New to the forum... starting up a "band saw centric shop"

[Joseph Ragsdale]

I'm new to this forum. There's lots of valuable information here and I'm been using the search and browsing.

I serve active duty in the USAF. 2A553A Avionics technician for the C130J model. I have some "deployment special pay" saved up, so I'm looking to start up a small woodworking shop for building hardwood furniture.

Like most I have a small shop. A table saw takes up too much room for my small shop. I'd like to create, if at all possible, a shop where the band saw is the heart rather than the table saw.

I learned to mill wood by using a jointer, thickness planer, and table saw. First, face joint to remove cup, warp, etc. and edge joint with the jointer. Second, make both faces parallel using the thickness planer. Last, make both edges parallel by running the piece through the table saw with the jointed edge against the table saw's fence.

Without a table saw, how can I complete the last step in the milling process?

I'm thinking I can cut the piece to roughly the size I want with the jointed edge against the band saw's fence. After which run the rough cut through the jointer to smooth up the cut.

I read on this forum of others with a "band saw centric shop," but I'm not entirely sure of the method they use to mill wood.

My experience with band saws are with cheap 3/4 HP 14" models. I'm looking to buy a 1 1/4 HP 14" Jet or 1 3/4 HP 14" Powermatic. Either of which should provide a great deal more accuracy and power that's more appropriate for what I'm trying to accomplish.

Insight is greatly appreciated.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joseph,

Welcome to the Creek. Thanks for your service!

I'll let others more experienced with b/s reply to you thread.

[Jesse Cloud]

No problem with that final step. Be sure you get an adjustable fence for your bandsaw and adjust the fence angle for the drift of that particular blade. (To find the drift, draw a straight line on a piece of scrap and cut on the line, you will find that you have moved the board at a slight angle to stay on the line - that angle is the drift of the blade). Then you should have no problem cutting parallel to the jointed edge on the fence.

In our shop we use the bandsaw to rip 1/32 proud of the desired width and then make 1 pass on the jointer. More passes may make the board no longer parallel.

The 14 inch saws you mentioned should work fine for shaping wood. If you are doing a lot of resawing, you may want to consider something a little bigger and heavier.

[Steven Wilson]

After doing a rough rip on the bandsaw you can stand your boards on edge and run them through the planer to get an accurate rip (very accurate). You can try this with a jointer but I would recommend using a handplane instead. If you use a jointer or hand planes to get an accurate rip you need to mark the line accurately. I use a knife for that as a pencil mark is too wide.

[Art Mann]

There was a long thread on here a while back discussing this very issue. My position is that a bandsaw is not an adequate substitute for a tablesaw. However, it can certainly work as you describe. There are several guys who are doing exactly what you want to do who will, i am sure, be glad to relay their experiences. You may want to try to find the thread I am talking about and private message them to join in the conversation.

[Doug Hobkirk]

Sam Maloof, reputedly the best woodworker in the world, is "band saw centric," so you're joining good company!

I personally think a good guided saw system (aluminum rail with precise circular saw) is better (!) than a table saw for most hobbyist woodworkers. The Festool guide is great, especially if you have a Festool vacuum and MFT (a small work bench). I prefer the EZ system - I have rails that easily cut 9', an integral square, and a "smart table" (2'x4' board with 1x4 rails that extend out to support up to 4'x8'. Put it away when you aren't using it, use it outside.

Good luck.

[Mike Spanbauer]

I don't know if you're looking for a high volume production environment or if this is strictly for your own work, but I would personally recommend a few good handplanes (Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, or well tuned Stanley "classics")

You can do all of the rough work with the B/S (slightly oversizing) and then finish the edge with a handplane.

Just a thought.

mike

[Rye Crane]

Hi Joseph,

Welcome to the Creek! Your shop organized around a bandsaw is a very good idea. I recently attended a seminar given by Sam Blasco of MiniMax. He sells their tools and is an accomplished professional woodworker.

Sam showed us how you can joint wood flat, saw it square and resaw it to final thickness with a well tuned bandsaw. He uses a jig on his fence that slides through the wood sort of like a meat cutter.

I could pm. you some pictures but I would encourage you to contact Sam directly at 866-975-9663. Tell him what you are looking for, if you need a bandsaw he will of course be glad to help. If not he will not try to sell you one either. I think he will try to inform you and give you some ideas, without any sales pressure.

