Which Felder model?

[Ben Brownbrwn]

Hi
I am planning to invest in Felder woodworking machines. I am confused as to, whether I should by individual machines like the saw, spindle moulder, planner Thicknesser etc or should I buy the CF 741 Combi. I do not want to ask Felder as I feel they will suggest whichever is profitable to them. So I want to hear from forum members for an informed opinion. Assume sufficient space is available to accommodate the above machines including a bandsaw.

[Jamie Buxton]

The good thing about combination machines is that they consume less floor space than separates. The good thing about separates is that you don't have the changeover time. For instance, you can go from jointing to planing without having to crank the table up and down. So if you have unlimited space, separates are better. If, like most of us, your space space is smaller, combinations are a better choice.

[Tom Zielinski]

I know when I finally upgrade my shop size will always be an issue. Change over to me is a moot point when you consider some people cannot setup all their seperates. How many times have you seen a planer that is stored under a multi purpose cart?

I am strongly considering a combo (Felder is at the top of my list) for a number or reasons. Space is one of them.

[Brad Shipton]

I went with a J/P and separate S/S partly because I didnt realize how much I would like the equipment until purchasing the J/P. I am glad I did because it does allow a little more flexibility leaving the jointer or planer setup to fine tune stock without altering setups in some situations. Cost wise, a single unit is cheaper and I know they have a couple of demo models in Delaware listed on their website. Have you downloaded the video? That might help make your decision. Most of the Felder reps will not make suggestions based upon profit because they will look at you as a long term client. My rep in Canada has been very helpful throughout and continues to help when possible. You might want to join the Felder Online Group on yahoo.

Good luck and I am sure you will be pleased with your decision either way.

Brad

[Jim Becker]

Ben, as others have illustrated, "how" you use your shop and tools as well as your space will enter into this decision. A full five function combo provides a lot of wonderful capability in a relatively compact space. But I'm like Brad in that I personally like the combination of a J/P/M with a slider or a slider/shaper combo. This better fits the way I like to work as well as my particular shop environment, so that's what I went with in my MM equipment... J/P combo and slider (with a shop configured router station using BenchDog cast iron components)

No matter which way you ultimately decide to do this, you'll certainly enjoy the investment for a long time. Congrats in advance!

[tim rowledge]

I'm fairly sure that the felder 7 series combos can be split into separate s/s and j/p units. No idea if they are the same sizes as the separates per se. Might be worth thinking about though.

[Philip Glover]

Ben,
As the owner of a five function combo machine I'll rank my preferences with # 1 being most desireable:

1) Separates if you have the space and budget.

2) J/P combo and separate saw, separate shaper.
A S/S combo is a slow changeover from shaper to saw and back again when the circumstance arises, and it will.

3) J/P combo and S/S combo. The adavtage here over #4 is there are more options to configure the machines the way you want them.

4) Full combo

A J/P combo is very easy to work with if you need to go the combo route - I highly recomend one.

Regards,
Phil

[Rob Russell]

Ben,
As the owner of a five function combo machine I'll rank my preferences with # 1 being most desireable:

1) Separates if you have the space and budget.

2) J/P combo and separate saw, separate shaper.
A S/S combo is a slow changeover from shaper to saw and back again when the circumstance arises, and it will.

3) J/P combo and S/S combo. The adavtage here over #4 is there are more options to configure the machines the way you want them.

4) Full combo

A J/P combo is very easy to work with if you need to go the combo route - I highly recomend one.

Regards,
Phil

I'd agree that list, although I'd say that the difference between option 1 and 2 would be worth it for a production shop. For a 1-man shop, the J/P combo is fine.

I went with option 3, but have the separate FD250 mortiser instead of the unit that mounts to the front of the J/P.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Hi
I am planning to invest in Felder woodworking machines. I am confused as to, whether I should by individual machines like the saw, spindle moulder, planner Thicknesser etc or should I buy the CF 741 Combi. I do not want to ask Felder as I feel they will suggest whichever is profitable to them.

