Gross Stupidity, An ethical issue, and a Question

[Wade Lippman]

Gross Stupidity....
I just finished my router table with a Freud 3000. Ran a large roundover bit and was very happy with it. I put the bit away. Then I set up the power switch for it. Got that connected and tried it.
Careful readers will note that I didn't say I unlocked the spindle after taking the bit out; I mean, why would you, just got to lock it again to put another bit in. It hummed for a second and went up in smoke. My brand new router...

Ethical Issue...
"If within the first 90 days... you are not completely satisfied with your Freud power tool for any reason you may return ... for a full refund."
Obviously I am not satisfied! Okay, it was my fault, but I am still not satisfied. Legally the issue is clear; I am entitled to a refund. It is not so clear ethically.
Would you return it, or just eat the loss?

I didn't do either. I called Freud and told them what happened. The CS person told me to return it and they would take care of it. I am not sure what that means, but I am hoping it means they will replace it. We'll see in couple weeks.

The Question...
How do I prevent this from happening again? Some people with two wrench routers tie their wrench to the plug, so they can't use the wrench while it is plugged in. I don't see any obvious fail-safe system for a locking spindle router. Suggestions?

[Greg Funk]

Wade,

If you lock the rotor on a tablesaw or any other decent piece of machinery the motor overload will trip. I would expect that to be true of routers as well. I wouldn't worry about it. If it happens often enough they will improve the design of their router.:)

I am not familiar with the Freud router but the spindle lock on my Porter cable is spring loaded so it is not really possible to leave it locked.

Greg

[Eric Gustafson]

I have 4 routers. Two PC 2 1/4 hp and two 1hp Craftsman. It is amazing that the Craftsman routers disable the power when engaged, but the more expensive PC routers do not.

Perhaps a circuit breaker appropiately sized for normal load would trip before burning the motor?

[Travis Gauger]

I have my second Frued 3000 from the same exact scenario. Frued gave me a new one too. I now look each time before kicking the switch. I'll be interested in hearing the ideas.

[Greg Cole]

Wade,
I am sure this has happened to more than one of these routers..... if they take care of it by supplying you with a new one - be thankful, glad whatever ya wanna call it.
Now if ya do it again, I'd say you need a router that doesn't need to be unlocked after a bit change.:confused:
I know it's not funny to damage anything, especially with something nice n new... but as soon as you have a working router again.. you'll be able to laugh about it every time ya think about it.

Cheers.
Greg

[Brad Townsend]

I don't think I would feel particularly guilty about returning it as I would consider the spindle lock a design flaw. I can't imagine a spindle lock not being spring-loaded. Not having it spring-loaded would certainly be handy for bit changes, but I can see many, including myself, doing just exactly what you did. You were totally upfront with Freud. If they say they will take care of it, send it in with a clear conscience and think nothing more about it.

[Mike Goetzke]

Since it seems it has happened to more than one I would return it and get a double wrench router.

(Doesn't the spindle lock have a spring to disengage it? Most if not all of my portable-powered hand tools do. )

Mike

[mike wacker]

You told them the truth and they said they would take care of it. You'll met every ethical obligation I can think of. I have had way more things taken care of when I admitted stupidity/foolishness/whatever than I have ever gotten fixed going in telling some BS tale. My 2 pennies.

[Dennis Hatchett]

I can't think of a more obvious design flaw - except maybe for a hotdog pushstick for a sawstop.:p

[richard poitras]

Not sure what the lock looks like but is there any way you can put a rubber ban on it so it can’t engage and that way you just push it in when you need it and leave the rubber ban on it? :)

[glenn bradley]

If the router, by design, is allowed to be turned on in that situation and there is no safety designed in to keep it from smoking, I would have no problem with returning it. You are not a dummy for stumbling over a design flaw that at least one other person posting here has found as well.

I guess my dad should stop complaining that his Triton disengages the power switch when he locks the collet. He doesn't like having to reach under the table to re-engage it and wants to disable it. Maybe this is not such a good idea, eh? Go ahead and return it with a clear conscience and make disengaging the collet part of your new routine.

