TS Alignment- Master Plate or not?

[Greg Muller]

All,

You have all given me some good advice before (other than a few who need to use a mask around those vapors when finishing :D), so I am calling on your collective genius once again.

I am moving most of my larger iron into my new shop, and had to dismantle my Jet tablesaw for the transfer. I am going to take advantage of this by trying to set it back up as accurately as is practical- practical being the key word here.

I am sure some of you have tried the Master Plate -http://www.amazon.com/MasterGage-MP-1-MasterPlate/dp/B00006RGLC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1202698605&sr=1-1

should I invest in one of these, or is using a saw blade good enough for "practical" accuracy?

Either way, I do plan on using a dial gauge, etc...

Thanks for the advice,

Greg

[Bruce Wrenn]

For less than $20, buy John White's book "Care and Repair of Shop Machines." He show how to use a HF dial indicator and a couple of scraps to make a jig that will do what the Master Plate does. This is one of my favorite books.

[Billy Reynolds]

I just completed a tune up on my Jet saw a couple of days ago and opted for the master plate. Seem to obtain better repeatability than using a blade.

[Lance Norris]

I have the Master Plate and Superbar. I recommend both.

[Eric Haycraft]

I am going to go against the grain here. If you have any measurable runout on the arbor, the plate becomes useless and using a good quality blade will be much more accurate. You simply pick one tooth on the blade, mark it with a marker and use that to make your adjustments. Obviously a gauge block is required, but I feel that the plate isn't worthwhile.

Eric

[Greg Muller]

Eric,

correct me if I'm wrong here (which I am frequently), but isn't having the MasterPlate supposed to help you to discover if you have runout or not? If found, then I can correct it and move on to the rest of the measurements.

Greg

[Gary Keedwell]

I am going to go against the grain here. If you have any measurable runout on the arbor, the plate becomes useless and using a good quality blade will be much more accurate. You simply pick one tooth on the blade, mark it with a marker and use that to make your adjustments. Obviously a gauge block is required, but I feel that the plate isn't worthwhile.

Eric
I think were mixing apples and oranges here. The plate is to measure the runout of the flange which the blade rests on. A flange that is not perpendicular to the the arbor and table will cause a wobble in the blade.
Gary

[Eric Haycraft]

I believe that the main goal of the plate is to adjust the blade parallel to the slot. If you have arbor runout (my saw does) the only way to make this adjustment is to have an object that rotates with the arbor (a blade typically) to check the parallelism. When I check mine, I put a dot on a tooth and check that tooth at the front, rotate the blade via the belt and check that same tooth at the back. There is no way to do this rotation with the plate, so unless you have zero runout at the arbor, you won't end up with an accurate result.

my $.02

[Dave Falkenstein]

Eric,

correct me if I'm wrong here (which I am frequently), but isn't having the MasterPlate supposed to help you to discover if you have runout or not? If found, then I can correct it and move on to the rest of the measurements.

Greg

I don't see how a flat plate is going to measure runout. Checking for runout is a seperate test, done by rotating the arbor itself. A MasterPlate and a saw blade are both supposedly flat. Using either will allow you to set the blade parallel to the miter slot. I use a saw blade myself.

The photo in Billy's post shows a TS-Aligner, in addition to the MasterPlate. I use the TS-Aligner, Jr and I think it is worth the one-time expense. It is easy to use, accurate and works in a variety of setup and measurement applications in the shop.

http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsalignerjr.htm

[Tom Henderson2]

I am going to go against the grain here. If you have any measurable runout on the arbor, the plate becomes useless and using a good quality blade will be much more accurate. You simply pick one tooth on the blade, mark it with a marker and use that to make your adjustments. Obviously a gauge block is required, but I feel that the plate isn't worthwhile.

Eric

Hi Eric-

I agree with your point that a Master Plate is not a cure-all. But I don't agree that using the one-spot-on-the-blade technique eliminates arbor FLANGE runout from the data.

At any location, you will measure the sum of arbor flange runout and blade runout.

Using a blade, and rotating it so that both the fore- and aft-readings are taken from the same spot DOES eliminate the BLADE runout from the data.

