (http://www.jhlarson.com/ind_tables/ind_table.htm)), #12 is OK for 15 amps at 60 feet. Anything above that needs #10 to reduce voltage drop.

Something you might consider is whether you ever want to install a dedicated circuit for a compressor. If you do, you'll need a separate run of EMT for it unless you upsize your THHN/THWN to #10 now.

4) Technically, 1/2" EMT is big enough for the conductors you want to pull. I'd still go with the 3/4" because it'll be easier to pull the conductors through the larger conduit.

FYI, if you did decide to use #10 THHN/THWN to reduce voltage drop, you could still use the 3/4" EMT. Using #10 would also mean that you could pull an additional 20A circuit with #10 through that 3/4" EMT in the future if you needed to.

I'm not advocating using #10, just explaining what it does for you. If you're not going to run loads larger than 15 amps on your circuits and don't expect to need more circuits (or are OK with running more EMT), the #12 is fine.

5) You need a box with at least 18 cubic inches of volume. That's small. I'd go with a big box like the 4 11/16" x 4 11/16" x 2 1/8" simply because it gives you lots of room to work in. The cost differential is trivial.

6) It's completely allowable to have conductors pass through a box without being "pigtailed" in it. I'd suggest leaving a complete loop of wire inside the box for each conductor that just passes through the box. That way it's easy to break the appropriate conductors and tie into them in the future. That's another reason to use the larger junction box. A complete loop of wire tucked neatly all the way around the bottom of the larger box gives you enough conductor to work with if you do cut it in the middle.

Hope this helps.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = == = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

[EDIT]

I've violated one of the rules that I like to observe, which is to post the NEC sections upon which I base my statement(s).

I didn't in this post, because it would have taken a LOT of time to post all the relevant sections and calculations.

For example, there are at least 3 NEC sections and calculations I'd need to cite for my answer to #3. I am willing to do it, but I was being lazy and really didn't want to complicate this answer with how I arrived at my answers.

[\EDIT]

Augusto Orosco
03-11-2008, 8:31 PM
1) You don't "need" an equipment grounding conductor inside the conduit. My personal preference is to run one because it guarantees that your EGC has continuity. The extra cost of 100' of THHN/THWN would be worth it to me to know that I had that EGC path and didn't have to worry about a loose EMT connection breaking the EGC. If you go that route, buy some of the green grounding screws - they are sized for the threaded EGC hole on the bottom of the junction boxes.


I like your idea. If I understand correctly, I would only need ONE wire (e.g. green THHN/THWN) for all three circuits inside the conduit?





FYI, if you did decide to use #10 THHN/THWN to reduce voltage drop, you could still use the 3/4" EMT. Using #10 would also mean that you could pull an additional 20A circuit with #10 through that 3/4" EMT in the future if you needed to.


Good suggestion. If I decide on #10, and also on a ground wire (as mentioned above); would the 3/4" EMT still be large enough (even to accomodate a 4th circuit in the future)?



Hope this helps.


It helps a lot!

One final question: What's the best way to bundle the three separate circuits from the subpanel to the single 3/4 EMT line, given that the wires should never be exposed? Run three EMT lines from the subpanel to three knock-outs of a junction box and then exit the box with one single 3/4 EMT line?

Thanks!

Rob Russell
03-11-2008, 9:57 PM
I like your idea. If I understand correctly, I would only need ONE wire (e.g. green THHN/THWN) for all three circuits inside the conduit?


That's correct.
If you run #12 for your primary conductors, use #12 for the (1/shared) EGC.
If you use #10 for your primary conductors, use #10 for the (1/shared) EGC.



Good suggestion. If I decide on #10, and also on a ground wire (as mentioned above); would the 3/4" EMT still be large enough (even to accomodate a 4th circuit in the future)?


Ummm - already answered! :rolleyes: Read my previous response.



One final question: What's the best way to bundle the three separate circuits from the subpanel to the single 3/4 EMT line, given that the wires should never be exposed? Run three EMT lines from the subpanel to three knock-outs of a junction box and then exit the box with one single 3/4 EMT line?


I guess I'm a little confused here.

If you're putting in a subpanel in the garage, then you'd have (1) 3/4" EMT run into your subpanel. Each of the respective circuits would run from the EMT into the subpanel and then land on the appropriate circuit breaker/grounded(neutral)/EGC buss.

