Timber Framing

[George Bregar]

My sister and I want to build an additional home on our lake property in northern Wisconsin. With our kids, their spouses, and grandkids the house we have is getting a little tight, so a second place is attractive. I've always wanted to build my own house and at 50 I'm running out of time...so it looks like I may be taking the spring and summer off to do it. A timber frame home with SIPS panels is attractive from a design standpoint, as well as construction and joinery techniques. After all, it's just like a piece of furniture, except the components weigh tons :D. I'm looking to do all the work except the foundation, well, and septic. I'll likely have to hire out a crane and operator for the raising, unless I can find 50 or so Amish guys with nothing to do on a Saturday. ;)

Anyone ever done timber framing?

[David Duke]

If I'm not mistaken I think that Andy Hoyt does that.

[George Bregar]

If I'm not mistaken I think that Andy Hoyt does that. I looked him up and visted his web site...looks like he makes timber frame models.

[Darryl deHaan]

I am in the middle of doing my 8x12 shed (3 year process...so far:o). I scored a bunch of 6x6 beams from a friend, so the cost was minimal. The joinery is fun, because it is all with hand tools, but it is time and space consuming. I have a couple of good books on timberframing that I picked up off of ebay that probably gives you most of the knowledge you need, but nothing compares to doing some test joints with some scrap beams or end cuts. It would be a very large undertaking, but likely very rewarding.

I would have to book the whole year off of work I think to complete it though... 2 seasons wouldnt be enough for me :p

Darryl

[George Bregar]

I have some books ordered, and will b taking a on week class in March. Space isn't a problem, I have over an acre of open flat land, with a 24x36 empty garage (my future woodshop) next to it.

As far as hand tools, that's doesn't seem to be true. A chainsaw mortiser can speed up that process, and power saws can assist in cutting to length and tenons. Drawbore holes can be done with a large drill.

Seems the biggest challenge would be moving those bad boys around.

[Steve Leverich]

" Seems the biggest challenge would be moving those bad boys around."

George, you might consider buying a used, full-size backhoe - the hoe, with a couple of grab hooks welded on the back of the hoe bucket, makes a pretty heavy duty crane for things like that. Also, until you slap a laser on a piece of land it LOOKS level, but flat ain't necessarily level - the loader bucket can MAKE it flat AND level.

When you're done, and if you haven't gotten addicted to having hydraulic power around (I did, so still have mine) you can sell the hoe for what you paid for it ($8k in my case, and it IS a Case 580) Steve

[George Bregar]

Thanks for the tip Steve. Very good idea. Thinking this out, the biggest challenges have to be dealing with sheer size and weight of the timbers (some over a ton), and the resulting assembled bents. The joinery I can do, as well as the rest of the construction, electrical, and plumbing etc. The one thing in abundance up Nort' is "handyman" that I can employ to help when needed at very low cost.

As far as the land being flat, that was a relative description. Flat enough to store and move timbers around. In no way level. Hey, with a backhoe I could do the foundation work also!

[Steve Leverich]

Yup; a full-size hoe has a typical loader bucket that's 7'wide and holds a full yard - this translates to about 4000# lifting ability (hoe's about the same) since a yard of wet 3/4- rock can weigh about 3000. I've picked full units of plywood with mine, so far the only thing that caused it to grunt (and say no) was a full unit of rough-sawn oak (which, after I couldn't pick the whole thing I'd estimated weight at around 6000#)

With the hoe, things can be lifted up to about 16 feet if you're innovative with rigging. It's also a lot quieter than dynamite for stumps (and easier to stay out of trouble with neighbors)

I've built a set of forks for the front bucket that, combined with a sheet of 1-1/4 flooring ply, makes a solid work platform that can be elevated to about 10 feet and still be level.

Did I mention that they'll have to pry it out of my cold, dead fingers??!? :=) Steve

[George Bregar]

I'll have a few trees to remove, so another plus. Also has me thinking of how it could reduce or eliminate my crane costs. Might be able to lift up a bent high enough to get some temporary bracing under it, and then use it to pull it up if the posts are anchored to the ground. Not sure of the total weight of a brace though...could be too heavy. High enough too to transfer roofing SIPS perhaps.