[Tom Esh]

...It is amazing that the Craftsman routers disable the power when engaged, but the more expensive PC routers do not...

No kidding. I had a 20+ year old CMan that had the lock + interlock so you could latch the spindle lock but only with the pwr switch off. Seems they too have abandoned it on newer models. IMO the double wrench system isn't all that great either. By nature the offset wrench (a.k.a. finger banger waiting to happen) for my PC890 wants to skew and slip off - and usually succeeds in doing so. The mfrs could do better in this regard. It ain't rocket science.

[Art Mann]

Actually, I like the fact that you don't have to hold a spring loaded pin in the collet while trying to remove a router bit at the same time. It does away with the problem of needing 3 hands during bit changes. However, the gross stupidity is on the part of Freud. That feature is going to cost them a lot of money.

[Charles Wiggins]

The Question...
How do I prevent this from happening again? Some people with two wrench routers tie their wrench to the plug, so they can't use the wrench while it is plugged in. I don't see any obvious fail-safe system for a locking spindle router. Suggestions?

I don't know of a failsafe solution. I rely on good habits more than anything else. I don't do anything blade/bit related without unplugging first.

[Peter Quinn]

I like the two wrench system. I have notice the PC spindel wrench is a little thin and tends to twist, but my bosch works better. I always make that last turn with the wrenches oriented so I am squeezing them like a firm hand shake (thats why they have off set heads) Same thing on the shaper. Never bang my knuckles. At least not tightning my collet. My bosch 3 1/4 plunge has the collet lock system, gotta lay it on its side or pay a kid to hold it while I turn the wrench and push the button. Tried bear hugging it but that feels too intimate!

[Jim Becker]

Both my Dewalt and Festool routers have a one wrench system, but the "locks" are spring loaded and only stay engaged while your finger or thumb is on them.

To the OP, bummer on the problem, but I think you did the right thing in both calling Freud and being up front with them about what happened.

[Ron Dunn]

A good rule to live by is that if the issue of ethics enters your head, you definitely have a problem which you should resolve against yourself.

The only case where I'd possibly think it was Freud's responsibility is if there is no mention anywhere in their manual that it is necessary to unlock the spindle.

[Bruce Page]

Wade, it’s like the first time that I left the chuck wrench in the lathe chuck as a young machinist apprentice and got smacked in the chest with it when I turned the lathe on. I learned real fast not to do that again, and I never did.

[Pete Stack]

Your honesty is probably going to be rewarded with either a brand new Freud router or old router repaired free of charge.

I haven't had this issue with any of my routers (my wife would disown me if she knew I had four ;)). But I'm sure Freud would rather keep you a happy customer than a dissatisfied one. This way you can go on your favorite woodworking website--wonder which one it will be!--and tell everyone how great the customer support at Freud is and you'll continue to buy their wonderful products.

P.S. I don't work for Freud. Just sayin'...

[Bill Franklin]

I have that router also, and I am within my 90 days. It warns you not to leave it locked, but that is a pretty serious consequence. It doesn't come out and say you will ruin the router. I try to be diligent about things, but makes me wonder how long until I do it. Now I am rethinking keeping it. Thanks for the post.

[Jim McDonald]

Get an extender for the router chuck...I've got one that only requires an allen wrench to release the bit. On my previous set up , I had to put a spacer between the router and the plate to set the router lower, but that was the only modification. Works a whole lot better than fumbling around with two wrenches or having to reach under to engage the lock.

[ROY DICK]

What Mike W. said. You were honest about it.

[Ron Dunn]

Jim, is an extender a safe thing to use?

Maybe a naive question, but I'm concerned about the implications of lengthening the router bit, and the consequent risks of deflection, slippage, etc.

[Dave Falkenstein]

I have the older model of Freud's 3+HP router, FT2000e. It has a spring-loaded spindle lock. It seems that the improvements in the new model were not all that well engineered when it comes to the spindle lock. The old one is fool-proof. One would think a spindle lock that is not spring loaded would also disengage or protect the motor. It sure sounds like Freud is recognizing the error and being more than fair by accepting the router for repair or replacement.

