Have you noticed?

[lawrence rottersman]

I really did find a haven in this group, courteous, civil, and so wonderfully generous in its knowledge. So I never quite understood why, the past six months, the number of viewers seemed stuck in the twenties. Well, the numbers have been growing, and today it's in the fifties. Does this suggest a trend--perhaps one of the regulars, Harry, Mark, Derek, et al, should run for president...of the 18th century...they will certainly have my vote. Thanks guys.

[Richard Niemiec]

I think someone pointed out in another thread (in another forum, to boot) that the default counter of viewers was changed to reflect totals for the last 30 minutes, so the numbers are somewhat inflated and may not reflect real time. I'm no techie but if this is so, that would account for the increase.

[Jay Fields]

Not to knock SMC. Great camaraderie, moocho bandwidth, great launching pad for beginners in power or hand tools. But, did you ever notice how the number of viewers in SMC neander haven are double the numbers of woodnet's hand tools forum, yet woodnet has way more posts per day with more useful information per post. Of course, they are allowed to link to eBay auctions and other tool groups and forums, which creates a lot of discussions about the value of auctions and old hand tools in general.

[Ron Dunn]

I browse Woodnet occasionally (not a registered user), but I come here every day.

To me, the quality of posts here is as high as Woodnet. The recent "what's your job" threads showed that a lot of the members here have backgrounds similar to my own, and I think that is a main part of why I like the site. And the Woodnet software is almost as bad as Knots.

Actually, Sawmill Creek is causing me to question my attitudes about moderation. When I first joined here I laughed to myself about what I thought were heavy-handed rules. Now that I've seen the difference in forum behaviour, I think a few other places could benefit from a similar model.

[Lee Koepke]

Honestly, I never gave two seconds thought to "hand tools" before I wandered into this forum. I have read the other websites handtool forums, and didnt like what I saw.

Something about here made sense. Maybe it was some of the 'arguements' who knows, but I am all for it now. I took my first sharpening class, and a whole new world ( of spending ) is now open to me.

I will no longer pass up those rusty hand tools in antique stores or garage sales, I have a miniscule amount of knowledge, or at the very least access to ALOT of knowledge because of this forum ...

thanks to all.

[Richard Niemiec]

Ron: I still laugh but lately more often just shake my head about some of the "moderation" as it can often be fairly subjective, and sometimes stifling of what otherwise would be fair comment. But that topic is its own 'slippery slope' around here.

[Peter Tremblay]

Not to knock SMC. Great camaraderie, moocho bandwidth, great launching pad for beginners in power or hand tools. But, did you ever notice how the number of viewers in SMC neander haven are double the numbers of woodnet's hand tools forum, yet woodnet has way more posts per day with more useful information per post. Of course, they are allowed to link to eBay auctions and other tool groups and forums, which creates a lot of discussions about the value of auctions and old hand tools in general.

This is something that I have noticed. I don't know if it means much I think (as a regular over at woodnet hand tools) that there simply is a difference in the forum personality. Some like the openness some like the structure. I think the spirit of generosity and comradery is universal among all woodworkers.

Peter

[Richard Niemiec]

I think the spirit of generosity and comradery is universal among all woodworkers.

Peter

Ditto. RN

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Not to knock SMC. Great camaraderie, moocho bandwidth, great launching pad for beginners in power or hand tools. But, did you ever notice how the number of viewers in SMC neander haven are double the numbers of woodnet's hand tools forum, yet woodnet has way more posts per day with more useful information per post. Of course, they are allowed to link to eBay auctions and other tool groups and forums, which creates a lot of discussions about the value of auctions and old hand tools in general.

I'm a sort of new Knots transfer, and this place is more laid back I think. I've never understood the no linking issue though. Anyone care to explain that? I like the value discussions, and we don't have that here.

