Cleaning cast iron wd40 + mineral spirits + J.Paste Wax = mess HELP

[Jason Scott]

Hey all,

So I had some rust develping on my 64A table top, so I used wd40 to go over the whole thing with a little 220 grit paper and it looked nice again...So I tried cleaning the wd40 off (if there was any left behind) with mineral spirits and then put on Jonsons paste wax...well I can not seem to "buff" off the wax, I mean some did, but it still looks like the "swirl marks" from the wax are still on the table top...So I used some wd40 to see what that would do, then mineral spirits and made a mess...It then dawned on me I do not know "how" to do this...I am sick of working my but off on this and it not coming out right...Is there any product that is an all in 1????? I NEVER want to wax cast iron again, I hate how it comes off, if it does...I heard some of you all talk about "bosheild"? I just want to know if there is something I can put on, rub rust out if need be, and wipe off which will protect it...I am thinking just wd40 and that is it, but I have heard it can cause problems with finishing...Please help me out, how do I strip everything off the top now? Mineral spirits gives me a headache after only a short time so something less toxic would be nice...Please let me know, thanks,

Jason

[Norman Pyles]

I use Bosheild to prevent rust. Be sure what ever you use has fully dried, before you use any wax. I have no idea how to remove what you have now. Good luck.

[Mike Cutler]

Hey all,

So I had some rust develping on my 64A table top, so I used wd40 to go over the whole thing with a little 220 grit paper and it looked nice again...So I tried cleaning the wd40 off (if there was any left behind) with mineral spirits and then put on Jonsons paste wax...well I can not seem to "buff" off the wax, I mean some did, but it still looks like the "swirl marks" from the wax are still on the table top...So I used some wd40 to see what that would do, then mineral spirits and made a mess...It then dawned on me I do not know "how" to do this...I am sick of working my but off on this and it not coming out right...Is there any product that is an all in 1????? I NEVER want to wax cast iron again, I hate how it comes off, if it does...I heard some of you all talk about "bosheild"? I just want to know if there is something I can put on, rub rust out if need be, and wipe off which will protect it...I am thinking just wd40 and that is it, but I have heard it can cause problems with finishing...Please help me out, how do I strip everything off the top now? Mineral spirits gives me a headache after only a short time so something less toxic would be nice...Please let me know, thanks,

Jason

Jason

Breathe Bro', breathe.

Everything can be stripped off the top with turpentine, or acetone, naptha, Lacquer thinner, alcohol, or even good old kerosene. Get a respirator with the proper cartridge if the vapors are causing a problem. Get a big roll of paper towels. Don't scrub, but wipe, and turn the towels to present a new cleaning surface to the top.
To remove rust and then apply a barrier is a two step process at best. I don't know of a single product that does it alone.

WD-40 alone will not prevent rust. It is a rust inhibitor that works by displacing water. "WD" is Water Displacer. It is a combination of mineral spirits, CO2, Mineral oil and a gas product.
It is 50% mineral spirits, that's why you couldn't clean it off with mineral spirits alone.
Get the top stripped down to metal and remove all of the "gunk". the top should feel dry to the touch. if not, you still have gunk on it.
I use acetone, or denatured alcohol as the last step and wipe everything down repeatedly, Then I apply a marine paste wax, FleetWax. The Johnson's should have worked, but I've heard rumblings that Johnson's changed the formula for their paste wax, so maybe there is an issue here. I can't be absolutely certain.
I've never used the Boeshields, but I've never heard a negative review of it either. It must work, or we would have heard about it.

Look at the bright side. You're top is certainly not rusting with that witches brew currently on it.;)

[Ben Rafael]

Fantastic is great at cleaning that garbage off.

[Lee Koepke]

i havent used boeshields either, but i think the top still could use a coat of wax after you are finished. It just makes stuff slide on my soooooo much better. I even waxed my side table (mdf) often, and that is slick as glass too ..

[James Rowe]

I have done the same exact thing and it worked fine except I use a degreaser like SimpleGreen or Fantastic prior to putting the wax on. Any good non-solvent based degreaser would work. You don't really need anything other than one of these cleaners to remove the WD-40.