I personally prefer the two-wrench method over the spindle lock. To me it is awkward and difficult holding the spring loaded spindle locks on two of my routers with very different mechanisms. On a third that has a spindle lock, I use the alternate two wrench method. My old PC router uses two wrenches.

Good luck with Freud's response to your problem.

[Tom Veatch]

...How do I prevent this from happening again? ...

Replace the chuck/collet with an Eliminator (http://www.infinitytools.com/products.asp?dept=1237) quick change chuck - rumblings are that the DW625 version will work on the Freud - and forget that the spindle lock even exists.

[Tom Veatch]

Jim, is an extender a safe thing to use?

Maybe a naive question, but I'm concerned about the implications of lengthening the router bit, and the consequent risks of deflection, slippage, etc.

I've used one for several years on my table mounted PC7518 and have seen no evidence of adverse effects.

[Wade Lippman]

Replace the chuck/collet with an Eliminator (http://www.infinitytools.com/products.asp?dept=1237) quick change chuck - rumblings are that the DW625 version will work on the Freud - and forget that the spindle lock even exists.

The description is a bit vague. Is it for 1/2" and 1/4"? I presume it is more than just a set screw; how does it work?

[Bruce Benjamin]

I have the older model of Freud's 3+HP router, FT2000e. It has a spring-loaded spindle lock. It seems that the improvements in the new model were not all that well engineered when it comes to the spindle lock. The old one is fool-proof. One would think a spindle lock that is not spring loaded would also disengage or protect the motor. It sure sounds like Freud is recognizing the error and being more than fair by accepting the router for repair or replacement.

I personally prefer the two-wrench method over the spindle lock. To me it is awkward and difficult holding the spring loaded spindle locks on two of my routers with very different mechanisms. On a third that has a spindle lock, I use the alternate two wrench method. My old PC router uses two wrenches.

Good luck with Freud's response to your problem.


I also have the FT2000e. Mine locks into place when I push it in and stays there until I pull it out. I think the amount of friction is adjustable. And yes, I have kept mine locked after installing a bit two or three times.:o I was able to catch it within about a second or two and there were no ill effects other than a very slight burned electrical odor in the air. :eek: Dang but those Freud routers are tough though. It still cuts through anything I throw at it. I guess I gotta stop drinking so much while using it...;):rolleyes:

Bruce

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello Wade,
Thank you for posting this.

Having a few routers myself, one of them being a Freud, you have probably saved me from suffering the same fate.

[Jim McDonald]

The description is a bit vague. Is it for 1/2" and 1/4"? I presume it is more than just a set screw; how does it work?

Got mine from Rockler part # 20188, like Tom, have used it for several years...only comes in 1/2" shaft, but uses a collet to adapt the business ewnd to 1/4 if needed. 5/32 allen tightens the chuck, have never had a problem with slippage. Costs about $ 50. cheaper than a new router:)

[Charles McCracken]

Geez guys, call off the hounds!!! There have to be at least a dozen posts in this thread bashing a design without even knowing what it is. For those that feel compelled to jump on this you should at least know what the conversation is about. The FT3000VCE has a spring loaded spindle lock that retracts on its own BUT you also have the ability to raise the collet above the table to change bits and you use the height adjusting wrench to lock the spindle through an access hole in the base. This allows for one-handed above table bit changes. The lock will stay engaged until either the wrench is used to unlock it OR until the router is lowered so that the collet is no longer above the table (about 1/4" of travel). Wade has asked and answered his own question in regards to ethics and left us with only one question: "How do I prevent this from happening again?". Regretfully, there is no fail-safe for this or any power tool design, but noting that the collet is above the table (which is just generally not a safe condition) before applying power is key. Leaving the wrench in position for the shaft lock whenever it is locked is my suggestion. And you should ALWAYS check for free rotation of a rotary power tool before plugging it in.



Wade,
Please let me know if there is anything I can do.

[Glenn Clabo]

Bruce...That's exactly why they used to have everyone on the apprentice floor in GE wear hard hats. It was like playing dodge a wrench in there.

