Inter-Site Etiquet?

[George Guadiane]

I visit a number of turning sites. A lot of people (including me) post pictures on many/most of the ones that I go to.
Each site seems to have it's own feel when posting replies to those items posted... Including this one where, as it has been noted before, where there are not many comments at all.
What to do? When I like a piece, I am tempted to say so, across the net, but I'm sure it would sound like hero worship or something, that's not what I want, and someone asked for "critique" on a site and I pointed out what I thought was a variation that might have improved the piece (IMO) and I could feel the "room" go cold from subsequent posts, like it was wrong to actually give a real opinion...
My question is how do those of you who go to more than one site handle these issues, if you even think of this kind of thing, and for those of you who only visit one site, what do you think - and why are you not visiting other sites?

[Curt Fuller]

George, I do a lot more looking than posting. But when I do post something I usually put it on about 4 or 5 of my favorite turning sites. However, when I post a comment about someone else's work I usually limit it to one site, the one I saw it on first. Don't know why, I guess for me it just seems redundant to post the same comment several times.

[Jim Becker]

If someone asks for comments/critique, I see absolutely no reason to even have one iota of regret in providing the same if I have something I perceive as useful to contribute. If that bothers others, then I can only assume they missed the request by the OP for such comments/critique.

I do, however, feel that one must exercise tact when making such commentary. When expressing critique, it's also important to provide details that are helpful not just to explain your thoughts, but if you can, suggestions on what/how to make a change or develop things.

As to multi-site situations, I go by the convention of the particular site I'm visiting. But as I only really visit SMC and WoW relative to turning, the same general rules for critique are in place so that makes it easy.

[robert hainstock]

It is mostly a matter of time with me. I just do not want to spend that much time surfing the net. One other site I signed up for gave me a grammer lesson. I haven't been back. To me this is about sharing Ideas and not grade school. I am 71 years old, and the time I hve left is to valuable to waste on grade school grammer and etiquite. I find the Creekers to be friendly, warm, inviting, Etc. Other sites seem to be cliquey, too far out, and mostly a waste of my time.:eek::eek::eek:
Bob

[Jim Underwood]

There was a post made a few months ago that did an excellent job of outlining the proper nature of a critique. I suggest we review it, and try to follow that outline.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56171

[Mike Vickery]

If they asked for a critique and the piece is close but I have something I would change I tell them. If I can't see the piece because the photo is so bad or taken at to high an angle where you can't see the form I just move on.
If the piece just has way to much wrong with it for me to get into it I move on.

The way I look at it is we are all adults if they ask for a critique they should be willing to take it. If people want to get pissed that is fine, I am not interested in my popularity to much. If I critique a piece it meens their is somethng their that I do really like, or else I wold not have said anything.

No I am not a snob or anything I just think if the piece is a total mess the turner just is not ready for a real critique yet they need ata boys more then anything and I will not say I like a piece if I don't.

[Raymond Overman]

I am 71 years old, and the time I hve left is to valuable to waste on grade school grammer and etiquite.
Bob

Bob,

The words are spelled grammar and etiquette. :cool: ...just joking. I had the same experience a while back when I rebutted a comment during an Internet debate (argument) where the poster wanted to critique my spelling rather than actually speaking toward the discussion. It's just the way it is on the Internet.

Being at least a reader on three different boards, I tend to try to comment honestly but tactfully. I've found the best critique method is to "sandwich" negatives between positives and encouragement and to try to approximate the turner's skill set into the equation.

I agree and only comment on the item on one board. I also realize there are a lot of watchers.

[David Wilhelm]

To me looking at pictures online leaves to many "what ifs" You take the words left by the poster, make the best you can from what you can see and post your comment. I do not have a camera set up. I'm often seeking someone to take a picture for me here or there. Honestly it's not a tool I seek. I'd rather have another woodworking tool aposed to a camera but that's just me. It makes me feel left out in the posting area sometimes. I think each piece is turned in the eye of the turner doing the work. He doesn't part it off until he's pleased. If his market is for gift or sale and the end result is also pleasing thats all that matters.

