Kitchen Cabinet experts, share your wisdom

[Chris Yarish]

I have seen many members asking questions about a kitchen reno/rebuild, and often experienced cabinetmakers say that if you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be doing the job.
I am most definately one of the guys who "shouldn't be doing the job"....not for lack of desire, or lack of creativity, or lack of understanding of what a monumental task it can be, but for lack of previous cabinet making experience.

I have purchased a book on cabinetmaking, have scoured the 'net looking for tips and tricks, but I think it would be great to have a thread dedicated to the art of kitchen cabinetry, and any advice that can be passed on to the rookies.

What are some common problems that seem to arise frequently, what are some helpful jigs or templates that can make the job go smoother, what are some unique tricks of the trade that one won't find in a cabinet making book.

Thanks in advance....

[keith ouellette]

I am an inexperienced cabinet maker. It is something I always wanted to do so I made some upper and lower maple face frame cabinets for our laundry room recently (The pics are up here at the creek). They came out really well for my fisrt set.

I designed and made my own cut list which took much longer because it added some mistakes that had to be redone.

Make a two base cabinets alone to get a feel for it. I did two base cabinets first and the uppers came out better and faster because of the practice.

I don't know how good your finishing powers are but that is the thing that made things extra hard on me. You need to know exactly how to apply your finish to your specific project. It is the easy way to ruin a lot of work. I had to sand my two lower cabinets down and refinish them The story is on the finish forum.

If you have to ask it is all the more reason to do and discover. A mistake will teach you a lot more than someone telling you how. Its just more painful.

[Glenn Clabo]

One comment...

Kreg Jig. http://www.kregtool.com/products/pht/index.php

There are others like it...even a homemade design by Steve Clardy here at SMC http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=393 ...so look into it.

Although I did once make a living as cabinetmaker..it was in the dark ages. Now I mostly just do it to remodel this old Cape. I have had the Kreg Jig though the last few jobs...and man did it save some heartache.

There are a few tricks of the trade that more practiced people will jump in on. So ask more specific questions as you go...and stand by.

[Chris Yarish]

Yeah, I am hoping that more specific questions can be asked as the thread develops....

I have one...

If I am making frameless upper cabinets on a run of about 7', should I make every cabinet pair individually (a separate carcass for each pair of cabinets) or can I make one long one?

[Steve Milito]

Get a software program that lays out the cut-out diagram for cutting the panels. You'll save the cost of the program upon first use. It will also calculated the number of panels and amount of wood you need. It can do it faster and better than you can do it by hand. I use Cutlist plus. There are others.

[Dave Burris]

In my opinion I think one thing to consider on the design of all you uppers is how will they be set? More to the point will you have help getting them attached to the wall or are you flying solo. A single box will be easier to handle if your working alone. If you have help it might save time in setting the box if you can make the box longer. I have done both and if set correctly you can't tell a difference after the job is done. Just make it easy on yourself

Dave Burris

[Roger Ronas]

I'll try to answer that one Chris,

Depending on several things as to why do it one way or the other.

First when you make one long cab. You have to consider liftig to install. Use half overlay or inset hinges. Uses less material. Harder if it includes different height cabs in the same run.
If using separate boxes, easier to install, uses more material, easier to do different height and castleing can be an option.
One other note, Think about and draw out frontal views to see if uppers and lowers match. Nothing worse than building everything, installing it and then seeing that you have a 18" door upper and a 15" door on the lower. Things should line up vertically.

HTH
Roger

[Jim Becker]

Building is easy. Getting the design right is critical for the functionality of the kitchen. One tip...make the upper cabinets a little deeper for better storage flexibility. If I were doing it again, mine would have been 15" deep.

[Chris Yarish]

One other note, Think about and draw out frontal views to see if uppers and lowers match. Nothing worse than building everything, installing it and then seeing that you have a 18" door upper and a 15" door on the lower. Things should line up vertically.

HTH
Roger

Brilliant....that is one of those things I considered when I did my first set of drawings, but have since overlooked.

[Chris Yarish]

Building is easy. Getting the design right is critical for the functionality of the kitchen. One tip...make the upper cabinets a little deeper for better storage flexibility. If I were doing it again, mine would have been 15" deep.

Thanks Jim...how about cabinet height above countertop? I have seen 18" as a "standard"...is that pretty much the case?

