Switch to Euro combo machine?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm in a smaller shop for a while now, and I'm getting sick and tired of tripping over myself trying to get something done. If I where to switch to a euro combo machine, like the MiniMax CU300 Smart, would I have more space in my shop?

Assuming that the shaper, cabinet saw, jointer, and planer would all go, will I have more room, or will I still have about the same footprint of tools to work around? Currently, those tools are on wheels, and theoretically at least, move to a less inconvient place.

Plan B is to build a shop, so.... What do you think?

[Jim Becker]

The answer is "maybe" you might have more space...but may be not. It depends upon the size and shape of your shop space as well as how much and where you have other stuff. For a typical 5 function combo with an 8 1/2' slider, you'll need about 19' for the full travel of the slider and will want at least 8' from the saw side of the machine for crosscutting. On the J/P side, you can have less clearance to the side.

You might also consider a J/P/M combo combined with a sliding table saw or a regular cabinet saw, if you prefer, to accomplish some space consolidation.

[Kevin Groenke]

This is the easiest question ever. BUILD A NEW SHOP. Not that there's anything WRONG with combo machines, those who can adapt their workflow to the reality of switching functions use them quite successfully. They are beautifully designed/engineered/manufactured machines. But if building a new shop is really an equal alternative to buying a combo, the new shop wins. Of course it will take 3+ months (or years) to build a shop -vs- a weekend to give SMCers your old machines and move in a combo.

Individual machines are undoubtedly will give you much more versatility. Even if the combo has a mobility kit, it 6'x8' footprint will never be out-of-the-way in a small shop the way individual machines can be when you move them against the wall then it comes time to assemble those big pieces.

If I had an option to build a new shop, I would jump on it. A simple shell really doesn't have to cost THAT much more than a high-end combo machine. A 26'x36' garage in today's Menards ad goes for $6239. Of course by the time you get insulation, power, DC, heat, cooling, H20, sewer, finish you're probably up to $100,000.

Hey, what does it really cost to build a shop? There must be a thread on that.

G'luck. Let me know when you give away the old tools to make way for the combo. I'll need some to fill up my new shop. ;)

-kg

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Felder MM Yah maybe but I know I could never have one. I have a Hammer JP and even that causes me some angst occasionally. Got the planer set to final plane and you just know I'll have a reason to want to joint an edge.
It's just the way it is.

One needs to be highly organized to use a combo.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

The answer is "maybe" you might have more space...but may be not. It depends upon the size and shape of your shop space as well as how much and where you have other stuff. For a typical 5 function combo with an 8 1/2' slider, you'll need about 19' for the full travel of the slider and will want at least 8' from the saw side of the machine for crosscutting. On the J/P side, you can have less clearance to the side.

You might also consider a J/P/M combo combined with a sliding table saw or a regular cabinet saw, if you prefer, to accomplish some space consolidation.

I was wondering about that, Jim. With your numbers, I don't gain much space, and loose the independant machines. The J/P/M combo might make more sense, as those functions are far less used in my opinion. That would enable a free wall at least where the tools used to park. My biggest problem is no assembly or staging area, which that may help. I'll get some literature coming tomorrow.

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Steve, heres my .02. It would be nice to know the dimensions of you current shop. If it is narrow, a combo will not work well, unless you move it round to use all the functions. I dont think a combo is a huge space saver. To use properly it needs alot of room around it. These things need just as much width as it does length. You also mentioned you had a shaper. I think this is the worst function of a combo. I would hate to break down a shaper set up just to make a cut, but I use shapers all the time, so maybe it will work for occasional use.

The only benefit I can see with the upgrade, is you will have a much better quality saw/J/P. The only space savings might would be to buy a J/P combo, and get rid of you current jointer and planer. Then if you wanted, buy a sliding saw and keep your current shaper. This would make a great setup that can be arranged against walls, instead of out in the middle like a combo needs.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

This is the easiest question ever. BUILD A NEW SHOP. Not that there's anything WRONG with combo machines, those who can adapt their workflow to the reality of switching functions use them quite successfully. They are beautifully designed/engineered/manufactured machines. But if building a new shop is really an equal alternative to buying a combo, the new shop wins. Of course it will take 3+ months (or years) to build a shop -vs- a weekend to give SMCers your old machines and move in a combo.

Individual machines are undoubtedly will give you much more versatility. Even if the combo has a mobility kit, it 6'x8' footprint will never be out-of-the-way in a small shop the way individual machines can be when you move them against the wall then it comes time to assemble those big pieces.

If I had an option to build a new shop, I would jump on it. A simple shell really doesn't have to cost THAT much more than a high-end combo machine. A 26'x36' garage in today's Menards ad goes for $6239. Of course by the time you get insulation, power, DC, heat, cooling, H20, sewer, finish you're probably up to $100,000.

Hey, what does it really cost to build a shop? There must be a thread on that.

G'luck. Let me know when you give away the old tools to make way for the combo. I'll need some to fill up my new shop. ;)

-kg

LOL, seems simple when you say it like that! Actually, the new shop was going to happen, up until December, when the ground froze solid, I got busy with a bunch of business stuff, and I wanted to make sawdust. I got impatient, and hung some lights in the garage, and am trying to use it. My previous shop was about 10' bigger in one dimension, which makes a huge difference.

