Is it possible to create a database with all corel datas? [Archive]

Doug Griffith

02-11-2008, 3:18 PM

Off the top of my head, I would include fields for entering:
1) machine type
2) wattage
3) material
4) raster or engrave
5) speed
6) power
7) frequency
8) units of measure
9) protective coating on or off???
10) manufacturer???

The data would be entered by visitors. I could apply formulas to it for converting between machines, etc... I'm guessing it would evolve into something useful.

I could even make it a tool for storing settings on a customer level. I've done it before for both wire edm and mixing pantone ink systems.

Ricky Gore

02-11-2008, 4:21 PM

Sounds like a great idea to me. I am always wondering what settings to use. By the way, soap doesn't engrave very well. :)

Christian Kaplan

02-12-2008, 8:14 AM

And what about the Corel Dates. Like for glass samples, wood samples........ I mean the .cdr .

Scott Shepherd

02-12-2008, 8:42 AM

I think it's a lot more complicated than that. For instance, the graphic being engraved plays a very important role. If you're doing 4pt text the settings will be different than if you're doing 3" tall letters. If you're doing a complex, detailed graphic versus something simple.

You can easily see speed and power settings for the same wattage vastly vary for those types of things.

Also, there are some different settings on different types of machines that do or don't mean anything to other people. For example, the Universal systems used something called "Image Density" to describe the DPI in the Y-Axis. So you can set the DPI in the X and Y independently. Depending on what that image density is set at also makes a difference in speed/power.

There are a lot of variables you'd have to know to do it right. I seem to recall a recent thread about recommendations for a specific material. I think I posted 23 power and someone else came on and said they use 60 power all the time. Who's right? Which one do you use? There's a huge difference between 23 and 60. If you have that kind of range, then you're better off just looking in your manual and starting at the starting point, in my opinion.

I think it can be done, but it's a heck of a lot more complicated and involved that just speed/power/material settings (in my opinion).

Angus Hines

02-12-2008, 9:49 AM

This sounds like a idea that might be a great resource, but like Scott mentioned, I think the variables are going to make it a daunting task at best.
I mean even between 2 - 60w machines from the same MFG. you are going to have things that match and things that are very diffrent between the 2.

George D Gabert

02-12-2008, 10:37 AM

I think that the data base is good as a basic starting point. I do not own a laser wet (but hope to soon) and have a good understanding of the computer requirements, the laser operating requirements, but no idea where to start in the materials department.

Also this data base may also give some examples of the type of materials and relative thickness that can be processed by other people on the laser. This may inspire other ways to process jobs with different materials.

Hopefully the data base will give guidelines as to what is not possible with their laser power settings.

Christian Kaplan

02-12-2008, 10:45 AM

I Think we must do this! Because it`s a way to help us all!!!!!!
So let`s start to realise it!

Rodne Gold

02-12-2008, 11:41 AM

Personally , I think this is a waste of time , even my manufacturers settings are relatively useless. Apart from the fact that no laser's tube ratings are spot on , there are huge variances in materials nationally and internationally.
A far better way to determine settings is experimentation and an understanding of what the laser actually does to the material.
There are far too many variables to make this data base universal to us all , at best one might create a starting point database for a particular model of a particular wattage.
A better idea might be to make a database of various materials and how they react to a laser beam and based on the effects , the user can then make a choice of where to start.
For example if you take anodised aluminium , you have 2 choices , either to leach the dyes used which requires low power and high speed or to blast the material and ablate some of the surface to create an "engraving" but the material will overburn , IE you wont get white engraving. One can also look at dpi vs heat affected zones and depth for other materials. For example wood , if engraved properly by a laser , will normally have almost no contrast as one vaporises the material and this in theory should leave no heat affected zone. The way to get the burnt look is actually to engrave it improperly , ie to create a heat affected zone and allow resins to melt and char. so if one knows that overburning wood will give contrast , one would use a high dpi and a slow speed with a high power. So in essence , the best way to approach a useful database is to rather give a general overview of the material and how it responds to power, dpi, spot size etc than to give any specific "recipe" .
There is no easy way in this regard, we have all had to go thru the trial and error process as to exact settings on our machines and this is really the only way to get it right and minimise cycle times and give the best results.

