Opinions needed on potential table saw purchase

[JT Chrstianson]

Hello all...

I've been looking for a time on craigslist and elsewhere for a table saw, as I don't have one... this'll be my first. Anyhow, I came across a vintage '66 Powermatic that has been refurbished by the current owner. The top and bottom of the table have been machined flat, there are new bearings in the arbor, and it comes with a new Powermatic fence, 30" and 50" rails, a new miter square and an extension table.

All this for a cool $1,000.

Here are some pics. Just croll down to the bottom of the woodworking photos to see the saw: http://picasaweb.google.com/dohcfox/WoodworkingProjects

The catch is that the saw has a 3 phase motor which I would have to replace with a single phase (duh!). So that could potentially run me another $200-$400 I figure.

The saw has been used in a cabinet shop for the last 4 years and was only replaced because the owners wanted a Sawstop. Is this a deal or am I looking at a potential money pit?

Thanks in advance!

JT Christianson

[Bruce Wrenn]

So you are looking at $1300-$1400 for a used PM-66 in good shape. What are you waiting for. The PM-66 that I worked on for a friend used a NEMA 56-C motor. This is a fairly common type of motor, just most will come with a base mounting plate, which the PM-66 doesn't use. Cheapest NEMA 56- C motor I know of is a pressure washer motor from Northern Tools.

[Mike Heidrick]

I have seen PM66's new on amazon recently with free freight ship and many states have no tax with amazon - all for $1999. Just for perspective. That would include a warranty as well.

[Steven Wilson]

It shouldn't be a money pit. You'll need to replace the motor and possibly the switch (or change heaters). Or you could remove the switch and add a VFD to switch from 1phase to 3phase. As long as the inner workings of the saw are sound (bearings) you won't need to do any other work to it.

[Mike Heidrick]

Arcola IL has an Amish outlet that sells PM motors as well.

[JT Chrstianson]

This sounds like a good deal then? The motor should not be an issue from what I read. I am nervous about this as it is my first table saw...


JT

[Steven Wilson]

It's a fair deal but you will need to do some work. If you're comfortable doing the work then have fun. You should look at the saw and check to see that the arbor bearings are still good.

[JT Chrstianson]

It's a fair deal but you will need to do some work. If you're comfortable doing the work then have fun. You should look at the saw and check to see that the arbor bearings are still good.

I was told by the current owner that he replaced the arbor bearings and I would enjoy 'tweeking' my new tablesaw. :)

[Fred Woodward]

Not a bad deal I would say. You will need to deal with the 3 phase but that should not be a show stopper. Replacing the arbor bearings is a snap on that saw, just make sure to take some pictures of the setup on the arbor and make some measurements on the blade distance to the miter slot before you remove the table top. The only other bearings in the saw are the motor and those too are relatively easy to change out and not too expensive.
What year make is the saw? You can tell from the s/n. The color, if it is original, suggests a 70's vintage saw. The dust door on the front has been replaced as that isn't the original handle on it. That is a very solid saw, replacement parts are available new for most of the parts though the threads may have changed to metric, not really a big deal.
You can find all the info you want on that saw and good advice on the 3 phase at Old Wood Working Machines.org.
You'll love that saw compared to the contractor saw you are using now. I would make the move and never look back. I did just that recently with a PM66.
It's not a GREAT deal but it is a good deal that that saw is probably built better than the new saws today, IMHO. Resale on that saw is very good and you should do no worse than break even if you decide to sell it. If you could talk them down to ~$750 or so, it would be a much better deal and you could do the phase converter for a couple hundred but $1000 is OK deal.

[John Thompson]

Ditto Fred's comments. With the switch-out, even if in excellent condition, I wouldn't go more than $850 for the saw. But.. we all have different ways we can spend our time..

Good luck...

Sarge..

[Chris Rosenberger]

That saw is of 1960s vintage. It looks like part of the main trunion has been replaced because on some of the pictures it looks like it is gold color. It looks like a very nice saw though.

[JT Chrstianson]

Great advice everyone. I did try to get the guy to go down to $800 but no go. The seller originally wanted $1,200! So $1,000 was as the best deal I could get from him. I am told that this saw was made in 1966.