My sales guy at Felder told me NOT to buy a Felder BS. So I suspect that you may be mistaken about that latter bit.

At any rate I went with seperates. The level of refined sophistication and organization you need to have to take a complex project from rough to finished on a combo is not a skill set I possess.

Hell I find that a combo J/P can be a PITA.

[Steve Rowe]

Hi
I am planning to invest in Felder woodworking machines. I am confused as to, whether I should by individual machines like the saw, spindle moulder, planner Thicknesser etc or should I buy the CF 741 Combi. I do not want to ask Felder as I feel they will suggest whichever is profitable to them. So I want to hear from forum members for an informed opinion. Assume sufficient space is available to accommodate the above machines including a bandsaw.
Ben,
I had a Felder C741SP combo that I just recently sold to go the separates route. The Felder combo is a really nice machine and the X-roll slider is second to none. Like many have already said, it depends on how you work as to whether the combo is the best choice. It certainly is a space saver. Other than a few minor convenience type items, the biggest problem to me was shaper changeover. The way I work, I found myself almost avoiding using the shaper because of the following:

I upgraded the standard fence plates to the Aigner integral fence plates. This added about 50 pounds to the weight of the shaper hood and it was real heavy. This discouraged me from even wanting to install it.
I had a 4 wheel power feeder on the tilt bracket with the "Big Lift" assembly and it was still a bear to tilt up and down. This may not be a problem with shorter sliders but if you get the large frame machines, it is a real issue to tilt a 150# feeder that is at the end of a long moment arm.These may or may not be issues for the machine configuration that you select. The J/P combo portion never bothered me or impacted my productivity in the slightest.

So, I opted to go with a stand alone slider, a J/P combo, and a shaper (which I do not yet have). Given your criterion of space not being an issue, if the budget permits, I would opt for separates.
Steve

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Ben, as most have said, separates are the way to go if you have the space. And especially if you plan on using the shaper alot. I think this is the most inconvenient function of a combo.The only thing good about the saw/shaper combo is it only adds about $3K to the price. You cant buy a stand alone shaper anywhere near the quality for that price. If you dont plan on using the shaper alot then it would be fine. The most convenient would be a seperate saw, shaper and a J/P combo. These will take up more space and cost more also.

Personally, I bought the saw, and six months latter bought the shaper. This works better for me because I use the shaper as mush as I do the saw. Next will be the J/P, but probably the Jet model, I dont use a jointer or planer near enough to justify the price of the Felder.

[Mark Drayton]

Space limitations have forced me to use combos for many years and for a one-man hobby shop I haven't found it a great hardship although a little more planning of projects is needed to minimize setup time. I have had a CF741 - my third combo machine - since 2003.

At least as important as the decision to go separates or combo with European sliding table machines is the decision on length of slider. Long is better if you have the space. If you use man made boards, having a slider of at least 9 ft. is a great advantage to allow a little space for clamps. Unfortunately I don't have this benefit. With the 700 series Felders this means getting the extended cabinet versions as the shorter cabinets won't take the longer sliders. Even for natural wood boards, the capability to rip on the sliding table as opposed to using the rip-fence is very helpful.

Within the last year, I have extended the width of my shop a little, and in association with this I've split the CF741 j/p from the s/s and this is working very well for me and the space I have available. The now two machines are connected by an electrical "umbilical cord" strung across the ceiling to allow the j/p to remain controlled by the s/s electrics. Installing separate electrics would have been more involved and expensive. A couple of blanking plates are needed on the j/p and supplied by Felder. In this configuration, the s/s table is of course much narrower to the right of the blade viewed from the infeed side. For me this is a space saving advantage as whenever possible i support the stock on the sliding table outrigger to the left of the blade. However I have arranged demountable extension tables and demountable extension to the F-rail on which the rip-fence mounts - all from Felder supplied parts and accessories. This actually provides an even wider ripping width than I had before when circumstances demand.