Dan Hintz

02-12-2008, 12:39 PM

Rodne,

You make some very good points, but I believe this is exactly why the database should be created. I see nothing wrong with including a "Notes" section tied to each material listing exactly the type of information you mention (such as wood being a "reverse" case, where you want to actually let the material burn for a good image). Glass would include notes on the laser creating microfractures in the material, etc. A "Results" column would give specific examples of what to expect... in the case of wood where the power and dpi is high and the speed slow, the result would be charred wood, providing image contrast.

While it's true that no two lasers will be exact, the mere ability to get someone in the ballpark (particularly to materials they've never worked with) is a great boon. If five people get five different results trying five different methods, and two of those methods turn out pleasant results, they should be added as separate items with appropriate notes. Settings could also be marked as coming from machines that were measured for true output power, giving a confidence level. A checkbox could add/remove any measurements not from a qualified system, again, increasing the confidence level. I'd happily rent a meter for a few days to increase the accuracy of the data in the chart... you can buy them for a few hundred off of the web these days, no reason you couldn't rent one for under $100 and know exactly what you have. This would not only increase the accuracy of the database data, but it would make sure any changes you make for your own cuts are based upon an accurate view of your own laser.

I'm not saying the job will be easy, but for everyone to dismiss it out of hand simply because it will take longer than half a day to get reasonable accuracy out of is a disservice to us all. I say go for it.

Scott Shepherd

02-12-2008, 1:10 PM

Dan, I think if anyone knows what's involved, it's Rodne. He has more experience with lasers than just about anyone here.

Also, this data is already included with most of the brand names machines. The Epilog has a book that lists a variety of materials with starting points for settings for all different wattage machines. The ULS systems have a material database built into them, so you can just pick the material and it'll get you off and running. So there already exists a starting point for most people who have lasers.

I'm not knocking the effort, if you want to do it, knock yourself out, but don't kid yourself on the value of the data. There are just too many variables. Even between model years, drive systems change and machines get faster. So 100S 50P on a 1997 model laser is not the same as 100S 50P on a 2008 model.

There's a huge difference in 100S on Trotec and 100S on a Chinese laser. How do you plan to make that correction?

Too many unknowns to make it a table with integrity in my opinion.

Dan Hintz

02-12-2008, 4:10 PM

There's a huge difference in 100S on Trotec and 100S on a Chinese laser. How do you plan to make that correction?
There should be entries for correction factors. Just as you would adjust power on a 60W laser to be 50% of that used on a 30W laser, you would determine the adjustment factor for speed in the same manner. If machine 'A' is capable of 100ips and machine 'B' is capable of 50ips, you have a 2:1 conversion factor...entered easily enough into a cell to modify all other values. We're not talking a static table here, we're talking about one that will dynamically change the values based upon entered data (if you've used PhotoGrav before, you understand the concept of choosing a particular machine to adjust the variables). In that same vein, you could easily have laser model numbers and data for them (speed, power, etc.) that could be quickly selected and automatically adjust the main table.

You seem to make the assumption that most out there are using US-made machines with these menus built in or have been doing this for half of their life. I'm sure you realize there are a surprising number of Chinese laser owners out there, and due to low price and high availability the ownership base is growing quickly. For many it really is tough to pass up a $1k laser when a similar US-made model approaches ten times that amount.

My microwave has a 'popcorn' button, but I'll be damned if I've ever come across a bag of popcorn that popped as much as possible without burning. I normally punch in 5 minutes on high and start listening after 3:30. Baselines are nice if you already know what you're doing... baselines are indispensable if you don't.

