Copywriting your proofs?

[Daryl Barberousse]

I've been receiving alot of customer artwork and then converting the art into a logo. Once I finish the logo I submit it to the customer for approval.

QUESTION......are there any suggestions on copywriting or "proofing" the original so that the customer cannot use it?

Regards,

Daryl

[David Lavaneri]

Daryl,

There are ways to watermark a file, often included in the function of a graphics program, but one way to thwart a customer from using your artwork to take elesewhere, is NOT to provide vector artwork.

A fairly low resolution bitmap image won't do them much good.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Jack Harper]

You would need to make sure you have the rights to copyright the artwork provided to you by the client. Generally, I think it is fine to do so but only if you notify the client upfront.

I have hired companies to do design work for me expecting to own full rights only to learn they intended, but did not disclose, to grant me a license. I now use a series of license agreements I had my intellectual property rights attorney draft and require a signed copy before I commission the work. I use similar contracts when hiring artists to create original designs for my laser and waterjet art.

Again, just disclose this up front!

[Mike Null]

I believe the creator of the art has the copyright unless otherwise contracted. Is that consistent with what your attorney is saying?

[Daniel Berlin]

I believe the creator of the art has the copyright unless otherwise contracted. Is that consistent with what your attorney is saying?

Speaking as an IP Lawyer (but not your lawyer, sorry ;))
It's not whether it was necessarily contracted, but whether it is considered a work for hire:

Works Made for Hire. -- (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or (2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. (17 U.S.C. sec 101)


Works for hire are considered to be owned by the employer (which in this case would be the person who commissioned it), not by the employee.

Usually it is best to get a signed instrument just to avoid having to argue about it in court (in practice this just shifts the argument to one about the contract instead of whether it is a work for hire or not :mad:)

[Frank Corker]

I'd go for watermark it.

[Dan Hintz]

If you're worried about them using it without permission, regardless of law, you need to deter them using visible means... a visible watermark across the image is useful here. If you want to prove they're using one of your works in a court of law, you need to use an imperceptible watermark, one that date and timestamps the work so you can prove you had the original copy before them. Using a low-res jpeg (not bitmap) is a useful way to deter use of that specific image, but it won't prevent them from having a high-res copy made using the same design... don't expect to protect the design from illegal use.

[Stephen Beckham]

I go off of my old contracting days with the GOV - if the customer requests work to be done by me and labor is bid in the job as part of the requirement to do the artwork, they paid for it and it's theirs - I have no dog...

If they ask me to engrave a logo on a board but don't give specifics or laser ready artwork. Any work I do towards making that logo better or laserable, they didn't buy that artwork from me. The only thing they would have ownership of is the original low res art and the board.

This is why I offer to do artwork for free in most cases - they feel no ownership to it. I've never been asked for a copy of the artwork after the work. However - if you search through the old threads of 2006, you'll find where I had one customer that didn't want me to share my CDRs with you guys because they were his 'ideas' even though I designed them off of his paper-napkin thoughts.

[Joe Pelonio]

After getting burned once I always include a copyright statement on my proofs to customers, except for long time regulars. I also will not do them for jobs where I find out that a customer is getting for a quote and design from several of us, basically a competition. I had one that like my design but not my price and later I saw my design done by someone else. Now I only do proofs after agreeing on the price or will charge for the proofs, payable in advance.

[Doug Bergstrom]

I agree with Joe, We have designers on staff here and all of our proofs go out with a copyright on them. We have been burned in the past. The customer doesn't always understand how the ownership of the design works and will hand this over to the competition for a price. Having the copyright on there protects your investment in the job.

[Scott Shepherd]

I understand if you create something from scratch, it's your's to copywrite, but in the original question, I believe he said that the customer gave him the artwork and he converted it to a logo.

In a thread about copywriting we had recently, I thought it was agreed that you couldn't base your work on someone elses art and call it your own, no matter how you modified it.

Either people are speaking in general about logos they create from scratch, or if speaking specifically about Daryl's situation, then it's a conflict with what was said before, so I'm confused now (more so than usual).

