J/P combo upgrade or just a new planer?

[Don Abele]

I have a major kitchen overhaul project to complete this summer for which I've been stocking up on the toy...err, tools.

Last year, I got an excellent deal on upgrading my 6" Jet jointer with a Byrd Shelix head. I also have the Ridgid 13" portable planer. Both are in excellent shape.

I recently found an excellent supply of S4S Hard Maple for the cabinet face frames, doors, and drawers. A lot of it has some amount of curl to it as well. It ranges from 4/4 to 5/4 in 6 to 8 inch widths. This is obviously too thick for my purposes, so it all needs to be planed down. If I use the Ridgid planer I know I'm just asking for disappointment (overall finished quality, time, noise, blades, etc).

So here's the question, do I:

(A) Sell my current Jointer and Planer and buy the Grizzly combo unit with the shelix head (G0634).

(B) Sell the Planer and upgrade to the Grizzly 15" with shelix head (G1021X2).

Background: I mostly buy S4S or S2S boards and tend to stick to the 6-8" range. Very rarely will I grab a 10" board (even if it's available) - I'm just too worried about excessive cupping.

What I would really like from you is not just a "Go with option A" answer, but instead a "Go with option A because..." answer. I'm drawing on the collective experience, especially those that had separate tools and now own the combo units.

BTW, I want to thank my Uncle for his "stimulus" which will provide the funds for this acquisition as I do my part to help the economy by spending it quickly. :D

Thanks in advance for your guidance.

Be well,

Doc

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Or you could get a 12" Hammer JP combo and install a true helical on that. One helical cutterhead with inserts will last a very long time. and you'll only need one.

[Greg Funk]

If you are going to be making kitchen cabinets with frame and panel doors it is likely that you will need some wider doors. If you get the Grizzly combo unit your max panel size will be 12" which might give you a 15" maximum door width. I would prefer to have the widest planer possible. If you have the space a separate Planer and Jointer is more flexible and easy to use (no need to switch combo unit).

Greg

[Matt Meiser]

Hey, we must be related because my uncle is sending me money too. He must have a lot of money laying around :rolleyes:. I'm not sure how many kids you have, but if its two, your Uncle should be giving you enough to cover the Grizzly J/P combo with a standard head, not including shipping. I think you'd need 4 kids to cover the spiral head if my math is right. This is the only time I've been jealous of my friend with 5 kids. :D

I vote that you should buy the combo so that I can read more reviews. :D

In all seriousness, I used to have an 8" jointer and 15" planer. They take up a lot of room. And most of the boards I've personally ever used that needed to be face jointed have been wider than 8". When I scaled back my shop I went to an old 6" jointer for edge jointing and a portable planer. Those meet my needs great as far as capacity, with the exception that if I have boards that need to be face jointed I'll either have to phone a friend or make a planer sled, and the jointer is a tad short. I think the Griz would take up about the same floor space as my current two machines or one of my old machines. It would give great jointing capacity and planing capacity almost equal to my current planer, all in a heavier duty machine. Anyway, that's the reason for my interest.

[Mike Spanbauer]

One other thought. That Rigid is a unit that performs extremely well and actually the cut quality on it is equal to or superior to many 15" planers (minus helical / index heads.) However, the knife cost and life of each side isn't too great. I miss my 13" rigid some times now that I have a 15" griz and wish I had kept it for finish cuts.

I've also waffled about whether to upgrade my current J & P to a j/p combo based on cost. However, I'm fairly sure that if the right deal were to present itself I would spring for the combo + cutterhead unit based on the enhanced jointer capability. I've a 24" drum sander, and frankly once the panel is glued up, I've never re-fed my panels back through my planer. Through my DS, yes, but not my planer.

I would however, LOVE to have an extra 4 or 6" to my jointer which is currently an 8" PM60 (a dang fine jointer in its own right) for times when I have highly figured stock that would like to be skewed across the head, OR simply 8"> stock.

I would suggest considering keeping your Rigid no matter which direction you go as a set of sharp knives on it will cut VERY well given the high RPM.

mike

[Don Abele]

Wow guys, that was some quick responses.

Cliff, the Hammer is just a tad over the price point I was looking at (actually it's almost close to double it).

Greg, I plane the boards prior to glue up and then, like Mike, I have a 22" drum sander to finalize any smoothing. I have never planned a glued up panel.