MiniMax sells the Centauro line of Italian bandsaws, I have their MM24 and love it. Laguna sells the Meber Italian bandsaw and I believe Felder sells the ACF Italian saws along with Eagle tools in Los Angeles. They are all fine bandsaws with very similar DNA, all made within 30 miles of each other.

The bandsaw is really the most versitile machine you can buy. I would also encourage you to gather a selection of hand tools for most of the work the bandsaw cannot perform.

Good Luck,
Rye Crane

[Raymond McInnis]

Let me add my bandsaw-centered shop as another example of the little-noticed importance of the bandsaw as a tool for woodworking:
http://www.woodworkinghistory.com/images/bandsaw_fence_infeed_view.jpg

Below is the link to my website, and on the homepage is a link to a page dedicated to the bandsaw. Recently, in FW, the Portland-based professional woodworker, Gary Rogowski, declared that the bandsaw should be a "first-purchase" machine tool for beginning woodworkers. For me, it is difficult to understand why that claim hasn't received greater attention.

http://www.woodworkinghistory.com

[Billy Chambless]

Joseph,

I'm starting down the very same road. My shop is tiny; the only stationary tool is a 17" bandsaw (unless you count the dust collector, which actually takes up more space!)

Take the following advice with a grain of sand, because I'm just getting started with this approach:

Read everything you can find on bandsaws before you choose one. Mark Duginki's "New Complete Guide to the Bandsaw" is a good start. He gives some good pointers on choosing a saw, and lots of info on how to set one up. Proper setup becomes more important when the bandsaw is your ripsaw.

Handplanes can do everything a jointer and planer can do -- more slowly, but also more quietly. Again, read everything you can. If you haven't already, take a look at the Neanderthal forum right here.

Oh, yeah, and don't forget that this is supposed to be fun!

[John Bailey]

Joe,

I too use only a bandsaw. The only thing I would add is, if you are going with only a bandsaw, a larger one will make more sense. When using a bandsaw only, the size of the throat becomes more important than if you have a table saw in the shop too.

John

[Dave MacArthur]

Welcome Joseph!
Can I recommend you look at the top of this page, click the "quick links", then "edit profile", and near the bottom of that page is a spot you can type in your location?

I recommend this because it will help folks give you the best targeted info. I am also in the AF, and one great resource you didn't mention is the base Wood Shop. Most bases have one--check MWR or Services. Your access to this great benefit definitely allows you to modify the tools you buy to something different from others. Certainly milling stock there is reasonable--you can bring in your boards, joint/plane/belt sand. You could also use the tablesaws there (usually Unisaw or PM66, lately SawStop) to break sheets down or mill.

I only recently got my own bandsaw (always used the base shop, Delta 14" and a Laguna 16HD), and have not made a lot of use of it yet. However, I will say that some of the most common uses I made of my table saw can be done either on the BS, or other tools. Joinery--cutting tenons, rabbets/dadoes. Tenons can be cut on the BS, and rabbets/dadoes can be done on a router table. Also, a lot of joinery can be shifted to either biscuits, pocket hole screws, or... the loose tenon wundertool, Festool Domino ($$$$).

I HAVE done a ton of research on buying bandsaws, which you might find useful. Look at my signature below, and find the link on choosing bandsaws, it has links to many useful threads here at SMC.

If I was in your shoes, and looking to get a shop-center bandsaw, I would not buy the Jet or Powermatic. I would instead buy a Grizzly G0513, 513X, 513X2 (all 17" models with very slight diffs/improvements). They are about $750 to $1000 right now. If you have a bit more $, you might consider the G0514X (18"). Other good options would be the Rikon 14" Deluxe, Rikon 18", and Steel City 16" or 18".
Good luck, and welcome!

[Joseph Ragsdale]

Thank you for all the responses.

Blade drift was mentioned. Will there always be a certain amount of drift? How accurate can a band saw be?

I learned most of my woodworking knowledge on the table saw. This is somewhat of an experiment, as Dave MacArthur mentioned, I do have access to the base wood shop. Even though I lack experience with the band saw it appears to be a more practical saw for my purposes.