But the influence of FLANGE runout will still be in the data. If you remount the blade with the arbor turned 90 degrees, you will get different results than you did initially even if you use a blade as described above.

So using the one-tooth-on-the-blade method and the master plate should give you the same results.

The plate is smoother, and it is a bit easier to use since you don't have to spin the blade. And the plate can be turned so that the long dimention is up, and that makes for easier angle setups.

But you need to account for arbor flange wobble regardless of which method you use, either by finding the arbor angles that give the min- and max- wobble and setting the plate/blade up at the midpoint, or the best way which is fixing the arbor itself.

I'll bet your saw has negligible arbor flange wobble, in which case your method of aligning to one spot on the blade WILL give you the best alignment. But if the arbor is wobbly, you need to account for it.

My $0.02

-Tom Henderson
Ventura, CA

-Tom H.
Ventura, CA

[Eric Haycraft]

Hi Eric-

Using a blade, and rotating it so that both the fore- and aft-readings are taken from the same spot DOES eliminate the BLADE runout from the data.

But the influence of FLANGE runout will still be in the data. If you remount the blade with the arbor turned 90 degrees, you will get different results than you did initially even if you use a blade as described above.


The point of rotating the blade is to cancel out both the blade's runout and the plate/blade's runout at the same time. This rotation is the only way to cancel out both and why I suggest that you need to use the same tooth and rotate the blade. Since you can't rotate the plate without remounting it, there is no way to cancel out the arbor runout with the plate. If you don't rotate the arbor when making these adjustments, you will not be parallel to the slot when there is any arbor runout..period..no matter how flat the surface (blade or plate) is that you use to make your adjustments.
If there is runout in the arbor, the plate will amplify the runout and cause a misalignment. That's why you need something that can be rotated with the arbor - because the measurement needs to be made in relation to the same spot on the arbor. You can mount a piece of wood or steel bar, but it is just as simple and accurate to use a blade to dial the table into alignment.

[Greg Muller]

Again, you guys are pointing out issues that I had not even considered.

I thought that you could rotate the MasterPlate just like a blade. :confused:
That would prove more useful. Are you guys sure that you can't?

Billy and Lance- you guys own one- it won't rotate like a blade?


I assumed that it would work identical to a blade except that it would guarantee flatness.

Greg

[Billy Reynolds]

I only posted the picture to show the plate in use. The first step I used in my tune-up was to use the TS Aligner to check for arbor runout. Had I detected a arbor runout problem......I would have been looking at correcting the problem before proceeding with the tune-up. May I suggest if you use the blade or plate for alignment with a arbor runout problem.......you still have a problem.......I would be looking seriously at the arbor bearings. My .02 worth. Maybe we are getting away from the purpose of the original post. The picture does not depict a test for arbor runout but plate (blade) being parallel with miter slot. Greg the plate can not be rotated 360 degrees.

[Dave Falkenstein]

...I thought that you could rotate the MasterPlate just like a blade. :confused:
...Greg

Simply look at the photo in Billy's post. There is so way to rotate the MasterPlate, if it is mounted with the long dimension parallel to the saw top. Mounted the other way, you could rotate it some, but doubtfully enough to use the same spot on the plate to take a reading with the dial gauge.

First things first. As previously mentioned, the arbor must be tested first for runout. If there is arbor runout, the blade will not run true, period. The arbor runout issue must be resolved first. The good news is that most saws have no appreciable arbor runout.

One thing about using the blade and rotating it - you must be certain you do not push on the blade, deflecting it while rotating it. It is surprisingly easy to deflect the blade a few thousandths, making the reading incorrect.

[Greg Muller]

Simply look at the photo in Billy's post. There is so way to rotate the MasterPlate, if it is mounted with the long dimension parallel to the saw top.

Dave,
I looked at the photo previously. The Master Plate is only 10" long (same as a blade even if the diagonal measurment would be longer)- I thought maybe the pic was taken using a TS with a short opening. My Jet has a 13" opening. I supposed that with the extra length available it could still be rotated.