Matt, yup, same uncle and I have 3 little crumb snatchers plus the wifey so the total purchase should be covered easily (I hope). I also confirmed that the combo unit would actually occupy an area almost the same size as both the 15" planer and my 6" jointer (J/P is 45x60, Planer is 48x32, Jointer is 46x20 - so 48x52). It appears that the rear fence post is HUGE when in the actual use position. I don't know how small it can get, but it seems that size doesn't sound like it's a real consideration. At least until someone that owns the unit chimes in.

Mike, you're right on with the Ridgid. I love it and it has performed VERY well for me. I actually have a new set of knives on it now with a fresh spare set waiting. They do dull quickly though with the hard maple.

Thanks guys - keep 'em coming, they have me thinking.

Be well,

Doc

[Matt Meiser]

Wow, its a lot bigger than I imagined and I've never looked at specs. But also take into account infeed and outfeed room. The J/P combo share the same infeed/outfeed path where the separate machines will need separate areas. The bed on 15" planers is quite low.

[Jim Becker]

Wide is good, IMHO. And not just for wide boards. I've seen no need for a special cutter head on my J/P combo...the quick change Tersa knives are the bee's knees and since I can skew the cut, dealing with knarly stock is no worse than with a heilical head. I love my J/P...no regrets.

[Don Abele]

Matt, you have me taking a ruler to my monitor now! :eek:

Just did some guesstimations...

The J/P Combo lists an overall height of 45" - that makes it appear that the planer table is about 26".

The 15" Planer lists an overall height of 43" (interesting that it is shorter than the J/P) - that would put the table at about...26".

Both of these are low, considering that the height on my Ridgid (on it's stand) is about 36". I think feeding stock lower will actually be more of a benefit (less height to lift it up to load it).



This brought up another question (since I'm measuring things)...

The planer has a table (with extensions) of 51". The J/P Combo only has a planer table of 23" - that seems REALLY small. My Ridgid is 33" with extensions.

Does such a short table create any problems? Especially with snipe on long boards (the longest I typically work with is about 6 feet).

Be well,

Doc

[Matt Meiser]

That sounds about right for a 15" planer. The only issue for me was that it was lower than I could reach without bending over. I suppose you could build a box to set the 15" unit on to raise it up. I'm not sure what the mobility requirements in your shop are.

I guess what I was getting at with size is that, assuming your machines are in a fixed location the J/P combo would use less overall space than separate machines because they would share infeed/outfeed paths. You couldn't do that with the separates because of the heights of the two machines would preclude it. The base of the jointer would get in the way of the planer and the top of the planer would get in the way of the jointer. I had mine arranged so that the outfeed of the planer went just past the front of the jointer. That kept the overall work area relatively narrow, but they had to be offset so overall lenght of the work area was very long. If you put the planer behind the jointer, the area is shorter, but very wide.

[Don Abele]

Matt, I have a 2 car garage about 24x24. All my tools are on mobile bases. The jointer, drum sander, molder, planer/oss are all in a "tool coral" in one corner. I bring them out and set them up as I need them. There is plenty of room to set them all in permanent locations, but I like the free space so keep them coraled.

As for raising the planer, I don't think I'd try - it's 581 pounds. Not sure I'd want to elevated it any more than it already is, unless I welded on extensions to the base.

Be well,

Doc

[Bob Antoniewicz]

Well, if you really wanted to stimulate the economy, you'd have to buy American. And since you can't (or at least, I don't know how you can) buy a large planer or J/P combo that's American made, that idea is out.

It seems to me that you have the planer you need, you just need a way to take off a little bit after your planer gets you close. And if you are doing cabinets, maybe the right approach would be a sander.

That said, I couldn't tell you which, if any, sanders are made in the USA.

If a choice has to be made between the J/P and Planer, well, that gets down to room and what you feel comfortable using. I'd prefer separates (though I have a MM Combo).

There was someone in the classifieds selling a MM FS30 J/P. And like Jim Becker said, the Tersa head IS the bee's knees!

Bob A.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Don, I recently went through the same process, except I was replacing a 15 inch cast iron planer.

I opted for the Hammer A31 which is a 300mm planer/jointer comination.

Jet and Grizzly have models in that size range, as well as Rojek, Felder, and MiniMax.

In my shop (Basement of a townhouse) a combo is much better from a space perspective, as well as giving me a wider jointer than I would ever have purchased in a stand alone jointer.

I know that it's often hard to justify spending large amount of cash on machinery, however I've finally learned that it's better to buy good equipment once, than go through multiple upgrades.

