Fly over a major airport???

[Mitchell Andrus]

My son had a night-time flying lesson last night, one of his final lessons before going up with an FAA tester. ...about a month to go 'til his 17th b'day.

Apparently, all you need to do is ask for permission to enter the airspace (class "B" airspace around major airports I think) and if granted and you have your transponder turned on, just fly right in. They flew directly over Newark Airport at 6:30 last night at 1,500 ft. He looked down and watched a 747 landing right under him. Next, a left hand turn at the Statue of Liberty and a trip up the Hudson with NYC all lit up just for him.

Wouldn't you think with all the security this wouldn't be so easy. Yes, he did have nail clippers and a half bottle of shampoo in his flight bag, but mum's the word!

[Mike Cutler]

Try doing it without notifying the tower, and then watch the security measures kick in.:eek:,;)

Congrat's to your son on his progress with his flying lessons.
Well done, you should be very proud of him.

[Eddie Watkins]

I'm not a pilot so take this with a grain of salt. I was flying with a friend several years ago and we flew across the Oklahoma City Airport. Seems like he said it was legal as long as you were at a certain altitude. I'm thinking he said 3500 feet. They can't even tell you not to. He did say it made air traffic controllers mad as well as commercial pilots that had to delay their takeoff or landing while you passed. They sent a plane up right in front of us and right behind us so it did appear that they were trying to send a message. I think military bases are different but don't know that. So with all my disclaimers I just said nothing.:o
The guy did die in a flying accient a few years later doing acrobatics at an air show so he was definitely a risk taker. A really nice guy, though.

Eddie

[Jim Becker]

I suspect there is more to this in that your route over the airport is also likely important. Eddie's post illustrates why this might be the case, if not legally, at least practically. And you don't want to be in a small plane and get caught in the wake of a large aircraft if you can avoid it...the turbulence generated by the bigger plane can be quite nasty. This is a good part of the reason that single isle commercial planes are spaced a bit more from "heavies", especially on takeoffs.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I think military bases are different but don't know that.
Eddie

Yep, he flies near Lakewood, NJ on one of their cross countries (landing at another airport). There are two bases (I think) very close together. He can get close enough to see the Hindenburg memorial, but the whole time it's like... GO AWAY.

[Mitchell Andrus]

The area directly above an airport is amazingly calm. The planes (even helicopters)come and go in a cone pattern. It's like an upside-down wedding cake. The lower you are, the closer you are allowed to get. Cross-wise to the runway there is zero airport traffic at certain altitudes. The little ones fly there.

At upper altitudes, the cone is very wide, but the big guys cross through the airspace occupied by the single engine flyers in about 15 to 30 seconds. When was the last time a jumbo hit a Cessna?

[Jim Becker]

No question, there are "very few" small planes hit by big ones. But that air behind the monsters is not a nice place to be!

[Pat Germain]

Years ago I asked a pilot friend about landing his small Cessna at a major airport. He said, technically, it is allowed, but it's typically not a good idea. He also said the air traffic controllers could tell you to get lost if they wanted to.

Many military airfields share runway space with a civilian airport. Thus, civil and military aircraft would be in the same pattern. However, civilian aircraft wouldn't be permitted to taxi to the military side.

For a military-only runway, they will let you land for an emergency, but typically not otherwise. Another pilot friend of mine once had his rented plane stall just after reaching altitude. He declared an in-flight emergency and the closest airfield was Camp Perry, Virginia. (Camp Perry is a mysterious government base). They did let him land and he made it safely without power. He was then quickly escorted off base.

[Tom Veatch]

... Another pilot friend of mine once had his rented plane stall just after reaching altitude...

Pat, it's not my intention to criticize you so please don't take offense, but just for clarification, there is a major difference between "stall" in an airplane and "engine failure". A stall is a loss of lift due to flow separation at high angles of attack of the wing. Stalls are frequently and deliberately induced in the course of flight instruction so that they can be recognized and corrected by the pilot. Recovery is very simple and straightforward. If a stall is allowed to progress to the point of becoming an in-flight emergency, forget about diverting to an emergency landing, the smoking hole in the ground is going to be directly below wherever you happen to be at the time.

