If you had $100 to start a saw collection...

[Tim Byars]

...what would you get?

If, that is, you were an almost complete beginner like myself, practicing dovetails and tenons and such with only a little Marples flush cutter from HD.

I know there are a hundred threads about various saws, but I'm especially interested (as I get to know different posters as I pore over the forum) in what y'all would do with my money in my situation....that is, wanting a decent saw (or two? or three?) with an eye toward versatility, not knowing what projects and interests I will develop as I clumsily attempt to advance in the craft.

[Michael Faurot]

...what would you get?

If, that is, you were an almost complete beginner like myself, practicing dovetails and tenons and such with only a little Marples flush cutter from HD.


Have you developed any sort of sense for whether you like western push saws, or eastern pull saws? Me, I like and use both types, so I couldn't really tell you one is better than the other. Although if you like to tinker, you can modify and tune a lot of the western saws out there, but would have more difficulty with the eastern saws.

If you like the eastern style pull saws, Woodcraft has a decent Dozuki. I picked up their Dozuki "Z" (http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=850) last month on sale and have found it works great for doing dovetails.

I made my own western style dovetail saw, so someone else will need to give you a recommendation for what's a good brand to buy in the price range you're looking at.

If you think you might want to make/modify a western push saw, here's a couple of links that I came across when I was making my own dovetail saw that were very helpful:

http://www.mv.com/ipusers/geyer/dtsaw.htm
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~kmuldrew/woodworking/revelations_1.html (http://www.ucalgary.ca/%7Ekmuldrew/woodworking/revelations_1.html)

[Dan Barr]

just that. the lie-nielsen dovetail saw. ($125.00 though) I use mine for almost every "little" or "quick" cut in the shop. Nice endgrain cut. (for a hand saw) Its just all-around too handy not to have.

cheers,

dan

[Marcus Ward]

Well let's see, for 100$ you could get:

33 vintage disston saws, at the prices I've been paying for them.
10 vintage open handled dovetail saws at the prices I've been paying...
10 disston backsaws blah blah

You get the idea. Excellent old saws are affordable and do a great job.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Depends on what you want the saw to do, regardless of the project type.

Want to cut large panels or rough cut stock to manageable lengths? Get one crosscut and one rip panel saw.

Want to do general joinery (i.e. cut tenons, dovetails, etc.)? Get a rip filed backsaw.

Want to do small dovetails in small pieces (i.e. small boxes, drawers, etc.)? Get a rip filed dovetail saw.

I have to agree with Marcus. My recommendation would be to take that $100, check ebay and get a rip and crosscut panel saw, 14-16" backsaw, and a pistol grip saw set. Then get yourself a few saw files, say a 7" slim taper (for the rip panel saw, file it to about 5-6 PPI), 7" extra slim taper (for the crosscut panel saw, file it to about 8 PPI), a 5" extra slim taper (for the backsaw, file it rip to about 12 PPI), and a bastard cut mil file for jointing. Then go to Pete Taran's web site and print out the saw filing pages. Read them twice. Then get to work on your "new" saws. Clean them up, joint them, sharpen them and set them following those directions and you will be off and running. You will have gained an invaluable skill and have 3 saws for the price of 1 and the tools and skills to keep them in top condition.

Now I am not knocking the new saws or their makers at all. In fact, I would love to have one of Mike W.'s saws, however, even a new premium saw will need to be sharpened at some point in time. So you can learn to do it yourself or you can send it out every time it needs to be sharpened and then pay the price of another ebay saw to ship and sharpen it and also have to wait weeks to get it back while you are not working with it. I prefer to sharpen myself and keep working.

Sharpening your saws is not the brain surgery that many folks make it seem like. It's really not hard and it's better to learn on a $10 "junker" than on a $150 jewel. Find someone who lives close to you if you can and let them show you. If you can learn to sharpen your chisels and plane irons you can learn to sharpen your saws too. It's a part of routine tool maintenance that everyone who uses hand tools should learn to do.

[Thomas Knighton]

Unfortunately Marcus, I haven't found Disston backsaws for that price, so I suspect I'm not alone on that one.

But, if you want to pick one up for me, I'd be appreciative ;) :D

Tom

[Pedro Reyes]

Tim,

If you want to go straight to trying to cut joinery. I would go with an affordable (<$30) Dozuki, and a Home Depot shark to xcut boards (I still use this one).

I have Lie Nielsens (awesome) as well as old Disstons I had to work on. Didn't learn with either. You wouldn't want to learn how to drive on a BMW M5, neither on a BMW from the 50's which is in need of serious tune up, new tires and new brakes.

I for one favor the restoring path, but unless you love tinkering and fettling, I would start with affordable tools that will show you that bad results at first have to do with the user and not the tool. This will teach you as well as give you a baseline of what a tool should do. With a dull, uneven, un-tuned saw it could be both.

Marcus, wanna make 100% ROI (wall street would jump at this) I'll give you $50 right now for 15 vintage distton saws ;).

Truth is shipping on ebay is at a minimum $8, even if they were giving them for free you can only get 12 or so for $100. I have honestly not seen that many saws for less than $5, not anything that is worth buying.

peace

/p

[Marcus Ward]

Marcus, wanna make 100% ROI (wall street would jump at this) I'll give you $50 right now for 15 vintage distton saws ;).

Truth is shipping on ebay is at a minimum $8, even if they were giving them for free you can only get 12 or so for $100. I have honestly not seen that many saws for less than $5, not anything that is worth buying.