Regards, Rod.

[Matt Meiser]

Yeah, I wouldn't want to raise it either. Especially if its going to be mobile. Mine only moved by tractor power.

Speaking of mobility, does Grizzly offer a mobile base they saw will work with the J/P combo? The really don't say which Shop Fox base you could use like they do with most of the rest of the tools.

[Don Abele]

Bob, it may not be American made, but I'll be purchasing it from an American company so it should help some. :) I already have a Jet 22/44 drum sander which I use for final tweaking on the size.

Rod, I agree which is why I am asking this question. When I bought the 6" jointer and 13" planer, it was really all I had the room for (small 1 car garage). I was also building stuff that didn't need more umph than that either. With the amount of planing I'm going to be doing, I thought a beefier planer would yield better results in the long run.

I looked at the A31 and the only reason I am opting over it for the Grizzly is cost. Now if someone comes back and says it's absolutely not worth it, then I'll save more until I can afford one of the higher priced combos. I excluded the Jet due to cost and the standard knives. While I have no experience with the Tersa knives, I've heard many positive comments on them. I do use Shelix heads and like them very much (especially how quiet they are). Can you comment on the question I posted earlier about the short table length for the planer - it's smaller than the one on my Ridgid. Any problems?

Matt, I personally don't like the Shop Fox mobile bases and have almost all of my tools on HTC-2000's. For the stuff over 300# I buy the dedicated HTC base that matches the footprint. I've had great results with them without any complaints.

Thanks again for all the comments guys.

Be well,

Doc

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Don, the planer (thicknesser) table on the Hammer is 21 1/4" long according to the specification.

A General 130-1 (high end made in Canada) planer has a 21 1/2" long planer table.

I've never had a problem with excessive snipe on long boards, although you do have to support them when they are entering or exiting the planer.

From memory, the large industrial planers I worked on were slightly less than square, i.e. a 32 inch planer had a bed length of about 30 inches, 52 inch had a bed length of about 48 inches.

It makes sense, as a workpiece gets wider (for the same thickness) the amount of force on the infeed/outfeed rollers would rise, so you would make the bed longer to reduce the leverage.

Although your lunchbox planer may take an 8 foot long, 12 inch wide, 6 inch thick piece of oak, it, and it's table extensions would be drastically overwhelmed by the leverage of such a workpiece.

The shorter planer bed length wouldn't be someting I'd worry about, and you may be able to purchase extensions if you are worried.

Regards, Rod.

[Eddie Darby]

If you are worried about the curl in the wood, then just run some through your present machines and see how it goes before buying anything.

I have a 6" jointer that handles tight curl in maple with no problem, and then there are a few tricks for the planer if you need them, such as running the wood through on a angle, or moistening lightly the wood surface before running it through the planer.

The nice thing about combos is that you get two spiral heads in one, which is a huge $$$$$ saver! Then you save space as well.

[Don Abele]

Rod, the bed on the Grizzly planer I'm looking at is 51" long (including the cast iron fixed extensions). That's longer than my jointer! My Ridgid is 33" including the fold down extensions. I built a 4 foot long auxiliary bed from mdf and laminate that ensures a flat surface regardless of the extensions. I built it to be exactly 1 inch thick so it's easy to use the gauge still. It works great and I've not have any problems with snipe. I rarely use boards over 6 feet, though I will have a few with the upcoming project (for the kitchen cabinet face frames). My real concern was supporting even a 6 foot board while feeding it into the planer with a bed that's only 23". You say you've not had any problems with snipe in longer boards?

Be well,

Doc

[Don Abele]

Eddie, not worried about the curl at all. I've had maple with much more severe curl and had no problems with my current Ridgid planing it. Want to switch to a shelix head for the improved cut, quiet, and ability to rotate/replace inserts as needed, instead of a whole blade.

Oddly enough, through this thread I figured out that the combo unit will actually take up as much space as both my 6" jointer and the 15" planer I'm thinking of buying (if they were both stored together). This combo unit is 45" wide and 60" long! Not nearly as compact as you might think. That 45" width is pretty significant.

Be well,

Doc

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Don, I get a small amount of snipe for about 2 inches on both ends of the stock if I don't support the stock....Rod.