Greg

[Eric Haycraft]

I have .0025 arbor runout which translates to .0075 runout at the teeth on my saw or .015 from front of the blade to the back.. Both are 'in spec' according to the manufacturer. Even a .001 runout which is pretty darn good these days will cause .004 or more at the edge of the blade. Therefore, you could easily end up .008 (2 times .004) out on a typical saw using the plate. I can get much closer than .008 using the blade. The whole point of my rant is that this plate can't guarantee accuracy any more than simply using a blade and making careful measurements. As noted, you have to be careful to not deflect the blade, but that is somewhat easy if you use the belt to rotate the blade. For those of you that have the plate, put it in and adjust. Then remount the plate with the arbor turned 45 degrees and repeat until you complete the 360. I can almost guarantee that your results won't be the same on every test.
One of these days I plan on yanking the arbor and seeing if a machinist can fix it, but until that day, using the blade rotation method is highly accurate and even if I had .0000 arbor runout I doubt I would trust the plate. Any dirt on the arbor would cause an error and it is simply more accurate to use a device that rotates with the blade to make these adjustments. We may have to agree to disagree, but I see this product as having a design flaw that other 'free' methods compensate for.

[Chris Padilla]

I have the Master Plate and Superbar. I recommend both.

Ditto...great set-up tools. You may not use them much but then again, if you are using them alot, you have more serious problems with some of your machines! ;)

YES, you can rotate the Master Plate and check run-out but that is not what it is meant for. Use a dial indicator on the arbor flange to check run-out there. You may need extension pieces on your dial indicator to reach that far down into your TS, FYI.

[Greg Muller]

Okay, I now have 3 sources who have told me that the MasterPlate will rotate 360* in my saw, including my local Woodcraft GM and an engineer who has the same saw as I . He hadn't used it in a while, but went to his shop and called me while he was using it.

Now, then...back to the original question-

Does using the Master Plate have a practical advantage???????


Greg

[Dave Falkenstein]

...Does using the Master Plate have a practical advantage???????
Greg

OK - I see I was wrong in my assumption that the MasterPlate does not have room to rotate.

In regard to your question above - no significant advantage that I can see. Which is the reason I looked at the MasterPlate and decided not to buy it a while back. A blade serves the same purpose in setting up your saw. However, since the MasterPlate is 6" X 10", you will get a bit more horizontal distance to measure with the dial gauge using the plate. Not enough to justify the plate, IMHO, but some.

[Greg Muller]

Thanks, Dave.

i'm starting to get the idea that a good flat blade will be good enough as long as all the steps are followed. I would really rather not spend the $70 on the plate if "practicality" doesn't demand it. I'd rather buy more good wood, but be accurate enough to not ruin good wood, if you follow me...:o

Greg

[Glen Blanchard]

When references are made to marking the blade and rotating it, exactly what is "marked"? The carbide tip? It would seem, that since this is a small surface, it would not lend itself well to this technique. Do y'all place your mark on the face of the saw closer to the gullet or actually on the carbide?

[Billy Reynolds]

Greg I wanted to follow up because I was thinking maybe I had given you some miss information about the plate not being able to rotate a complete 360 degrees on the Jet 10" TS. This had gotten my curosity up enough to make some checks this morning. One thing to remember is the plate is rectangular and not circular.....I have included a picture with the approx dimensions. With the arbor all the way up and the plate mounted with high side up I can not even begin to get 360 rotation. With the arbor all the way down and the plate mounted with the high side down I can nearly get full rotation....the plate hits the dust deflector bolts stopping rotation. The deflector is mounted on stand-offs and they are a pain to put back on...been there....done that. Hope this clears up any information I may have given. Hope the deminisions on the plate helps to clarify things a little.

[Eric Haycraft]

My gauge has a fairly large platter to measure with, so the teeth work for me. I always check blade runout this way since the teeth may be ground in a flatter plane than the saw blade. Anyway, you would get the same result just making a dot near the edge of the blade and measuring against that for blade to slot checking..and probably easier to accomplish to boot. The key is to measure against the same spot on the blade..be it the teeth or the body of the blade near the edge. Whatever is easiest for you and feels most comfortable is what you should do.

