Tenons / Dovetails ??

[Joe D'Attilio]

I'm still gathering up some basic tools before I start my 1st project.

I'm looking to tap the expertise here. I don't want to spend $200 on 1 or 2 tools as I'm jsut starting out and although I feel dedicated to the point of tunnel vision, I do not wish to spend $1000's on tools that I may lose interest in.

My question is what are the required tools for basic mortise/tenons and dovetails(i'm looking for insight on saws. I have #3-#7 stanley bailey planes right now, so I'm not ready to jump into another plane for the tenons.) I'd like to practice tenons with saws and chisels) or if you use other methods I'm all ears.

For tool selection, I'm looking along the lines of versatility and not so much; job specific tools

What types of saws work well for tenons?
Is there a saw that can be used for crosscut and rip on tenons? Dovetails?
Are there some saws more versatile than others?
Would I be better off with a shoulder plane for tenons? chisels?


Ok any help, tips and tricks would be appreciated and sorry for rambling...

[Wilbur Pan]

I have a ryoba that I use on tenons. A ryoba is a Japanese saw that has rip teeth on one side and crosscut on the other. It's like getting two saws in one, but you may be limited a bit in terms of depth of cut, but so far I haven't run into that issue. I also have a dozuki, which is the Japanese version of a dovetail saw.

Hida Tool and Japan Woodworker carry them. The ones I have are made by Gyokucho. If you want to see the exact models I have, here is the ryoba (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=19%2E611%2E0&dept_id=13088), and here is the dozuki (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&pf_id=19%2E210%2E0&dept_id=13085).

[Pedro Reyes]

Joe,

A shoulder plane is used, among other things, to 'tune' a M&T joint by taking fine shavings from the shoulders of the tenon, so that no gap can be seen. tight shoulders provide amazing structural strangth, so it is not just aesthetics.

That said, you don't necessarily need one. If you can take the same thin shavings using a sharp chisel, and control it well (a chisel ninja if you will) then you should be able to accomplish that function. Remember the shoulder plane does help with a flat shoulder which is also perpendicular, and it lets you take very little wood at a time.

The backsaws is a bit different, rip cuts with crosscut saws are not very good unless the teeth are super fine, same holds true for the other way around. If you are going the western way, I would get both rip and crosscut. You don't need a dovetail(small) + carcass(medium) + tenon saw(large), but rather two medium ones one filed rip one xcut. You can use the medium rip to cut your tenons, you'll be limited on depth, so if you are cutting a lot of tenons over 2", then this would limit you.

Or you could go the eastern way and get a dozuki which rips well and xcuts well (limited experience here, but what I've seen, not bad). Especially if you intend to clean your shoulder lines with chisels. Or you could get a fine tooth ryoba. I'll let the Jap tool junkies chime in.

I do have 3 Lie Nielsen saws and they look oh so pretty ;), work awesome too. I also have a Veritas shoulder plane and is it a nicely designed and perfectly made tool. Didn't get them out of frustration but convenience... truth is they are very nice and that's mostly why I got them.

You should be able to do it fine with chisels and saws alone, and it would hone your chisel ninja skills.

/p

[Don C Peterson]

Back saws work best for tenons and dovetails. Generally you want a small and light back saw for dovetails and a bigger back saw for tenons, although you CAN produce perfectly good dovetails with a larger saw (I've done it with an 18" Disston). Watch on eBay or antique shops/estate sales for older Disston back saws. You can tell the good ones because they have the nicely shaped handles, the ones where the hand hole is just a plain oval are probably not the best bet...

The problem I've found with dovetail saws is that they almost always get bid up quite a bit. I finally gave up on the vintage dovetail saws and bought a LN. The 12" back saws also tend to get bid up, although if you are patient, you might be able to find a decent 12" back saw for under $20. It's kind of odd, but the longer Disston back saws (16" - 28") tend to be cheaper than the short ones, and for cutting tenons, I prefer the longer saws. I just picked up a 28" Disston back saw with a Miller's Falls miter box for under $9 (shipping was $25)

Of course with a vintage saw, you'll almost certainly need to sharpen it which involves making or buying a vise and purchasing a couple of files. It's really not that hard to do, it just takes some patience and a light touch. VintageSaws.com the DisstonianInstitute.com and a number of posts here-particularly by Bob Smalser-have great information on selecting, rehabbing and sharpening vintage saws.

[Steve Hamlin]

Hi Joe

There are many here far more experienced than I, but here's my penn'orth.

Saws
Depending on the size of tenon you want to make, a single rip cut saw may well work for both tenon cheeks & shoulders and dovetails.

I prefer western pistol/closed grip back saws, as I find them more controllable, but unless you're happy to tune a less expensive or vintage saw, then a gents saw or Japanese saw may be a better budget option while you're dipping your toe in the water. (Did I really say that?)

Chisels
Shoulder planes are nice, but with good strong marking out, chisels are more than up to the task on their own.

To limit tool requirements, and guessing you have a drill, it may be worth looking at drilling out the bulk of your mortice waste and paring to the line with normal bench chisels - (or look for an old 1/4" mortice chisel.)
There are plenty of threads here on starter bench chisels.

Marking Out Tools
You will need a square (common grade engineers squares are cheap and adjustable (hit the inside/outside corner with a punch/masonry nail)), cutting/slitting gauge, mortice gauge, knife (scalpel or exacto will do the job, though I prefer spearpoint) and sliding bevel or dovetail template/gauge/square (can make one out of a piece of aluminium angle or even plastic square conduit for starters)

Sharpening stuff
Lots of threads, again - unless you have a friendly Creeker nearby, you will probably need to start with a honing guide.