[Richard Niemiec]

I think the "no links to other forums" might have been an afterthought, or perhaps more accurately, an example of a good premise taken to an extreme, of whatever committee wrote the TOS, after establishing the ban to commercial links. I think the commercial ban was meant to prevent people from touting their ebay listings or their own commercial interests, which is fine, but I too never understood why links to other forums are prohibited, that's just silly. It's not like folks are going to surreptitiously paste in links to X rated porn sites. The ban on ebay listings also stifles the discussion of examples of tools, especially hand tools, and their pricing and value. Ebay is here to stay, and like it or not is the nation's garage sale, and fearing non-seller ebay links to it is sort of a victorian luddite view that denies reality and detracts from the intellectual discourse of the forum, which, after all, is the main point of any forum, no?

[Danny Thompson]

Shhh! You guys better quit discussing the moderation, which is not allowed under the TOS. Otherwise you may force a moderator to come moderate this civil and interesting discussion.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

More laid back than Knots Steve?? That could be the understatement of the year!!

I check out Knots too, and sometimes there is some useful info there that you don't find elsewhere. Hard to distill it from the argumentative banter on a forum with zero moderation at times. Seems like a lot of folks go there looking for a fight, while the folks here are more of the "lets work together to solve the worlds problems" types.

Just my opinion........I could be wrong.

[Glenn Clabo]

I think the commercial ban was meant to prevent people from touting their ebay listings or their own commercial interests, which is fine, but I too never understood why links to other forums are prohibited, that's just silly. It's not like folks are going to surreptitiously paste in links to X rated porn sites. The ban on ebay listings also stifles the discussion of examples of tools, especially hand tools, and their pricing and value. Ebay is here to stay, and like it or not is the nation's garage sale, and fearing non-seller ebay links to it is sort of a victorian luddite view that denies reality and detracts from the intellectual discourse of the forum, which, after all, is the main point of any forum, no?

Richard,
The actual decision was not made by a committee per say...it was a collective decision made by the group of people who started SMC with Keith asking for input.
It all comes down to workload and our want to make this an enjoyable place for all people to come to. If you think people wouldn't come here to link to ALL kinds of sites you are mistaken. You would not believe what people try to do and that fact requires us to check linked sites for content. Do you know there are instructions out there on how to utilize high traffic websites to your advantage? Now...just think if we didn't simple restrict some types of links and had to check hundreds a day. It's hard enough keeping the content quality as it is...trust me...I'm new at this mod buisiness...an old sailer...who is amazed at some of the comments that are tried in posts and in PM's.
I've always felt...SMC is simply a place that tries to be where you can discuss working with wood...with woodworkers. If you want a place to argue politics, religion, and all those other things that cause people to devide...there are more than enough places out there to do that.

[James Mittlefehldt]

I used to go to knots daily but that started tailing off when I became more familiar with it. There was a great deal of acrimonious banter there, and as someone said above it was like people came there looking for a fight. Personally I like this site and whatever limitations there may be regarding links and such is more than made up for by the knowledge that is sitting there waiting to answer any dum questions I may propose.

I can recall a number of times at Knots, one of the things that put me off there, was every time a beginner asked a simple question the usual suspects would answer with a not that again sort of answer and go search it and quit bothering us.

I have never seen that happen here, and that is why I put my money where my mouth is and became a contributor, just my opinion.

[John Dykes]

I've always felt...SMC is simply a place that tries to be where you can discuss working with wood...with woodworkers. If you want a place to argue politics, religion, and all those other things that cause people to devide...there are more than enough places out there to do that.

I'm sure I agreed to the Terms of Service at some point, but to be honest - I've not read them... (though I did look for them yesterday!).

Bluntly - this forum has become a haven for me. I'm sitting here behind my desk - literally in a blue suit, white shirt, and red tie - but, through the participants here, my mind is escaping to a cold garage, overalls, and walnut wood shavings on the floor; and wishing for simpler things...

I'm very interested in woodworking, but through a different path I chose many years ago, I doubt I'll ever be afforded the time to pursue it fully. I think it's even fair to say that it's a passion I've discovered later in a life where I've wasted far too many hours fretting over Fortune 500s, newspapers, CNN, politics, religion, and French factories closing. I'm only here to engage in my craft - limited as it may be.