No way! Get your own! :)

Seriously, I had to dig through a lot of piles of junk to find em, and I don't mind rust hunting because the wife and I do it together. But you do have to hunt, these aren't lying out in the open, if they were, someone like you would have bought them. I had to dig 2 disstons out from under a shelf in an antique store a couple of weeks ago where they were hiding. Tenacity pays. Ebay is gonna die from shipping. 10$ is the minimum I'm seeing, with a lot of 12 and 15s as people try to cover their gap, which makes the cheap stuff too expensive to consider. Too bad. It was good while it lasted.

[Thomas Knighton]

The last three backsaw listings I seriously looked at went for over $100 on ebay last night. I wanted something for dovetails, and all three met those requirements. eBay looks to be OK for some things still, but it looks to me like saws ain't one of them.

Which is a shame since I first discovered Disston there. Oh well...:(

Tom

[Don C Peterson]

Well let's see, for 100$ you could get:

33 vintage disston saws, at the prices I've been paying for them.
10 vintage open handled dovetail saws at the prices I've been paying...
10 disston backsaws blah blah

You get the idea. Excellent old saws are affordable and do a great job.


Now that just not fair! I've looked and looked and I have never seen a decent open handled dovetail saw for less than about $30. I've been to every antique shop I can find and to quite a few estate sales and come away with a single D-8 for $12. Maybe I just haven't made enough of a hobby out of it...:(

I've picked up some decent larger back saws (12"-26") for under $10-$15 on eBay, but then shipping instantly doubles the price.

[Pedro Reyes]

I see you're not the business type Marcus, be that way ;)

Naa just teasing, I have more than enough saws. Mostly old Disstons. Nothing with fancy Double Eagle marks and such, but great saws.

Thomas,

Sorry to hear that, I've seen some decent ones go for <$30. Click on every single one, many times poor descriptions and less pictures make for better deals, easier to hide from collectors.

Happy Hunting.

/p

[Thomas Knighton]

Actually Pedro, I'd prefer one in poor condition. I love cleaning up old tools. I had to let one walk last week, just because I didn't have the cash, but it still went for about $40...and it was a rusted hunk of steel, to say the least. Unfortunately, all that seems to be there are restored already, hence taking my fun away. There is one back saw I'm keeping an eye on, but if I get it for a low enough cost, it will be the exception, not the rule it seems.

Give me your poor tools, your tired iron, your huddled masses of rust! ;)

Tom

[Robert Rozaieski]

Keep your eye out for saws other than Disston, which sell at a premium because of the name. There are plenty of other good saws out there, many of which could have been made by Disston but don't carry the Disston name. I personally only have 1 disston (an early #7) but I have 3 Atkins because they were much cheaper, but they are fine saws.

[Marcus Ward]

Ah, this is true, my very favorite saw, an open handled Smith & Sons - Sheffield I picked up for 10$. I sent it off to Cookes to be sharpened, shipping, retoothing, sharpening, shipping back, ran me 26$. So for 36$ I have a saw that is every bit as good as a new one, but has waaaaaaaay more character.

edit - not to dismiss Wenzloff, if I could afford them, I'd have them. ;)

[James Carmichael]

Go to Tashiro hardware for some Zeta saws. I highly recommend the joint blade for general purpose use. Woodcraft sells the Tashiro DT saw as their Dozuki. It goes on sale every December for $30. Very nice little saw.

[Marcus Ward]

I have bad luck with dozukis, I can't cut a straight line with them, even if they're expensive. I am afraid my western skills don't mesh with the eastern saw. :(

[Jim Becker]

just that. the lie-nielsen dovetail saw. ($125.00 though) I use mine for almost every "little" or "quick" cut in the shop. Nice endgrain cut. (for a hand saw) Its just all-around too handy not to have.

I feel the same way about my little Adria... these small dovetail saws are wonderful to have in the shop, even for a largely tailed woodworker like me. And I find myself finding more and more opportunities to use it, too.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

...what would you get?

If, that is, you were an almost complete beginner like myself, practicing dovetails and tenons and such with only a little Marples flush cutter from HD.

I know there are a hundred threads about various saws, but I'm especially interested (as I get to know different posters as I pore over the forum) in what y'all would do with my money in my situation....that is, wanting a decent saw (or two? or three?) with an eye toward versatility, not knowing what projects and interests I will develop as I clumsily attempt to advance in the craft.

Find another $30.00 and get a Gramercy

[Tim Byars]

Well, this has certainly given me a lot to think about...thanks to all who have chimed in.

Since that "tinkering and fettling" in the shop is a big part of the fun of all this anyway, I think my plan now may be to get some files and look for restoration projects (and maybe, just for fun, something like a $30-ish dozuki to tide me over :) ) As much as I've enjoyed learning to sharpen chisels and irons and such, I think it would be pretty cool to get the hang of turning an old saw into something good.

[Jon Toebbe]

Go to Tashiro hardware for some Zeta saws. I highly recommend the joint blade for general purpose use.
That's what I did, and I've been amazed at how well these inexpensive (don't call them cheap!) saw blades cut.

The king blade is perfect for fast, rough cross-cuts when breaking down lumber. The queen dovetail saw (what they're selling at Woodcraft?) is probably slower than a rip-filed saw, but cuts very cleanly and leaves a very narrow kerf. Plus, "Z" is the only brand of disposable Japanese saw blades I've come across that has rip-filed teeth.

They are an outstanding value, if you're interested in trying Japanese pull saws.

[Danny Thompson]

No risk in doing both--Buy a Dozuki "Z" along with a couple used Disstons and some files. That way you can saw now and learn how to sharpen in the weeks ahead.