dust collection: to dust or not to dust?

[Patrick Melchior]

the question I have is... at what point should you install some type of dust collection system? If you are just a weekend wood warrior or a full time saw dust machine. Will a respirator work if you only need a small filter?

THANK YOU

[Mike Spanbauer]

A respirator will suffice, if you wear it at all times and your shop isn't adjoining the house (contamination)

Without getting into this highly religious topic, realize that some people have severe reactions to wooddust after one exposure and some never have any issues even when working with the stuff for decades. Each person handles wooddust differently, and certain wooddust is worse than others (exotics, some can be carcinogenic for instance.)

Be safe and choose what you feel you need. If after a weekend of woodworking, you end up with a ton of wooddust snot, then you know you need better protection.

mike

[Jamie Buxton]

There's two reasons to use a dust collection system: reducing mess, and keeping dust out of your lungs. Generally the point where the mess gets too big is when you get a thickness planer. They generate chips in great quantity. Keeping dust out of your lungs can be done by wearing a respirator and having lots of ventilation through your shop. For instance, if you work in a garage with the vehicle door open, the real fine dust will not hang in the air waiting for your lungs to clean it out.

[Randal Stevenson]

If you are a weekend warrior, you may have a planer, but not a Drum sander. Some of it you can do outside (and I would still recommend the respirator), but for inside work (tablesaw, jointer), I would at least also recommend using your shop vac. They work better with some saws then others, but it will at least help.


Also you may want to check out Phil Thien's design as it could be a good, inexpensive, shop project/improvement.

[Bob Rufener]

If you have a basement shop, the telling time is when your wife gets hot enough because of all of the extra dust in the house and tells you to do something about it.

[Thomas Pender]

Although Bill Pentz is fanatical about dust control, he has a very complete web site addressing dust control issues and has his reasons for being so vocal. His site is worth viewing (BillPentz.com). People have some extreme reactions to him ;), but he does have point of view and has exhaustively studied dust collection.

I will admit to being convinced by him that fine dust control is key - especially for enclosed shops and most especially for basement shops. I want to be woodworking until they plant me and the best way to do that is to make sure I take care of my health.

Good luck.

[Jim Becker]

I consider dust collection important enough that it should be very high on the early purchase list...but I'm not fanatical about it, either. That said, there is much truth in the caution about wood dust and taking steps to control it and protect ourselves is a darn good idea, IMHO.

[Monroe Brown]

I tried the no DC shop for a while. First project that required substantial milling (pair of end tables) made me change my mind. There was just too much saw dust in the air after ripping and cross cutting. I had to stop for a few days just to let my eyes recover. And even with a mask I found my nasal passages to be very irritated, which is not something I'm usually sensitive about.

I went out and got a Delta AP400 after that project. A few months after that I purchased a Jet AFS-1000 air filter. The Jet air filter is fantastic--really keeps the air in my 32 x 20 shop well circulated. I can see (literally)a major difference in the air quality now that I have those two tools, but I still wear a mask anyway.

Overall I'd say that the air quaility in my shop has been a major factor in allowing me to really enjoy the time I spend woodworking.

Regards,

MB

[Paul Kinneberg]

As soon as you can afford it and like Jim said it should be high on the list. You will be glad you did.

[John Michaels]

Another trick I've found in the dust collection war is to take a leaf blower (you'll want to wear a mask) and blow the garage out. I aimed the blower at the walls and couldn't believe how much dust came off them.

[Denny Rice]

I consider dust collection important enough that it should be very high on the early purchase list...but I'm not fanatical about it, either. That said, there is much truth in the caution about wood dust and taking steps to control it and protect ourselves is a darn good idea, IMHO.


I have to agree with Jim as usual.....Once you find out you need some kind of dust control you have probably needed it a long time ago. Its the small stuff you cannot see that will kill you. I have a good dust collection system w/cyclone and one Jet Air Filtration device. Its amazing when I am done for the day, I can re-enter the shop 2 hrs later and still see fine particles if I do not use my dust collection system. I told my wife, this spring I am probably going to put another Jet AFD in the shop. Stay healthy its worth the investment.:)

[Bob Slater]

Got a great deal on two JDS er750 overhead dust filters. $300 for the pair. I still haven't added a DC yet though. I figure the overhead units will at least keep the air decent between major sweepings. In the spring I hope to clean everything out with water, coat the floor in epoxy and then get a DC.