Rodne Gold

02-12-2008, 5:08 PM

This idea has been formulated and brought up before and has never amounted to anything. I for one am prepared to give away some secrets and tips regarding lasering in the spirit of sharing and altruism , but hardly give away all my settings on my machine which have cost me a LOT of time and money to develop just to add to a database that is not going to be of any help to me and perhaps even harm me on a competitive basis. The only way you are going to get the correct settings is harvest them from those that have gone thru the trial and error routine and the database is hardly likely to help them much anyway. Seems to me the only ppl it will help are total newbies or those with ultra cheap machines with no support from manufacturers in terms of starting points

Now to be real blunt about it , the cheap machines are a problem to those that have paid the price in terms of $ and time to get theirs up and running and perfect their settings, why would those folk give others a running start and lower the barriers to entry in an already overtraded field?
Sorry if you think im calling a spade a bloody shovel , but that , combined with the myriad of variables to consider makes this , imho, a waste of time.
Apart from anything else , how long do you think it would take to gather the data on every material and every machine and the relative differences between them to make the data at all meaningful?

Thad Nickoley

02-12-2008, 8:26 PM

I have to agree with Rodne, not only is every machine different but so is all different materials. The only wat to get the results that YOU like is to start with the manufacturers recomendations and adjust.

practice, practice, practice,

I will have to admit if the data base existed i would probably look at it often

Scott Shepherd

02-12-2008, 8:36 PM

There should be entries for correction factors. Just as you would adjust power on a 60W laser to be 50% of that used on a 30W laser, you would determine the adjustment factor for speed in the same manner. If machine 'A' is capable of 100ips and machine 'B' is capable of 50ips, you have a 2:1 conversion factor...entered easily enough into a cell to modify all other values.

Settings on the laser don't work on linear scales. You'd think they would, but they don't, and it's in most manuals that the settings are not linear. So you can't use the 60 is 2x 30 ratio. Doesn't work like that. Also, I have no idea how many IPS my machine is and I seriously doubt most people know that info. Like I said, knock yourself out, but you'll understand what I'm talking about once you start gathering the data. It's too many factors and variables that are unknown. Telling someone that Rowmark Blk/white engraves at 100S 40P on a 45W machine means nothing. You can't engrave detail work like 4pt fonts at 100S and 40P for that material and keep the sharp detail on some machines. It's much larger than "Material/wattage/speed/power". It has to take into account for what you're trying to engrave as well. That's the variable you can determine a "X factor" for. Go for it, you'll figure it out once it gets going and you get entries for the same material that range all the way from 25P to 80P for the exact same material. Then what? If your range for the same material is a variation of 55, then how valuable was the information in the first place?

You seem to make the assumption that most out there are using US-made machines with these menus built in or have been doing this for half of their life. I'm sure you realize there are a surprising number of Chinese laser owners out there, and due to low price and high availability the ownership base is growing quickly.

Actually I'd guess that the Chinese laser owners are probably less than 3% on this forum. I haven't been doing this all my life either. Just a year or so. And I've had to learn it the same way Rodne mentioned.

James Stokes

02-12-2008, 9:23 PM

I will chime in too. I am in the camp that a data base would be useless. I had a tube recharged on a 35 watt laser, the settings I used before the recharge are useless now. My laser is running much hotter than ever before. When that laser was brand new I was engraving granite at about 35 power. Now the very same image I am using 25 power. I have had to cut the power by 10 on every thing.

Ed Newbold

02-13-2008, 8:58 AM

Although many are claiming a database of this nature would be worthless, I must humbly disagree.

A good database of machine-materials-settings combinations would be an invaluable tool to anyone looking for a good starting point when:

a. creating new products
b. using new/different materials
c. having a computer crash and loosing your existing settings
d. getting a tube recharged and looking for 'common' settings
e. experimenting with new settings on old materials
f. the reasons can go on, ad nauseum...

Heck, I can set up an Excel spreadsheet accessible on the web if you like. Just point me in the right direction with the basic fields you'd like to see populated. I envision a different TAB for each different MACHINE, but all tabs would be arranged with the same basic layout. Something like:

TAB: Universal M-300
Columns: MATERIAL, CUT/ENGRAVE, SPEED, POWER, PPI, NOTES

Sample data would look something like this:
MATERIAL: CUT/ENGRAVE: SPEED: POWER: PPI: NOTES:
Wood, C, 5, 100, 300, -
Wood, E, 100, 45, 200, -

Anyway, that's my two-cents worth. Let me know if you want me to set it up, 'cause I can get it going very quickly.