You do not need much wax so go light (I am sure you know that.) , otherwise you will just end up having to buff forever until you end up with a thin coat of wax. You should be able to remove the wax with most solvents...just make sure you have good ventilation, a respirator alone is not enough.

Jaimie

[jack howery]

Well hate to disagree but boeshield gave me terrible protection on my new ts.Johnson wax did a much better jiob.I bought a new 22124 paid 20 for the boeshield and it did a terrible job.I do not endorse it myself.IMHO.

[Brad Ridgway]

I have a spin off of this

1) I made the mistake of assembling a picture frame on my table saw top once and the glue soaked through the paper towels i had underneath. It rusted pretty quick and I scrubbed (forever!) with some fine steel wool and WD40 and got the rust off. But the dark discoloration / stain is still there and my mirror top is no more.

2) i also have some scratches - not horrible but they're visible and you can feel em if you run your hand over them

Will the 220 grit approach work on this? Or do i need something coarser and work my way down. I've been reluctant to try anything but steeel wool till now.


GI 185 contractor if it matters so all solid iron...

thx
-brad

[Joe Chritz]

That isn't discoloration it is patina.

If the scratches are above the surface they need to be knocked down. 220 should work fine, a fine file if they are really bad.

Joe

[Keith Outten]

Jason,

I never use anything on my cast iron but Johnson's wax. I apply it with a soft rag and almost immediately start buffing with a White Scotch 3M pad on my random orbital sander. I buff cast iron until it is smooth as glass, sometimes a couple of coats if the humidity in our area is extremely high. If there is rust on cast iron use one of the green or maroon Scotch 3M pads on your ROS, it will remove the rust real quick and won't harm the surface...then apply wax and buff with a white pad.

This is what works for me.

[Jason Scott]

Ok, I don't know what I am doing wrong, i'm pissed and tired now :rolleyes: I went down to the shop with all the cleaners I had, no fantastic or 409 but I did have some lysol all purpose that said for degreasing...I put it on and used 0000 steel wool, in a very short time I had the nastiest brown/yellowish gook everywhere...I wiped it all off with a paper towel, I am guessing that is the wax??? I looked at the bottle and it contained "bleach" so I don't know what that did, but I did notice tiny "rust like" dots all over the top, you can't see them unless you are like 2" away, but they are there, I think they have always been there, but I guess I noticed them tonight b/c I'm trying to be so thorough...Then I put wd40 down and wiped again to clean that, then used windex (all I had) to clean the wd40...Surface felt fine, so I put a coat of wax on a small area, jonsons paste wax...The stuff just hardly comes off, it is like I move it around, I let it dry forever but it just doesn't buff off right, what is the deal????????:confused::confused: I hear you guys talk about putting it on, but how do you buff it off, mine just rubs and nothing happens, I'm very frustrated, so I put more wd40 on to get the wax marks that wouldnt come up off, so now I do not know what to do, b/c if I put this wax back on I don't know how I'll buff it off...I've waxed cars my whole life and this is nothing like that...Am I missing something here??? I would have thrown my table saw across the room if I could, but it weighs 300 lbs. Thanks for any more help...

**Edit- Let me ask this, can I just use wd40 only if I do weekly maintenance to it? I have roamed around and found that you can, but I always was worried that wd40 left a film that would interfere with finishing...If the wd40 once wiped off will dry or "whatever" and not cause a problem, I would have no problem just doing that weekly.

jason

[Charlie Plesums]

I have a spin off of this

...But the dark discoloration / stain is still there and my mirror top is no more. ....Will the 220 grit approach work on this? Or do i need something coarser and work my way down. ...-brad

Don't fight the stains... a flat piece of cast iron with stains is far better than a shiny table that isn't flat because hollows have been sanded in it. Cast iron is very porous, like wood, and stains easily without impacting performance.