[Louis Rucci]

I may create a little controversy here, so here goes.

10 yrs ago I bought the Align-It kit followed by the Master Plate. Thought I had a good setup and spent a number of hours aligning my TS. At the time I also bought my saw and a PAL's set.

Anyway, I purchase the TS-Aligner after a number of email conversation with the owner. He indicated that the MasterPlate was not flat and offered to test mine.

Turned out it's .003" out of tolerence. Don't know about some of the woodworkers here, but I don't want to align my TS with a reference that induces mis-alignment.

NOw, I haven't used my TS-aligner yet. Let's say life has interferred, but hope to have my shop finished enough to start tuning my tools this summer.

Pls take this with a grain of salt of my experience.

[Chris Padilla]

Well, I never checked my Plate but guess what, I'll have to do that! :) I have a nice steel Starrett straight-edge that is supposed to be 0.2 mil per 12" tolerance for flatness so that little tool always tells the real story! :)

All I can say is that I'm happy with my TS and happy with my CMS and both appear to cut square and as I think they are supposed to. :D

[Dave Falkenstein]

When references are made to marking the blade and rotating it, exactly what is "marked"? The carbide tip? It would seem, that since this is a small surface, it would not lend itself well to this technique. Do y'all place your mark on the face of the saw closer to the gullet or actually on the carbide?

I measure using a spot on the blade as close to one carbide tip as I can get. Using that method gives me the largest distance from front to rear.

[Warren Clemans]

I have the bar and plate and have gotten great results with them. I use the plate for two things--checking that the blade is parallel to the fence/miter slots and checking that the blade is exactly 90 degrees to the table. The first point has been discussed, and I agree that you can get good results using just the blade.

I think the master plate is much better than a blade for checking 90 degrees. I find it difficult to use a machinist's square on a blade, but it's a piece of cake using the master plate. Not sure that's sufficient reason to invest in one, but it works for me.

[Chris Padilla]

Not sure that's sufficient reason to invest in one, but it works for me.

It all depends on how fussy one is with their TS alignments and their wallets.... :p

[Greg Muller]

Greg I wanted to follow up because I was thinking maybe I had given you some miss information about the plate not being able to rotate a complete 360 degrees on the Jet 10" TS. This had gotten my curosity up enough to make some checks this morning. One thing to remember is the plate is rectangular and not circular.....I have included a picture with the approx dimensions. With the arbor all the way up and the plate mounted with high side up I can not even begin to get 360 rotation. With the arbor all the way down and the plate mounted with the high side down I can nearly get full rotation....the plate hits the dust deflector bolts stopping rotation. The deflector is mounted on stand-offs and they are a pain to put back on...been there....done that. Hope this clears up any information I may have given. Hope the deminisions on the plate helps to clarify things a little.

As I said in my earlier post, I know the plate is not circular.

The engineer I spoke to said he used a "parallel form" to shim out the Master Plate in order to be able to rotate it. He knew the deflection of said "parallel form" to be .0003" (yes, 3/10,000's) measured by laser caliper and merely accounted for that amount. He rattled off a lot of referential data that went completely over my head, but he said he knows his tolerences are within .004" final adjustment. He said if a woodworker ever asks for more accuracy than that, then tell them to get into NASA and out of woodworking.

If he is full of cow manure and trying to get some on me, then I'm afraid to say it stuck and you guys are just going to have to help clean me off.:eek:

Obviously, I don't have "laser calipers" or anything of the sort, so again, I am forced to just ask- is using a blade a "practical" solution?

Billy- do you think you end up with better overall results by using the Master Plate for alignment?

