Learning hand tool skills -

[John Dykes]

I’m not very good at coming “right to the point.” The Kentucky boy in me wants to ramble on in the hopes of relaying further insight and perspective – so that my mentors can better guide me. So I ask for your indulgence…

A few recent threads have pushed my thoughts to venture (again) outside of my comfort zone: handtools only, book sales, saws to buy, buying as you need, chisels, Keith’s recent post, etc…

With all due respect to a man I admire and hope one day to shake his hand, I’m a Normite. I’ve outfit 2 home shops – one pre-“.com,” one post-“.com.” (The first shop was sold to pay bills during the “.com bust”). On the two shops, I’d say I’ve spent over $10,000 on powertools – and books on powered techniques.

Let me rephrase that – I’ve spent well over $10,000 on tools and technique… and I don’t own a handsaw, nor would know how to use one.

Yes. I’m that guy… hey, but I’m trying!

I’ve learned much about the history, care, and use of hand planes recently. It’s been a real joy and blessing to be honest. I’ve used that knowledge (with considerable trepidation) on a substantial pile of 6/4 walnut for a 42” round table top. This past weekend – I glued up the flattest panel I could have ever imagined (the whole curved blade, tuned planes, starrett combo square, LV straightedge “thing” actually works!). I can say without reservation, I’ve never enjoyed woodworking as much as I do now – nor been as pleased with the results! I do better work now with a few hundred in new / old hand tools - than I did with many thousands invested in mass production grade tools.

Would I like to go mostly powerless? Maybe, but it’s not my primary goal (I'm following Keith's and Marc's threads closely, but get lost as I don't know what a "panel saw" is.... ). Rather, I’ve found I enjoy the use of hand tools much more than a screaming planer or a jointer whose results are now considered unacceptable. I wonder what other steps forward (backward?) I might be able to attempt. Did I mention I don’t own a hand saw?

I think I’m coming to a point… For the last several months (dating back prior to my “hand tool enlightenment”), I’ve been futzing with a “filler” project: a box. It’s a small mitered box – and I’d like to key the corners. Yes – I’m familiar with how this is done using a tablesaw. Quick, easy, accurate; and I could even vary the key thickness and placement – to a degree.

I wondered driving into the office this morning – “Maybe I could cut a key slot (and maybe even the key) with a saw?” But before you shake your head, snicker and move to the next post, consider the only saw I’ve ever used was for hacking on 2x4s for framing a basement years ago – and it was a messy, crooked, inaccurate affair. I went and spent money on a chop saw….

I’ve also realized – I don’t have any books on hand tool techniques. In the woodworking circles I've run in, it never would have dawned on anybody to try cutting a key slot with a handsaw. But if sawing these little keys (or anything else) w/ accuracy is like using a plane…. I’d sure like to try.

My questions are these:
1) I may never get to the point of ripping boards w/ a saw (though I might try it someday!), I’d like to cut key slots in the corners of my little box. What type of saw should do this? If I’d like the slot wider than the kerf, pare it out w/ a chisel? Clamp it in a vise at 45 degrees and hold the saw straight parallel to the floor? Heck – how do you even make keys w/out a table saw?? I’ve learned knowing planes, is knowing sharp… What sharpening “accessories,” skills are needed in using saws? Which leads me to my next question:

2) I literally have several shelves of books detailing nearly every powered method, but none (outside of the Handplane book) that describe or teach hand tool skills – specifically saw usage or joinery methods. What would be a good starter set of books? Basic hand tool skills – stock preparation, and joinery.

Thanks –

John (Taking baby steps in trying not to be that guy!)

[Jeff Craven]

I suppose any backsaw could be used to cut keys (backsaw being reinforced so the blade doesn't bend).

Book: Traditional Woodworking Tools by Graham Blackburn.

I don't know where you are located, but this would be even better,
A course on handtools by Mario Rodriguez: http://www.philadelphiafurnitureworkshop.com/view/show/22

[Pedro Reyes]

John,

Too many books, I'll have to get back to my library, but off the top:

"Classic Handtools" ; Garret Hack
"Handtools: Their ways and workings" ; Aldren A. Watson

The second one covers a lot of things, it may seem patronizing when it explains things like a hammer or punch, but I learn things here and there every time I pick it up, even on the simple tools, and it is nice to read with good hand-drawn illustrations by the author.

The keys, I have not done it but if we are talking about a miter joint, I would:
clamp the boards (outside face to outside face, sort of forming an "A" when looking at the edge)
take a tenon saw and cut where you would like your keys, follow with a wider rip panel saw. This guarantees that they align and that the key is the same on both sides of the box, it also helps you prevent cutting too much that the key would protrude into the inside of your box once it's assembled.