Again, I'm a (w)rec convert... There is something about the protective immunity of Usenet that seems to breed a caustic environment even among woodworkers. As a matter of fact, there were a few posts on the Wrec earlier in the week complaining about the "firm hands" of the moderators here. As for me, I'm thankful, and supportive, of the "firm hand" of the moderators. Links to ebay would be helpful to me, but understand the burden it would place on those who are charged with keeping the peace.

Respectfully,
jbd

[Richard Niemiec]

Richard,...<snip>
I've always felt...SMC is simply a place that tries to be where you can discuss working with wood...with woodworkers. If you want a place to argue politics, religion, and all those other things that cause people to devide...there are more than enough places out there to do that.


Glen: You might be confusing my views in this thread with that of someone else who might be seeking a political or religious soapbox, as wood, tools, technique and information sharing was the exclusive focus of my prior comments (e.g., if my reference to "luddites" threw you off, rest assured they were not members of a religious sect). I also don't mean to be divisive in my comments, unless a thoughtful discussion of the TOS is implicitly divisive (I did recognize earlier that that topic was its own slippery slope... :) ).

But getting back to the question at hand, IIRC, the TOS "encourages" links germane to discussions in the forum, and the link to say, an ebay posting of an interesting, exceptional or rare tool that fosters discussion of its merits, or demerits, in all cases by someone who is not the seller, or for that matter a link to another WW forum where there is a particularly good discussion of a tool or technique that is supplemental to the subject matter of an SMC thread, is entirely consistent with the overall TOS statement - its just that the ban on links to other WW forums sticks out like the illogical sore thumb it appears to be, absent any rationale for the ban.

BTW, thanks for your service as a mod, as those roles are oftentimes thankless.

[Chuck Nickerson]

other forums is the desire to keep SMC content 'at hand'. For instance, if links were allowed to content in the forum that only saves posts for a year, then relevant supporting material for SMC discussions would vanish after a year. If I ever do anything worthy of posting and put the effort into posting it, the content will go here.

[Glenn Clabo]

Glen: You might be confusing my views in this thread with that of someone else who might be seeking a political or religious soapbox, as wood, tools, technique and information sharing was the exclusive focus of my prior comments (e.g., if my reference to "luddites" threw you off, rest assured they were not members of a religious sect). I also don't mean to be divisive in my comments, unless a thoughtful discussion of the TOS is implicitly divisive (I did recognize earlier that that topic was its own slippery slope... :) ).
BTW, thanks for your service as a mod, as those roles are oftentimes thankless.

Actually Richard...I got carried away on that one. Must have been the burrito I was eating for lunch.:o

And thanks for the thanks. Dave always says that this forum is pretty much on automod...and I kind of stepped into his house and vented a little. I'll go take some Tums so yawl can get back to your stuff.

[Curt Harms]

Everyone thinks that referring to Ebay postings is Verboten. AFAIK, referring to Ebay postings is allowed, posting active links is not. For instance, " hey y'll check out auction # xxxxx at Ebay" is okay. [ebay url] Ebay(dot)com is okay. Don't just copy and paste. I seem to remember Keith posting a reason for the ban on Ebay links beside self-promotion paid for by someone else; it had to do with bandwidth I think.

The point being, there are acceptable ways to refer to Ebay auctions. If this isn't correct, I'm sure someone will correct it.

HTH

Curt

[Dave Anderson NH]

You are correct Curt. Direct links to any auction sites and sale sites are prohibited. It has always had the potential of having folks become members here strictly to be able to drive traffic to their auctions (ie sneaky advertising). This would quickly clutter up the forum with a large volume of posts that the majority of members wouldn't find useful. Bandwidth could become an issue too, as would the fact that many sale sites like Craig's List have the sales disappear after they are over. We would end up with a lot of dead links.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

Exactly what I was thinking, Curt. I've seen people reference a flea bay item # instead of inserting a link on other forums. Very easy to copy the item number from one browser window, and paste it in the search field at the auction site, which will take you directly to the auction in question. For that matter, if a person had a "what is this?" or "look what I won!" type of post, I don't see what would prohibit them from inserting a picture in their post, instead of an auction link.

I've never needed to do this, but apparently it's an issue that bothers some. Maybe these suggestions will help if they fit within the rules.