I have also read in an American book of standards, that overall heights of cabinets in bathrooms and kitchens have been on the rise over the past few decades due to an increase in the average heights of average kitchen users.

Comments on that?

[Chris Yarish]

In my opinion I think one thing to consider on the design of all you uppers is how will they be set? More to the point will you have help getting them attached to the wall or are you flying solo. A single box will be easier to handle if your working alone. If you have help it might save time in setting the box if you can make the box longer. I have done both and if set correctly you can't tell a difference after the job is done. Just make it easy on yourself

Dave Burris

I have seen cabinets screwed directly to the wall studs and I have seen the use of Z-clips ( http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=1&p=41869&cat=3,41306,41308 )

Pros or cons on the uses of either?

[George Bregar]

I am most definately one of the guys who "shouldn't be doing the job"....not for lack of desire, or lack of creativity, or lack of understanding of what a monumental task it can be, but for lack of previous cabinet making experience. If I didn't do anything in woodworking because I lacked experience...well I would just sell my tools. What is so hard about cabinets? They're simple boxes, made using screws, with simple face frames, affixed with biscuits. Pretty sure there isn't much to know that can't be read in a book. And not to offend cabinet makers, the key to a good professional cabinet maker is being able to produce quality work...fast.

[Dave Burris]

I personally use nailers in the top and bottom of the box. Being of limited income like I am I find it easier to use a little hardwood in place of the wall mounting strips. But this is just me. I was taught the ole' face frame design and it has hung with me ever since. I have set a couple of jobs with frameless and the strips make it easier for a one person job.

I think it all comes down to personal choice. I don't think there is a wrong way here, just a preferred way.

[jason lambert]

I think you are being to hard on yourself if you have the desire and are doing research you should do fine. Most people that try fail because they don't do the research or don't have the right tools and try to nail everyting together.

On that note one of the best things I have done was go out and look at some Nice kitchens. I recomend looking at Brookhaven or some other good brand and see how the draws and cabinets are put together. Pay specific attention to the hardware, how it mounts and the style.

On that note Kreg jigs are great, you will need one or something similar, I also recomend a HVLP gun for the finish and use an approved kitchen finish that is resistant to chemicals.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Larry Fox]

Having done a kitchen myself (link to thread below) I can tell you for sure that it is a completely doable job and, as Jim says, the building is the easy part. The one thing that you need to be ready for and have realstic expectations about is the sheer amount of time that it takes for a person doing wwing on a hobby basis to complete. Anything involving repeatability and scale, both of which you have with a kitchen, really introduce a lot of time drag.

Couple of points that were gotchas for me that I can share are;

1) Really think about your cutting / milling / machining workflow to reduce setup time. For example, mill and cut ALL your faceframe stock at the same time so you don't need to pay the setup cost multiple times. Same with router table setup for rails / stiles and panels. While it might not sound like a lot of time but it really adds up depending on how many times you have to do the changeover.
2) Build your boxes out of pre-finished ply. This I did do and I can't begin to imagine how much time and hassle it saved me.
3) Make sure you have a lot of room to store the boxes etc after you have them built. I stored mine in my living / dining room and those rooms were unusable for the project. It is surprisng how much room they take up.
4) The finishing process takes a lot of time and I don't see a way around that. It also take a lot of room so build yourself some drying racks.
5) Buy your drawers. I didn't do this and wish I had. Unless you are doing hand-cut dovetails, after you do one or two drawers there is really nothing interesting (IMHO) about doing drawers and they take a long time. The cost / benefit equation favors buying the boxes.
6) Whatever you think you are going to need in terms of "consumables" (sandpaper, glue, screws, etc) - double it.
7) As another poster advised - pocket hole screws. Nuff said there.
8) Don't do the tearout of your existing kitchen until you can absolutely go no further without doing it. The time between when you tear out your exsiting one and the new one going in is an absolutely miserable period. Don't believe it? Go home tonight and tell your sig-o that for the next two weeks you both have to do your dishes in the bathtub and the food from the drawers and pantry will be in random boxes scattered throughout the house. It won't be in one place because, remember, the new cabinets you built are where you would like to put that stuff.

