Oak finishing disaster help

[Chris Virnig]

I've just completed the woodworking on a large oak armoire and started the finishing (the scariest part of the project). I flooded Daly Benite to the surface and wiped the excess off with a rag. After about 30 minutes I wiped on a minwax stain. After about 10 minutes wiped the excess off with a clean rag. Now a week later small dropplets are bleeding up through the pores. After several days wiping, the pores continue to bleed. I think my mistake was not letting the benite dry overnight. But what do I do now?

[Sam Yerardi]

Chris,

It sounds as if you have oil trapped in the pores that is starting to bleed out. I would try first removing the wax with mineral spirits. After that, I would apply mineral spirits and let it soak for a few minutes and then clean it off with a clean rag. I would keep repeating this procedure until the latest clean rag comes away from the work clean. This process is to try to remove as much of the oil as possible that is trapped in the pores. I'm not familiar with the product you're talking about but if you use it again, I would wait even longer than the vendor recommends. It sounds as if maybe you didn't wait long enough for that finish to cure.

[Steve Schoene]

I think you had a problem with an incompatibility with the Minwax, an oil based stain with a very light varnish binder, and the Benite which appears to be an oil/varnish mix, though the spec sheet and MSDS don't seem very much in sinc making it hard to be sure about the Benite.

Oil/varnish by itself can be a problem with oak--I'll bet it's red oak rather than white oak. The oil/varnish mix seeps into the very deep pores, especially when flooded on. Because it is away from the air it doesn't cure very rapidly at all, and was likely still uncured when the Minwax stain was applied. The oil in the Benite probably interfered with the cure of the varnish in the Minwax. (Minwax is known to be finicky in such ways.) Then, as temperatures changed the oil/varnish and/or uncured varnish seeped out of the pores. This is a very common problem with oil/varnishs in oak, though it usually lasts only a day or two.

If it doesn't stop bleeding shortly You may have to strip everything off with chemical stripper and start over, being careful to remove all stripper and neutralize the surface.

There was no reason to apply the Benite to oak before staining. Oak does not need a conditioner--it's not a blotch prone wood. And, just about any stain you are likely to find would be better than the Minwax.

[Chris Virnig]

I've started wiping with mineral spirits. It appears after the mineral spirits evaporates the surface is covered with tiny white specs just under or at the surface. Don't know what that's about but seems to sand off. When the bleeding stops and I need to apply more stain should I use something else, or am I locked in to the minwax for now?

[Sam Yerardi]

Chris,

It sounds like the spots are indicating that you still have oil to remove. When you sand and they disappear it sounds like you're going past the depth that the oil has soaked into the wood but that's just my opinion. If that is what it is then either you're not fully removing the wax enough to get to the oil or there is just still a lot of oil to remove. Try a few more applications of mineral spirits and let it set a bit longer before you wipe it off. You may need to repeat this several times.

As far as having to stay with Minwax, I don't think that you would have to do that but if you are still having the white spots or indications that there is still oil in the surface, then you might have to stick with an oil-based approach rather than a water-based but that's just a guess. I don't have any experience using water-based stains or dyes over an apparent existing oil-base. Jim Becker or Steve S. should have some good ideas to help you.

[Steve Schoene]

This is a major piece of furniture. I assume you expect to have it around for quite some time. I'm going to step out on a limb and suggest that you use paint stripper to remove as much of the old stain and finish as possible. Rinse and neutralize the stripper following manufacturers technical data sheet down to the last detail. Sand, and start with a completely clean slate. That way you don't risk having problems that seem fixed now reappear in different form a year or two from now. Is this a lot of work? Sure but it gives you a chance to end up with a really super finish.

We can work out a new finishing sequence that won't run into problems and will give you a look you really like. You can think about what color, whether you want an "in the wood" oil finish or a film finish and if so whether you want to fill the pores for a very smooth appearance. One thing for sure, ditch the Minwax. There are better choices for every one of their products, even if they mostly don't create disasters.

[Chris Virnig]

Thanks guys for the input. I'll post back and let you know how it goes.

[Chris Virnig]

Thought I'd update you as to my progress. I continued to wipe down the surface with mineral spirits for about a week. Each day there seemed to be a little less bleeding. After a week I started to wipe down with Acetone about once a day. I thought I was making progress but the bleeding continued. However the stuff comming out was clear and looked more like oil than stain. Yesterday I decide to get serious and sanded the project with 180grit and it was like a dam burst. spots all over started seeping. Today it was a little less. I just wiped down with Acetone again. I'm thinking it has to stop at some point. My question is, when it stops, for say a week in my warm shop, I'll need to restain. Any suggestions as to what I should use. Don't want to start over again.

[Joe Chritz]

Interestingly enough I have had great success with Minwax stains on red oak. Not on any other woods to speak off though. I don't however use any conditioner, sealer or other pre stain treatment. It is also important to let it fully dry before doing anything else to it.

Any chance it was a water based minwax stain?

Once you get the bleeding under control test a re-stain on an inconspicuous area. If it drys fully in 6-8 hours you are good to go.

Joe

[Steve Schoene]

It seems to me that as long as you keep adding solvent it's going to be tough for the material trapped in the pores to cure. I think you should wipe off any bleed spots before they dry with a dry cloth.