You might not want to go down this route when buying a new machine but it is an option you might bear in mind and in my view provides advantages for the space-challenged single hander.

Mark

[Peter Quinn]

Been looking at the felder myself for some time now. Would never want my shaper on the outfeed of my saw. Jointer/planer combo would buy me some valuable space for say, a slider! Jointer/planer/saw makes sense to me because they fit logically into one milling routine. First I make my parts flat and to size, then move on to shaping/jointery. Sometimes I go back and forth between jobs in a given day. Would hate to have to break down my shaper setup to use my saw. Any experience with their horizontal mortisers or hammers?

[Tom Court]

Ben, I have the Felder KF700 (saw/shaper) and it has worked out very well in my hobby shop. Switching the machine from one function to the other only takes a couple of minutes, excluding the time to set it up for the particular cut you're going to make (which you would have with separates too). The biggest drawback, as others have pointed out, is you lose the setup when you switch functions so even though it's possible to get back to that exact same setup you'll probably want to do all your shaping/cutting for a particular setup in one session which requires a little planning.
I have the 3 wheel power feeder on the tilt bracket and it's very easy to tilt up without the Big Lift. The standard shaper fence weighs about 40 lbs and is fairly easy to position.

Tom.

[Rick Potter]

I also have the KF700 saw/shaper. I find that I never use the shaper function, because I am not bright enough to be able to do all my sawing first then shape. I always need to go back to the saw to change or add something. I have a small 1 1/2 HP Delta shaper that I use constantly instead.

I'm with Phillip. If you are not short on space, get separate saw and shaper, and a jointer/planer combo. If you can afford it, get the one with the motor to raise and lower it. You will love that feature.

Rick Potter

[Ben Brownbrwn]

Thank you all so much, fellas. I waited to get enough inputs now I have made my decision. I will go the Separates as for as the Saw and Shaper a Combo for J/P. But Is there any problem with the Felder band saw machines? I will add the mortiser six months hence. I had already watched the video posted on the Felder website and even have the brochure. Step two. Contact Felder:).

[Brad Shipton]

Look over all the accessories you want too. You might want to order it all at once and beware, they add up quickly.

Brad

[Al Killian]

If you do go wit a combo machine, Get a extra spindle. My woodmaster came with one spindle and I had to change the moulding heads for the planer heads. This became a headache, so I orderd a extra spindle. Now my planer head stays in one and the opther is for moulding blades. I have one more comeing as there are two mouldings that I always seem to be makeing.

[Steve Rowe]

Ben,
It is my understanding that the Felder BS are made by ACM. This is the same company that makes the higher end Laguna BS as well as the former Bridgewood BS. There is nothing wrong with these saws. I never got the perception that Felder was all that interested in pushing machinery that they don't actually manufacture whether it be the BS, sanders, or edgebanders, etc. Several years ago, I was looking at edge sanders and Felder encouraged me to look at the ACM which happens to be the manufacturer of the Felder edge sander. It seems as if they want to have the appearance of a one stop shop but, don't seem to want to bother with it at the same time. Why? Anyones guess is as good as mine.
Steve

[Ben Brownbrwn]

Thanks Steve. That was a good input. I will look at other BS before I take the plunge in a Felder.

[Harold Eubank]

Hi Ben: I read your post about combo machines and thought I might throw my two cents in. I own a BF7-41 with the 7' (approx.) sliding table. I have had the machine for 7-8 years and wish I had the separate units. I do woodworking in spurts as a hobby and find the constant back and forth to be a pain in the (expletive deleted). I also had to deal with separating the machine (it does come apart) to get it into my basement shop. That in and of itself was a major issue as there is no such thing as a light weight Felder. When it was reassembled, something I did myself, the machine had to be realigned in all three axis. My Felder rep at the time came to my shop and spent most of the day with precision 3' Starrett straight edges to get it where it was uasable. Although its very close to this very day I don't think its still as good as it should be. One of my very real nightmares is going to be moving this machine out of my basement when I am too old to continue woodworking.
In any case I have found the unit to be quite high quality but as you are well aware, it carries a price. Hope this info will help with you decision and hopefully, if you buy the CF7-41, you do not have to separate the machine.