JT

[Victor Stearns]

PM66! $1000! GO Man GO
Get the saw. Even if you have to "tweak" the saw, you will gain valuable knowledge about the saw. Some of my best workshop time, not making a specific project, is in tweaking my machines.
Let us know when you get it.
Good Luck
Victor

[Fred Woodward]

That really isn't a terrible deal (2 sets of rails, new fence, fresh ground tables, and 1 extension (you didn't specify which and what kind of extension). The CI extension is about $400+.
It does look like the trunnion has been replaced. Wonder when and why. Those are just about impossible to break in using the saw....not so if you drop it when you are trying to rebuild the saw.
Still, while not all original parts it looks like an OK deal. Price out those rails and see what kind of extension is included. If it's a cast iron extension that's not too bad.
You can easily sell the 50" rails if you don't intend to run that large (those rails are about 6' long).
I just recently purchased a '83 PM66 (1 phase) for $750 on CL. Needed to replace the bearing arm for a broken casting (~$80). New bearings for arbor and motor (~$40). New 30" PM rail set off of fleabay ($125) New Bies fence ($200). Lots of sweat in cleaning it all up and repainting. It really adds up quickly.
Was it worth it? Oh yeah.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/fishinnut50/Dayone.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/fishinnut50/0127082.jpg

[Chris Rosenberger]

Very nice job Fred. Great looking saw.

[M Toupin]

I'll take a different tack from Fred. My gut feeling is t's a newer saw, 1982 to 1993 or so, with a pea green paint job. I too find it strange to change out the guts on a 66 unless there was a really bad accident along the way. I can't understand why he didn't paint the entire saw either, but that's just me.

I'm more concerned with the statement:


The top and bottom of the table have been machined flat,

Something smells funny... I can see machining a table top, but there's NO reasonable explanation to machine a bottom of a top. Besides, the only viable way to machine a table that size is with a Blanchard grinder. There's very few places that can handle tables that size and they charge accordingly. Unless there was a major flaw, nobody in their right mind would even consider it. In short, I think the guy is blowing smoke, my opinion obviously. Ask to see a machine shop receipt.

I'd be cautious, find out what's the real born on date, the trunnion color and box color don't coincide. The box is obviously newly painted, might or might not be true to form. The trunnion doesn't appear repainted, why? Is it original? If not, why not? Not that any of this is a fatal flaw, it just might lead you to more work than you anticipated such as replacing bearings that never were. I'd consider fair value accordingly though.

The 3ph motor is really not that big a deal. A VFD, RPC or motor swap will all fix that for about the same cost.

Mike

Almost forgot, Fred, that's a heck of a restore! nice, very nice!

[Fred Woodward]

I'll take a different tack from Fred. My gut feeling is t's a newer saw, 1982 to 1993 or so, with a pea green paint job. I too find it strange to change out the guts on a 66 unless there was a really bad accident along the way. I can't understand why he didn't paint the entire saw either, but that's just me.

I'm more concerned with the statement:



Something smells funny... I can see machining a table top, but there's NO reasonable explanation to machine a bottom of a top. Besides, the only viable way to machine a table that size is with a Blanchard grinder. There's very few places that can handle tables that size and they charge accordingly. Unless there was a major flaw, nobody in their right mind would even consider it. In short, I think the guy is blowing smoke, my opinion obviously. Ask to see a machine shop receipt.

I'd be cautious, find out what's the real born on date, the trunnion color and box color don't coincide. The box is obviously newly painted, might or might not be true to form. The trunnion doesn't appear repainted, why? Is it original? If not, why not? Not that any of this is a fatal flaw, it just might lead you to more work than you anticipated such as replacing bearings that never were. I'd consider fair value accordingly though.

The 3ph motor is really not that big a deal. A VFD, RPC or motor swap will all fix that for about the same cost.

Mike

Almost forgot, Fred, that's a heck of a restore! nice, very nice!

Thanks for the compliment. It was a lot of fun and a very good learning experience.
I was wondering about the bottom machining too. I've never heard of anyone doing that. There are a couple of spots that are machined on the bottom of those tables though. The pictures do look like a Blanchard grind to me and I would think there might be several places in an area like Seattle that would be able to do that. That table grind usually runs ~$100+ per.
The dust door is from a newer machine, the motor cover appears older (not plastic as now), the handwheels and lock knobs are old style. I would guess this was a project saw and made from some older and some newer parts with an older cabinet.
I would look at the arbor and the arbor sheave to guage vintage of that area. Two belt system is new style for the sheave.
I'm thinking this guy bought this saw, 3 phase, rode hard, on the cheaps (check the auctions); put some money into fixing it up to more modern standards (the fence and rails) and is trying to get it all back. It definitely isn't a $1200 saw IMHO for a home shop, as is.
If it were me, I would closely inspect the inside of the saw.
That trunnion swap isn't cheap. Most common failure is the end teeth on the gear for angle adjust get broken off. If the trunnion was dropped when he was rebuilding it shatters pretty easily.
I definitely agree, it's a mixed bag of parts but that alone wouldn't make me walk away from it. I would ask lots of questions, plan on replacing the bearings just because you know for sure it has been done, that's cheap and proactive for a long life and good cutting.