My purposes are primarily hardwood furniture. I can cut sheet goods, plywood, or MDF with powered hand tools.

As for a circular saw, I have a Bosch jigsaw that can cut through most materials without much fuss. I tried 1" oak as the hardest material and I'm happy with the cut it made. It cuts through 3/4" ply and MDF like butter. I don't see the need for a circular saw as my jigsaw is getting the job done. Blades for it are cheap.

My other saw is a Dewalt 12" compound miter saw. It does the job when a miter saw is appropriate. Blades for it are not cheap.

As for brand names, I've never heard of Grizzly. I've used Jet and Powermatic table saws, jointers, and planers. A Jet seems to be a lower priced and less feature rich equivalent to a Powermatic. I like both brands.

How's Grizzly compare?

[Billy Chambless]

Joe,

I too use only a bandsaw. The only thing I would add is, if you are going with only a bandsaw, a larger one will make more sense. When using a bandsaw only, the size of the throat becomes more important than if you have a table saw in the shop too.

John


This is one instance where I agree with the SMC "buy the biggest you can afford" party line. ;) In addition to the throat size, a bigger saw will handle the wear better, imo.

[Mike Cutler]

Blade drift was mentioned. Will there always be a certain amount of drift? How accurate can a band saw be?



Joseph.

First. Welcome to Sawmill Creek. Pleased to meet ya'.

Blade drift is not a given. It is typically associated with the smaller, lighter, less powerful bandsaws that have to, by design, run a blade that is thinner and more prone to twist and leading in wood. Blade drift is typically a factor during resaw operations, but is not exclusive to only that operation.

I have two bandsaws. A Jet 14" that requires quite a bit of compensation for blade drift, and an 18" Rikon that requires no compensation for blade drift. The larger saw has a significantly stronger frame that allows it to properly tension a wider and thicker blade that tracks better through wood.

Machine weight, wheel mass, blade quality and design, table and trunnion design, guides, fence,motor size and quality, bearings, weight distribution and vibration are all factors that can effect cut quality.
In a bandsaw central shop, you will definitely be looking at some of the higher quality machines.

A quality bandsaw can be very accurate once setup properly. It can rival a tablesaw.
Accuracy is also a misused term. The real term is repetetive. I need a TS or a BS to be repetetive. For example if I set the fence on both to 4", as measured with the same ruler. I can easily expect to have both machine yield a 4" width piece of material when referenced to the same ruler. If I cut multiple pieces without moving the fence I expect all of them to be the same 4" width on both machines.
Is the material really "exactly" 4.0000000" or is it 3.998765.?, and does it really matter? Because once the ambient enviorment has it's effect on the wood, it will be a different size tomorrow, or next year. So yes a bandsaw can be just as repetetive as a TS, and as "accurate" as the ruler that was used to set each machine up.

Is the cut quality any different? It depends on the blade, and the setup, for both machines. I have a Forrest WWII on my TS, and a Lennox Tri-Master on my bandsaw. If I rip a piece of material on both and set them on edge for viewing, it is very difficult to determine which piece of material was cut on which machine.
Even though I have both, I actually have two of each, I would give up the TS first if I had too.
The only operation I can think of, off hand, that a tablesaw performs that a bandsaw can't, is a dado, and a rabbet. A tablesaw also has more room to the left of the blade. A bandsaw is limited by the frame size. Something to consider depending on the rest of your shop machinery choices.

I guess after all of this rambling my answer is yes, most assuredly, a larger, powerful, quality bandsaw, can replace the table saw as the central focal point of a shop.
Which brings me to my final thought. You should consider a larger bandsaw than the two you have detailed. They are both fine machines, but they are too small.
Look at bandsaws in the 18+" size. (I'd personally be looking at 24" if it were me). That's where you'll find the power and features that you'll need down the line.

Apologies for being so long
winded. I like bandsaws quite a bit.

Once again. Welcome to Sawmill Creek.

[Wilbur Pan]

I serve active duty in the USAF. 2A553A Avionics technician for the C130J model.

I have no idea what skills that entails, but it sure sounds impressive. My guess is that you have some mechanical skills with your background. If that's the case, you might want to consider getting an older used bandsaw. The mechanism of a bandsaw isn't too complicated. I was able to restore an old Walker-Turner bandsaw to fine running condition, and I have no mechanical training whatsoever (I'm a pediatrician).