[Dan Hintz]

In a thread about copywriting we had recently, I thought it was agreed that you couldn't base your work on someone elses art and call it your own, no matter how you modified it.
That's a very touchy area for the law. At what point can you saw a work of art is unique? Say I looked at the Mona Lisa and decided afterwards to draw a portrait of someone in my mind? What if I took the Coke logo and added in some new text? Both cases are easy enough... the first is not a problem, the second is a copyright infringement.

But what about the stuff in between? What if I look at the Quaker Oats logo (picked because I have a Quaker Oats bag sitting in front of me), change the puritan guy to another image, use the same font and colors but change the text? Not so clear-cut anymore. That's why we have courts, and those courts must decide based upon personal feeling of what the law intended rather than direct black and white, right or wrong. If I used the new logo on a toy, I might be okay, but if I used it on a breakfast product I could run into trouble.

[Joe Pelonio]

I understand if you create something from scratch, it's your's to copywrite, but in the original question, I believe he said that the customer gave him the artwork and he converted it to a logo.

In a thread about copywriting we had recently, I thought it was agreed that you couldn't base your work on someone elses art and call it your own, no matter how you modified it.

Either people are speaking in general about logos they create from scratch, or if speaking specifically about Daryl's situation, then it's a conflict with what was said before, so I'm confused now (more so than usual).

One example is creating a logo for a customer, in the case where they want a sign or vehicle lettered with a logo but do not have one. Another case is where a company such as Coke gives me their logo to do a sign, but the sign involves more than just the logo. The logo remains their property, but the design of the rest of the sign including the location of their logo is owned by me.

[Scott Shepherd]

Yes, but Daryl specifically says he's converting their art work to a logo.

Based on previous discussions, then he owns nothing, in my opinion.

I understand if you create something from scratch, but he's not creating it from scratch, he's converting their art work.

[Joe Pelonio]

Maybe we need clarification from him on what he's actually doing. What artwork are they giving him, if it's not a logo? Perhaps they are simply giving him the text that needs to be included, such as phone number, website and tag line. If so, that's not their design, just their copy. When he turns it into a logo it's his property.

If they give him a clipart image, say a tree, that they want included in a logo for their landscaping service, then it's the same as my coke example above.

[Daniel Berlin]

I understand if you create something from scratch, it's your's to copywrite, but in the original question, I believe he said that the customer gave him the artwork and he converted it to a logo.

In a thread about copywriting we had recently, I thought it was agreed that you couldn't base your work on someone elses art and call it your own, no matter how you modified it.


This would be incorrect.
To the degree your changes to their work are creative and original, they are copyrightable over the original work.
The copyright would be pretty weak (IE you obviously couldn't sue someone for reproducing the original work, only your changed work), but it is still there.

Also note that creating derivative works (works based on other works) is itself one of the protected rights of copyright, so you need permission to be doing it (though this permission can be implied by them giving you the work, etc).

Copyright quickly becomes nuanced and tricky for anything but books, which is what it was originally intended to protect (Copyright is a lot newer than most people believe, and it's original purpose was to protect authors from publishers, who now had the printing press)

[James Jaragosky]

Just do not give them the vector file, someone else mentioned that in a earlier post.
you can not completely protect yourself in these matters, someone will eventually use your hard work and shop it around.
even if you have done everything legally possible to protect your work, can you afforded the expense to protect your work?
the laws were written to protect the common man from the wealthy and powerful but this seems to have been turned around over time.
Take heart in the fact that you do quality work and deliver outstanding customer service, that in it's self should protect you from most companies shopping around your hard work. That and the low res bmp image you have given them.
jim j.

[Joe Pelonio]

Just do not give them the vector file, someone else mentioned that in a earlier post.

jim j.
That's what I do, I will convert to a bitmap, then import it into a Word file, with the quote and any other notes. A good graphics person at another shop could still copy the design from scratch though, or paste it into a graphics program and trace back to vector, thereby stealing your work and making extra money for their time.

I have had people give me designs for signs that appeared to have been from other places. I discuss it with them and require them to convince me that it's their design and not from another sign shop.

One even had the other shop's copyright on it when they sent it to me. That one I actually called the other place and reported it to them, and of course refused to do the job with that design.