I've seen lots of the older PM66s 3 phase, older rail and fences go for $300-400 in auctions. Add another $400 to restore it and there you go.
I would have given it a matching paint job though.

[Tim Morton]

If it were me i think I would personally pass....but I will also add that I have a 80's vintage PM66 at work and it is the smoothest TS I have ever used.

But by the time you add a motor you will be looking at about 1400 bucks for a saw that is obviously not original. I think you can do better....

[Richard Dragin]

I can see machining a table top, but there's NO reasonable explanation to machine a bottom of a top.

If it was blanchard ground (which it appears to have been) than wouldn't the bottom mounting feet have been ground a bit from sitting on the table? From when I worked at a place that had really big blanchard grinders I recall a bottom table moving and the top stones move as well. Even if the saw table was secured there would have been a little movement on the bottom. It was a long time ago and there are probably a lot of differant grinders but that could explain why the seller feels it was ground on both sides.

[john frank]

Great looking restoration.

[M Toupin]

If it was blanchard ground (which it appears to have been) than wouldn't the bottom mounting feet have been ground a bit from sitting on the table? From when I worked at a place that had really big blanchard grinders I recall a bottom table moving and the top stones move as well. Even if the saw table was secured there would have been a little movement on the bottom. It was a long time ago and there are probably a lot of differant grinders but that could explain why the seller feels it was ground on both sides.

The table of a blanchard grinder does move, though the item being ground is secured to it, it doesn't float freely. Like any machine work the item being machined needs to be secured. This requires some sort of jig to keep the table top reasonably close to the original plane. It's a lot more involved than just throwing the top onto the table and starting the grinder. In short, no, the bottom would not get ground unless it was purposefully setup for grinding.

Mike

[JT Chrstianson]

I'll take a different tack from Fred. My gut feeling is t's a newer saw, 1982 to 1993 or so, with a pea green paint job. I too find it strange to change out the guts on a 66 unless there was a really bad accident along the way. I can't understand why he didn't paint the entire saw either, but that's just me.

I'm more concerned with the statement:



Something smells funny... I can see machining a table top, but there's NO reasonable explanation to machine a bottom of a top. Besides, the only viable way to machine a table that size is with a Blanchard grinder. There's very few places that can handle tables that size and they charge accordingly. Unless there was a major flaw, nobody in their right mind would even consider it. In short, I think the guy is blowing smoke, my opinion obviously. Ask to see a machine shop receipt.

I'd be cautious, find out what's the real born on date, the trunnion color and box color don't coincide. The box is obviously newly painted, might or might not be true to form. The trunnion doesn't appear repainted, why? Is it original? If not, why not? Not that any of this is a fatal flaw, it just might lead you to more work than you anticipated such as replacing bearings that never were. I'd consider fair value accordingly though.

The 3ph motor is really not that big a deal. A VFD, RPC or motor swap will all fix that for about the same cost.

Mike

Almost forgot, Fred, that's a heck of a restore! nice, very nice!

Great points for sure. That's why I posted here in the first place! For that, I thank you all.

From what I was told by the seller, the bottom of the table was machined first as a reference for machining the top. Regarding the color of the base, again, I was told by the seller that he repainted the box with what he believed to be the original color. He also said that he replaced the bearings in the arbor. There is some speculation as to the origin of the color of the trunnion and that is that the trunnion was actually spray painted gold. I'd have to take it apart and inspect it to see if that is so...

There are 3 belts on the drive portion of the saw.

JT

[Jim Heffner]

Fred, I think that price is a little high from where I see it. Sounds more like a $700-$800 saw, especially with the added expense of having to
change out that motor, another $300-400 added to the total. You said something about new bearings, so what? They aren't that expensive anyway...it is the labor to remove and install them that makes them
expensive or so it seems.

I would try and haggle with on the price...if he is set on the price and won't budge...walk, and let him keep it! They always told me " money
talks, bull s*** walks." Don't be sold on the very first one!

[JT Chrstianson]

The deal breaker has finally arrived... I have looked high and low for a motor that will work with this saw and can find nothing that costs less than around $400. That would put the price of the saw at around $1,500, plus switch gear. Are there any other leads out there on less expensive motors or other alternatives before I bail on this saw? :(

Take care,

JT

[Scott Donley]

There has been a PM 66, 3HP 1PH on Seattle CL for 950 the last couple of days. Also A 3HP1PH Uni or PM motor (I forget) for 235 also on CL.

Just checked and could not find the 66, it was there this morning, honest !

[JT Chrstianson]

I've found a couple of motors here and there. Comments?