[Steve Schlumpf]

George

I visit multiple sites, belong to 3 but only post in 2. The main reason I joined SMC and continue to be an active member is because everyone is willing to assist all the new turners. Everyone offers suggestions, techniques, videos, books, etc as well as ideas on how a turner could improve the form, finish or photography. While encouragement works well for those just starting out it does leave a gap for those folks with experience who, when requesting a critique, only receive fluff in response. I have requested critiques in the past and found that while I appreciate all the comments, I do place greater weight on certain individuals, who are more experienced than I, and are truely giving me the benefit of their knowledge.

[Paul Andrews]

Everything in life is a learning experience. And one of the best ways to learn is from the input of your peers. If I ask for a critique of a piece or a particular portion of the piece, I expect to receive honest answers. With that said, I will also consider the source of the critique and their experience/talent.

[Barry Elder]

George,

I visit many sites (sight is eyesight, Har!Har! a little humor) but will only make a comment on things that I like. I really don't have enough knowledge to "critique" someone else's turnings. But some of the sites I visit, there seems to be a group of people that are very free with attaboys, even if the turning is in pieces. That gives the new turner no offering of improvement or learning techniques. And yes, I understand your feeling of coldness after offering an honest critique. I feel that many new turners don't understand the techniques that the more advanced turners use, even when you try to explain said techniques to them. We have recently received our Charter from the AAW and while we have a small club, we are indeed fortunate in having some very talented carver/turners with many years of experience who have workshops for the club on Saturdays at their own expense and teach all of us relative newbies anything we want to learn. Unfortunately it doesn't work the same way over the internet. And your turnings are outstanding!!! Keep turning and learning!

[Bernie Weishapl]

I feel like Robert and George. I used to be signed up on 5 forums trying to learn everything I could. Like Robert on one I got chastised for grammer and not using the right terms for piece of equipment. I now only post on two. One I won't go back to because like George I made a comment about I really didn't care for something on a vase I think. Something like the vase looked great and the collar with contrasting wood looked good but if it were me I probably would have left the foot off. I posted a couple of times with pictures and not one answer or anything. I posted a question and not one answer. This is something that for this site shocked me. So I don't see a need to waste my time with people that act worse that little children. I am 61 yrs old and don't need that kind of stuff. Life is to short.

I do feel if you ask for a critique then take it and learn. If it makes you mad and you don't like what is being said then don't ask.

[Dave Stoler]

When I post a pic I really appreciate honesty. I will not get better or grow as a turner if I cannot take honest replies.

[Roy Hatch]

George, I don't know of anyone who could offer criticism and not offend someone. If you have a constructive suggestion, feel free to make it. But don't expect approval from everyone.

Years ago I heard someone say, "Jesus Christ didn't please everyone when he was here. How could I possibly hope to?"

Roy

[Bill Stevener]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=41337

[Bill Embrey]

I'm with Mr. Stoler... I post pics to get comments, good or bad... If someone doesn't tell me it's bad, how am I supposed to know? Along with that though, I feel if you respond to something that you think is "wrong" or could be improved, please elaborate... tell what you would do different and why.

[Ron Dunn]

I post in three woodwork forums, but never post the same in more than one forum.

If I want to start a topic I choose the forum in which I think I'll get the best response. Only in the rare event that I don't get a satisfactory reply in one forum will I raise the same topic in another. I think I've done it twice in three years.

If I see someone post the exact same topic in more than one forum I think "attention-whore" and move on.

[George Guadiane]

I post in three woodwork forums, but never post the same in more than one forum.

If I want to start a topic I choose the forum in which I think I'll get the best response. Only in the rare event that I don't get a satisfactory reply in one forum will I raise the same topic in another. I think I've done it twice in three years.