Hey, maybe I could borrow yours? :D

[Steve Leverich]

No prob, George - although shipping might cost more than buying one locally :=)

As far as weight, I doubt any single piece of a non-industrial building would be much of a challenge - or were you thinking of going to pre-cast concrete tip-up construction? Anything concrete that's bigger than about 6' x 9' x 6" mine couldn't pick up, but could tip up close to twice that size. (half the weight at each end)

If you're starting to get serious about this, check out this site

http://www.equipmenttraderonline.com/

You can search in a radius from your area and see what's available, to get a better idea of what things are costing in your area, etc... Steve

[George Bregar]

No Steve, like the post says I want to build a timber frame building. The timbers for the bents are 10"x10" or 12"x12", and are 9' to 24'. Connect a few of those together and ... :eek:. They typically use a crane.

[Steve Leverich]

No sweat - that's only about 24 cubic feet of wood, a unit of plywood's about 100 cubic feet.

If you start looking for a hoe and the ad says "needs transmission work", be advised that since I bought mine I've spend about $8k in repairs, 6 of which was tranny work. One of the large bull gears in the tranny for a Case 580 cost $1200. So if something doesn't sound right, it could get spendy pretty quick.

I probably could have gotten by without those repairs for a while, but I'd already discovered that I had no intentions of letting the machine off my property (10 acres) anytime soon (like before I die) Steve

[George Bregar]

No sweat - that's only about 24 cubic feet of wood, a unit of plywood's about 100 cubic feet.

If you start looking for a hoe and the ad says "needs transmission work", be advised that since I bought mine I've spend about $8k in repairs, 6 of which was tranny work. One of the large bull gears in the tranny for a Case 580 cost $1200. So if something doesn't sound right, it could get spendy pretty quick.

I probably could have gotten by without those repairs for a while, but I'd already discovered that I had no intentions of letting the machine off my property (10 acres) anytime soon (like before I die) Steve a 12x12x24 timber is 24 cu ft. Remember these are raised assembled as bents (or frames), http://bp2.blogger.com/_7oQXcVWr8VI/RuhtGfSHoyI/AAAAAAAAAb4/ZuRNVoLpGYQ/s1600/Timber_Frame_Homes_Raising_bent.JPG.jpg

and consist of multiple timbers 6-8. Not worried about moving individual timbers around. Wondering if it could lift an assembled bent is all. Probably not.

[Steve Leverich]

Might be close, but I think in the case of something like that I'd rather be "overkill" - a crane rental isn't as expensive as screwing things up at that stage.

Still, I don't sweat calling buddies if I need to move anything in my shop - when I got the PM66 (long fence, long table) I just had 'em load it on a pallet in the back of my 1-ton van, drove home, put the forks on the front bucket, picked it out of the van and set it on the shop floor. (Man, wiggling those hydraulic levers sure can make ya thirsty... :=) Steve

[Reed Wells]

George, I used to do a lot of timber framing. One tool I would recomend is a Prazi Timber, bar and chain. It mounts on a Skill worm drive saw. Dove tails on a 12" beam are a piece of cake.

[Jack Porter]

Have you thought about a post and beam reconstruction, ie. taking an old post and beam barn and relocating it as an addition? It's tough to beat some of the old growth timbers you might find in a reasonably old barn. Needless to say you have the potential pest, mold, fungus problems, but those are treatable.

[Ben Grunow]

As a builder I have used both backhoes and the 4 wheel drive forklifts for framing. The forklift (Lull models around here) is hands down the tool for the job but- it does not dig. The reach on even an relatively small model is almost 30' and they are maneuverable as anything.

[John Keeton]

Our home is a timberframe hybrid. The entire home is sips, but only the great room is timbered. We had Timbersmith (timbersmith.com) out of Bloomington IN build and raise the frame for us and it was a work of art. The great room is 28x44 and 25' to the ridge. The timbers are 8x10 red oak and the construction is hammerbeam. Each bent weighed over 6000 lbs and depending on where you position the crane, you may need a very large crane due to the extension of the boom. These guys used the crane to handle every timber. The whole frame took 13 hours for the 4 guys to assemble and raise. Our frame was constructed with green wood. I took photos of the raising and made an interesting slide show. If you are interested, I will burn a CD and send it to you. After being involved in the process, to get a good result it would seem that time plays a big part because of the drying process. The pegs were kiln dried, draw bored, and mortises were housed. If it took several months to do the frame, I would think you would have a tremendous amount of movement and alignment would be a real issue. We were told that once the frame was cut (a 3-4 week process for the team), it needed to be raised within 4 weeks with proper storage of the timbers.