Does this make sense?

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

Augusto Orosco
03-12-2008, 7:20 AM
I guess I'm a little confused here.

If you're putting in a subpanel in the garage, then you'd have (1) 3/4" EMT run into your subpanel. Each of the respective circuits would run from the EMT into the subpanel and then land on the appropriate circuit breaker/grounded(neutral)/EGC buss.

Does this make sense?


I was basing my logic in the fact that wire should not be exposed at any time (not even for a couple of inches). My thought was that I will have a total of 7 wires (2x3 for each circuit + EGC), so they can't all come out from the panel using the same knock-out hole (can they?). Instead I would have (3) EMTs protecting wire leaving the panel from three separate knock outs that should eventually be merged into (1) 3/4" EMT. That's why I mentioned a junction box to merge them all.

I should take a closer look at how a panel is built (never seen one that wasn't already wired); I am probably picturing something incorrectly :confused:.

Rob Russell
03-12-2008, 8:07 AM
You only need (1) run of 3/4" EMT. All 7 of the conductors can fit in that one run, whether they're #12 or you choose to upsize to #10.

In terms of protecting the conductors from damage where they transition from the EMT to the panelboard, there will be factory-punched knockouts in the panelboard. You'd choose one that is sized for a 3/4" EMT connector. That's basically a metal sleeve with a threaded end. The threaded end mounts on the panelboard in the knockout and a locking ring nut fastens it in place. The EMT slides into the sleeve and you tighten down set screws to secure the EMT. I've attached a pic of a typical EMT set screw connector.

So - (1) run of 3/4" EMT into a connector, with all your THHN/THWN running through that one set of conduit and you're good to go.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

Augusto Orosco
03-12-2008, 8:51 AM
In terms of protecting the conductors from damage where they transition from the EMT to the panelboard, there will be factory-punched knockouts in the panelboard. You'd choose one that is sized for a 3/4" EMT connector.


Now it's completely clear. Thanks, Rob!

Chris Padilla
03-12-2008, 11:09 AM
If you run #12 for your primary conductors, use #12 for the (1/shared) EGC.
If you use #10 for your primary conductors, use #10 for the (1/shared) EGC.

I thought the green/bare EGC could be smaller than the wires it accompanies?

For example, running #12 for primary means you could use #14 for EGC.

No?

Rob Russell
03-12-2008, 12:45 PM
I thought the green/bare EGC could be smaller than the wires it accompanies?

For example, running #12 for primary means you could use #14 for EGC.


The size of the EGC is determined by Table 250.122 and is based on the overcurrent protection for the circuit. A 15A circuit needs a #14 EGC, 20A circuit needs a #12 EGC, 30-60A needs #10.

250.122(B) says that if the ungrounded (i.e., hot) conductors are increased in size the EGC has to be proportionally increased. In this case, if Cesar decides to run #10 for his hot and neutral conductors, he'd need to use #10 for the EGC also.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

Augusto Orosco
03-12-2008, 9:38 PM
I think I am almost there! I have two more questions, though:

1) What wire should I use from the main panel to the 60amp sub and how should I protect it? (e.g. use flexible metal conduit to go from the main panel through the wall and into the subpanel?)


2) Is it acceptable to use a large box and put one 110v receptacle next to a 240v receptacle (is this what is called "ganging")? If allowed, this would save me half of the conduit drops I was originally planning

Thanks!

Rob Russell
03-13-2008, 3:13 PM
I think I am almost there! I have two more questions, though:

1) What wire should I use from the main panel to the 60amp sub and how should I protect it? (e.g. use flexible metal conduit to go from the main panel through the wall and into the subpanel?)

#6 THHN/THWN is rated for 65 amps. Flexible metal conduit should be fine, although I thought you were having an electrician put in the subpanel. If so, I'd let him/her worry about how to encase the conductors - they may have a preference to some other raceway.



2) Is it acceptable to use a large box and put one 110v receptacle next to a 240v receptacle (is this what is called "ganging")? If allowed, this would save me half of the conduit drops I was originally planning

That's absolutely fine.

Rob
Addy protocol: unlicensed, homeowner electrician

Augusto Orosco
03-13-2008, 3:22 PM
I thought you were having an electrician put in the subpanel. If so, I'd let him/her worry about how to encase the conductors - they may have a preference to some other raceway.