If I see someone post the exact same topic in more than one forum I think "attention-whore" and move on.
There have been a lot of interesting posts, with a lot of information to consider...
I will try and respond to all of it tomorrow, but I wanted to jump in on this one briefly because it would appear that I am one of those attention whores.
I wouldn't have seen it that way, so let me give another perspective (mine) on why I have posted the same thing on several sites:
On each site I have gotten no or little response, I sometimes get no comments at all, that isn't much help. On some sites I get nothing but attaboy, no matter what I post... That really isn't much help either. I started posting on WoW recently, unsure of how I would be received, but assuming that it would be "more of the same." NOT!
To the contrary, one guy said if your serious take a different picture angle. I did, he gave a considered earnest and insightful reply.
He actually helped me. Because of what he saw, I was able to see a flat spot in my outline... Now that I can see it, I can fix it in future pieces... BIG help!!!
I posted the exact same images on other sights and got LOTS of attaboy. I don't think that the people looking can't see the "error," I think they are just nice people trying to be supportive. If I didn't want to know, I wouldn't ask.

I post on more than one site with the same pictures/topics for two reasons:

I'm trying to get some insight into what moves people and why - and how to get better.
With the assumption that not everyone goes to every site, in order to get that one "magic" opinion, I have to show the piece to the wizard who can help me. I don't know how to find the wizard so I try to let the wizard find me.Don't misunderstand, I like to have my work admired - write me a check, that's MY kind of admiration. I'm really only looking to learn, and for ways to get better at my turning.

[Hilel Salomon]

I'm not good enough to critique a turning piece, but in my area of expertise, I certainly have come across people who ask for honest criticism but only want praise. When I sense that, I merely supply soft praise. As a China expert, I used to have to deal with Chinese officials who would say that America was so modern and they were so backward that they needed "frank criticism, so that they could improve." That was just a formula and I would answer with another formula... "We have so many areas where our countries can help each other."
I do think that when creekers identify themselves as beginners, they should receive mostly praise and encouragement, with very mildly worded hints at improvement.
Frankly, most of the bowls I see on this forum are great and much better than the mediocrity I produce, but one day I'll muster the courage to post some pics, only to prove that I do work at the lathe.
Hilel.

[Dean Thomas]

Critiques are hard things. Hard to ask for honest opinions, hard to do honestly but tactfully and tastefully, and often hard to receive, no matter how kind the giver has been.

Mama said, "If ya can't say something nice, don't say nuthin'!" Mama was pretty wise. I should call her tonight... sorry, bunny trail.

Sometimes, I see something that strikes my fancy and have to give an attaboy. It could be shape, finish, wood use, attention to some detail, good photography, heck, it could be any number of things. If someone has specifically asked for input and I see something that might be helpful, I may share it depending on what others have said, how that person has reacted in the past (in my own experience, obviously), or after deciding on just how much critiqueing I think the person is up for and how much I would like to talk to the piece.

I always try to overemphasize that we're talking ONE MAN'S OPINIONS and THIS MAN'S TASTE & PREFERENCES so that the receiver should understand that it's a thought based on those things. Now, on the one comment here by George talking about someone seeing a flat spot in his curve. If George was talking about his project's curves and I saw a flat spot, I'd probably try to camoflage my comment and sidle up to the issue: "George, it may be the photography, but it looks a little like there might be a little area there on the shoulder that is not part of the curve. Was that intention? Could it be enhanced by mirroring that on the under side of the curve? And again, it might just me being fooled by the angle or the light..."

And sometimes, it's just plain hard to dance around something that jumps out at you, as did that flat to the person who pointed it out for George.

The other thing is that if you have something that you think might be a harder comment, apologize profusely, point out that it's MY OPINION ONLY and send the post OFF FORUM for the person before you post it publically for the record. If the person does NOT want that hard a comment, give them the choice.

Again, ONE MAN'S THOUGHTS on a tender subject.

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

Evenin' George.

I usually add the tag line "Just My Opinion" to suggestions and opinions. That way people don't have to agree with my position. If they don't, that is their perogative. I don't dwell on the comments of some people, while I will seriously look at differing points of view presented in a positive way.