[George Bregar]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Jack: I actually saw a barn frame on craigslist, but at about $20k it's too high. Then with issues like decon, shipping, modifying the beams, and recon I don't think it makes sense. I need to make it simple in this DIY mode. Also, from what I've seen, reclaimed timbers from sellers are sold at a premium. Eastern white pine is local to me, and great for timber framing.

Ben, as far as a forklift, how well will it move on soft ground? The soil up Nort' is very sandy and soft.

John, from what I understand all timbers for TF are green. I'm looking at 24x32 for the whole building, just a small three BR cape with very simple bent design. I plan to use power tools, chain mortisers, timber saws,and power drills so that should speed things up. But that's a great heads up, something to consider in this research stage.

Steve: I was talking to my buddies tonight over cards and they all have backhoe projects! :D

Reed: Thanks for the heads-up.

[Steve Leverich]

"they all have backhoe projects!" - Now, THERE'S a shock... :D Steve

[Brian Elfert]

Are you doing a timber frame for the looks or structural reasons? SIPS are generally self supporting except the roof may need timbers or finish grade LVLs if you use SIP panels for the roof.

For the SIP panels themselves you might want to contact Panelworks Plus int he Minneapolis area. www.panelworksplus.com (http://www.panelworksplus.com) No assocation. Just been talking to them about panels for a new house.

[George Bregar]

Are you doing a timber frame for the looks or structural reasons? SIPS are generally self supporting except the roof may need timbers or finish grade LVLs if you use SIP panels for the roof.

For the SIP panels themselves you might want to contact Panelworks Plus int he Minneapolis area. www.panelworksplus.com (http://www.panelworksplus.com) No assocation. Just been talking to them about panels for a new house. Both. Love the look, especially for a lake property. As a woodworker, there is a lot appeal in going the TF route on a DIY over stick framing. Thanks for the link, will be using SIPS and looking for close (shipping and all)

[John Timberlake]

The only timber framing I have done is a class about 9 years ago at Goshen Timber Framing (http://www.timberframemag.com/). They have a lot of customers who come, take the class, and then come back and help build their own. I think the design is a critical aspect and make sure the local inspectors are up to date with timber frame and SIPS construction. I highly recommend that you take an extended class since you will be doing things you don't normally do in furniture like using wood that is "about" 8"x8" and is still green. The class I took we were building a lake house for Wisconsin and there was a father/daughter team in the class who we were building it for.

[George Bregar]

The only timber framing I have done is a class about 9 years ago at Goshen Timber Framing (http://www.timberframemag.com/). They have a lot of customers who come, take the class, and then come back and help build their own. I think the design is a critical aspect and make sure the local inspectors are up to date with timber frame and SIPS construction. I highly recommend that you take an extended class since you will be doing things you don't normally do in furniture like using wood that is "about" 8"x8" and is still green. The class I took we were building a lake house for Wisconsin and there was a father/daughter team in the class who we were building it for. As I mentioned, I will be taking a week long class in March...same kinda deal. Form the posts it should be clear that I understand that there are challenges simply due to the size of the timbers, it is my biggest concern. But I do think that 20 years of woodworking will be invaluable in this endeavor. They're M&T, dovetails, half lap etc joints...just big. Very very big. As you can imagine, I have heard a lot of "you're nuts", but that is expected. Heard the same thing when I decided to rebuild my 95 BMW motor. No experience, but like all these things, knowledge is power. I'll find out what I need, and then it's simply execution. Once you know what to do, it's just "turnin' bolts".

I am looking at a Vermont TF architect that has his more popular standard plans for sale. He has teamed up with a large TF builder. He also does custom design, but the standard plan for a 24x32 cape is close to what I want. Have to check up the local requirements for sure, I don't think it will be an issue.

[Dave Lewis]

I can't say I did any timber framing, but we live in a timber-frame house built for us 4 yrs. ago. Moved in Dec '04

Our timber framer worked with others at the guild:
http://www.tfguild.org/

I would think that a whole house would be a big underrtaking for a 1st project. It might work best to hire an experienced timber -framer and offer labor.