The advantage of this route is that you can pick up a vintage used bandsaw pretty cheaply if you keep your eyes open, and the old equipment was built like tanks compared to most of the offerings available today. This is not stuff that shows up in a spec sheet. these would be things like beefier castings, table trunnions, thicker gauge of sheet metal, and so on.

Just food for thought. Regardless, get the biggest bandsaw you can.

And yes, you can function quite well with a bandsaw only shop.

[Jim Becker]

To add to Mike's comments about blade drift...the blade, itself, will contribute to this factor. Even if the blade stays relatively sharp for awhile, the set may eventually become uneven from just running on the tires, depending on the type of saw wheel design and blade. New blades tend to cut pretty straight...and gradually that changes. You also want to dedicate any blades for resaw and other straight cutting work...with not even the "hint" of a curve. This will help minimize blade drift.

[Josiah Bartlett]

The nice thing about bandsaws is that a 17" or 19" model doesn't really take up any more shop floor space than a 14" model and is a lot more versatile. You may want to be careful about what voltage the saw needs, though, I lived in a lot of places that didn't have 240 volt power before I settled down and bought a house with a shop.

[Joseph Ragsdale]

Thank you everyone again for the thoughtful comments.

Wilbur,

A 2A553A is an Air Force Specialty Code. An AFSC is to the Air Force what an MOS is to the Marines or Army. The key parts are "2A" which means aircraft maintenance and "55" which means Integrated Avionics 5-level technician. The other "3" I don't know what stands for (haha) and the "A" stands for Communication, Navigation, and Systems which is the subset of "Avionics" I work in. As another example, "C" is Electronic Countermeasures.

In the miltiary, we like codes, abbreviations, and acronyms.

For instance, a typical on the job conversation might start as "We had an ACAWS on 45 for a SKE fail. I ran an IBIT on the PMA which gave me a fault code. I followed the FI and it had me replace the pedestal. Ops check good. I signed the job off in GO."

Makes perfect sense don't it?

I've looked around in my local area for some dinosaurs, but I haven't been able to find any. For the ones I have found, the owners don't want to give up for any price.

I've been looking at Grizzy on Amazon. The price difference between Grizzly and Jet/Powermatic seem too good to be true. For instance, the Grizzly G0513 17" band saw is $844 shipped. The closest comparison I could find is the Jet JWBS-18X which is $1,200. The Powermatic would be more expensive than the Jet.

Mike Spanbauer,

I have thought of going with some more hand tools. I have the money for a jointer, so I thought it would be easier to go that route than learn how to tune a hand plane and learn how to use a hand plane.

In addition to a lack of workshop space I also have a lack of woodworking time. I want to get the most out of the little time I have, so power tools are the way to go for me.

Mike Cutler,

Your comments on repeatability are right on. That's what I meant by accuracy.

I'll be using my 12" miter saw for most cross cutting tasks. My next saw will be a "rip saw" mostly. Being able to rip hardwood with "repeatable accuracy" is what I want.

Just out of curiosity, why is a 14" band saw "too small." If 17" or 18" is what I need, I'll go with that, but 14" looks like it can do the job. Most of the wood I'm going to cut will be no more than 4" thick and no more than 12" wide.

I haven't really thought about resawing. A 17" band saw can cut 12" vertically while a 14" can only cut 6" vertically.

Are the "a bigger saw will handle the wear better" comments really applicable to the higher priced band saws made by Jet and Powermatic?

[Mike Cutler]

Mike Cutler,

Your comments on repeatability are right on. That's what I meant by accuracy.

I'll be using my 12" miter saw for most cross cutting tasks. My next saw will be a "rip saw" mostly. Being able to rip hardwood with "repeatable accuracy" is what I want.

Just out of curiosity, why is a 14" band saw "too small." If 17" or 18" is what I need, I'll go with that, but 14" looks like it can do the job. Most of the wood I'm going to cut will be no more than 4" thick and no more than 12" wide.

I haven't really thought about resawing. A 17" band saw can cut 12" vertically while a 14" can only cut 6" vertically.