[Jim Becker]

Bob, the air filtration units are certainly effective in helping keep your shop cleaner (and that's how I use mine), but they have minimal or no benefit for your health since the fines they are collecting has already been sucked into your lungs. They are not a substitute for dust collection at the source.

[glenn bradley]

In SoCal I can open the large and side doors most of the year. I still use a resp and have a small DC for chip collection as well as an ambient cleaner. This works well for me but I would want MUCH more if i were in a contained space.

[William Addison]

I live in a subtropical area that is in the trade wind zone and has a prevailing breeze of 15-20 MPH and I aligned my shop so that the wind blows through the overhead doors on each end. I often set a 42 inch fan up for an even better job. I've thought about a DC but the overhead doors would make it difficult. I don't have a dust problem but a DC would be nice to clean up the mess, however I can do a lot of sweeping for 2-3000 dollars.

[Henry Christian III]

I agree with Jim on getting it at the source. Go to BillPentz.com for the lowdown. I think I read on Bill Pentz's web site there is nothing better or maybe it was a minimum requirement that a large fan blowing out an open garage door while wearing a respirator would suffice. I was a convert after reading his information about small dust particles. I have to have a temp/humidity controlled shop. Most of the so called collectors with bags or filters do not do the job. I have been down the road and now operate a clearvue cyclone with 6 inch piping. The 6 inch pipe is the minimum for small particle collection.
:) Regards, 3

[Greg Peterson]

DC is one of the single most used 'tools' in a shop. Without DC you will soon find a THICK and unmanageable layer of dust covering everything in your shop.

Shavings tend to fall to the floor near the tool and are easily swept up and discarded. Dust on the other hand can take hours to settle and will go everywhere.

I know it isn't as sexy as a shinny new TS, but without some kind of DC system you will soon find yourself working in a very hazy workspace. And you will carry this dust into your home.

Woodworking is messy work. No way around it. Without DC, you will soon find yourself kicking up a dust storm every time you walk into the shop.

[Toney Robertson]

Bob, the air filtration units are certainly effective in helping keep your shop cleaner (and that's how I use mine), but they have minimal or no benefit for your health since the fines they are collecting has already been sucked into your lungs. They are not a substitute for dust collection at the source.

Is there any data that proves the effectiveness of a DC in making a woodworking environment healthy without the added use of a respirator?

I was just at a commercial molding shop Thursday and they were milling strips for laminated arched moldings. They had a band new ~36" belt sander with 2 or 3 dust ports, no visible dust in the air and the guy running it was still wearing a respirator.

So if you have a shop in an independent building and you need a respirator anyway, what is so important about a DC outside of overall cleanliness and convenience? Where is the health benefit?

I have worked in wood for 40 years and have never used a DC. When younger I was not educated about the hazards of dust and many times wore no dust protection. Now, I do wear protection and that protection IMO is the best since it stops any dust at the point it needs to be stopped - before it enters my lungs. I actually have two DCs that I just have not bothered to hook up.

I know that this for some reason is a hot button issue but I am just looking for hard evidence. My scientific education dictates that any opinion be back up with studies. Not studies about the hazards of dust, I acknowledge that fact, but studies proving that a DC can make a shop healthy enough to go sans respirator.

As a matter of fact if a normally priced DC system can maintain a healthy shop during all woodworking operations I would relish the idea since wearing a respirator is not my idea of fun. However, I suspect that IF (a BIG if that can only be proven with good studies) a DC system can maintain a healthy shop it would be absurdly expensive.

Toney

[Jim Becker]

I'm not going there Tony...it's been discussed at length so many times. While my scientific mind certainly appreciates formal studies, on this one, common sense also prevails. If you collect effectively at the point of production, you will greatly reduce the amount of fines in the air. Is it enough to be "safe" without a respirator? I don't know and I don't wear one outside of spraying water borne finishes or shellac...and sometimes at the lathe, although that's a full face shield with a little bit of filtering. (Trend)

[Jerry Booher]

27 years ago a tornado nearly totaled my house. I did most of the reconstruction and developed a severe asthmatic reaction to the wood dust from all of the sawing I was doing without a respirator or any DC.