Greg

[Billy Reynolds]

I did not purchase the master plate to check arbor runout......I wanted a more stable stock to reference against when I loosened the top and started adjusting that heavy top. The cleaning and tune-up project was a great learning experience and was very successfull. One thing I learned early before the master plate is that a sticky dial indicator and a thin kerf saw blade can surely cause you grief. Greg I might mention that on the Exacta fence I replace the allen head set screws use to adjust the fence with 3/8 X1/2 sqare head set screws...now I can use a 3/8 open end wrench to make adjustment and not fight trying to get an allen wrench in the end. Someone mentioned NASA.....I was a launch team member during both Gemini & Apollo Projects at the Cape....does that mean that I should throw my caliper and dial indicators away...ha

[Greg Muller]

I did not purchase the master plate to check arbor runout......I wanted a more stable stock to reference against when I loosened the top and started adjusting that heavy top. The cleaning and tune-up project was a great learning experience and was very successfull. One thing I learned early before the master plate is that a sticky dial indicator and a thin kerf saw blade can surely cause you grief. Greg I might mention that on the Exacta fence I replace the allen head set screws use to adjust the fence with 3/8 X1/2 sqare head set screws...now I can use a 3/8 open end wrench to make adjustment and not fight trying to get an allen wrench in the end. Someone mentioned NASA.....I was a launch team member during both Gemini & Apollo Projects at the Cape....does that mean that I should throw my caliper and dial indicators away...ha


Billy,
I don't think he meant it the way you took it. He said if you wanted greater than .004" accuracy when dealing with WOOD or dialing in WW machines, then you are asking for more than is reasonable. He is a woodworker himself and understands the tolerances needed for it. Don't think of it as an insult, but a level of reasonability. After all, I did ask for results that are "practical" for woodworking.

Congrats on the resume', by the way...I am jealous as my first two years in college were consumed with theoretical mathematics- I wanted to work for NASA until I was overcome with greed and the big money in accounting:o ...

Anyway... what is the answer to my question in your opinion? Get the MasterPlate or not?

Greg

[Josiah Bartlett]

I corrected the arbor runout in my unisaw by removing the blade, mounting a good fresh stone in my 4" angle grinder, fabbing a jig to hold it in place with the flat plane of the stone against the arbor, and powering up both the saw and the grinder. After about 5 minutes and an untold number of sparks, I had a very true arbor. Make sure you clean the sawdust out of the bottom of your saw before you do this. Also, its a good idea to only do it if you know you can afford a new arbor for your saw in case you screw it up, and make sure the bearings run ok. My arbor was so bad I was going to have to replace it, now it runs true.

[Gary Keedwell]

I have the bar and plate and have gotten great results with them. I use the plate for two things--checking that the blade is parallel to the fence/miter slots and checking that the blade is exactly 90 degrees to the table. The first point has been discussed, and I agree that you can get good results using just the blade.

I think the master plate is much better than a blade for checking 90 degrees.
I find it difficult to use a machinist's square on a blade, but it's a piece of cake using the master plate. Not sure that's sufficient reason to invest in one, but it works for me.
That's where a Wixey digital gage works great.

Gary

[Billy Reynolds]

Greg this served me well for years.....can't get much more economical than this. When I decided to under take this last project....I wanted something that would be a little more precise and furnish me some data. It was scary to thing that I would losen the bolts and start bumping that big top into alignment. I was thankfull I had the TS dial indicator and the master plate.
The LOML says that I have always been more than anal when striving for perfection.

So the decision is yours.

[Tom Henderson2]

The point of rotating the blade is to cancel out both the blade's runout and the plate/blade's runout at the same time.

But just using one tooth on the blade doesn't do that Eric.

Your method DOES null the BLADE runout.

It does nothing about the arbor FLANGE runout.

So using a blade, or the plate DO THE SAME THING. Neither method does anything about FLANGE runout.

If your method truly nulled out FLANGE runout, then the tolerances for FLANGE runout would be much more generous.

I wish you were right; if you were I wouldn't be looking at replacing/truing the arbor on my saw which is producing 0.0025 runout at the flange. But it won't, so the arbor has to come out for rework.

-Tom H.

[Eric Haycraft]

Thanks, I was trying to figure out how to do just that and your idea seems much better than anything that I was coming up with. I figured there had to be a way to machine it in place.

[Eric Haycraft]

But just using one tooth on the blade doesn't do that Eric.

It does nothing about the arbor FLANGE runout.