All this being said, I am very glad I did mine as it is an extremely rewarding project and in th end you save yourself so much $$ and you have a custom job. I am contemplating doing another one for my parents house and I can say for sure that the second will go faster than the first due to things that I learned. In terms of books, I recommend the one by Udo Schmidt. He does focus on face-frame cabinets though so if you want to go frameless another book might be appropriate.

I would say go for it but just be realistc about the amount of time it will take.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50336

[Chris Yarish]

Well, after receiving quotes from places ranging from Ikea to Home Depot to Poggenphol, I can screw this job up A LOT before I incur the costs of having them done elsewhere.
What I lack in previous skill I can make up in other areas. I am very confident that this will look good and be done right. I just want to have a resource for myself and others like me who would rather hear what to do to avoid "x" or "y" rather than to do x or y. Screwing up is often unavoidable, unless someone can forewarn you.

Ikea (and I NEVER would have done Ikea) was going to be between $8000 and $10 000. Poggenpohl on the other hand was going to be $60 000 minimum.

[Chris Yarish]

Having done a kitchen myself (link to thread below) I can tell you for sure that it is a completely doable job and, as Jim says, the building is the easy part. The one thing that you need to be ready for and have realstic expectations about is the sheer amount of time that it takes for a person doing wwing on a hobby basis to complete. Anything involving repeatability and scale, both of which you have with a kitchen, really introduce a lot of time drag.

Couple of points that were gotchas for me that I can share are;

1) Really think about your cutting / milling / machining workflow to reduce setup time. For example, mill and cut ALL your faceframe stock at the same time so you don't need to pay the setup cost multiple times. Same with router table setup for rails / stiles and panels. While it might not sound like a lot of time but it really adds up depending on how many times you have to do the changeover.
2) Build your boxes out of pre-finished ply. This I did do and I can't begin to imagine how much time and hassle it saved me.
3) Make sure you have a lot of room to store the boxes etc after you have them built. I stored mine in my living / dining room and those rooms were unusable for the project. It is surprisng how much room they take up.
4) The finishing process takes a lot of time and I don't see a way around that. It also take a lot of room so build yourself some drying racks.
5) Buy your drawers. I didn't do this and wish I had. Unless you are doing hand-cut dovetails, after you do one or two drawers there is really nothing interesting (IMHO) about doing drawers and they take a long time. The cost / benefit equation favors buying the boxes.
6) Whatever you think you are going to need in terms of "consumables" (sandpaper, glue, screws, etc) - double it.
7) As another poster advised - pocket hole screws. Nuff said there.
8) Don't do the tearout of your existing kitchen until you can absolutely go no further without doing it. The time between when you tear out your exsiting one and the new one going in is an absolutely miserable period. Don't believe it? Go home tonight and tell your sig-o that for the next two weeks you both have to do your dishes in the bathtub and the food from the drawers and pantry will be in random boxes scattered throughout the house. It won't be in one place because, remember, the new cabinets you built are where you would like to put that stuff.

All this being said, I am very glad I did mine as it is an extremely rewarding project and in th end you save yourself so much $$ and you have a custom job. I am contemplating doing another one for my parents house and I can say for sure that the second will go faster than the first due to things that I learned. In terms of books, I recommend the one by Udo Schmidt. He does focus on face-frame cabinets though so if you want to go frameless another book might be appropriate.

I would say go for it but just be realistc about the amount of time it will take.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50336

I am a teacher so I will have time at Spring Break to gte some initial work started, then I will go full tilt throughout the summer.
My girlfriend and I live separately so no need to remodel the doghouse yet. Storage should be simple....single dude with a fairly big house....I offer to store other people's stuff because I'd like to give some of my rooms a purpose. No sweat there....I will also look into purchasing drawers. They were the one thing I did not look forward to taking on.

Your kitchen looks great....was it necessary to strip the kitchen to complete nakedness, or was that just a choice?

[Bob Antoniewicz]

Get a software program that lays out the cut-out diagram for cutting the panels. You'll save the cost of the program upon first use. It will also calculated the number of panels and amount of wood you need. It can do it faster and better than you can do it by hand. I use Cutlist plus. There are others.

Steve, do you have a recommendation?

Bob A.

[Chris Yarish]

Steve, do you have a recommendation?

Bob A.

I think he said that he uses Cutlist plus.