[Jack Harper]

The bottom line in all this is "upfront communication". So long as you communicate with your prospective client, preferably both oral and written, you will allay many many problems. Even if the original art is owned by the client, if they agree contractually, that the derivative of any modifications/enhancements made by you, will be owned by you and subsequently licensed to them, then you will be reasonably protected. I say reasonably because that is as good as it can ever get until a jury of your piers decide what is reasonable.

Also, remember that putting your policy on the wall or on the back of a work order is NOT communicating. You need to point out your policy and maybe have them initial it on the work order. This part is not about being technically or legally right, it is about customer service.

One more approach to throw out there is to offer the client a choice of paying for and owning the design work or agree to the license for the free mock up approach. This lets the client realize the value in what you do and that in the end they are getting a lot more that a lazed image in something.

[Benedict Roussos]

Never send as sample a vector file. And use a watermark over the graphic as luckyoliver or flick photo sites

[Daryl Barberousse]

Thanks for the comments everyone. Boy, did I stir the pot!

To combine everyones comment(s) into general terms:

1. Be up front with the customer.
2. Cover your butt.
3. Protect your work (ie watermark)
4. Use common sense.

Thanks to all for your advice.

Daryl

[Bill Cunningham]

If they want a hard copy to show someone, having been burnt in the past when I was much more Naive, now all 'hard copies' are in non-repo blue .. This is a very light blue that will not copy, scan, or reproduce well enough to be used for anything, but can still be seen.. Email? use the smallest 75 dpi .jpg you can get away with..

[Daryl Barberousse]

Thanks Bill.....that makes a lot of sense too. Most of my proofs are black and white.

[Barbara Buhse]

I had a customer give me a photograph of the high school gym floor and I vectorized the logo from there (not an easy feat, its an indian head with a bunch of little "pieces"). The embroidery/imprinter guy who was doing their t-shirts and uniforms would not let them have the digital logo for me to use (I wanted it for signs, not clothing). So, I took the photo and vectorized it, charged them a small fee once, and then gave it to them to use freely. Needless to say, I get lots of work from them. The embroidery guy... well, they don't use him anymore.

[Garry McKinney]

If you have photograve this is a great use for the simulation. It also copies the file to your computer leaving a paper trail , dates and information to the design , then print out the details , now you have both a ditial copy and hard copy also a great bmp, or jpeg to give to the customer. Protecting your work , how it was introduced and the customer name if you wish to add it.

[Dan Hintz]

If you have photograve this is a great use for the simulation. It also copies the file to your computer leaving a paper trail , dates and information to the design , then print out the details , now you have both a ditial copy and hard copy also a great bmp, or jpeg to give to the customer. Protecting your work , how it was introduced and the customer name if you wish to add it.
Do not count on a date/timestamp of a file to hold up in a court of law... they're easily faked/modified. You must watermark an image to do this, and even then you have to compare your digital copy to another digital copy... if they print it out and have someone recreate it, you're hosed.

[Dee Gallo]

As a commercial artist, I have designed many logos. Customers commonly bring you sketches they have done themselves, which are NOT logos or art, just idea scratchings on paper - not covered by copyright law. Sometimes they bring you clipart or art which they obviously did not do themselves. The simplest way to get around this is to design something similar but of your own style and design, distinctly different, which is what you would do with their personal sketches anyway.

Unless clipart or photos or artwork are labeled "copyright free", you should assume it is owned by someone.

If you are not a logo designer and you are just asked to reproduce something for a customer, you should ask if they own it, but ultimately it is their responsibility to prove ownership if they intend to profit from it. This is the case with things like Visa logos on signs - they should be licensed to use the logo. It is also illegal to alter someone else's copyright without permission (drug-addicted Donald Ducks on T-shirts come to mind).

It is common practice for printers to require a customer to provide "camera-ready art" for jobs they do, and engravers should feel free to do the same. Otherwise, the design job is a separate skill and you should charge for it. I generally charge $300 to design a logo for a small local business, more for a larger corporation. This includes designing 3 options, one final design, 2-color comps, camera-ready art and work-for-hire agreement (pay once, you own it) so they can use it as they wish. Even if you want to do it for free (church, local village, scouts), you should include a work-for-hire agreement.

Remember - the guy who designed the Playboy bunny logo took the $10,000 one time fee instead of royalties - was it worth it? The guy who designed the Smiley Face never registered it, never profited from it and WalMart took it for nothing years later.