I recently retired and decided to have a woodworking hobby. Since I do not want to ruin my lungs again, I bought an Oneida Super Gorilla. It may be overkill, but asthma is no fun.

[Greg Funk]

I was just at a commercial molding shop Thursday and they were milling strips for laminated arched moldings. They had a band new ~36" belt sander with 2 or 3 dust ports, no visible dust in the air and the guy running it was still wearing a respirator.

So if you have a shop in an independent building and you need a respirator anyway, what is so important about a DC outside of overall cleanliness and convenience? Where is the health benefit?

It depends on how much time you spend making dust. Most hobbyists do not spend anything close to 8 hours a day in the shop and when they are they are likely not running a belt sander continuously. DC requirements are unique to each individual and depend on the type of work they are doing and the length of time they spend doing it.

My nose is usually a pretty good guage of how much dust is in the air but I also ordered a Dylos air quality monitor to help me guage the effectiveness of my current DC system.

Greg

[Toney Robertson]

I'm not going there Tony...it's been discussed at length so many times. While my scientific mind certainly appreciates formal studies, on this one, common sense also prevails. If you collect effectively at the point of production, you will greatly reduce the amount of fines in the air. Is it enough to be "safe" without a respirator? I don't know and I don't wear one outside of spraying water borne finishes or shellac...and sometimes at the lathe, although that's a full face shield with a little bit of filtering. (Trend)

The threads I have found and read usually have broken down into irrelevant discussions based on out of control emotions. If I am going to bet my lung capacity on it I want hard factual evidence not emotional diatribe.

"If you collect effectively at the point of production, you will greatly reduce the amount of fines in the air. Is it enough to be "safe" without a respirator? I don't know"

And there is the rub. I assume that you are using your DC primarily for health reasons. If reducing the amount of "fines in the air" is not making it safe then that kind of defeats the entire purpose of the DC - doesn't it? The fines are the problem and there again without evidence I think that DC is a unrealized panacea.

I am sure that a system could be designed that would make any shop 100% safe and I am also sure that very few if any woodworkers could afford that system.

So the question still remains.

Can a reasonably priced and designed DC eliminate the need for a respirator to protect your health?

As I previously stated I would like nothing more than a yes answer to my question. I do not enjoy wearing a respirator.

Toney

[Toney Robertson]

It depends on how much time you spend making dust. Most hobbyists do not spend anything close to 8 hours a day in the shop and when they are they are likely not running a belt sander continuously. DC requirements are unique to each individual and depend on the type of work they are doing and the length of time they spend doing it.

My nose is usually a pretty good guage of how much dust is in the air but I also ordered a Dylos air quality monitor to help me guage the effectiveness of my current DC system.

Greg

Greg,

If a DC is effectively managing the fine dust it would not make any difference how long a person was in that environment he would suffer no ill effects.

I assume their is a safe minimum exposure for wood dust just like chemicals or radiation but personally I want my exposure as close to zero as possible because one never knows how your body is going to react to foreign substances.

I will be VERY interested in seeing the numbers that are reported by people that bought the air quality monitors. I hope that they show that healthy air is possible with a DC. If it does, one will be installed ASAP.

I think the more likely outcome will be that they do not control fine particles well enough for one not to be wearing a personal dust control device.

Toney

[Greg Funk]

Greg,

If a DC is effectively managing the fine dust it would not make any difference how long a person was in that environment he would suffer no ill effects.

I assume their is a safe minimum exposure for wood dust just like chemicals or radiation but personally I want my exposure as close to zero as possible because one never knows how your body is going to react to foreign substances.

I will be VERY interested in seeing the numbers that are reported by people that bought the air quality monitors. I hope that they show that healthy air is possible with a DC. If it does, one will be installed ASAP.

I think the more likely outcome will be that they do not control fine particles well enough for one not to be wearing a personal dust control device.

Toney
I would comment that 'healthy' air is not an absolute, objective criteria. If you are allergic to a particular type of wood dust your tolerance level will be vastly different than a non-allergic person. I can eat all the peanut butter sandwiches I wan't, unfortunately, my son could die eating one peanut.