Cheers,

Mike Null

02-13-2008, 11:56 AM

I'm going to side with the camp that says the info is not that helpful. Not only for the reasons previously mentioned but because people don't seem to be willing to do simple searches. How many times do you see the question "what laser should I buy". I don't believe those people, on this forum, took the time to look up the comments of owners.

There is somnething available in a WIKI format you might have a look at.

http://www.ladyada.net/resources/laser/settings.html

Roy Brewer

02-13-2008, 2:33 PM

Let me know if you want me to set it up, 'cause I can get it going very quickly.Ed,
Can I straddle the fence?
Please go ahead and set it up. I think the main place where this might be beneficial, would be the list of materials on which our forum members are lasering. 1) I can see (especially newbies or people thinking about purchasing a laser) many looking through this and saying "...matboard! Now I didn't even think about that application."

If, however, you are expecting it to be used extensively, you'll be disappointed. Our distributorship, for instance, trains all clients that if they are about to use a material with which they are not familiar, to start with hi speed, lo power and increase the applied NRG until they get the results they need. I'm relatively certain that with a few exceptions, this would be faster than searching the worksheet and would most often yield superior results.

This hypothetical database, at best, would be less useful than the settings supplied by the machine manufacturer. At best, the gleaned information would be suspect if we can't get Rodney and similar "power users" on this forum to contribute their settings.

Having said all that, it doesn't make a idea/tool "bad" just because a tiny percentage of people would use it a tiny percentage of the time. In addition to 1) mentioned above, I can see the following scenarios might cause one to peruse the data:
2) New material, only one chance to get it right...
3) Chinese owners whose manufacturers don't give *any* idea where to start.

Subtract from those scenarios, however, the people who would not remember where to find the spreadsheet and would just post "Hey, what settings is someone using for ??????????"

Ed Newbold

02-14-2008, 7:14 AM

Ed,
Can I straddle the fence?
Please go ahead and set it up. I think the main place where this might be beneficial, would be the list of materials on which our forum members are lasering. 1) I can see (especially newbies or people thinking about purchasing a laser) many looking through this and saying "...matboard! Now I didn't even think about that application."

If, however, you are expecting it to be used extensively, you'll be disappointed. Our distributorship, for instance, trains all clients that if they are about to use a material with which they are not familiar, to start with hi speed, lo power and increase the applied NRG until they get the results they need. I'm relatively certain that with a few exceptions, this would be faster than searching the worksheet and would most often yield superior results.

This hypothetical database, at best, would be less useful than the settings supplied by the machine manufacturer. At best, the gleaned information would be suspect if we can't get Rodney and similar "power users" on this forum to contribute their settings.

Having said all that, it doesn't make a idea/tool "bad" just because a tiny percentage of people would use it a tiny percentage of the time. In addition to 1) mentioned above, I can see the following scenarios might cause one to peruse the data:
2) New material, only one chance to get it right...
3) Chinese owners whose manufacturers don't give *any* idea where to start.

Subtract from those scenarios, however, the people who would not remember where to find the spreadsheet and would just post "Hey, what settings is someone using for ??????????"Hehehe... I give up, Roy. What you say makes sense, and I'm not sure more than two people in the world would actually make use of it anyway. :p

So, I'll just save it for myself. I do reference my own materials/settings spreadsheet frequently, but hey, maybe that's attributable to my poor memory and seasonal jobs/products I don't do that often.

See ya!

Doug Griffith

02-14-2008, 11:42 AM

The power of a "shared" database would be the large amount of data that could be interpreted however one chooses. I've already built the interface and am now integrating the back end. It isn't costing more than my time and if it helps anyone, great. I just hope the laser community doesn't keep their settings so close to their heart that they are unwilling to share.

Cheers

Mike Mackenzie

02-14-2008, 2:17 PM

Doug,

I will be happy to share with you and others ULS settings and tricks when you are ready. I have an extensive library of techniques that work with the ULS systems.