HTH
Steve

PS: Don't some people type fast :D

[Robert Rozaieski]

Joe,

For doing mortise & tenon by hand I use a 12" tenon saw (wish it was longer) filed rip about 14 PPI, a square, a marking knife, marking gauge, mortise chisel and wide bench chisel (for adjusting tenon cheeks and shoulders, I don't use a shoulder plane and I do not pare mortise cheeks).

You can use a rip saw for crosscutting tenon shoulders and dovetails, they are shallow cuts and the end grain does not show in the finished joint. Just knife a deep shoulder line before sawing. The knife line prevents torn fibers and also helps to guide the saw cut straight as the saw will "jump" into the knife line. It's actually easier and faster to just reach for the same saw which is right in front of you on the bench than to be constantly looking for the "correct" saw before making the cut. The Williamsburg shop uses only rip filed saws. Crosscut saws are useful for clean end grain cuts when the end grain will show, but they are not a necessity by any means.

For a first backsaw I would recommend a 14-16" rip filed saw, about 12-14 PPI. This saw will do tenons and dovetails just fine and can be used to crosscut shoulders as well. I recommend rip because in my experience, crosscutting with a rip saw works better than ripping with a crosscut saw. Rip teeth can be adjusted to crosscut a little easier by changing the rake angle and knifing a deep line before cutting. Get an old one and tune it up the way you want. Filing rip teeth is super easy. I can help you sharpen and set it properly to get you started with a well tuned saw.

Small dovetail saws with more PPI are nice to have for thinner (less than 1/2") stock but do not work as well in thicker stuff. The larger saw will work in thinner as well as thicker stock.

The best marking gauge I've used so far is one I recently built from plans in Popular Woodworking but the wheel gauges like the Veritas work well too. Same goes for the knife. I made mine for no cost and it works great. A simple utility razor knife will work just fine to get you started. I also use a shop made try square but a typical variety combination or try square is fine (you don't need Starrett).

For mortise chisels, I currently use the Ray Isles, but they do not develop as keen an edge as old cast steel and they are pricey. Mine were a special treat to myself but an old one will work just as well (if not better as they can be sharpened to a finer edge) and cost half as much. The 1/4" and 3/8" sizes are common as dirt.

Finally, for a bench chisel to tune tenons (I don't pare mortises), I use a 1½" or 2" to tune cheeks and face shoulders and a ½" or so to tune edge shoulders. I have never felt the need for a shoulder plane.

A wooden hand screw clamp is also helpful to hold thinner stock on edge for mortising.

Bob

P.S. - How did those oil stones that you got work out? Have you been practicing your sharpening since your visit? :D

[Bob Smalser]

A 20-dollar Shark combination saw, a few cheap butt chisels, a mortise gage, a speed or try square and awl, mallet and any drill that'll make holes for mortises will do work to the same high standard as tools costing a dozen times as much. And a Workmate and a couple sawhorses and clamps to hold the work.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70921478.jpg

The butt chisels will square up drilled mortises nicely, and used bevel-down will pare tenons to as good a fit as a shoulder plane.

It ain't the tools.

[Robert Rozaieski]

It ain't the tools.

Ain't that the truth :D!

[Don C Peterson]

I dunno, tools can make a world of difference. I tried and tried with the cheap Japanese saws to cut decent dovetails and found nothing but frustration, so I tried more expensive ones and still found nothing but frustration. As soon as I got my hands on a decent western back saw the results improved dramatically.

Maybe someone else could get decent results from those saws, but the combination of me and those Japanese saws was a disaster... Even now, I still can't saw straight with those things, but my skill and ability with western saws has improved greatly. If you are one of those people who can make just about any tool work for you, I envy you 'cause I sure ain't.

[Marcus Ward]

For a while I used a Stanley #78 to cut tenons. It took about the same amount of time as handsaw/chisel pare but they came out great and the 78 I picked up pretty cheap made me able to save my money for the stuff dedicated to the job later.

[Danny Thompson]

What Bob said. But if you are like me, you don't have the greatest luck finding quality used tools. My "kit" is shaping up as follows:

- Dozuki "Z" saw. For cutting tenons and dovetails. Well-reviewed, and currently on sale at Rockler for $35 (normally $42)
- 1/4" Mortise Chisel. For hogging out the mortise. I went with Ray Isles from www.toolsforworkingwood.com (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com) ($65). If you aren't married to doing it all neander, and you have a drill press, you can forgo the mortise chisel and do what Bob said.
- 1/4" & 1/2" Bevel-Edge Chisel. For paring the mortises, tenons, and dovetails to final dimension. I like Lie-Nielsen, but there are many good ones. ($50 each, delivered, www.craftsmanstudio.com (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com))
- Marking Guage and square. For establishing the boundaries of your mortises, tenons, and dovetails. Veritas (www.leevalley.com (http://www.leevalley.com)) has good ones.
- Mallet. Make one.

A Veritas Medium Shoulder Plane ($175) is on my wish list, but not essential.

Best of luck.

[Joe Cunningham]

And a Workmate and a couple sawhorses and clamps to hold the work.

It ain't the tools.

Phew, I was beginning to wonder reading some of these threads. I am starting out with a workmate, a single 10mm Marples chisel, a block plane and a relatively inexpensive Dozuki backsaw. So far, the practice dovetails get better and better each time I make one. The mortise and tenons aren't too bad, but I kinda cheat with a drill and doweling jig.

I think the first thing I will invest in is a better bench. Having to hook a foot around the leg so it doesn't skitter across the floor gets old rather quickly.