If you want wider than a Rip saw blade, mark both sides with the tenon saw and chisel away.

That was supposed to be the "house" version (simplified) but I realize it is long and perhaps not too clear.

Anyway, the books should help.

/p

[Wilbur Pan]

Books are great, but to get started, nothing beats a class. It looks like the Denver Woodcraft has a class on hand tools (http://www.woodcraft.com/stores/store.aspx?id=305&nav=classes). The other thing is to look for a local woodworking club, and make friends with their hand tool nut. Every club has one, and we all love to lure new victims down the slope. ;)

[Did I say we?]

[Thomas Knighton]

Check out Hand Tool Essentials from the editors of Popular Woodworking. I found it to be a great work.

[Sam Yerardi]

John,

Proud to call you a brother woodworker no matter how you cut that board. I'm on the other side of the river from you (Ohio). As far being a Normite, you're proof there's always hope :) (just kidding)

For many years I took the power tool route, and even to this day I still do some things with a table saw or bandsaw. But I'd say I'm probably 85-90% hand tools. Moving to that now seems so natural. It just feels right. I'm not a purist, but when I turn on a power tool I feel like I'm giving in. One thing I've noticed between the power tool (Norm) approach and the handtool approach is this - with power tools, if you want to do something different or unique, you invariably have to buy/make and use some other type of power tool accessory. With handtools, you learn to do an enormous amount of things with very few tools. As a matter of fact, it forces you to become innovative with the tools you do have. You learn and discover techniques that you will become very good at for the work you do. That's part of the excitement for me. And I get such a feeling of satisfaction seeing a plane or chisel work with a sharp edge. It's a great feeling of accomplishment.

OK, now to your question. You asked about what type of saw to use to cut a key or dovetail with? That's goes back to what I was saying above, there is no one right way to things. Typically when you are making small cuts such as you are talking about you will use a backsaw or a dovetail saw. If the cut is across the grain, then the saw should have its teeth set for crosscut. Likewise, if it is with the grain, you might want to use a ripping set on one of those saws. The good thing is you don't have to do that - it will just work better if you do.

As far as books, there are tons of them. A couple books that I used (and still use) for beginning handtool work is the Complete Woodworker series. They are two books written eons ago and go through all of the basics, etc. I'll try to remember to dig out some titles for you and post them here.

[Jim Becker]

Best way to get started with hand tools is to...just start using them when it appears to make sense to do so. Even those of us that are largely tailed tool users can get a lot of wonderful value with a few good hand tools. I use my low angle adjustable mouth block plane (L-N in my case) and my (sharp) chisels more and more with every project. In my most recent furniture project, a set of nightstands, I pulled out my small hand saw for some work that I previously would have used the band saw. It was quick, easy and quiet.

I'm not saying that resources like books and videos are not valuable...they are. But "just do it" really is what got me going with building some meager skills. And most of the things on my "future acquisitions" list are in the hand-tool category as a result.

[Greg Stanford]

I'm reading "Hand Tool Essentials" myself right now. It's by the editors of Popular Woodworking. I'm getting a lot out of it but I've wondered what others, more knowledgable than myself, think of the book?

g

[Sam Yerardi]

John,

I found the titles I was telling you about:

The Complete Woodworker by Bernard Jones
The Practical Woodworker by Bernard Jones

These books were published more than 70 years ago but I consider them a classic for anyone that wants to learn handtools and learn how cabinetmakers from that time period on back did things.

[Richard Niemiec]

As far as books, and free to boot, Google has been digitizing books that are out of copyright, and there are several books I am aware of devoted to the woodworking arts.

Go to Google. click "more" at the top, choose "books" and "advanced book search".

Search all of the words: "woodwork"

Search "full view" (these are the digitized books)

Search Subject "Manual Training"

What you will get is a bunch of publications I have yet to fully go through, but if you want specifics, go back to advanced search and put in as the Author: "Ira Samuel Griffith" or "Fred Crawshaw" you will get several books on high school shop class as it was back in 1915 or so, Griffith has one titled "Essentials of Woodworking" worth looking at.

If you play around with the search criteria, and surf the responses, you find even older books, like "Practical Carpentry, Joinery and Cabinet-Making", London, 1826, printed for Thomas Kelly, and "Sold by his Agents and all Booksellers throughout the British Empire", and "Book III" is the cabinetmaking part that I found interesting.

There's a lot out there. RN

[John Dykes]

Thanks to each of you for all the help... Having guidance as I continue on this path is comforting.

I've just ordered 9 books from Amazon - inclusive of all the ones suggested, as well as the 3 Charlesworth books (as his videos were priceless in my education), and the Schwartz workbench book (space and money is limited, but I may hock my jointer and planer for bench materials\floorspace...).