Ok, I don't know what I am doing wrong, i'm pissed and tired now :rolleyes: I went down to the shop with all the cleaners I had, no fantastic or 409 but I did have some lysol all purpose that said for degreasing...I put it on and used 0000 steel wool, in a very short time I had the nastiest brown/yellowish gook everywhere...I wiped it all off with a paper towel, I am guessing that is the wax??? I looked at the bottle and it contained "bleach" so I don't know what that did, but I did notice tiny "rust like" dots all over the top, you can't see them unless you are like 2" away, but they are there, I think they have always been there, but I guess I noticed them tonight b/c I'm trying to be so thorough...Then I put wd40 down and wiped again to clean that, then used windex (all I had) to clean the wd40...Surface felt fine, so I put a coat of wax on a small area, jonsons paste wax...The stuff just hardly comes off, it is like I move it around, I let it dry forever but it just doesn't buff off right, what is the deal????????:confused::confused: I hear you guys talk about putting it on, but how do you buff it off, mine just rubs and nothing happens, I'm very frustrated, so I put more wd40 on to get the wax marks that wouldnt come up off, so now I do not know what to do, b/c if I put this wax back on I don't know how I'll buff it off...I've waxed cars my whole life and this is nothing like that...Am I missing something here??? I would have thrown my table saw across the room if I could, but it weighs 300 lbs. Thanks for any more help...

jason

Mineral spirits (paint thinner) is a good solvent to remove wax and a lot of other gunk, but you need to quickly replace it with a rust inhibitor. I put a thin coat of wax on, and just swipe at it to be sure there isn't any loose to stick to my work pieces, and don't worry about swirl marks, etc. I am more interested in how smooth boards slip across it, than how pretty it looks.

I have never had a use for WD40, but that is a religious issue - it saves some people.

Windex is a very harsh solvent... I don't use it in my shop.

[Bob Feeser]

Jason,
Calm down, your top is safe. Cast iron is always retrievable. I don't know what kind of saw you are using. If it is a PM66 with a polished top, I have different directions, than if it is not.

First off, let's get the stuff off of the top that is already on there.
Never use any water based soapy solutions on cast iron. I don't care if it is spray soap/cleaner. No water based products period.
The strongest stuff out there to get everything off of the top is lacquer thinner. It is so strong that if you get any on the paint, it may leave stains due to erosion. (Baked urethanes are an exception to that) I don't know what combination is on your top at this point. Normally, mineral spirits, or automotive degreaser for paint prep is all you need to get wax off. If you have something a little tougher, then lacquer thinner can be used very carefully. Warning: Lacquer thinner will melt your plastic switch box, it will upset any air dry paint, so use just enough of it to get the job done, but not enough to run down the side of your saw. Put some on a rag, and work a small area at a time. Paper towels to remove the wetness will lift the residues off. Use mineral spirits which is a lot less powerful, if that will do the job instead. If not, lacquer thinner.
Ok, now on to dressing the top. There are a lot of different rust removers, and Naval Jelly is one of those. If you have rust spots all over the top, you could use that. If your top is rusted generally, and not a polished PM66 top, you could use a Random orbit sander with 80 grit, keeping it at a slow speed, and FLAT on the table. Don't lift it at an angle to dig any divots. Then go back over it with 120, then 150, and even 220 for a final passes. Or you could use some elbow grease, and steel wool. Let me show you a top that was done with the random orbit sander. I spent a lot of time on this one, keeping it flat, slowly, patiently moving the sander at a slow speed setting. Fast speeds makes it want to gyrate all over the place, and favor edges, instead of the flat plane of the full face you get with slow speeds.

http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/4417/2523857720100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
This was a new jointer that came shipped with rust spots. I spent a lot of time on it, starting with 80 grit, then 120, then 150, and then finishing with 220 grit ROS real slowly, and changing the 220 paper as I went along. I did use some 0000 steel wool by hand at the end.
Now as far as a top coat is concerned, I love to use WD40. It gives you a mirror shine, and I tried using paste wax, and unfortunately only put on one coat, and when I placed my hand on top of the saw, then came back the next morning, there was a rust "impression" where my hand sat. 3 coats of paste wax are necessary. Personally I like the sheen of WD40 a lot better. It only takes about 1 minute to put on, no rubbing. I use paper towels to wipe it back off, and only leave the residue that is embedded. In plain words I wipe it all off. I tried the wax, and it left a streaky dull sheen that I did not like, plus it took a lot of time to put on. The WD40 I can put on, and I can let it sit for weeks, and not have any problems with it. You may need to use a paper towel to wipe dust off of it, whereas it does attract a dust layer, moreso than wax.
If you want to see the random orbit sander procedure done on an old circa 1948 band saw, and I did not spend as much time on it with the finer stuff as I did with the jointer, here it is:

http://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/30466/2640645780100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/5382/2959895410100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

You can PM me if you have any questions. Bob

[Rob Will]

Bob is right, lacquer thinner will remove anything including the paint on the sides of your saw.