Are the "a bigger saw will handle the wear better" comments really applicable to the higher priced band saws made by Jet and Powermatic?

Joseph

There are a few variables in the equation, primarily they are all stresses and forces that effect the cut of the material.

You need a frame that is strong. The frame needs to be a rigid structure that can withstand the force of properly tensioned bandsaw blade. It needs to have weight/mass to damp any vibration induced by the blade during operation.

Wheels. You want big, heavy wheels. All of that rotational mass acting on the leading edge of the blade will aid in cutting a straighter line.

You need a spring in the tension mechanism that can compress to the requisite force to maintain the blade tension and not be bottomed out, or else all of the blade force, in pressure, will be exerted on the frame. "No spring, no bandsaw".

You want big bearings and arbors to distribute the force over a larger area, and increase the life of the bearing and the arbor.

Motor. You want power. The motor and the wheels are the heart of the bandsaw.

You need a blade that can cut through the 4" material that you referred to in your post. 4" thick hardwood is actually a pretty thick piece of wood. For a bandsaw, or a tablesaw. It will take some power to cut through cleanly and efficiently. If you intend to rip 4" thick pieces of hardwood, that is essentially a resaw type operation. It may not be for bookmatching, but it is still going to require that a blade more closely defined as a resaw blade be used.

Guides. Quality guides make all the dofference in the world ensuring that a blade traks true. there are many different types though,and all have their supporters, and detractors. Good ones aren't cheap though.

While an 17/18" saw can resaw 12" under the guides. The real test is how well it can do it. Same with the 14", in abscense of a riser block it is limited to 6", but once again how well can it do it. That is the real test. This is where all of the variables come together. Long rips and resawing. Where power, rotational mass, vibration, guides and blade all work together. Is the blade tracking true, or is it leading and bareling in the cut?
The higher the quality of the cut, the less handtool work, or planer operations are required after.

In a shop with a tablesaw, a 14" Jet or Powermatic would be a very nice compliment. Your objective though is to replace the tablesaw with a bandsaw. This means that the bandsaw has to replace the tablesaw for it's sheer power eventually. In my mind this means a big, heavy powerful machine to replace a big, heavy powerful machine.

Do you really need a big bandsaw right now? No, not really. If your work is going to be limited to smaller items, and you're willing to do some extra "after the cut work", a 14" will do very well. There are a lot of people that have successfully used a 14" BS exclusively and done some fabulous work.
However, I do believe that down the line, you are going to want the bigger bandsaw for the power it will afford you. You'll want a quality bandsaw so that you spend less time setting it up in between cuts, and less time fiddling around with it.

Remember though. It never hurts to have two bandsaws in one shop someday. If the Jet or the Powermatic fit your budget and space requirements. I'd say go for it. In the eventuality that you do end up with a larger machine, you can set up the 14" for more "curvy' type work, and the larger one for more milling associated tasks.
Between the Jet and the Powermatic. I'd recommend the Powermatic. I have the Jet, but I like the location, and orientation of the Powermatic's lower guide bearings better than Jet's. They decreases the effective distance between the upper and lower guides. Essentially the blade is supported better.

[Dave MacArthur]

Well said, Mike! I agree with everything he said.
Another point--if you're willing to pay what it costs for a 17" or 18" grizzly, for some other 14" saw, there is one simple answer--DON'T. I would take a 17/18" grizzly over a Jet or Powermatic 14" of any flavor, any day, especially if you'd get it cheaper. Yes, it sounds too good to be true, but 500 posts here on SMC from satisfied owners establishes that it is nevertheless true.

[Joseph Ragsdale]

A very thoughtful post thank you.

I'm thinking the following will do well based on my research:

Grizzly G0513 17" Bandsaw $844
Grizzly G0586 8" Jointer $839
Two Mobile Bases $144
DeWalt DW734 12" Planer $399
DeWalt DW7350 Stand with Mobile Base $100

$2,326

Not too shabby.

[Mike Cutler]

Joseph

The G0513 is very close to the Rikon 10-340 that I have in construction and appearance.
I have mine setup with a 1" Lennox, 2-3 varipitch, Tri-Master blade. Nice blade, big $$$ though. It is a lot of saw for the money in my opinion. I haven't regreted the purchase.
I think you'll be pleased with the G0513.