[Dirk Boehmer]

Hello Ben,

I would prefer solo machines. A combination machine needs
a lot of room around it. Seperate machines can be spread over
the room. With mobile bases you are very flexible.

A second argument for seperate machines. For every job on
a combination machine you have to configure it new.

BTW:
You can download the 850MB video demo directly from Felder.
There you can see all features of the combination how a
german woodworker is building an office desk.

http://kassel.felder-gruppe.at/video_download.php?from=video&url=http://mirrorfelder.cnh.at/felder_dvd_alleskoenner/temp_Die_Alleskoenner_2007_GER.wmv&txt=Trailer%20-%20Holzbearbeitung%20mit%20Kombimaschinen

--
Dirk

[Ned Bark]

2 questions

I too have the same initial question as you. I watched Felder demonstrate the 741s out at AWF in Vegas and I was pleased with what I saw. I AM cramped for space and the combination seems ideal for me. I have a wood mizer, a solar kiln, and my main use would be squaring up rough lumber. I cut 2500 bd ft of walnut alone last year. The 16" jointer would be a godsend, as would the heavy duty saw. I hate losing a good number of 12" wide boards, I have fudged getting a good intial face with a makeshift sled on my existing 12 planer, but it is less than satisfactory and time consuming. I end up ripping a lot of incredible lumber into 6" stock which I can handle with a 6" Powermatic jointer..

I do custom cabinet work on the side and as stated, the addtl cost of around 3 grand for the shaper is by far more cost effective than pursuing a stand alone shaper of similar quality (which I would really be tight space wise to begin with) I started woodworking in the 70's with a Shopsmith, so I learned early on how to plan for efficiency. Even with best plans though, at time I cursed the multi set up at times.

One aspect that I have not read on this thread has to do with MASS. The sheer 2000 pound plus, would seem to play a significant role in vibration damping and such.

The second question is what is being used as a motor generator or source for three phase power. Any specific recommendations?

Brand new here ... my first post. I've arleady experienced a wealth of info.
Thanks all

[John Harden]

Happy Felder owner here who wrestled with the same issues the OP is.

I had seperates and wanted to save space and upgrade qualtiy and capacities.

Ultimately, I went with the KF700SP saw/shaper and a seperate AD741 J/P. My reasoning was this gave me some distinct advantages over the full combo.


KF700SP uses the monstrous rip fence off the 900 series machines, which I much preferred over the design of the fence on the full combo that you switch back and forth from saw to J/P.
While it is true you can seperate out the J/P from a full combo, it is not recommended by Felder. Clunky, and you'll need an umbilical as the main switch on the saw unit must still be set to which functionality you want.
If space ever does become an issue, I can orient my seperates so that they take up just about the same small footprint as the full combo.
Perhaps the best advice I can give you is to visit the shops of owners check out the tools, and most of all, choose your machine options VERY carefully. I did research and talked to owners for 2-3 months before making a purchase. Many, if not most people who later sell their Felder/MM units do so to upgrade machine features that they wish they'd gotten the first time around.

You can always add doo-dads like extension tables, different or supplemental shaper fences, or attachments later. Adding in VS motors, electric height adjustment, longer or shorter slider, etc., can be done, but it is very expensive and may even require a visit from a technician. $

I wavered a bit on the 3 phase, VS motors for the saw/shaper, but now am REALLY glad I got them. No belt changes on the shaper. Just turn the dial to the approrpriate setting. This means I'm much more likely to actually use the correct speed setting. Also makes it much easier to FIND the correct speed setting for the combination of tooling, cut, and wood species I am machining.

It also comes in handy on the saw as there's really no need to spin that huge 12" blade at max speed. Dial it down to about 2/3 and it still has the same tip speed as a 10" blade, cuts just as well, and best of all is a LOT quieter.