I would wipe it with lacquer thinner and then use Rust Free and a scuff pad to clean the surface. We may not agree on how to neutralize the rust free. I use soap and water then very quickly dry the surface.

I think you have oily residue mixed with too much wax.

Rob

[Russ Filtz]

Boeshield works great for me here in Florida. It essentially is wax (paraffin I think) thinned in a carrier. For normal use spray and wipe in until "dry". For storage, spray heavy and let set. You'll need to clean it off again before using, but you get the best protection that way. I'm in Tampa, so I get the gulf humidity and no problems here.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t66/Tacoboomer/wrong-mike.jpg

[Jason Scott]

Ok, I took a few photos, the first one is the worst, I didn't notice this area until I used the lysol all purpose cleaner w/ bleech and the brown/yelloish slurry started when cleaning it off...The second is an overall shot which looks good, and the third is another extreme close up at another point in the table...The marks aren't as bad as in the first but they are there...They don't seem to come out with wd40 and sandpaper, any thoughts/advice?

[Bob Feeser]

Jason,
Thank you for PM'ing me. As per my reply, I am responding also in the thread for those who may be interested. Here are 2 pictures of a PM 8" jointer, that is brand new, and still has the cosmolene coating on it, but has some deeper rust, where some water must have splashed on it, before it was treated with cosmolene, before the long boat ride from Taiwan.
Anyhow, I used the procedure that I mentioned in this thread, starting with 80 grit, then 120 etc, and spend a lot of time with 220 grit often changing the paper, and doing it lightly. Then a final rub with steel wool 0000. Then sprayed on WD40, and wiped it off with a paper towel.
Many including myself, and yourself are concerned about going to anything as rough as 80 grit. In reality, that is a concern with something as soft as wood, but with cast iron, it does not penetrate. It is not like using a grinder with 36 grit on it.
Something worth noting. Never use 80 grit, when 120 will do, and never use 120 when 180 will do etc. Try finer grits, until you get the results that remove the rust spots. Then gradually move up to the next finer grit, and finally to 220, and spend some time with 220. Move slow, keep the ROS at a slower speed so it doesn't grab erratically. Keep it flat on the table, you do not want to dig holes so to speak. Think in terms of polishing instead of digging.
The point I want to emphasize about the 80 grit is that I used to own a body shop. Would strip the paint off of metal, then use 80 grit to prep the surface. Since the metal is so hard, it would not scratch the surface. So let's say you are using 80 grit, but the sand kernels are only penetrating the metal to a depth of what you would be getting with 220 paper on wood. Try it on a rusty tool first to see what I mean.
First you have to clean the surface from any grease or wax, otherwise it will clog the paper.
Here are the pictures.
http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/42290/2347098890100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb56.webshots.com/28215/2904149970100733997S600x600Q85.jpg

You will notice that it has a better surface on it then new. I spent a lot of time with the 220 grit stage, changing paper which would quickly grow ineffective against metal. Then I rubbed it with 0000 steel wool, then WD40. I love the way it looked, and how easily the way wood would slide over it. It was like new old. You know when a tool gets worn in, it works better. Well with this polished top, the wood just glides over it, and it has a hand rubbed look to it. You will love your saw all the more when it is done, not the less. Take your time. Put on your tunes or ipod, and don't rush it. Keep it flat, that is very important. If you need to lean on an edge just a little bit to get an especially tough spot, that will not ruin anything, just don't make a habit out of it. You want to be sure and keep your table flat.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.

[Jason Scott]

Bob,

Thanks for the indepth info!!! Can you tell me what I am looking at in my first picture of my saw...Is that rust???

Thanks,

jason

[Pete Bradley]

Jason,

The only way you'll keep the top looking new forever is to maintain it frequently and never use it. Your machines were made to work, and I think you'll find them more enjoyable if you look at it that way.