Actually it does, but I don't really feel like arguing about this anymore. I realize that you don't want to hear that you spent 50 bucks on something that doesn't work so I'll let you decide to research it or not. If you do decide to look into the plate's flaw, I am sure most table saw adjustment books can explain the issue or even talking with machinists or engineers would do. If you have cad software you can mock the arbor up and see the problem there too. You can even check for yourself by adjusting your saw with the plate, rotating the arbor 90 degrees and reattaching the plate and you will suddenly find your table out of adjustment.

In the end we may just have to agree to disagree. Regardless, I mean you no ill will.

Best wishes,

Eric

[Josiah Bartlett]

Thanks, I was trying to figure out how to do just that and your idea seems much better than anything that I was coming up with. I figured there had to be a way to machine it in place.

Glad I could share it. The easiest way to jig it is to make a cradle to hold the grinder to the fence and use it to keep the stone face parallel to the arbor. It doesn't have to be exact because both parts are spinning but it creates a smooth grind that way. I set it up to make the arbor face slightly concave so the blade contacts just the outer diameter. Its just barely enough to do this, you don't want it too concave or the blade will dish or not have enough contact area to not slip. The nice thing about this setup is that it runs pretty slow. I stopped it a few times to make sure it was running right, and I was able to watch the high spots get shiny first, then eventually the whole thing was shiny. Now I don't have accurate enough equipment to measure the runout, its so small.

[Eddie Darby]

I skip the plate as it is limited to the length of the slot opening in the table saw top.

Instead I use a long narrow piece of wood with a 5/8" hole drilled in it. Mount it on the arbor, and measure.
I mark an "x" on it where I measure it at the back of the saw, and then swing it to the front, and measure at the same point on the "x".
Since it is the same spot on the wood, I am getting a fairly accurate reading.
I already know that my saw arbor has 0.0005" of run out, and the wood is rotating less than 180 degrees. So the swing from front to back isn't changing very much. Perhaps only around 0.0002" or less which is extremely small.

Once I have the table miter slot aligned with the blade, I put in the miter slot a tight fitting piece of wood or UHMW plastic that is 3/4" thick into the miter slot, and then clamp my fence to it. Now I just tighten my fence bolts, and lock in the fence.

[Brian Dormer]

You aren't going to cut any wood with the plate - you are going to use a blade. If the blade isn't on the arbor nice and square - you have a problem. If the blade isn't already pretty close to perfectly flat - you have a problem.

If you measure off the plate, then put the blade on and get a wood chip in the flange (knocking the blade off kilter), you won't notice until you make a cut and the blade wobbles, you have a kickback or burn the wood.

Maybe if you had a job aligning TS's all day long, it would make sense.

IMHO - skip the plate and spend that money on a better TS blade, then just measure off the blade.

[Bill Farlow]

I may create a little controversy here, so here goes.

10 yrs ago I bought the Align-It kit followed by the Master Plate. Thought I had a good setup and spent a number of hours aligning my TS. At the time I also bought my saw and a PAL's set.

Anyway, I purchase the TS-Aligner after a number of email conversation with the owner. He indicated that the MasterPlate was not flat and offered to test mine.

Turned out it's .003" out of tolerence. Don't know about some of the woodworkers here, but I don't want to align my TS with a reference that induces mis-alignment.

NOw, I haven't used my TS-aligner yet. Let's say life has interferred, but hope to have my shop finished enough to start tuning my tools this summer.

Pls take this with a grain of salt of my experience.

Hi guys, my first post so I hope I don't say anything wrong.

I have a friend who bought a Master Plate. Still had burning after aligning his saw so he took it to work to measure it. Turns out it was out by more than .005" (no "laser calipers" needed!). So he exchanged it for a new one but the new one wasn't flat either. When he called to get his money back they told him that it was "in spec" and that he could upgrade to one that was "flatter" for a bunch more money. :eek: His experience helped me make up my mind on the topic.

The TS-Aligner guy talks about using flat plates on his web site (among other common woodworking folklore):

http://www.ts-aligner.com/alignmentmyths.htm

Dave and Eric are right. Using a spot marked on the blade eliminates blade warp and arbor runout for the blade/slot alignment measurement. I think I see where the confustion is. When you rotate the blade, you don't loosen the arbor nut. You rotate the blade and the arbor together. If you loosen the arbor nut and turn only the blade (arbor remains stationary), then you only eliminate blade warp, the arbor runout isn't eliminated (which makes it a handy test for arbor runout :).)