Best of all, they only require single phase input and use an built in VFD controller to power the 3 phase motors. Sweet!!!!

I'm not a real heavy user of my shaper, so a saw/shaper combo was fine for me. Electric height adjustment makes changovers very quick. You'll save significant dollars (and space) by combining these two options. This is where a shop visit comes in handy. Have the owner let you do changeovers yourself 2-3 times. You'll get the hang of it pretty quickly. This will help you decide if this would work for you. The shaper fence and head assembly is cast aluminum and I find it very maneagable, despite being 5'9" and not the body builder type.

I'm surprised at the comment by the fellow who had trouble with his Big Lift/PF setup. I have the same rig and it raises and lowers the 150 lb. PF effortlessly. Key is to find the correct orientation for the PF, then mark the locations on it with a sharpie so you can quickly return to them when it is time to lift or lower. Easy, one handed operation.

My Felder rep was no pressure and will help guide you through machine and accessory options. He had excellent input and saved me money, while offering excellent suggestions on things I hadn't thought of, including some options that are not really necessary.

What would I now do differently? Believe it or not, I'd give more consideration to the 20" J/P, versus my 16".

In any event, good luck with whatever you ultimately choose.

EDIT: Another piece of advice. Consider the 30mm shaper spindle over the 1 1/4". You can use 1 1/4" heads on a 30mm spindle with a spacer, but not vice versa. Could be an issue if you either own or get a future deal on some 30mm tooling. I got the 1 1/4" spindle and wish I had gotten the 30mm.

Regards,

John

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Ned, I have a 741 Pro. I completely agree with most everything that John mentioned, but we diverge on the choice of machine.

I picked a full combo because of space mainly. The layout of my space would dictate the planer/jointer to be put in the same arrangement as they are in a combo anyhow, so why not put them together? I never have problems with the planer being in the way of the saw/shaper. My work flow is predictably linear enough that the sequence always eliminates any changeovers from planer to saw. That change takes all of 30 seconds BTW.

I decided that because the bulk of the material being handled on a slider is left of the blade, the table size afforded by the j/p is perfectly adequate. It also gives me the ability to swing the power feeder over the jointer to face joint. I LOVE that feature! I do agree that the rip fence on the 700 is nicer, but the rip fence is certainly not the most used part of my machine, and the 741's is pretty good.

I originally thought that the shaper on my machine would be rarely used, but to have a full featured shaper so easily accessible has proven to be used a lot more than I expected. I have both 30mm and 1 1/4" spindles. They don't cost that much, and it's nice to just yank a setup spindle and cutter to swap to a different profile occasionally. One point of advice, the extra long spindles will not lower enough to sink completely into the table, so make sure you order the length that you need. I can't imagine why anything longer than standard would be needed. I also do use the tilt. Like John said, get power raise and lower though. I did not, wish I had.

Good luck!

[John Harden]

BTW, if you listen to that Rozmiarek guy, it'll add $10K to the cost of your machinery. Of course his observations and recommendations are spot on, but nevertheless, every time he posted a message in my thread, it cost me $1000...... :)

Consider yourself warned!!!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

BTW, if you listen to that Rozmiarek guy, it'll add $10K to the cost of your machinery. Of course his observations and recommendations are spot on, but nevertheless, every time he posted a message in my thread, it cost me $1000...... :)

Consider yourself warned!!!


LOL! Sorry John! :D

[Steve Rowe]

I'm surprised at the comment by the fellow who had trouble with his Big Lift/PF setup. I have the same rig and it raises and lowers the 150 lb. PF effortlessly. Key is to find the correct orientation for the PF, then mark the locations on it with a sharpie so you can quickly return to them when it is time to lift or lower. Easy, one handed operation.