Most of my machines saw 50-60 years of industrial or school use before I got them. Some have been restored to the point where they have pristine paint and are mechanically flawless, but I never try to make the tables look new. They have the darkening and thousands of scratches that real user machines get over time.

As you've found, water based cleaners and cast iron don't always get along well, but you haven't done any serious damage. I'd lay down a thin coat of good wax (I use Goddard's, but any wax that will buff out will do), rub it out, and get back to developing the character of your machines with some more woodworking.

Pete

[Greg Funk]

Jason,

It's a tablesaw not a piece of furniture:).

My recommendation would be to use the saw for a month or two and if the look of the top still bothers you have another go at sanding and polishing. To me the value of putting wax on the saw is to allow you to make cuts using less force. As soon as you start running lumber through the saw you are invariably going to get little scratches and scuffs. These will not in anyway affect the saw's performance.

Just my opinion...

Greg

PS - The brown/yellow slurry you noticed when cleaning with Lysol was rust being formed by the water in the Lysol. The pictures you showed with the speckles are also rust spots. You won't be able to 'clean' them off because the metal has actually been removed. You need to sand the area to get back to clean metal. It doesn't look very deep though so you shouldn't need to sand too much.

[Jason Scott]

Greg, thanks, and point taken about it not being furniture, I certainly get too uptight over some of this stuff, just like when I make mistakes on furniture, I get so frustrated it isn't even fun anymore...What started out as "i'm taking pride in my machine" has turned into, once again, I hate even going down there to the shop right now...maybe I'm just too uptight to be a woodworker, I don't know...I will try sanding it with a ROS like bob suggested and then leave it alone...Thanks again,

Jason

[Greg Funk]

Greg, thanks, and point taken about it not being furniture, I certainly get too uptight over some of this stuff, just like when I make mistakes on furniture, I get so frustrated it isn't even fun anymore...What started out as "i'm taking pride in my machine" has turned into, once again, I hate even going down there to the shop right now...maybe I'm just too uptight to be a woodworker, I don't know...I will try sanding it with a ROS like bob suggested and then leave it alone...Thanks again,

Jason
Jason,

I did the same thing and sanded my top until it was perfect. That lasted until I glued up a panel on top of it and dripped some glue on it. At that point I stopped trying to keep it 'perfect'. Now I'm aiming for a well used patina:)

Greg

[Bob Feeser]

Yes that is rust in the first picture. You should have seen how ugly that surface was when they first cast it, before they surfaced it. On a PM66 they take it all the way to glassy smooth. Finer, and finer grits to a polish. It is beautiful.
http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/30906/2499085830100733997S600x600Q85.jpg
That I do not know how to do, maybe some machinists can tell us. Anyhow, it seems that you are fretting too much, and that is why some of the creekers are telling you to forget about the finish on the saw, it was made to cut wood. I agree with that, but you obviously are someone who cares about whether they are cutting wood over a rusty saw top. I think the small amount of time, maybe 20 minutes to a half hour to get your top in pristine condition, then less than a minute every once in a while to spray on some WD40 and wipe it off with a paper towel, or follow the popular method of using wax, that I do not do, and at least 3 coats to start, then use the saw. You will be using a saw that you feel proud of, instead of accepting rust. Those rust stains you show in the first picture are very superficial. You may want to start out with 120, or 150 grit on ROS to see if that is sufficient. If not go into the 80. Don't press hard, do it gently, A gentle 80 is not penetrating a metal surface very much. To me rubbing down your tools initially, getting a smooth polished surface enhances the tools use. These things occur naturally over time, but if you have a rust condition, you are making 2 improvements at once. One, you are getting rid of rust instead of having it constantly growing, and eating into the surface, and 2 you are creating a smooth work surface. This really is an good example of a stitch in time saves nine. Could you imagine if I left the rust on the new PM 8" jointer top that you saw in the pictures, it would eventually be eating craters in the surface.
Don't be afraid of what I am telling you. Do you have an old rusty hand saw that you can practice on? Don't get near the teeth, they will dull right away, or maybe an old screwdriver that is rusted. Give it a try, then you will be able to do it on the table saw with confidence.
I also noticed that there are some grooves, very fine on the surface, you do not want to go so deep as to get those grooves out. If that is the case you need to use something like coarser steel wool, in the direction of the grooves with hand rubbing, or a coarse scotch brite pad.