I know that in an automobile, "stalling" and "engine failure" are synonymous terms, but that is far from being the case in aircraft.

Sorry, but that pushed one of my buttons. (I've even been known to yell at the TV when the reporter confuses the terms - using phraseology much less polite than would be permitted in this forum.)

(Private, ASEL, Instrument)

[Robert foster]

Tom: What do you fly and which airport do you fly from down there in Wichita? I flew my PA22 down there a few years ago into Jabara.

Bob
Private ASEL Instrument

[Lee Koepke]

We fly into Savannah on occasion, and a couple of times just after we would take off, you would see two FA-18s taxi short and turn straight up .... the seem to get to altitude a bit faster than the King Air we ride around in.

[Pat Germain]

I know that in an automobile, "stalling" and "engine failure" are synonymous terms, but that is far from being the case in aircraft.

Sorry, but that pushed one of my buttons. (I've even been known to yell at the TV when the reporter confuses the terms - using phraseology much less polite than would be permitted in this forum.)

(Private, ASEL, Instrument)

Oh, dude, no offense taken. You are quite right to correct my terminology; especially because I do in fact know better. I'm not a pilot, but I've spent a lot of time around aircraft. I've worked aboard many aircraft carriers and on many air force bases.

By the way, the engine failed because the previous pilot had experienced a prop strike. (I think that's the proper term for the propellor hitting something while the engine is running.) The engine was inspected, but the camshaft gear key was not. It was cracked. When my friend levelled off, the camshaft gear key sheered. As I understand it, because of that incident, the FAA now requires the camshaft gear key to be inspected after a prop strike.

[Shawn Walker]

I suspect there is more to this in that your route over the airport is also likely important. Eddie's post illustrates why this might be the case, if not legally, at least practically. And you don't want to be in a small plane and get caught in the wake of a large aircraft if you can avoid it...the turbulence generated by the bigger plane can be quite nasty. This is a good part of the reason that single isle commercial planes are spaced a bit more from "heavies", especially on takeoffs.

This kind of reminds me of being a lttle lost in the fog, out in the salt chuk in my 12ft. aluminum boat, and suddenly hearing the blast from the horn of a Superclass ferry.
The fog was so thick we couldn't see past the bow, so picking a heading was a crapshoot.
I guess the Captain figured this because he instructed us over the PA to stay where we were he was going around.
We never did see that Ferry. We only knew what it was because we recognized the horn.
Thank God those things have good radar. :p

[Tom Veatch]

Tom: What do you fly and which airport do you fly from down there in Wichita? I flew my PA22 down there a few years ago into Jabara.

Bob
Private ASEL Instrument

Hey, Bob,

Due to a couple of heart attacks, eye, and ear surgeries, I haven't exercised the privileges of my certificates for several years now. Prior to that, most of my activity was in Cessna Flying Club aircraft (172, 177, 182, 206, and 210 models) out of Mid-Continent or, going way back, in company owned aircraft (182, 210) out of Cessna's private field which, I believe, was decommissioned when all the single engine work moved to Independence, Kansas. Going even further back, before coming to Wichita, I was part owner of a Beech V35E (the V-tailed doctor killer) in Huntsville, AL. That was a really nice flying airplane. The only thing I regret about the move to Wichita was having to sell my interest in that Bonanza.

Approach and departure from Cessna field in Wichita could get exciting at times. The field was located slightly north west of Carswell AFB immediately west of the southbound final approach into Carswell. So the approach to Cessna from the east had to thread through traffic from Beech Field to the north and Carswell to the south.

The Carswell base hospital was just across the fence from the south end of the Cessna runway. So standard procedure for departing to the south was a hard left turn as soon as you broke ground to avoid the hospital, and stay below Carswell pattern altitude until you cleared the Carswell pattern after which you could climb to cruise altitude. You really had to keep your head on a swivel flying out of Cessna. But it was fun and I do miss it!