I live on the farm, so to get a new building is pretty affordable, and relatively simple to do, except, I have to take out an old house to do it, and time is an issue. From the middle of April to the end of October, a day off is extreemly rare, so winter is the only time to get a big project like a shop done. It is an option, but not really an easy one. Of course, you have a point, the $12,000 for the MM is a nice payment on the shop...

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Cliff, is the changeover a big issue? Never been around one of these, and don't know what to realistically expect.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Hi Steve, heres my .02. It would be nice to know the dimensions of you current shop. If it is narrow, a combo will not work well, unless you move it round to use all the functions. I dont think a combo is a huge space saver. To use properly it needs alot of room around it. These things need just as much width as it does length. You also mentioned you had a shaper. I think this is the worst function of a combo. I would hate to break down a shaper set up just to make a cut, but I use shapers all the time, so maybe it will work for occasional use.

The only benefit I can see with the upgrade, is you will have a much better quality saw/J/P. The only space savings might would be to buy a J/P combo, and get rid of you current jointer and planer. Then if you wanted, buy a sliding saw and keep your current shaper. This would make a great setup that can be arranged against walls, instead of out in the middle like a combo needs.

Hmmm.... going to have to think on this for a while.. My shop is 22' by 24', but I'm moving from a 32' by 24', and I don't expect this one to be a long term shop, so I don't really want to resize everything.

[Jack Vines]

I used to have separate machines and now I've got a Robland X31:

1. The question about change-over is critical. Going back-and-forth from shaper to table saw is a no-no. If the user is organized, has a clear understanding of the work flow process and can work sequentially, then for a home shop, a combination machine is the clear riggin', as we say up in the NW.
2. Definitely takes half the floor space of five separate machines.
3. The sliding saw table is a definite plus
4. The Robland runs smoother and quieter than the equivalent cost home shop machines.
5. A minus for having to be a mechanical genius with a full complement of dial indicators and machinist's levels to assemble and tune it to full potential
6. A minus for not having a screw-driven blade height adjust. This makes fine-tuning dado depths difficult. They don't have it because blind cuts are prohibited by euro-OSHA regs.
7. A minus for large, cumbersome fences and guards.
8. A plus for a really effective splitter on the saw.

Your shop, your money, your choice; however, I'm staying with the Robland for now.

thnx, jack vines

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Cliff, is the changeover a big issue? Never been around one of these, and don't know what to realistically expect.

Steve,
Cliff is talking about messing up the thickness setting on the planer because one realizes that something needs to be jointed again. And, to switch from planer to jointer operation on a combo, the planer feed table must be lowered to flip the dust hood to jointing mode.

"Planing your workflow" is a difficult thing for me. I don't like the idea of having to think that hard with my hobby :). Besides, there's always unforseen issues. My preference is separates, but my screamin portable planer, complete with snipe and tearout from straight knives, makes me a thinkin' about a combo.

-Jeff :)

[Steven Wilson]

For a typical 5 function combo with an 8 1/2' slider, you'll need about 19' for the full travel of the slider and will want at least 8' from the saw side of the machine for crosscutting. On the J/P side, you can have less clearance to the side.


A 5 function combo with an 8 1/2' slider isn't really comparable to the 8" jointer, 15" planer, American tablesaw, Norm router table combo of a reasonably appointed "separates" shop. An 8 1/2' slider is big, either standalone or as a combo. A more appropriate comparison (capability) would be typical American separates vs. a combo with a 5' sliding table and no outrigger. In that case the combo takes much less space when the combo is not in use. Of course while working you need infeed and outfeed space as you do with separates and it's really a wash. I have a reasonably large combo (8 1/2' sliding TS/shaper, 14" j/p, mortiser) that operates in the same space as an 8" jointer and Amerian tablesaw with 50" rails. In a similarily configured space I have much more capability than with the separates. I would have never had the room for an 8 1/2" sliding tablesaw, shaper with sliding table, 14" jointer and 14" planer. The only negative is that the combo unit surface isn't as nice of an assembly table as my Powermatic 66 was.

As for method of work, the combo is a different animal and you do need to change your approach. I would not say that you spend more time making setup changes.

[Curt Harms]

Felder MM Yah maybe but I know I could never have one. I have a Hammer JP and even that causes me some angst occasionally. Got the planer set to final plane and you just know I'll have a reason to want to joint an edge.
It's just the way it is.

One needs to be highly organized to use a combo.

Uh Oh, highly organized does NOT describe me--just ask my wife.

The Delta Benchtop I sold had 2 means to duplicate planing thickness, my new Jet J/P has zero. I did email Barry Wixey--he doesn't sell any DRO's that go over 6" yet but that may change this year.;)

[Brad Shipton]

I have a saw/shaper and J/P stuffed into 400sqft until i can build the shop. Assembly in other areas. The change over time on the J/P is under 2min, but I agree with Cliff that it can be a nuisance when you forget to mill a couple extra pieces. Flip the table up, about 70 - 90 spins of the handle to raise the bed, move the dust collector, and off you go. I just started using my new slider and can say it is far different compared to a traditional table saw. The rip fence is used very rarely. You should try to find someone nearby to try out a euro machine. If you dont like the machines, then the solution is straightforward. By the way, $12k for a new machine will be a basic one without some of the goodies you will undoubtely want.

Brad