[Bob Antoniewicz]

Having done a kitchen myself (link to thread below) I can tell you for sure that it is a completely doable job and, as Jim says, the building is the easy part. The one thing that you need to be ready for and have realstic expectations about is the sheer amount of time that it takes for a person doing wwing on a hobby basis to complete.
...
All this being said, I am very glad I did mine as it is an extremely rewarding project and in th end you save yourself so much $$ and you have a custom job. I am contemplating doing another one for my parents house and I can say for sure that the second will go faster than the first due to things that I learned. In terms of books, I recommend the one by Udo Schmidt. He does focus on face-frame cabinets though so if you want to go frameless another book might be appropriate.

I would say go for it but just be realistc about the amount of time it will take.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50336

Dude, your kitchen rocks! ...uh, er... woods .... no no thats not it... uh ...

Oh, yeah!

Your kitchen COOKS!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bob Antoniewicz]

I think he said that he uses Cutlist plus.

Yes, of course. Attention deficit..

Thanks for pointing it out.

[Jim Marshall]

A lot of folks visit forums to learn how to do things and I am sure SMC is one of them. While you will get many different answers to one question, they mostly are great answers, as different folks have their own way to do things. I think this thread will be a great learning tool for some and a way for others to share their experiences with each other. I, for one, will be happy to help in any way I can. I sure don't know it all and even after a 37 year career, I am still learning. These young fellows are coming up with newer and sometimes better ways of doing some things, so I keep my eyes peeled and my mind open, we never know what we may learn.

The way I have done things over the years may not be the right way but I made a good living doing them.

[Greg Caputo]

Chris:

The current run of new episodes of New Yankee Workshop is all about building kitchen cabinets. I think it'll be nine episodes in total and they've already aired the first 5. I always find Norm's work easy to follow and helpful and this is no different. The first couple of episodes deal specifically with wood selection and carcass construction. Watch for them if your public TV station reruns NYW.

Couple other thoughts based on my experience of building upper and lower cabinets under the supervision of the general contractor who did our remodel:

--as mentioned already, a pocket hole jig makes the work strong and square.
--good quality sheet goods. My experience is that the material at the borg is normally not up to the job. Norm recommends pre-finished plywood.
--buiscuts are a big help to align the face frames.
--a computer program to help you figure out how much you need and how to break down the sheet goods. My experience with a program called Cutlist Plus is good and I use it for nearly every project requiring sheet goods. You can get this program on the internet. There are probably other programs, but this is the only one I've used.
--a good two-piece rail and stile router bit set for the doors. And a panel raising bit if you plan that look. There are a lot of brands from which to choose and the prices vary.
--make sure to leave enough room to scribe the edges of the cabinets which will go against a wall.
--i recessed the backs of my cabinets a little over 3/4" in order to use hidden french cleats to hang the uppers. Installation was neat, easy, and the attachment to the wall is strong. Once up, I drove screws through the back and into the cleat attached to the wall. Maybe it was overkill, but I used 3/4" plywood for the backs of the uppers for maximum strength and support.
--a jig to layout and make shelf holes is incredibly helpful. You can buy one or make your own.
--a jig to layout for the door hinges is helpful. This will obviously depend on what kind of hinge you plan to use and it's really easy to make your own.
--try to buy all the hardware before construction to make sure everthing will fit.
--current kitchen design seems to call for a lot drawers or pull-out shelves on lower cabinets. Seems like a good idea because it does away with the need to bend over or get down on your knees to find something in the back.

Have fun.

Greg

[Jim Becker]

Ikea (and I NEVER would have done Ikea) was going to be between $8000 and $10 000. Poggenpohl on the other hand was going to be $60 000 minimum.

Chris, believe it or not, the Ikea Akurum kitchen cabinets are very, very high quality and if you were in a DYI install, but not build situation, they are a very good choice. Several SMC members have used them for kitchen projects. The hinges are Blum Inserta and the hanging system is sturdy, adjustable and works. I used one in our current MB for extra storage and was quite impressed with the quality and construction. But yes, they are not inexpensive...

Generally with Ikea, when you to to their top of the line stuff, it's worthy of consideration for the right situations.