[Dick Latshaw]

Approach and departure from Cessna field in Wichita could get exciting at times. The field was located slightly north west of Carswell AFB immediately west of the southbound final approach into Carswell. So the approach to Cessna from the east had to thread through traffic from Beech Field to the north and Carswell to the south.


Umm.. Carswell is/was in Fort Worth. Are you thinking of McConnell perhaps?

Dick - who flew in and out of both places in another life.

[Tom Veatch]

Umm.. Carswell is/was in Fort Worth. Are you thinking of McConnell perhaps?

Dick - who flew in and out of both places in another life.


Yes, of course.

Don't know where the name Carswell came from except part of my misspent youth was with General Dynamics, adjacent to Carswell AFB which we used for our F111 flights. Haven't thought of Carswell for years.

I was looking out the window of my office in the Cessna Engineering building one day in the mid '70s and saw a parachute coming down in the field east of the factory. Seems a guy in a National Guard F105 had lost his engine up around Emporia and nursed it almost all the way home. He came up a few yards short and punched out just before the plane grounded on Cessna property, wiped out some of McConnell's approach lighting, slid across the perimeter road, took out a civilian vehicle containing a couple of AF dependents, continued through McConnell's fence and came to rest on the base. Don't recall what happened to the occupants of the car, but can you imagine telling the insurance company that you were involved in a collision with an AF jet fighter.

[Curt Harms]

I overfly Newark whenever weather permits when ferrying between my home 'drome by Lakehurst and Newburgh N.Y. where the service center is located. Flying VFR over Newark it's about 14-18 minutes. IFR routing goes either over Madison CT. or the near Wilkes Barre PA. south to Philly then east. Takes about 45 minutes vs. 14-18 over Newark. New York approach is cool with it but I wouldn't have to legally say a word to anybody as long as I'm above 7,000 feet. Might be legal but wouldn't be smart.

[Rick Dohm]

Wow! A topic that's in my wheelhouse.

In spite of attempts by major airlines to convince the flying public that they are created more equal than the rest of us, all aircraft being legally flown have the same rights to the airspace above us. There are numerous regulations and restrictions that must be adhered to, but so long as a pilot is in compliance with Federal Aviation Regulations, s/he has the same right to be there as the "heavies". That said, it is the controllers' job to provide separation and sequencing for the aircraft competing for the same space to avoid making loud crunching sounds in the air, so pilots, whose need to "be there" is further down the chain, may be diverted. But assuming no conflicts, nothing "prevents" a plane from flying directly over any airport. It is pretty unusual, however, for an aircraft not on an instrument flight plan to ever be given permission to enter Class B airspace (Class B airspace exists around airports like Chicago, Atlanta, etc.). Even with the restrictions of the regulations, there is no freer feeling in the world than the one you get while commanding a machine through 3-D space. You should try it some time, if you haven't already.:D

Rick Dohm
ATP/ASEL, ATP/AMEL, CFI, CFII, MEI, FAAst Team Representative

[Curt Harms]

Wow! A topic that's in my wheelhouse.

It is pretty unusual, however, for an aircraft not on an instrument flight plan to ever be given permission to enter Class B airspace (Class B airspace exists around airports like Chicago, Atlanta, etc.). Even with the restrictions of the regulations, there is no freer feeling in the world than the one you get while commanding a machine through 3-D space. You should try it some time, if you haven't already.:D

Rick Dohm
ATP/ASEL, ATP/AMEL, CFI, CFII, MEI, FAAst Team Representative

I find New York is pretty good about class B clearances as long as it doesn't cross a departure or arrival corridor. Philly?? fergitaboutit. The Hudson River corridor used to be fun,1100 feet or below, fly by the world trade center at about the 80th floor. No fun since 9/11, too many ghosts:(.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I find New York is pretty good about class B clearances as long as it doesn't cross a departure or arrival corridor. Philly?? fergitaboutit. The Hudson River corridor used to be fun,1100 feet or below, fly by the world trade center at about the 80th floor. No fun since 9/11, too many ghosts:(.

My son said that the Hudson River trip is quite a something. He's done it a few times. Traffic stays to the right, just like on the road - but there are no speed traps.