By the way, If anyone asks for a Critique, they should be willing to accept constructive criticism.

Bruce

[George Guadiane]

George, I do a lot more looking than posting. But when I do post something I usually put it on about 4 or 5 of my favorite turning sites. However, when I post a comment about someone else's work I usually limit it to one site, the one I saw it on first. Don't know why, I guess for me it just seems redundant to post the same comment several times.
That's what I do too, I just wondered if I had it right.

[George Guadiane]

George, I don't know of anyone who could offer criticism and not offend someone. If you have a constructive suggestion, feel free to make it. But don't expect approval from everyone.

Years ago I heard someone say, "Jesus Christ didn't please everyone when he was here. How could I possibly hope to?"

Roy
Now THOSE are words to live by!

[George Guadiane]

I'm not good enough to critique a turning piece, but in my area of expertise, I certainly have come across people who ask for honest criticism but only want praise. When I sense that, I merely supply soft praise. As a China expert, I used to have to deal with Chinese officials who would say that America was so modern and they were so backward that they needed "frank criticism, so that they could improve." That was just a formula and I would answer with another formula... "We have so many areas where our countries can help each other."
I do think that when creekers identify themselves as beginners, they should receive mostly praise and encouragement, with very mildly worded hints at improvement.
Frankly, most of the bowls I see on this forum are great and much better than the mediocrity I produce, but one day I'll muster the courage to post some pics, only to prove that I do work at the lathe.
Hilel.

Hilel,
Perhaps just use the word comment instead, anyone can comment on what they like, and we don't have to experts or "better" than the turner we are commenting on (IMHO).

[Hilel Salomon]

David, Your right about commenting on one's own taste. By critique, I didn't mean criticism, but rather constructive advice. Nevertheless, I'm too lousy a turner to provide any valuable advice. Now when it comes to buying tools.... Kidding aside, I noticed , when I lived in NY city, that no one ever listens to an argument that starts out with "you're wrong," or "how the h.ll can you think that" etc. People do listen when someone says "Good Point!!! but let me add......." Anyway, I've coached kids' basketball, and stayed very close to my grandkids, and I like giving words of encouragement. I've had DI's who couldn't spell encouragement much less give it, bosses who thought that a nice word would diminish them, and they didn't make a better man of me. The encouragement did... hopefully....
Regards, Hilel.

[Cody Colston]

I only post pics of my work on two forums, generally. There's one forum I post pics on just to be contributing in an effort to keep the "Turning" segment viable...it doesn't get a lot of traffic. The other forum, I post on because I enjoy the comments from the turners there who are a lot better than I.

I don't ask for critique because if a piece pleases me, who else is there to please? I only do this for a hobby and besides, some of the critiques I've read come across like a fellow redneck trying to sound all artsy-fartsy. ;)

I read a lot of the forums and often see the same post in all of them. If I coment at all, it's usually on one forum only.

[Bill Wyko]

One thing that should be considered is the idea that an opinion is just that, an opinion. As the poster, one should not be offended by an idea that is not shared by others. This will allow one to see their work through the eyes of others (without poking them out with a stick.):D. The idea is to get a general consensus of opinions. I look at it this way, if someone doesn't like my work then thanks for their input and it'll look fine in my house.:eek:

[Christopher K. Hartley]

Picture yourself standing at the lathe next to someone you are coaching on how to turn a particular object with the best result. The student holds the tool with the wrong attitude and thus the end product is not a desirable or acceptable one. Do you coach them through the process in hopes they get better or just pamper them so their feelings don't get hurt?(most generally not the problem of the turner but the problem of the person trying to coach) If someone asks for help. for heaven sake be honest with them and yourself and help them get better not worse. Sometimes this is not the best platform for clear critiques but we should do the best we can under the circumstances. It isn't those who protect our feelings that are remembered and appreciated but rather those who care enough for us to set us on the correct path and do it with grace. We can help people become better and they will be grateful in the end. George forgive me for straying somewhat from your original question, I just felt this needed to be said.:)