[Darren Salyer]

Don't forget to leave a dead inch or two at inside corners so drawers will still open after handles are added without hitting the ones at right angles to them. Think ahead for dishwasher, oven and refrigerator handles that protrude past the plane of the cabinet faces. As a remodeler, I've seen this quite a few times. Just my .02.. Darren

[Larry Fox]

I am a teacher so I will have time at Spring Break to gte some initial work started, then I will go full tilt throughout the summer.

Nice, in that case you should be set on time. For me I needed to balance it with a job and family so it got rough at times.


My girlfriend and I live separately so no need to remodel the doghouse yet. Storage should be simple....single dude with a fairly big house....I offer to store other people's stuff because I'd like to give some of my rooms a purpose. No sweat there....

This is a very good thing, I really didn't account well for this when I built and it got to be a huge pain working around them.


I will also look into purchasing drawers. They were the one thing I did not look forward to taking on.

In my opinion, they are completely commoditized things and if you buy them it really saves you a lot of time and hassle. If memory serves, I beleive it took me about a month to take 17 drawers from rough stock to finished product and in the end they are just maple boxes without a top. These places where you buy them are setup to do it and can roll through them in no-time.



Your kitchen looks great....was it necessary to strip the kitchen to complete nakedness, or was that just a choice?

Thanks for the kind words. Not strictly necessary I suppose but doing so made some things very easy. I wanted to put some more lighting in and run wire for things like ethernet and TV cable for use in the future. I also installed low-voltage under-cabinet lighting and having it down to the studs made that easier. Another thing I could do at that point is to install the blocking between the studs at the same height as the mounting screws. That way, I could pre-drill the cabinets for monting and not have to fish around for a stud while someone was holding up the cabinet - you knew that whereever you drove a screw there was some meat back there to hold - made installation VERY easy. Not only that but the drywall in the other kitchen was crap anyway.

[Chris Yarish]

Chris, believe it or not, the Ikea Akurum kitchen cabinets are very, very high quality and if you were in a DYI install, but not build situation, they are a very good choice. Several SMC members have used them for kitchen projects. The hinges are Blum Inserta and the hanging system is sturdy, adjustable and works. I used one in our current MB for extra storage and was quite impressed with the quality and construction. But yes, they are not inexpensive...

Generally with Ikea, when you to to their top of the line stuff, it's worthy of consideration for the right situations.

I have heard that the IKEA Akrum are a great buy....they use real wood (which is rare for Ikea) and Blum hingeware (which seem like an industry standard) but from what I have heard, the long term durability if the product just isn't there. I often recommend them to friends who can't DIY (or, DIT I guess....) because the alternatives are significantly more money. For someone looking to update their kitchen without having to remortgage, it's a fine alternative.
I hope that I can build a superior, custom made kitchen for a fraction of the cost...and knowing how confusing and time consuming Ikea's out-of-the-box assemblies can be, hopefully, I can do it in about the same amount of time :)

But yes, Ikea was the brand I was going to purchase when I was considering selling my house. I wanted a quick update with minimal costs and minimal energy output. They are good in many respects....just not for me and not for me in a house I'll be staying in.

[Chris Yarish]

Don't forget to leave a dead inch or two at inside corners so drawers will still open after handles are added without hitting the ones at right angles to them. Think ahead for dishwasher, oven and refrigerator handles that protrude past the plane of the cabinet faces. As a remodeler, I've seen this quite a few times. Just my .02.. Darren


This is funny....I refaced some cabinets in my old condo and being as retentive as I am, I wanted all of my door pulls (which were the long stainless steel bar-type) to be oriented in the same dirction....from the drawers to the doors. There was one corner where this was not possible and it was a pain to try to get into. I had to modify the handle in order to maintain the integrity of the balance I was trying to achieve. Would have been easier to have placed the handles vertically rather than horizontally....no one else would have cared, or noticed for that matter, but myself. I ended up having to repair the wall where the pull bounced off each time prior to the modification.
*sigh*

[Peter Quinn]

Jim Tolpins book Becoming a pro cabinet maker has good ideas for orgainzing work flow and production though a lot of the book is about starting a small business, still worth a browse.

If your goal is to do it all yourself, obviously you make everything. As others have said, you can do it and you will learn a lot. If the goal is to get a beautiful kitchen quick, you hire pros and watch it happen. In between there are a lot of options to consider. Depending on your goals, abilities and work space there are resonable options to outsource almost every aspect of production. You can get drawers made, doors made (conestoga) and prefinished with extra matching finish to do face frames, you can get frames made and finished too! You can often find a local finisher to spray the boxes you have made sparing you the headache and your family the toxins.