The real key to this is to make sure people know that these are suggestions and will / might need some adjusting.

What we find is that the settings we would save for our customers are based off of the laser power at the table. This varies from system to system. It typically is never under the rated laser power of the tube however we have 60 watt laser tubes that are putting out 78 watts at the table.

So this is where I see a little difficulty when working with this data. Also the ULS systems use a very unique Image enhancement within there drivers that is another issue that would have to be added into the data base as well as Air assist, Print mode, scaling functions, Len's size, focus, etc.

This would be a huge challenge but I am willing to assist from the ULS end of it.

Doug Griffith

02-14-2008, 3:58 PM

Thanks Mike,
I attached a pic illustrating how the interface is playing out. Right now there's just dummy data in there. Light grey "blocks" indicate that data exists. The grey columns/rows follow the mouse to make navigation more intuitive. Multiple settings will flow down the left. All data is AJAX so no page reloads, just data. I'm going to put in the option for shared settings and private settings. All fields are dynamic so new substrates, measurements, machines, etc... can be added by users. I'm curious if this should be moderated? Otherwise someone could enter a bunch of bogus data.

Also, what other data should be collected?
air assist?
print mode?
scaling functions?
len's size?
focus?
resolution?

Any recommendations are welcome. I'm pretty stuck on the column/row navigation though.

Cheers,
Doug

http://www.dogcollarlabor.com/laser_settings_1.png

Mike Null

02-14-2008, 4:28 PM

Doug Griffith

02-14-2008, 4:58 PM

If you decide to proceed with this I would suggest that you consider the term "watts" instead of percentage for power. ex.30 watt machine @ 50% would be 15 watts.

Also speed should be in inches per second rather than percentage. That will equalize the settings.

I'm thinking an advanced option (or all manufacturers) would follow your recommendations while the default option would tie the selected manufacturer/watts to the percentage/speed settings. This would make it easier for inexperienced users to understand.

I've only used Epilog machines and am curious what verbage other manufacturers use for settings.

Thanks again

Scott Shepherd

02-14-2008, 5:24 PM

Model of machine and year would be helpful, I would think. As mentioned before, there is a big difference in two machines 10 years apart, wattage being equal.

Mike Mackenzie

02-14-2008, 5:35 PM

You would need to add PPI, color, DPI, Image Density or LPI as well. The ULS systems do not have to do color mapping we just assign a color to do what we want (Raster, Vector, combined, & skip).

Darren Null

02-14-2008, 5:47 PM

A settings database is a waste of time. You can get different results on different areas of the same piece of plywood. When you're using a low power laser, the difference between cutting a piece of 3mm plywood and setting it on fire is tiny. Get a pocket of glue where there was a sunken bit in the ply and...WHOOF!

I'm not down with the idea that a settings database would make things too easy for beginners....I'm up for sharing the knowledge. Thanks to other guys on here, I've saved at least a grillion euros and have avoided gassing myself with chlorine, to just begin with the heartfelt thanks. And there's still loads of other stuff to know- keep your lens clean; do mirrors from the back and remember to flip it over first; don't put more marble on your bed than it is rated for (that's a new one from me); always wear laserproof goggles when you're working with the doors open etc. I don't believe that a settings database would kill prospects for people who have learned the hard way because you're either a person who learns from information received or you ain't. And who knows- the person you help over the initial hurdles may turn out to be the next da Vinci of the lasering world.

Anyway, wasn't the original question about COREL facts?

Doug Griffith

02-14-2008, 10:50 PM

regarding the database being a waste of time, I like having as much information as possible and extracting even a tidbit is better than nothing.

The original post was about Corel but this is a laser forum and I took it in that direction.

Doug Griffith

02-19-2008, 11:22 AM

Just to let you know, I'm still putting this together. Whether it's useful or not is up to debate. If anyone wants provide (or PM) me with settings, I'll plug them in. I'll need to know:
1) machine
2) material
3) thickness if cutting
4) speed (percentage or inches)
5) power (percentage or watts)
6) resolution or frequency
7) notes (optional)

Any format will do if it's consistant. I'll just regex the data.