I'm still not sure but what the best thing to do isn't to use a stripper--methyl choride is the strongest to remove all the old finishing material that you can. After neutralizing the stripper, and giving it a light sanding you ought to be able to stain in the ordinary way. (But, NO MINWAX)

If you get it to stop bleeding I would still be a bit concerned with what ever chemical incompatibility was going on between the Benite and the Minwax stain, and consequently I would try to seal that off from finish you will be applying by a coat or two of shellac. This would mean you can't use a stain in the conventional sense--stain is for unsealed wood. You can get some color on the armoire by using a gel stain as a glaze, though you shouldn't shoot for a very dark color. To get dark over a sealed surface you would have to almost paint the surface with pigment. (I'm assuming you don't have spray capabilities.) Over the gel stain, you would put a film finish. I would recommend a wiping varnish such as Walterlox. You shouldn't put on very many coats. With a heavy coating oak can look cheap in my opinion.

[Andy Richards]

If so many people say no Minwax, what is an acceptable substitute?

[Matt Meiser]

I've used a lot of Minwax stain on red oak. I see the bleeding some times, but no where near as bad as what you describe. It seems to be worse the more I flood the surface, which is what you did with the first product. I've found it works better to wipe on/wipe off pretty quick. Red oak has huge open pores to suck in that oil and then bleed it back out. Virtually all of my oak projects have Minwax stain followed by 3 thin coats of Minwax wipe-on poly.

[Joe Chritz]

Like Matt said and I posted before I have had good luck with the light colors on Minwax stains.

For alternatives go to a real paint store and see what they have available.

Sherwin Williams has some nice products, ML Campbells is a production top of the line product if you can find it. I have hear Mowhawk products mentioned in discussions as well. I have used Penchrome from a local paint store in a very dark color and it worked very well. If I don't go to a fast drying SW stain it will most likely be the Penchrome.

Joe

[Brent Ring]

On a red oak cabinet I recently built, I had some problems with splotching on test pieces, so I used a extremely thinned shellac coat, then stained with a Watco stain, let it sit for about 20 mins, wiped it off, and then let it dry. I restained later to darken, same procedure, then let that coat dry, 24 hrs. Then started with courses of wipe-on poly. Worked well for me!

[Keith Rooks]

My dad and I have used Sherman Williams oil stain and oil poly on red oak and had great results. Wipe on, wipe off not much easier than that.

[Steve Schoene]

There are lots of other stains. McCloskey Tungseal, now becoming Cabot interior stains are one. Zar makes some. Old Master has a full line with both fast drying, slower drying, and gel stains. all of the same colors. I usually make my own by mixing dry pigment or artists oil paint with some varnish, a little oil to slow it down if I need it, and enough thinner to give it good working properties.

Minwax is very slow drying, and, judging by the numerous posts asking for help with problems after using it, subject to creating incompatibilities. If you must use it give it SUBSTANTIALLY longer time to cure than stated on the label. Remember, they likely give times based on near perfect drying conditions of 77° and 50% relative humidity which is one industry "standard" (Minwax is so sparing of technical data that it is not possible to really tell.) Deviate from that and cure times go up.

[glenn bradley]

Thanks guys for the input. I'll post back and let you know how it goes.

Not really telling you anything new, just sharing your experience. I was warned when using BLO that you could tell it was ready once the weeping stopped and it no longer smelled. I took this advice with a grain of salt.

I became convinced as I continued to wipe down a red oak project for more than a week before it stopped weeping. After another few days it stopped smelling.

I oil finished and paste waxed that unit a couple years ago and it still looks great. Thank goodness for the folks on these folrum sharing their knowledge.

[Don Bullock]

I've used Minwax on red oak with good results. Perhaps the key to my success is that I used Minwax products exclusively on them. I always allow far more time for curing than the container states. Yes, I have experienced some bleeding of the stain, but that has wiped off easily and the stain eventually dried before I applied the finish. It seems that the problem on your project was the mixing of products. That's something I try to avoid if at all possible. Sticking with the one company's products and following their directions has led to good finishes on my projects. The only time I've strayed from this was on a cherry table. After some people here assured me that I could use lacquer over BLO I tried it. The table came out looking great. I made sure, however, that the BLO had "cured" by waiting at least twice as long than had been suggested before I applied the lacquer. I've never had good results trying to put stain over stain. I'm with those who say to strip and start over. That would be far less work than you've already put in trying to "fix" the finish that you applied. The end results should be much better going this route as well.

[Chris Virnig]

Well, the armiore is finally finished. The bleeding stopped a couple of days after the sanding. I waited a week and reapplied a coat of stain. This time just dipped the rag in the stain and quickly wiped it off. I let it dry for a week and sprayed a coat in dewaxed shellac, sanded with 220 followed with 2 coats of Crystalac water based poly. If I can figure out how reduce the size of my pics I'll post a couple.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my plea for help. This site is the most valuable resource I've found.

[Chris Virnig]

Here are a few pictures

[Howard Acheson]

>> I flooded Daly Benite to the surface and wiped the excess off with a rag. After about 30 minutes I wiped on a minwax stain.

According to the Daly website, the benite should be allowed to dry for 24 hours or more before another finish is added.

Personally, I would bite the bullet and use a chemical stripper to remove all the finish and then re-sand and start over.