To polish or not to polish, that is the question.
I will never forget. I used to go play tennis every Tuesday night. We played doubles. There was 3 of us, and we always needed to find a fourth. One night we brought along this guy who was wearing tattered jeans, and his racket had a string missing in it, and the wrappings on the handle were loose, so while he was using it, he would manually snug up the wrapping on every shot. The other 3 of us had gone into the pro shop, and asked which racquet to buy, and since we were going every week, we bought tennis outfits. So there we were, all prepped out, and along came the sloppy looking guy. Well let me tell you, when we started to play tennis, and this guy served, the ball would go by you so fast, you could literally hear it swoosh as it passed by your ear. He blew us all off of the court that night. So I have a lot of respect for master craftsman who know how to do something so well, and don't spend a lot of time on their tools.
On the other hand you have a David Marks. He buys old tools, and restores them beautifully. Re-dressing a top is not something to ashamed of, but rather proud of. Don't let fretting or worry about the surface on the tool stop you from using it for what it was intended. But, I do not set a coffee cup on my jointer. I do not put my water glass on my table saw. I do not use my table saw as a gluing station, I use the outfeed table for that, and place plastic over it, that I use again, and again to protect it for that.
I think a happy medium of being the ragged tennis pro, and the polished machine person who maintains the surfaces of his machines is the way to go. Becauuuusssseeeeee, Fine is the artisit who loves his tools as well as his work. By the way rust does stain wood, clean shiny cast iron does not. I can not see any advantage to having rusty cast iron top, and I can see a lot of good reason to fix the rust. What am I doing here? I am defending removing the rust from your tools. I think the answer is obvious.

Jason,
Do what I say, removing the gum first, and the way I said to do it, and use a ROS if you have one, and go through the grits, spend a little time on it, patience, gently, you are rubbing something that you love, not nervously attacking it, then show us the results. Just to show off a little bit, spend some extra time with the 220, changing the paper, then 0000 steel wool, and WD40, then show us the pictures.
Pertaining to the right attitude, I love to say, "I strive for perfection, and settle for excellence" Perfectionism is a trap. It always eludes your grasp, because there are always higher and higher levels of perfection, and you wind up chasing an elusive dream. Striving but never arriving. Don't let minor imperfections distract you from learning, and forever improving your wood working skills. Take pride in your work, and take pride in your tools, but if you wait until everything is perfect, you will never get anything done. When some minor imperfection shows up, I like to go around the shop, speaking in a German accent, calling myself, "Dr. Goodenough". :D When Frank Klaus makes a mistake, as he hand cuts near perfect dovetails, he says, "The mistakes is what gives it character" When these guys are buying old chest of drawers for 6 figures, they look for out of balance dovetails, or carvings that don't match, to prove it was hand made. So the mistakes are what makes it so valuable.


Bob,

Thanks for the indepth info!!! Can you tell me what I am looking at in my first picture of my saw...Is that rust???

Thanks,

jason

[Jim Becker]

Mineral spirits is used to remove wax...WD40 will likely do the same. If you put either on after the wax, you'll need to re-wax. It sounds like you put the wax on a bit thick...a little dab will do ya! And you can do more than one coat, buffing in between.

[Dan Lawson]

Is the issue with a potential of silicone being in the formula? Let me know and I could investigate it. I work there........

Dan

[Duncan Potter]

A knowledgeable friend recommended Top Cote to me. Spray on, buff off. Seems to work well but I am not highly particular!

[Jason Scott]

Thanks bob, will be doing your ROS trick tonight on the saw, I'll let you know how it goes...

[Jason Scott]

Bob, you were right on the money, I spent about 5 minutes gently letting the ROS with 180 grit run up and down the wing and this is the result, just like you said perfect. This photo is taken exactly where the first picture was showing the pitted rust marks all over...No pressure, just the sander and slowly back and forth...I'm going to do the whole saw tomorrow, thanks so much for your wonderful wisdom on this!