[Anthony Anderson]

Wade, like Erik, I have a Craftsman 3.5hp router mounted in my table, which has the spindle lock feature. When the spindle lock is engaged, it disables the power switch and the router will not turn on. This is a nice feature, because there have been several times where I forgot to disengage the spindle lock before switching the router on, saving me the same trouble you are having. I know that Craftsman tools is not always highly thought of, but this router has served me well, spinning 3.5" panel bits through hardwoods with ease, and the safety on the spindle lock is nice bonus. Possibly in the future other companies can incorporate a similar design into their routers. Not bashing Freud, as I have two Freud 1700 routers that I like very much, and many of their bits. Glad to hear that Freud is taking care of you. From what I have read/heard, they always stand behind what they sell and take care of their customers. Good Luck, Bill

[Tim Marks]

I think it is a bit over the top to call a locking pin a defect. People who wrestle with two handed changes would consider it a design feature, and I am sure Freud does too. And thinking that it is a defect because the company hasn't installed an interlock is a stretch. Sure, safety interlocks are nice, but for every smart interlock a company designs, someone will outwit them with yet another way to damage the equipment or themselves despite the interlock.

Unneccessarily adding safety interlocks will just reduce the reliability of a piece of equipment. Treat your equipment carefully, establish proper safety routines, and interlocks won't be needed, and the equipment would be more reliable and less expensive. Just wait until the "safety interlock" switch on the spindle pin fails, permanently disabling your router and then see how you feel about that "feature" (ignoring any anecdotal evidence of 20 yo routers that still work).


Actually, I like the fact that you don't have to hold a spring loaded pin in the collet while trying to remove a router bit at the same time.
My PC890 has a spring loaded pin, but I have found that if I tension the spindle nut to start to unscrew it after I push the pin in, the pin will stay engaged until the nut is loose. So it really is almost a one handed operation.

[Steve Sawyer]

As to failsafe solutions, my Triton automatically locks the spindle when you extend the collet through the baseplate for bit changes - which ALSO locks the retractable cover over the power switch, so you can't hit the power until you crank the collet back into normal running position. This is an especially good safety feature when connected to a table-mounted switch.

[Rod Sheridan]

you should ALWAYS check for free rotation of a rotary power tool before plugging it in.



.

Finally, what needed to be said, has been said.

I'm sorry to see that the poster has lost a router, however it seems that Freud will do something for him, to their credit, since in my opinion the operator is always responsible for his actions.

As Charles said, rule number one is to rotate the tooling by hand to make sure it doesn't have any clearance or binding issues, not to mention shaft lock engaged.

it's always better to find out the the workpiece in the lathe is going to hit the tool rest by rotating by hand as opposed to under power, same for saws, shapers, routers etc.

Regards, Rod.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Charles - Thank you for the information on how the FT3000VCE locking mechanism works. My apologies for suggesting a deficient design.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Send it back.
Unless you can find that place in the warrantee that says your dis-satisfaction must arise AFTER you have acclimated yourself to the router's peculiarities ( such as a spindle lock you can leave engaged).

[Charles McCracken]

Charles - Thank you for the information on how the FT3000VCE locking mechanism works. My apologies for suggesting a deficient design.

Dave and All,

My apologies to all if I sounded testy. Maybe I was in a grumpy mood this morning and didn't realize it.

[Brad Townsend]

Charles, Thank you for posting and explaining the workings of the spindle lock in more detail. However, unlike Dave, I won't apologize for criticizing the design. Burning up a motor is a pretty heavy price to pay for something that even a reasonably careful person could overlook. Others will disagree. Just my opinion.

[Bruce Benjamin]

Send it back.
Unless you can find that place in the warrantee that says your dis-satisfaction must arise AFTER you have acclimated yourself to the router's peculiarities ( such as a spindle lock you can leave engaged).

Cliff, good to see you've kept up with the details of this thread in such a timely manner.:rolleyes:;) I think that fortunately the OP is well past that point.:cool:

Bruce

[Bruce Benjamin]

Charles, Thank you for posting and explaining the workings of the spindle lock in more detail. However, unlike Dave, I won't apologize for criticizing the design. Burning up a motor is a pretty heavy price to pay for something that even a reasonably careful person could overlook. Others will disagree. Just my opinion.