Also, I mark a spot on the blade plate when using a dial indicator. The teeth are ground at an angle and so it's difficult to get a good reading on a tooth. Use a tooth with the low-tech method (feeling the scrape with a stick and the miter gauge).

[Dave Falkenstein]

Bill-...If I'm wrong (and it certainly won't be the first time) I hope somebody can explain why.

-Tom H.
Ventura, CA

Tom - Did you read the link above? Here's a quote from the link:

"The geometry is pretty simple. If you mark a spot on your blade with a felt tip pen, and then rotate the arbor on your saw, that spot will travel in a circular path. The circle traced out by the spot will lie in a plane. That plane will be perfectly perpendicular to the axis of rotation of the arbor. It doesn't matter if the blade is flat or not. It could be bent like a potato chip and the spot will still trace a circle which lies in a plane perpendicular to the arbor's axis of rotation. Arbor run out (from being bent) will not affect the path of the spot either. If you always place the stylus of your dial indicator on the spot when you make a measurement, rotating the blade as necessary, then your results will be more reliable than any flat plate can provide...."

Of course, as stated earlier in this thread, you should eliminate arbor runout FIRST. Then align the blade to the miter slot. If a saw does have out-of-spec arbor runout, the blade will wobble, no matter how flat the blade might be, or how well aligned the blade is to the miter slot.

As clearly explained in the TS-Aligner link, all you need is a blade marked with a spot and a dial indicator. A flat plate is not needed, and can introduce an error, because flat plates are not generally flat. If MasterPlate says .004 is within spec, it is obvious that flat plates are not flat! When measuring blade alignment with my TS-Aligner, Jr, I get readings within .001 on my table saw. Sure, that is overkill for woodworking, but it is easy to attain that level of accuracy using an accurate dial gauge setup tool.

ps - It seems that Tom's post that I quoted was deleted. Hmmm.

[Tom Henderson2]

The TS-Aligner guy talks about using flat plates on his web site (among other common woodworking folklore):

http://www.ts-aligner.com/alignmentmyths.htm

Dave and Eric are right. Using a spot marked on the blade eliminates blade warp and arbor runout for the blade/slot alignment measurement. I think I see where the confustion is. When you rotate the blade, you don't loosen the arbor nut. You rotate the blade and the arbor together. If you loosen the arbor nut and turn only the blade (arbor remains stationary), then you only eliminate blade warp, the arbor runout isn't eliminated (which makes it a handy test for arbor runout :).)

You are correct Bill. And I was just flat *wrong* when I posted otherwise on this thread, and others.

The "one spot" method does align the miter slots to be perpendicular to the arbor centerline -- which is what we are trying to do.

BUT -- and this is where I had fallen off the turnip truck earlier -- if you have significant arbor flange runout you will still get a lot of wobble, which the wood WILL see, and this will cause poor cut quality and all the other bad stuff that blade wobble creates.

So to summarize...

1) the "one spot" method should allign the miter slots to be perpendicular to the arbor centerline
2) this is the best you can do
3) The "one spot" method does not "eliminate" blade or arbor runout, and if you have blade or arbor runout you will still see blade wobble. But your miter slots will be aligned to the arbor properly.
4) the Master Plate (and similar products) will *not* give you a good alignment if used as directed. They are not machined flat enough, and using them as directed does not compensate for arbor flange runout. So using them as directe will align the slots to the *arbor flange* and will give different results at different plate/arbor clockings.

Thanks to all of you for your patience with me on this one. I was just flat wrong about this but couldn't see the forest for the trees!

-Tom H.
Ventura, CA

[Tom Henderson2]

Tom - Did you read the link above? Here's a quote from the link:


ps - It seems that Tom's post that I quoted was deleted. Hmmm.

HI Dave-

I did read the link, but not until after I made the post you replied to. (there is a lesson there....)