John,
I am the guy that had the problem. My setup was with a CF741SP and is quite different from your KF700. On your setup, to lower the PF, you probably have the horizontal arm perpendicular to the blade. You have a very short moment arm to overcome when you orient this in your configuration. With the CF, you cannot do it this way because the jointer table gets in the way. Try putting the horizontal arm of your PF along the blade axis and positioning the power feeder such that it doesn't interfere with anything. Then try to lower or raise your power feeder. I think you will experience the same problem. It is unique to the CF series machine.
Steve

[John Harden]

John,
I am the guy that had the problem. My setup was with a CF741SP and is quite different from your KF700. On your setup, to lower the PF, you probably have the horizontal arm perpendicular to the blade. You have a very short moment arm to overcome when you orient this in your configuration. With the CF, you cannot do it this way because the jointer table gets in the way. Try putting the horizontal arm of your PF along the blade axis and positioning the power feeder such that it doesn't interfere with anything. Then try to lower or raise your power feeder. I think you will experience the same problem. It is unique to the CF series machine.
Steve


Aaaahhhhh, I see. Good point. Yup, the ideal orientation for my PF horizontal arm is just about perpindicular to the blade. If I move it further back towards the rear of the saw, it becomes much more difficult to raise or lower.

Have you asked the folks on FOG what the solution (if any) is? I'm wondering if a shorter, longer or different resistance hydraulic cylinder would make a difference?

Regards,

John

[Rick Potter]

Gee, I wonder where Fontucky is?

Rick Potter

[Ned Bark]

Stever Roz.... thanks for the good input. Currently I also have a Powermatic 66 sitting left side of a powermatic long bed (6") jointer so adapting would be absolutely no problem. You led me to a BFO (Blinding Flash of the obvious) Never looked at it that way before. Typical ,,, can't find the forest because of trees.

John, so if I hear you correctly, I do NOT need 3 phase available, that the VFD controller on board is all I need?

I've been through the catalog with afine tooth comb, but couldn't find out power needs. A phone call was my next step.

I appreciate all your comments .... one thing I am convinced of is to make wise selections with options. I at first figured the power raise feature would be a luxury, but the more I think, it is a super time saver in a multi use machine. Variable speed makes sense

Extra spindles for the shaper are a no brainer.

Is the mortising feature worth pursuing from a production standpoint view? Or, are there better options? I build a lot of custom outdoor seating, in mahogany and white oak. And as such I spend a lot of time "cleaning" up with a chisel from a heavy mortiser I own .. I have never liked its weakness in holddown, adding clamps and a self designed rack helps but it has always been less than satisfactory.

Thanks all

[John Harden]

John, so if I hear you correctly, I do NOT need 3 phase available, that the VFD controller on board is all I need?

Is the mortising feature worth pursuing from a production standpoint view? Or, are there better options? I build a lot of custom outdoor seating, in mahogany and white oak. And as such I spend a lot of time "cleaning" up with a chisel from a heavy mortiser I own .. I have never liked its weakness in holddown, adding clamps and a self designed rack helps but it has always been less than satisfactory.

Thanks all

That's correct. I use a 30 amp, single phase input for my combo. The VFD controller converts the single phase to three phase for the motors, which is what allows for the variable speed capability. Works very smoothly. I particularly like how you can turn the speed all the way down before starting the shaper. You then slowly dial it up until you reach the optimum speed for your setup.

I didn't get the mortiser as I really like my Leigh FMT, but I believe it is designed for the very applications you describe. This is where it excels over my FMT or other options. The heavy table and clamps allow you to cantilever heavy and/or long stock off of it while mortising.

One final piece of advice would be to buy David Best's, Survival Guide. Best accessory you can have for your Felder. Even if you have someone come out to commission the saw, it will still be a handy reference down the road. He also wrote one for a J/P, but I'm not sure if it has been published yet. If you e-mail him on FOG, he may send you an advance copy. He sent me one and I used it to set up my J/P.

Good luck and let us know what you finally end up with!!!!

Regards,

John

[Ned Bark]

Thanks John, I appreciate your help