If you are allergic to wood dust, I would agree it will be almost impossible to work in a shop safely without a respirator. On the other hand, I consider my shop 'safe enough' for my needs. If it gets too dusty I sometimes wear a mask but I don't have a respirator yet.


Greg

[Rick Moyer]

Greg,

If a DC is effectively managing the fine dust it would not make any difference how long a person was in that environment he would suffer no ill effects.

I assume their is a safe minimum exposure for wood dust just like chemicals or radiation but personally I want my exposure as close to zero as possible because one never knows how your body is going to react to foreign substances.

I will be VERY interested in seeing the numbers that are reported by people that bought the air quality monitors. I hope that they show that healthy air is possible with a DC. If it does, one will be installed ASAP.

I think the more likely outcome will be that they do not control fine particles well enough for one not to be wearing a personal dust control device.

Toney

I tend to agree with what you are saying. From everything I've read, to get the best protection, work outside on a windy day AND wear a respirator! Since almost none of us can do that, I have started wearing a respirator whenever I am making dust.
The problems are: collecting ALL the fine dust at the source(very difficult to do on most machines), and filtering to keep the dust collected. So, as I see it, you can spend a few thousand dollars and be much better off than doing nothing, but you're not going to make the shop air as clean as if you didn't generate any dust in the first place. Since I can't contain all the "dangerous" dust, I plan on getting a single stage collector (for the big stuff), hang an air cleaner ( for getting more of the residual floating-around dust) and continue to wear a respirator. Occasionally I'll put a big fan in the doorway and blow out the shop with a leafblower or something as well.
I'm also curious to see the collective results of those who purchased the unit to measure particulates in the air. Maybe that will sway me one way or the other.

[Steven Wilson]

the question I have is... at what point should you install some type of dust collection system?

Pat, you are always using a dust collection system - your lungs! If you don't want your lungs to collect the dust then you need something else.

[Ben Rafael]

A respirator is, IMO, not enough. Dust will get on your clothes and in your hair.
You will likely take this dust inside your home.

[Toney Robertson]

A respirator is, IMO, not enough. Dust will get on your clothes and in your hair.
You will likely take this dust inside your home.

And will a DC stop that?

Remember we are talking about the fine (can't see it) dust that is the problem.

I hope that the air quality meters will show that a good DC will make a shop healthy.

Toney

[Patrick Melchior]

Well guys, thanks for the reply...but I feel Steve Wilson said it best... "Pat, you are always using a dust collection system - your lungs! If you don't want your lungs to collect the dust then you need something else"

[Ben Rafael]

All dust is a problem.
The fine dust is just the hardest to capture.

[Toney Robertson]

All dust is a problem.
The fine dust is just the hardest to capture.


If you are talking health concerns then what I have read tells me that the problem is the fine dust. It is what embeds deep into your lungs.

If you are talking about making your wife mad then all dust is a problem. :eek:

Toney

[Peter M. Spirito]

Here are some photos of the Jet Air Filtration unit I just installed on the recomendation of my brother. The air filtration means is impressive. The outer filter is pleated felt. The inner filter is 3 rows of cloth tubes. Notice that the inside of the tubes are white and the outside are blue. There are 2 layers of material. :)

[jim oakes]

Is there any data that proves the effectiveness of a DC in making a woodworking environment healthy without the added use of a respirator?

I was just at a commercial molding shop Thursday and they were milling strips for laminated arched moldings. They had a band new ~36" belt sander with 2 or 3 dust ports, no visible dust in the air and the guy running it was still wearing a respirator.

So if you have a shop in an independent building and you need a respirator anyway, what is so important about a DC outside of overall cleanliness and convenience? Where is the health benefit?

I have worked in wood for 40 years and have never used a DC. When younger I was not educated about the hazards of dust and many times wore no dust protection. Now, I do wear protection and that protection IMO is the best since it stops any dust at the point it needs to be stopped - before it enters my lungs. I actually have two DCs that I just have not bothered to hook up.

I know that this for some reason is a hot button issue but I am just looking for hard evidence. My scientific education dictates that any opinion be back up with studies. Not studies about the hazards of dust, I acknowledge that fact, but studies proving that a DC can make a shop healthy enough to go sans respirator.