Thanks Wilbur - the only hand tools class at Woodcraft is starting in 4 days! Your advice was timely and very much appreciated!


But I'd say I'm probably 85-90% hand tools. Moving to that now seems so natural. It just feels right. I'm not a purist, but when I turn on a power tool I feel like I'm giving in. Thanks Sam, that's where I want to be...

The Woodcraft class suggests a plane, marking gauge, marking knife, and a saw. As I only have 4 days, I don't have much time for learning \ restoration - so I'll probably go Veritas for the marking tools, and LN for a quality Dovetail saw...

Thanks again...

- jbd in Denver

[Mark Stutz]

John,
The class is definitely the way to go. If you don't need the saw for the first class, see if you can try out some others. You may find you like the Japanese style better, though personally I prefer western. There are good quality Japamese saws available for less money than their western counterparts.

[Albert Wagner]

As far as books, and free to boot, Google has been digitizing books that are out of copyright, and there are several books I am aware of devoted to the woodworking arts.
<snip>

Thanks for posting this, Richard. This is a terrific source. I downloaded several books and I just scratched the surface.

[Wilbur Pan]

John,

Good luck with the class! If you haven't seen what well tuned hand tools can do, I'm sure this will be an eye opener.

[Circa Bellum]

As far as books, and free to boot, Google has been digitizing books that are out of copyright, and there are several books I am aware of devoted to the woodworking arts.

Go to Google. click "more" at the top, choose "books" and "advanced book search".

Search all of the words: "woodwork"

Search "full view" (these are the digitized books)

Search Subject "Manual Training"

What you will get is a bunch of publications I have yet to fully go through, but if you want specifics, go back to advanced search and put in as the Author: "Ira Samuel Griffith" or "Fred Crawshaw" you will get several books on high school shop class as it was back in 1915 or so, Griffith has one titled "Essentials of Woodworking" worth looking at.

If you play around with the search criteria, and surf the responses, you find even older books, like "Practical Carpentry, Joinery and Cabinet-Making", London, 1826, printed for Thomas Kelly, and "Sold by his Agents and all Booksellers throughout the British Empire", and "Book III" is the cabinetmaking part that I found interesting.

There's a lot out there. RN

I guess I'm not computer literate enough, but once I find books like the 1826 Kelly publication mentioned above I can't for the life of me figure out how to download or view the book. All I can get is a description of it. Any tips?

[Richard Niemiec]

Circa: well, it depends what page you are on. If you can't see "download" or "view" this book in the upper right hand side of the page you are on, then look on the left top, there are tabs "about this book" and "read this book", choose "read this book". I hope that helps. RN

[Don C Peterson]

Don't forget toolemera.com (http://www.toolemera.com/Books%20%26%20Booklets/library-sharpeni.html), they have some very interesting old books on hand saws.

As far as saw recomendations go, a small back saw, filed for rip cutting would be the way to go. If you want one that's ready to go, buy a LN, Adria, Wenzloff, or Gramercy dovetail saw. Some are easier to find than others, but all run pretty close to the same price and all are excellent saws.

If you want a project, search eBay for a used Disston or Spear and Jackson etc... dovetail saw. These are going to be high quality saws, but may need some TLC including sharpening before they are usable. One thing I've noticed, is that the true dovetail saws on eBay tend to get bid up quite a bit, especially for those that are in good shape.

You also mentioned not knowing what a panel saw is. According to most, a panel saw is a shorter cross-cut saw. The longer cross and rip saws are just referred to as "hand saws". Sometimes "panel saw" and "toolbox saw" are used interchangeably. Hand saws tend to have blades 24" to 32", panel saws tend to fall somewhere between 16" to 22". I don't think there's any real agreement on exactly where the dividing line is, but that gives you something...

Vintagesaws.com (http://www.vintagesaws.com/)and DisstonianInstitute.com (http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/)are a wealth of information on the Disston line of saws and general saw care and use. Also, here at the creek, search for posts by Bob Smalser, he's kind of the resident hand saw guru.

Good luck and happy sliding!

[Dan Bussiere]

I don't think I would ever get completely away from power tools. But I would love to expand my hand tool work greatly. My biggest frustration with hand tools is my inability to get any of my tools sharp enough to use with any reasonably smooth cut. I read everyone saying that you do this or do that and you just learn. Sorry, I tried but by the time I get worn out and frustrated just trying to get a sharp hand plane, I no longer have a desire to use it. Just turn on the switch and cut it instead. So, if I could learn, and force myself to stick with it, the proper techniques for sharpening I would love to expand my hand tool use.
I think this fear of sharpening is what stops a lot of folks from ever venturing down this slippery slope......:eek:

P.S. I know it's not you folks responsibility to teach me or anyone else how to sharpen anything and thats not my point. I just find this to be the biggest obstacle for me. And......