As I posted earlier in this thread, I have the FT2000e and I've accidentally turned on the motor 2 or 3 times while the spindle lock was engaged. But I don't see that as a design flaw at all. I see it as a more economical way to get the job done. I blame myself for forgetting to unlock it, not Freud. Most of us have other power tools that aren't completely idiot proof and I don't necessarily consider those inherent dangers a design flaw. Some of them, yes. But not most of them. It's just the way they are and it's up to us to be more careful with them or to choose not to use them.

Instead of being critical of Freud for making that relatively primitive spindle lock I applaud them for making a router tough enough to stand up to the abuse I put it through when forgetting to unlock it. I don't know if it will hold up to another episode though...

Bruce

[Charles McCracken]

Charles, Thank you for posting and explaining the workings of the spindle lock in more detail. However, unlike Dave, I won't apologize for criticizing the design. Burning up a motor is a pretty heavy price to pay for something that even a reasonably careful person could overlook. Others will disagree. Just my opinion.

Brad, I respect your right to your opinion but just to clarify one point further, applying electricity to the motor when locked could damage the electronic control module which isn't exactly the same as burning up the motor.

[jason lambert]

Design flaw. It is both your faults. I think Freud should improve there design as it was said above if it happens enought they will be forced to change the silly design and add a safety of some sort.

[Jules Dominguez]

I have one of the older Craftsman routers with the slide on the body that locks the shaft and at the same time disconnects power. It's a very user-friendly design.

I also have an older 3hp Ryobi plunge router that stays in my router table most of the time. It has the spring-loaded pushbutton lock. I can reach under the table with one hand to hold the button in, and use the collet wrench with the other hand, while standing in front of the table and looking down on the collet and bit. It's very user-friendly for router table use. (When I first signed onto a woodworking forum a couple of years ago and became aware that there were such things as router lifts, I wondered what they were and how they were used. I can change bits and adjust height on that router table pretty conveniently just by bending over the table a little and reaching under it.)

My third router is a recent model PC that requires two wrenches. I wouldn't call it a PITA, but it's certainly the least user-friendly of the three for changing bits.

[Brad Townsend]

Brad, I respect your right to your opinion but just to clarify one point further, applying electricity to the motor when locked could damage the electronic control module which isn't exactly the same as burning up the motor.
Again Charles, thanks for the clarification.

Perhaps if Freud had taken it one step further and did what PC did with the 890 motor. The spindle lock cannot be engaged unless the power switch is off and vice versa. That, combined with the ability to keep the spindle lock engaged hands free, would seem to be the best of both worlds.

[Chris Padilla]

Wade, it’s like the first time that I left the chuck wrench in the lathe chuck as a young machinist apprentice and got smacked in the chest with it when I turned the lathe on. I learned real fast not to do that again, and I never did.

LOL! I was just thinking to post such a situation as that happend to me when I was learning on the lathe in my junior year in college. However, it hit the floor and not me but I got a good bawling out by my professor! I think I did it ONCE more and then I was good. :)

[Chris Padilla]

Replace the chuck/collet with an Eliminator (http://www.infinitytools.com/products.asp?dept=1237) quick change chuck - rumblings are that the DW625 version will work on the Freud - and forget that the spindle lock even exists.

I've had one in my router table for years...no issues. What's a spindle lock? ;)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff, good to see you've kept up with the details of this thread in such a timely manner.:rolleyes:;) I think that fortunately the OP is well past that point.:cool:

Bruce

I was unaware that there was a duty to read a jillion posts.
Where is the TOU is this please?