As a matter of fact if a normally priced DC system can maintain a healthy shop during all woodworking operations I would relish the idea since wearing a respirator is not my idea of fun. However, I suspect that IF (a BIG if that can only be proven with good studies) a DC system can maintain a healthy shop it would be absurdly expensive.

Toney

I tend to agree with Toney. I have been a woodworker for 50 years(got my first table saw at 8 years old).
When I started working in commercial shops around 1970 no one had DC. I guess we all just thought dust was part of the job. Now good DC is fairly cheap and in all the catalogs.
I tried DC on some of my machines in my own cabinet shop. I had a big stroke sander with the best DC I could afford on it. It got most of the dust off the stroke sander but it was still real dusty in the air. I tried all I could to refine the DC and collect as much as I could.

It got so I had to make a choice : work with wood or perfection of the dust collection. Even if I could get 100% of the dust from the machines, the portable sanders, routers and drills would send it flying! Your nose is ALWAYS going to be between some dust and your lungs. The time it takes to catch the dust(moving guards, adjusting hoses and shrouds) takes away from woodworking time.

In a woodshop because we are working in the same place it seems like it is possible to make it "dust free". I think the people who work in dusty construction jobs might laugh and think we are a little obsessive.

Now I'm retired and work wood for fun. There is a ton of DC stuff that seems to make sense (all of it sucks I'm sure) ,but I still don't want to take the time to move guards ,hoses and shrouds!

Given what I've learned over the years about wood in the dustworking shop (I mean dust in the woodworking shop) I now use a mask for real dusty work. The dustbeegone is the most tolerable for me.

[jim oakes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toney Robertson http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=770447#post770447)
Is there any data that proves the effectiveness of a DC in making a woodworking environment healthy without the added use of a respirator?

I was just at a commercial molding shop Thursday and they were milling strips for laminated arched moldings. They had a band new ~36" belt sander with 2 or 3 dust ports, no visible dust in the air and the guy running it was still wearing a respirator.

So if you have a shop in an independent building and you need a respirator anyway, what is so important about a DC outside of overall cleanliness and convenience? Where is the health benefit?

I have worked in wood for 40 years and have never used a DC. When younger I was not educated about the hazards of dust and many times wore no dust protection. Now, I do wear protection and that protection IMO is the best since it stops any dust at the point it needs to be stopped - before it enters my lungs. I actually have two DCs that I just have not bothered to hook up.

I know that this for some reason is a hot button issue but I am just looking for hard evidence. My scientific education dictates that any opinion be back up with studies. Not studies about the hazards of dust, I acknowledge that fact, but studies proving that a DC can make a shop healthy enough to go sans respirator.

As a matter of fact if a normally priced DC system can maintain a healthy shop during all woodworking operations I would relish the idea since wearing a respirator is not my idea of fun. However, I suspect that IF (a BIG if that can only be proven with good studies) a DC system can maintain a healthy shop it would be absurdly expensive.

Toney

I tend to agree with Toney. I have been a woodworker for 50 years(got my first table saw at 8 years old).
When I started working in commercial shops around 1970 no one had DC. I guess we all just thought dust was part of the job. Now good DC is fairly cheap and in all the catalogs.
I tried DC on some of my machines in my own cabinet shop. I had a big stroke sander with the best DC I could afford on it. It got most of the dust off the stroke sander but it was still real dusty in the air. I tried all I could to refine the DC and collect as much as I could.

It got so I had to make a choice : work with wood or perfection of the dust collection. Even if I could get 100% of the dust from the machines, the portable sanders, routers and drills would send it flying! Your nose is ALWAYS going to be between some dust and your lungs. The time it takes to catch the dust(moving guards, adjusting hoses and shrouds) takes away from woodworking time.

In a woodshop because we are working in the same place it seems like it is possible to make it "dust free". I think the people who work in dusty construction jobs might laugh and think we are a little obsessive.

Now I'm retired and work wood for fun. There is a ton of DC stuff that seems to make sense (all of it sucks I'm sure) ,but I still don't want to take the time to move guards ,hoses and shrouds!

Given what I've learned over the years about wood in the dustworking shop (I mean dust in the woodworking shop) I now use a mask for real dusty work. The dustbeegone is the most tolerable for me.