For framless or face frame Halls edge (hallsedge.com?) will CNC machine sheet goods for not much more than I can buy the plywood, comes on a palate like a kit, ready to build when you are. You can hire a certified pro planner to do the drawings and/or design work for or with you.

Try to design and build one entire box, even a miniature scale model to save materials, from begining to end, design to finish, make the carcasses, drawers, toe kick, door, end panel and finish it. This small commitment in resources will help you evaluate your skills and ilucidate which aspects of the whole job you want to tackle. It will also help overcome any fear/inertia you may have and serve as a training model from which to base your larger design.

Each thing you out source saves you time but costs you money. Most outsources offer very competitive pricing because they specilize in one thing and do it very efficiently. Don't feel bad outsourcing, small to medium pro shops do it all the time. Remember, the task is not insurmountable and you are not alone in it. Any outsourcing requires good and thourough design on your part, as outsourcers will make exactly what you order, and mistakes in sizes/layout on your part cannot be returned thus costing you twice.

[Jerry Kim]

Chris, believe it or not, the Ikea Akurum kitchen cabinets are very, very high quality and if you were in a DYI install, but not build situation, they are a very good choice. Several SMC members have used them for kitchen projects. The hinges are Blum Inserta and the hanging system is sturdy, adjustable and works. I used one in our current MB for extra storage and was quite impressed with the quality and construction. But yes, they are not inexpensive...

Generally with Ikea, when you to to their top of the line stuff, it's worthy of consideration for the right situations.

What do you think of their self-closing slides?

[Dave Burris]

I checked out the web site for the Cutlist Plus program and it really looks solid to me. I have looking around for something cut down on the planning time and I like the way this program works. The material optimization will really help me out. Guess I better sweet talk the boss (my wife) and get an advance on my allowance...

Thanks for mentioning this!

[Bryan Froden]

We mainly build bars built-ins and entertainment centers and we always use dado joinery in the construction of the cabinets. Once your used to the procedure it’s a piece of cake.
XXXXXXXX

[Joe Chritz]

Drawer pin jig
Hinge jig
seperate toe kicks
slightly deeper uppers (12.5" if possible)
longest cabinets you can lift easily.
1/2" backs
prefinish everything or use melamine or pre finished ply
Zip'r screws and finished ends, either 1/4 skins or panels.
cutlist and cabinet doors,kitchen draw. Ecabs if you are computer savy.
1/2 BB for drawer sides. looks good and saves labor.
Take all the doors to a widebelt
Get a spray set up, I still prefer waterlox but that is a lot of wiping.

Those are the major helps I have learned in the last kitchen or three. I prefer face frame cabs since I am not set up to edge band quickly and I think they look nicer. For FF a kreg jig of some kind is your friend.

It takes a few to get in a good rythym and find what works.

You could order out doors/drawers. It takes me two days +/- for a decent kitchen of doors and 3/4 day for drawers using 1/2 blind dovetails.

Joe

[Alex Berkovsky]

cutlist and cabinet doors,kitchen draw. Ecabs if you are computer savy.Joe,
I am just curious if this is the free software you're refering to:
http://www.ecabinetsystems.com/ecab_new/pages/ecab_2005/ecab_software.htm

[edit]I see... in order ot get it, you must be in the cabinet making business.

[Chris Yarish]

Hinge jig

I saw a homemade jig that was made from poplar and 1/4" hardboard/mdf. Very simply, it's a DIY jig that just marked out the location of the holes for the hinge....
I have seen the Veritas one at Lee Valley and it looks nice, but does it do $130 worth of work for me?
I was comtemplating buying it, but I can make a jig in a few minutes that will do essentially the same thing.


1/2" backs


I am planning on doing 3/4" carcasses....was going to use the same for the backs. Is this overkill or just an overcost with littel benefit? 3/4 will obviously make the cabinets more rigid, but with an extra bit of weight. Will 1/2" suffice?


Zip'r screws and finished ends, either 1/4 skins or panels.