[Fred Voorhees]

Wade, it has probably happened to a lot more of us than you would imagine. Me, sure, it has happened and it broke my heart. I have the Hitachi M12V in my router table.....my second Hitachi M12V. I did the same thing. I was changing bits and naturally, I had the spindle locked for the bit changing. Trouble was, I didn't unlock it and when I turned on the router, it hummed for just a second or so before I realized what was happening. By then, it was to late. The motor died in a plume of foul smoke and that was all she wrote. I was on the phone within a few hours ordering another Hitachi M12V. It sucked, but what are you going to do. At the least, I now ALWAYS check the spindle lock before I (A) turn the machine on ....and (B) even before I plug it in, just in case the routers on/off switch is for some reason in the on position. I chalked it up to experience and altered my shop habits a bit for the better.

[Bruce Page]

Bruce...That's exactly why they used to have everyone on the apprentice floor in GE wear hard hats. It was like playing dodge a wrench in there.

I’ll tell you what, those darned things hurt when they hit you! I was so embarrassed with my stupidity that I never told a soul about it. My upper chest/sternum area was sore for days.

[Bruce Benjamin]

I was unaware that there was a duty to read a jillion posts.
Where is the TOU is this please?

Cliff, I'm just glad you read my post and I think we both feel better because of it. ;):) I don't know what, "TOU" is so I can't really address that question. Sorry.

Bruce

[Jim Becker]

Be nice, folks...

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Dale Lesak]

Richard, you were looking over my shoulder. Just what I was thinking. What is going to keep the lock from trying to engage while your using the router.

[Tom Veatch]

The description is a bit vague. Is it for 1/2" and 1/4"? I presume it is more than just a set screw; how does it work?

The one I use on my PC7518 is for 1/2" bits. The business end works like a split collar with a hex head cap screw. Tightening the cap screw tightens the collar around the bit's shank.

I bought it because, although the router/lift at maximum elevation will allow bit changes from above the table with the stock collet, it's a little awkward to get both wrenches in position to loosen and tighten the collet. The cap screw on this device is far enough above the table at max elevation to make it very quick and easy to swap bits using only a hex wrench. Works very well.

[Rob Will]

I have 4 routers. Two PC 2 1/4 hp and two 1hp Craftsman. It is amazing that the Craftsman routers disable the power when engaged, but the more expensive PC routers do not.

Perhaps a circuit breaker appropiately sized for normal load would trip before burning the motor?

Me too Eric, I have a C-man that is about 25 years old - I paid $39.95 for it. It is starting to get noisy but you have to like the lock out feature.

Rob

[Tom Veatch]

...Perhaps a circuit breaker appropiately sized for normal load would trip before burning the motor?

I don't believe you could count on it. Reading between the lines of the OP, is sounds like the damage was done very quickly, possibly before there was time to shut off the switch. A circuit breaker will sustain a significant overload for a period of time before it trips. As a later post postulated, it was probably the control electronics that failed rather than the motor windings.

Case in point. I was measuring the amperage draw of the 5HP motor on my cyclone under various loading conditions. The FLA of the motor is just over 20amps. I had it temporarily wired into a circuit protected by a 20amp breaker for testing. Under one condition - spinning the impeller in free air - the motor was drawing a measured 44+ amps long enough for me to flip the breaker on, walk about 30 feet, measure the amperage, shake my head, take a second reading, and head back to the breaker box before the breaker tripped. Call it somewhere around 20 to 30 seconds.

Of course that wasn't a locked rotor condition like that of the OP. That conditions would have drawn a much higher current. But it is evidence that a standard residential type circuit breaker doesn't immediately trip even under serious overloads. There are time delay vs overload standards for various classes of circuit breakers - the greater the overload, the quicker the trip.

Incidentally, the motor was quite warm to the touch but did not trip its internal overtemp relay and suffered no apparent damage.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff, I'm just glad you read my post and I think we both feel better because of it. ;):) I don't know what, "TOU" is so I can't really address that question. Sorry.

Bruce

TOU = Terms Of Use it's the forum rules. And for the life of me I can't understand why you chose to be so pointlessly snotty. It's not as if I had singled you out. In fact you singled me out.

[Wade Lippman]

TOU = Terms Of Use it's the forum rules. And for the life of me I can't understand why you chose to be so pointlessly snotty. It's not as if I had singled you out. In fact you singled me out.


Hey, this is my thread, quit it! This is what PMs are for.