I am, but I was thinking about fishing the wire from the basement to the garage, so things would go faster for the electrician. But now that I think about it, it's probably better to let the electrician do things his/her way when it comes to the sub-panel.

Off to the store this weekend to get everything I need; better have this project started soon. Thank you and everyone else in this forum; your help has been great!

Augusto Orosco
09-07-2008, 3:16 PM
I guess it's time I revive this thread. My garage wiring was supposed to be done 6 months ago, but I only got to it last week during my vacation.

An electrician installed a 60amp subpanel in my garage and I installed all the EMT runs with drop down boxes for several 110v and 240v outlets. Bending conduit wasn't difficult (I only needed 90 deg. bends and 1/2" offsets), and that part went very smoothly.

I decided to go with 4 circuits: Two 20a 110v and Two 20a 240v. Since I had a total of nine wires (2 per circuit plus a common ground), I followed Rob's advice and used 3/4 emt and #10 wire, which wasn't difficult to pull through the conduit. Eveything is going very well so far, but two days ago I noticed that the GFCI receptacles I bought can only take #12 wire. I went to 3 different stores and couldnt' find any 20amp GFCI receptacles that would take #10 (they all can accept up to #12). I found some online, but I am weary of buying them without being able to check them out first for quality.

Anyway, here's my question: I was thinking that I could instead cut a few short pieces of #12 wire (black, white and green) and use them to wire the receptacle and then pigtail inside the box to the #10 wires. Would this be acceptable or would I be compromising performance/safety by doing this, since up to now the whole thing is wired on #10s?

Rollie Meyers
09-07-2008, 7:41 PM
Rob,

I dunno...what about bending all that EMT? I still can't do that very well although I tried only once or twice. :) I guess he could go with the plastic EMT? They sell fittings for those but it is pricey....

Too bad all that drywall is in the way...ever thought of cutting some of it out to insulated your garage, Cesar? ;) haha By the time you leave the house, you might have saved up enough money to actually USE the shop! ;) Bascially, I did this to my garage: gutted it, rewired the whole thing, insulated the whole thing, re-sheetrocked. It was a ton of work and cost some money and took a lot of time but I'm pretty happy about it...loads of outlets and a garage whose temperature doesn't change as much as it used to.

Good Luck!

Plastic EMT???????? No such dog.:D EMT = Electrical METALLIC Tubing What you may be thinking of is ENT which is Electrical Nonmetallic Tubing, trade nickname "Smurf tube". One problem is it's not for exposed use, needs to be concealed by materials w/ a 15 minute finish rating,also very brittle in cold weather... See NEC art. 362 permitted / non-permitted uses of ENT.

For those who commented about a "40 Amp. outlet" a 50 ampere receptacle is permitted to be used on a 40 A circuit. see table 210.24 2005 NEC.

Tom Hamilton
09-07-2008, 8:05 PM
You said: Ideally, I would install a sub-panel, many breakers, outlets, and the like, but I don’t plan on staying in this house for more than just a few years; so I don’t want to invest too much money in a set-up that I will be leaving behind.

Ya, but you don't know what the future brings. What's a few years? 3, 5, 7?

So, what if you thought about your re-electrification as a new tool, or fishing charter, or tickets to the (insert your fav band) etc. If you do the new power, you have the use, you've upgraded your home, (yea, not for every potential buyer) and you've got the skills developed using all the tools.

Now I realize you've got budget issues, maybe family issues, but I'm just just suggesting not to base your decision on what may or may not happen in a few years. If you had a moving date in 12 months I'd be quiet.

Just think about it, Tom, in Houston, enjoying 220, A/C, TV, refrigerator, phone and a wood floor in a shop that was only for a couple of years......in 2003.

Augusto Orosco
09-08-2008, 10:43 AM
...So, what if you thought about your re-electrification as a new tool, or fishing charter, or tickets to the (insert your fav band) etc. If you do the new power, you have the use, you've upgraded your home, (yea, not for every potential buyer) and you've got the skills developed using all the tools.


Thanks, Tom! Your suggestion was actually shared by many in here and I decided to follow it (and certainly learned a lot along the way). Currently I had a subpanel installed in my garage (4 months ago) with EMT runs and wire already pulled through it (just completed that last week). I revived the thread because of a small question I have with my GFCI receptacles (you can read it if you look a couple of posts above).