Good luck

[Gary Keedwell]

I lived in a beautiful post and beam home for three years. I would find myself taking a break from reading or watching TV and just staring at the beautiful joinery right there in my living room. It was my favorite house but I sold it 3 years ago for good money.;)

Gary

[Marc Gélinas]

Hello Mr. Bregar,
I've built a small timber frame addition on an old stone house (16' X 24') and I'd say plan well ahead as just working the timbers can be a very long process. Don't forget that a cutting a 2X short and a 10"X10" short doesn't quite have the same implications. If you want to do it on your own I'd strongly suggest starting the timber work (i.e. cutting mortises, tenons etc.) possibly as much as a year in advance. It's a lot easier and faster adjusting your foundation dimensions and design to your frame than the opposite. Either way it all comes down to planing. And do get all the books, support and information you can.
Note: Some will tell you a chain mortiser sounds nice, but at the end of the day you just may find pre-boring and chiseling mortises isn't such a bad idea! (And quite enjoyable)

[John Keeton]

George

I don't think skill and ingenuity are in question here. As I commented in my previous post, it is the time factor.

We spent a year researching the whole concept, went to several raisings, and looked at many TF homes.

Having lived in our home now for 3 years, and witnessing the shrinking and tightening of the timbers, and watching some of them move over time, has convinced me that the frame is a cohesive unit.

If the various components aren't assembled with a fairly consistent moisture content, in a relatively short period of time, I think you will run into major problems. A well thought out time line is critical.

As you know, for efficiency you would need to cut all timbers to size, make all similar cuts at the same time, etc. As you progress the tenons you have already cut will be drying ahead of the mortises you will cut next month, etc., and vice versa. If the structure, as a whole, does not dry as a unit, you better have a lot of come-a-longs available to pull everything into alignment when you raise this thing. One timber being twisted an inch (which isn't too much to expect) will cause you nightmares.

In short, I don't doubt you can do the job, and do it well. I would just be concerned if you view it as most DIY projects are done - as time permits. I just don't see that working in a TF project.

On the other hand, if you can get enough help and move through the project in a relatively short period of time - go for it!!

[George Bregar]

George

I don't think skill and ingenuity are in question here. As I commented in my previous post, it is the time factor.

We spent a year researching the whole concept, went to several raisings, and looked at many TF homes.

Having lived in our home now for 3 years, and witnessing the shrinking and tightening of the timbers, and watching some of them move over time, has convinced me that the frame is a cohesive unit.

If the various components aren't assembled with a fairly consistent moisture content, in a relatively short period of time, I think you will run into major problems. A well thought out time line is critical.

As you know, for efficiency you would need to cut all timbers to size, make all similar cuts at the same time, etc. As you progress the tenons you have already cut will be drying ahead of the mortises you will cut next month, etc., and vice versa. If the structure, as a whole, does not dry as a unit, you better have a lot of come-a-longs available to pull everything into alignment when you raise this thing. One timber being twisted an inch (which isn't too much to expect) will cause you nightmares.

In short, I don't doubt you can do the job, and do it well. I would just be concerned if you view it as most DIY projects are done - as time permits. I just don't see that working in a TF project.

On the other hand, if you can get enough help and move through the project in a relatively short period of time - go for it!! No if I do this it will be a full time endeavor, not a "as time permits". Now, there are a few isues at hand. One is drying...the studying I have done is that the joinery accounts for this..a mortise will shallow in it's depth and a tenon will shrink in it's thickness, so mortises are always cut deep, and tenons cut very tight. This former is important even after the frame is assembled to keep the the tenon from being pressed out of the mortise.

Twist is another issue. Not sure what you could do if a 12x12 timber twists. In any event I will find out, much more study to do. I would think tarping the timbers would retard the drying process, and WI in spring and summer, especially in the north woods, is anything but dry. Thanks for the encouragement, I will keep this thread going as the process continues. Beyond the determination of whether I am capable, or what parts I am capable, are the overall issues that a combination home buyer/general contractor have.

[Anthony Fields]

Very nice endeavor. At 57 yrs old though in my case, I'd hire a few to do the heavy work and as the OP said, pre cut what you can to save time. Best of luck. Permits aside, I think they're only good for 6 months if you're in need of one.