[Curt Harms]

Hi Doc

The Jet Combo is 26" or 27" wide and about 58" long for storage. I'm wondering about snipe with long boards as well. I'll know soon enough, although I've seldom planed boards longer than about 5' in the past. If I need supports, I'll probably have to make my own. The planer bed is about 30" off the ground when planing 1" stock, the planer bed elevation wheel is about 18" off the ground at the hub which may be uncomfortable for tall people. That does not include me:).

HTH

Curt


Eddie, not worried about the curl at all. I've had maple with much more severe curl and had no problems with my current Ridgid planing it. Want to switch to a shelix head for the improved cut, quiet, and ability to rotate/replace inserts as needed, instead of a whole blade.

Oddly enough, through this thread I figured out that the combo unit will actually take up as much space as both my 6" jointer and the 15" planer I'm thinking of buying (if they were both stored together). This combo unit is 45" wide and 60" long! Not nearly as compact as you might think. That 45" width is pretty significant.

Be well,

Doc

[Jim Becker]

Don, I don't get snipe when planing long boards as long as I walk to the outfeed side and support the board with my hand before the end clears the first set of rollers on the infeed side. A little upward pressure deals with it and that's no different than any other planer. The moment of force that a long board can exert when nothing is holding up the end can be considerable. Since the bed moves up as you adjust the thickness, "permanent" supports are not possible. Hence, the Mark One right and left hands that are put into action!

[Don Abele]

Thanks Jim. That's really the kind of information I was hoping to get from the few of you that own combo units.

I'm really not concerned with the length of the jointer table as the combo units have a longer table than my current 6" Jet which has worked very well for me, including jointing 8' long boards. It just seems like that planer table is really small.

Space savings seems to have become a null point as these combo units are fairly large and seem to occupy the same area as a separate planer and jointer (stored side by side).

The time for switching doesn't matter much to me. The only time I could see this really coming up is when material needs to be face jointed, edge jointed...switch...then planed to thickness. Based on what I've heard about the switch-over, I think it's an even wash with the time it would take for me to move the jointer, bring the planer in, set it up and then go.

The major advantage that I see is the significant increase in jointer width. But I rarely face joint as I usually get my wood S2S.

Another is the shelix head and better motor for the planer (no more screaming universal motor). But I can get this with the planer upgrade alone. This is really what got me onto the path I'm on now - upgrading my planer.

I've got to say, I'm still on the fence with which way to go. That's OK for now as I don't really have to make up my mind until the end of the month. Hopefully more info will come along to help with the decision.

Be well,

Doc

[Eddie Darby]

If it is space, then the Jet unit has a smaller footprint than the Grizzly. The rack and pinion shafted fence on the Grizzly takes up a lot of room in the back of this machine.
The down-side is that it has no helix head on it.
The Byrd site has a shelix head, but it is not the same diameter. I would think that if enough of these machines are sold, then a head will be offered, but the cost of the 12" head that they offer right now is fairly steep, so I don't see a new head for the jet being much cheaper!
If the shelix cut better than the helix head, then maybe the added cost could be justified somewhat, but I haven't heard too many complaints about the helix, and a few too many about the shelix for my likes.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Don, I do have some snipe, however in my estimation it's not excessive.

If I don't support long pieces for the first 1/3 of their length, the snipe is about 1/32" deep, two inches long, which can be reduced to 1/64" by supporting the workpiece for aproximately 1/3 of the length.

Since I always cut that much off anyway, I don't consider it significant.....Rod.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Hi Doc

The Jet Combo is 26" or 27" wide and about 58" long for storage. I'm wondering about snipe with long boards as well. I'll know soon enough...
Curt

Curt...did you hear about the rash of robberies in the Doylestown area lately? Thieves from the Northern New Jersey area are targeting homes with fancy new combo machines. :)

Just wanted to remind you that I'm still hoping you share your thoughts on the new Jet J/P when you get everything up and running. :)

-Jeff :)

[Jim Nardi]

I'd add a drum sander. Curly maple tends to blow out no matter what machines your using. Plane down to a 1/8" thicker and sand both sides.

[Rob Russell]

Cliff, the Hammer is just a tad over the price point I was looking at (actually it's almost close to double it).


I was going to suggest the Felder 20" j/p, but that's definitely a tad above your price range. It is like an aircraft carrier, though.

[Louis Rucci]

I've here because I wanted to get an opinion on the Grizzly G0634. Specifically what is the design of their carbide spherical cutter head. I can't make it out from the picture.

I would much prefer a J/P combo with the Byrd helixal head.

thanks