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-3-HP-Leeson-3450-56C-TEFC-1-Phase-Electric-Motor_W0QQitemZ230210979077QQihZ013QQcategoryZ2622 6QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247Q QcmdZViewItem

http://www.amazon.com/3450RPM-C-Face-Baldor-Electric-VL1323A/dp/B000APSAQ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1202396618&sr=1-1

JT

[Jim Solomon]

Nice saw Fred. I know what you mean about the looooong fence rails. Mine came with them, but I don't cut enough sheet goods to justify the space taken. On the other hand. I can mount my router on the extension table and do away with my router cabinet. Too bad you don't live in Pa. JT. My friend has a PM66 (green) with the ci extension tables. 1 1/2 hp for 900.00. It's a nice saw smooth and tight.
Jim

[CPeter James]

I bought this one used for $1,000. It came with the big table that surrounds it and the little cabinet to store blades ect. The sliding table and blade guard were NOT in the deal. Thesaw was was in good to very good condition. It is a '92 vintage and I bought it 3 years ago.

http://home.metrocast.net/~cpjvkj/pm66.jpg

CPeter

[JT Chrstianson]

I emailed the seller of the saw about the cost of a replacement motor. Hopefully he will realize why no one has bought it yet and drop the price down to a more reasonable $700-$800 bucks.

[Eric Haycraft]

Why do you need a new motor for it? Can't you just pick up a phase converter for 1-200 bucks?
http://grizzly.com/products/Static-Phase-Converter-1-to-4-HP/G5841 There are others that are cheaper..but this was fastest to find online.

[JT Chrstianson]

Good news! I just got an e-mail from the seller and he says he'll let the saw go for $800. Other posters have said that this sounded like a much more reasonable price. Do I bite?

Thanks!

JT

[Mike Spanbauer]

The last 2 numbers on the serial (back of saw) are the year of manufacture. I own an '84 vintage and I feel it was the best of the entire breed.

They are built to last, as long as the machine is complete. It sounds like someone really must have abused it as some point to force a trunnion replacement and then bearings although that is recommended every 3-6 years depending on use in production.

For $800 it would be hard to pass it up. The motor is a minor piece since you can get a high quality convertor for less than the motor and it'll work just fine. The blanchard note has already been covered. I considered doing mine as it has a very slight crown, but it doesn't affect performance and frankly, the cost was prohibitive.

You could do much worse! You'll have to be comfortable with the decision ultimately.

I have copies of nearly every (possibly every) original owners manual for the 66. If you let me know your vintage, I could probably locate the correct one and scan it in, pdf it, and email it.

mike

[Al Garay]

If you have enough doubts, pass. There are plenty of PM66 and Generals out there (at least out here).

Brand new Steel City Cabinet saw with the granite top and riving knife are right at the price you are looking to spend on your project.

[Kirk Poore]

Setting aside the new paint job, it looks like a late '60s machine from the handwheels and the oval badge. The badge will have the serial number on it. The first digit will indicate the year (like 8xxxx is 1968).

As far as the reground table and replaced trunnions, I wouldn't worry about them. Just check out the blade tilt and raise travel and make sure it all moves smoothly.

Go with the VFD--it'll be cheaper than a new motor, and your existing 3ph motor is better than a single phase one. And you can sell the existing starter to get a little money to help with the VFD. I spent about $300 on a 3hp Leeson for my PM 65 two years ago, and motors have gone up since then. That didn't include the starter or pushbuttons (I couldn't find heaters for the included Arrow-Hart starter).

I think this is a good deal. And if you go

Kirk

[JT Chrstianson]

Setting aside the new paint job, it looks like a late '60s machine from the handwheels and the oval badge. The badge will have the serial number on it. The first digit will indicate the year (like 8xxxx is 1968).

As far as the reground table and replaced trunnions, I wouldn't worry about them. Just check out the blade tilt and raise travel and make sure it all moves smoothly.

Go with the VFD--it'll be cheaper than a new motor, and your existing 3ph motor is better than a single phase one. And you can sell the existing starter to get a little money to help with the VFD. I spent about $300 on a 3hp Leeson for my PM 65 two years ago, and motors have gone up since then. That didn't include the starter or pushbuttons (I couldn't find heaters for the included Arrow-Hart starter).

I think this is a good deal. And if you go

Kirk

I'd have to agree about the vintage of the saw. In fact, the first number on the serial number is a 6. The seller told me that the saw is a 1966 machine.

I did test out the tilt and raise wheels and everything worked like, well, butter.

The saw won't be available for pickup until next Friday so I'll update this thread with some pics around then.

My thanks to everyone!

JT