I looked these up Hafele has them on their website....what is it about these screw that makes them preferrable over another type of screw? I have never seen nor heard of them.
I have also heard reference to "finished ends" and "skins" before. not sure what these two things refer to....



Thanks Joe...

[Dave Falkenstein]

I have made a bunch of cabinetry, and have installed a bunch more from kits. I'm not a kitchen cabinet expert, as most of the work I have done is storage systems - closet, garage, utility room. I think my experience is transferrable to kitchen cabinetry, and I am not without some kitchen experience.

A couple of thoughts. First, I'd make individual cabinets rather than a single long run for the reasons previously staed plus one other - most walls are not flat. If you install one long cabinet on a wall that is not flat, you have an excellent chance of one end not being flat against the wall - big problem. Individual cabinets with face frames eliminates this concern, since the cabinets can vary a litlle as you move down the wall. That's why you leave a reveal on the sides of the face frames and have a small space between the cabinet carcass sides.

Second, doing a cabinet job and learning as you go, I recommend building the carcasses and face frames, and maybe the drawers, and buying the doors and drawer fronts from a company that makes them. When the job is completed, what you see are the fronts. There is a huge amount of work and some tool expense involved in making good looking doors and drawer fronts. You will have plenty of woodworking making the carcasses and face frames and hanging the doors and drawers.

Building drawers is relatively easy if you use a router table and a drawer lock bit. It is not as esthetic as dovetails, but it works really well, and it is fast and almost foolproof, once you get the bit set correctly. Using baltic birch or poplar for drawer boxes results in a nice looking and durable drawer. Melamine is a decent alternative for carcasses and drawers, since it is easy to clean and surprisingly durable. Edge banding melamine for drawer boxes is a bit of a pain, but not that big an issue.

ps - After rereading some of the OP's posts, I have another recommendation. Consider buying the finished cabinets and doing the removal of the old cabinets and installation of the new ones yourself. That, in itself, it a big project, and you will learn a lot doing it.

[Peter Quinn]

Chris..the zipR's are hardned steel that wont pop heads off like drywall screws, much stronger. They have an agressive thread pattern that holds well in MDF/melamine and plywood. They have 'nibs' under the screw head that aid in counter sinking and the tips are like drill bits, like pocket hole screws, self taping, theoretically no pre-drilling required. The last 1/4" on the 1 3/4" #6's has no thread so they pull the joint in tighter (they are acting as little clamps I believe). I am holding one in my hand, man are they sharp.

No expert, but from my research 1/2" backs are an upgrade for face frame construction, required for frameless. 3/4" backs are a bit heavy for face frame construction, an up grade for frameless. In my area the difference between A-2 prefinished 1/2" and A-2 prefinished 3/4" is only a few bucks, so for your own house it may not be relavent cost wise.

[Joe Chritz]

Yes that is Ecab's and you just are supposed to have a business to get the software. It is very powerful and a bit complicated. Kitchen draw does a lot less but still functional and with much less learning curve. Ecabs will allow you to go from drawing to cutlist or CNC list with one step.

Zip's are a brand name. WW supply calls them assembly screws I think. Go with #8's since the weak point is always the board the thinner shank is nice. They have deep threads, and #17 cutting points. Get the countersink nibs too if it is an option.

1/2" backs are more for ease in hanging than any strength upgrade. If you are going to use dados and face frames then go all 1/2". Just butt joints and screws (plenty strong) then use 3/4 sides/bottom and 1/2" backs. It saves having to make a hanging rail and mounting it for very little extra money. If you wanted to you could use 3/4 bottoms and 1/2" sides but it isn't worth the time most often. Cutlist makes things like that pretty easy.

The advice on leaving room where cabs join is good. I make all wall stiles 2.5" and each that 90's another cab at 2.5". A blind corner has a center stile at 3.5". I am headed to do an install after lunch and if I can remember I'll grab some pics of the cab construction.

Joe

[Mitchell Andrus]

I make furniture for a living and I went to Crown Point in NH to provide my cabinets. I could have done it, but I figured it would have taken more time than it was worth. I could have cut the $27,000 down a bit but I'd still have had to buy the material$, in this case QS White Oak.