After reading the link and giving it some thought I saw that I was wrong, deleted the original post and replaced with the one you should see now.

Nothing like a lot of spectators when you get something wrong!

Thanks to all for the education.

-Tom H.
Ventura, CA

[Dave Falkenstein]

Thanks Tom. That clears up the mystery. I must have been posting at the same time you were changing your earlier post.

[Tom Henderson2]

For less than $20, buy John White's book "Care and Repair of Shop Machines." He show how to use a HF dial indicator and a couple of scraps to make a jig that will do what the Master Plate does. This is one of my favorite books.

Bruce-

I wanted to thank you for the point-out to John White's book. It is excellent!

Well worth the money.

-Tom H.

[Daniel Hillmer]

I've been reading this entire thread, it's all very interesting.

Any superbar - master plate owners - didn't Grizzly once offer the super bar and the master plate as a kit?

Because last week I could swear that I saw the super bar and master plate on their web site for a 69.95 kit price, I thought the guy in tech support even told me they were available in kit form. Now I'm looking on their site and they are sold separately for the 120 buck price. Anyone ever buy this in a kit form either from grizzly or on amazon or ebay?

[Chris Padilla]

I don't recall them being offered in kit form at $70 for both because that is quite a good price compared to individual purchase.

But if you read and absorbed the thread, you should be convinced NOT to spend money on the Master Plate. I honestly don't recall if I ever took my Master Plate to measure if it is +/-0.001" of being flat but perhaps I will try and remember to do that again.

The SuperBar, however, is excellent and I would highly recommend that.

[Daniel Hillmer]

I don't recall them being offered in kit form at $70 for both because that is quite a good price compared to individual purchase.

But if you read and absorbed the thread, you should be convinced NOT to spend money on the Master Plate. I honestly don't recall if I ever took my Master Plate to measure if it is +/-0.001" of being flat but perhaps I will try and remember to do that again.

The SuperBar, however, is excellent and I would highly recommend that.

Thanks maybe it was just a subconscious wish to save money hehe .

Yes I gathered that from the thread, buy the superbar, but don't waste the money on the master plate - that pretty much the final consensus in the thread?

Maybe I'll call grizzly and ask them if they can put superbar up on ebay so I can get the MS cash back deal.

Do you think I would gain any accuracy if I spent 390 or 133 bucks for either of the ts-aligners in terms of woodworking accuracy, or are those just for the fanatics? If the super bar is only off by .001 compared to the ts-aligner that's one thing and I think I would go with the grizzly, but if there is a .005 or more difference, it might be better to get the tsaligner jr, what do you think?

[Chris Padilla]

I only have the SuperBar and am not familiar in the least with the products on the TS-Align site. They look very nice and I'm sure work very well but I don't have any experience with them. I'm sure you'd be happy with their product.

If you get a dial indicator (whatever it ends up being), consider getting some additional tips for the dial indicator. I have this kit (http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1783&category=) from the Little Machine Shop.

[Tom Veatch]

When references are made to marking the blade and rotating it, exactly what is "marked"? ...

It really doesn't matter what or how it's marked. The intent is to use the same spot on the blade to take all measurements. The side of a tooth is an ideal spot because the tooth is small enough that any point on the tooth's side is close enough to any other point on the tooth's side that no appreciable error is introduced.

Marking the tooth is simply to identify the tooth used to take the first measurement so that the same tooth can be used for the next measurement. Any convenient method that allows that tooth to be identified after the blade is rotated will work. Personally, I use a "magic marker" to mark the blade disk adjacent to the tooth.

[Chris Padilla]

On the TS-Align site, they have a video showing a mark made on the body of the blade. As Tom pointed out, the gist is to measure at the same spot in the front and back of the blade whether it be or a tooth or the blade body.

[Steven J Corpstein]

Bruce,
Take a look at this thread. I've been doing it the same way for a long time (a carry over from my days in the machine shop) and it is without a doubt the most accurate, repeatable way to align machines.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=32315&highlight=dial+indicator+bruce

[Pete Bradley]

Another vote for measuring off the same blade tooth front and back. Works for me.

Pete