Calculate the cost of materials carefully, then decide if it's worth your time. Remember also, while you're building, you're also storing the semi-finished product. I would have had to rent a storage locker for about a year. $$$

With all of the side panels finished as doors, I've got 50 of them. (Big Kitchen) Sounds like a lot but each cab gets 2, 3 if it's an end cab.... 4 for the sub-zero and the cab above it.... They add up and doors take longer to make than the cabinet itself.

There are 19 doors in the photo counting the 4 on the pantry (at right)and the matching end panels.

It came out great and is in Crown Point's ads, brochures and website.

[Ed Peters]

I use "Cabinet Planner" for my design, quote, cutlist and material optimizer. Very easy to learn and pays for itself before the first job is done. A fully operational demo version is available at www.cabinetplanner.com. I think it allows 3 sessions before you are required to purchase.

All my cabinets are constructed using face frames and 1/2" overlay doors. My boxes are fully dado'd, glued and screwed using 3/4" material on all parts including the back panel. Each upper has a dado side to side across the back about 7" down from the top. The dado is 1/2" (+) deep and 1.5" wide. During the install, I use a laser to set a line around the room and attach a strip of 1/2" thick x 1.375" wide plywood at the appropriate height. This allows positive location of the studs and once it is up, the cabinets hang from it until they are permanently attached.

Drawers are made from 1/2" thick, baltic birch including the bottoms. The corners are machined using a drawer lock joint tool in the router table. A strong and attractive joint when properly executed. The bottoms sit in a dado on all 4 sides and all joints are glued. They are installed with overlay fronts and full extension glides.

That's my basics. If I can offer any specific help just ask away. I'm sure that you will find all the information provided will be worth every cent it cost you.

Ed

[Skip McKenzie]

A person with decent woodworking skills some time and basic tools with a table saw can build their own cabinets. We made our own when we built our house and we are by means experts. The savings can be huge we saved approx $7,000 by building ours. As mentioned before build a basic lower cab, pratice the joinery and keep it simple. We used Udo Schmitds( sp) book and had great results. We stayed with a Shaker design no fancy profiles, it's just basic, clean and looks very nice. Biggest part is sitting down and deciding what you want in a kitchen.

[Glen Gunderson]

If Poggenpohl's style interests you, I'd check out Mark Singer's cabinet building thread here:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=255922&mode=linear#post255922

He used a pretty streamlined system for building cabinets that produce striking results. I've built cabinets using similar methods and they go together extremely quickly and turned out quite well. Doing it this way basically cuts out many, IMO, superfluous steps that you'll find in a lot of cabinetmaking books.

Mark also has a thread on building office workstations that covers similar ground and there are many good tips in that thread as well.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=15940&

[Chris Yarish]

If Poggenpohl's style interests you, I'd check out Mark Singer's cabinet building thread here:

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=255922&mode=linear#post255922

He used a pretty streamlined system for building cabinets that produce striking results. I've built cabinets using similar methods and they go together extremely quickly and turned out quite well. Doing it this way basically cuts out many, IMO, superfluous steps that you'll find in a lot of cabinetmaking books.

Mark also has a thread on building office workstations that covers similar ground and there are many good tips in that thread as well.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=15940&

Thanks....I always like Mark's projects....Very much in line with my tastes.

[tom cooper]

Each upper has a dado side to side across the back about 7" down from the top. The dado is 1/2" (+) deep and 1.5" wide. During the install, I use a laser to set a line around the room and attach a strip of 1/2" thick x 1.375" wide plywood at the appropriate height. This allows positive location of the studs and once it is up, the cabinets hang from it until they are permanently attached.

Ed-
I thought your method for hanging upper cabs was very interesting and maybe even brilliant, but would like to know a little more about it. The only way I can figure this would work is if your back is screwed directly to the rear edges of the sides and top, "planted on" as they say - is that what you do? I would be nervous about this because all the weight gets transferred and depends on pull out strength of screws in plywood end grain?
Also, is the strip of 1/2" thick x 1.375" wide that you screw to the wall, one continuous length as long as the line of cabinets you are hanging or are you using individual strips for each box that you hang?

Your method sounds like a variation of the french cleat but maybe a lot sleeker. Can you post a pic or sketch a side view? It sounds great and I'd like to try it myself.

Thanks Ed, I hope you catch this post.


By the way this was GREAT topic, very informed answers and a collection of good tips and links. Thanks to Chris for putting up the original question.