I am a little jealous of the fine work I see done here by you people with hand tools. Ok, I'm very jealous!:)

[Richard Niemiec]

Dan, get this book on sharpening by Tom Lie Nielsen:

http://store.taunton.com/onlinestore/item/070737.html

One of the better I've seen. RN

[Lee Koepke]

I think this fear of sharpening is what stops a lot of folks from ever venturing down this slippery slope......:eek:



Thats been my issue. I know the value of what good sharp tools can do, but getting them there ... thats my dilema

I am taking a class Monday on some basics of sharpening. It wont tell me everything, but it will tell me more than what I know now. At least after Monday, I can ask better questions.

[John Dykes]

My wife thinks I'm a little nuts when the mail comes and I run to her waving a gunked up, rusty Type 4 Stanley (that I paid $6 for...) - saying, "Do you REALIZE what this is?!" Then spend hours lovingly cleaning and polishing each surface and threaded stud.

But this came after many years of avoiding planes. As I've related before, planes started miserable for me years ago (a brand new LN #4) due to my own ignorance and Normite impatience (respectfully stated, but planes aren't "push button"). I enjoy immensely the ebay search, the anticipation of the mail, the examination, the cleanup, the tuning, the sharpening - and yes, the use - of a tool that cuts beyond my expectation. (Marcus can get grouchy sometimes on this point on occasion - but, from this stumbling neophyte's view, it's damn good advice.)

Back to the topic of saws... I have saw - rip? crosscut? panel? back? front?(sic) - Hell, I don't know. It's a long tapered piece of metal with teeth on one side. Vintage? Early 21st century Home Depot I expect. After trying for the life of me to use it effectively - I won't even go near that thing. But again, planes started the same way for me. If I can find the same joy in finding, restoring, and using vintage saws - I'm itching to learn!

I'm taking the hand tools class at Woodcraft starting next week (runs 4 weeks - looking forward to having the instructor critique my hand plane tuning skills). Though time is short, I did some ebay searches for the Disston saws yesterday - didn't feel comfortable enough to place bids - nor would I have time to get it in and sharp. But I did find a "matched set" of Adria "small tenon saws" - so I bought 'em.

The Sawmill is an invaluable resource - and I'll always be in debt to contributors past and present for the wisdom here. In a few hours searching and pouring over old posts, I learned a bit about a fella by the name of Tom Law. That Adrias were at one time hand sharpened by him, that he has a DVD, that he sold saws, and "set" and sharpened average saws to be exceptional. Again regrettably, I guess I'm a few years too late to get any vintage saw sharpened. I do wonder if he still sells saws - though I hate to bother him if he's retired...

Next steps: get my books in, find a used saw or two, Tom Law's DVD, "things" to tune and sharpen it with - and my Woodcraft class.

Regards,
jbd in Denver

[John Dykes]

I know it's not you folks responsibility to teach me or anyone else how to sharpen anything and thats not my point. I just find this to be the biggest obstacle for me. And.....

Dan, I've been there... and am still climbing out of that hole. It truly is a joy to use a sharp hand plane. I wasted several years in leaving my LN #4 in a box because I didn't understand how to sharpen it. I don't exactly recall why I bought David Charlesworth's videos - perhaps even a whim... But that video is solely responsible for pushing me over that considerable hump that lies in front of the "slope."

If you or Lee are unable to find or purchase the video - let me know and I'll send it to you (I'll even pay the postage). His guide is $15, his two stones (1000 & 8000) Dunno? $60? You should have something to establish a primary bevel - I use the DuoSharp course\xcourse - sandpaper would work too. Watch the video all the way through. Set it up by the sink - pause and then perform, step by step. It works!! And, while not my "responsbility," it is a tragic for you to have the desire - and give up. I wish I had somebody to kick me in the arse so I didn't waste so much time.... pushing buttons and thinking that was the "best way."

Again - let me know, I'll can ship out the video this weekend.

- jbd in Denver

[Dan Bussiere]

Dan, I've been there... and am still climbing out of that hole. It truly is a joy to use a sharp hand plane. I wasted several years in leaving my LN #4 in a box because I didn't understand how to sharpen it. I don't exactly recall why I bought David Charlesworth's videos - perhaps even a whim... But that video is solely responsible for pushing me over that considerable hump that lies in front of the "slope."

If you or Lee are unable to find or purchase the video - let me know and I'll send it to you (I'll even pay the postage). His guide is $15, his two stones (1000 & 8000) Dunno? $60? You should have something to establish a primary bevel - I use the DuoSharp course\xcourse - sandpaper would work too. Watch the video all the way through. Set it up by the sink - pause and then perform, step by step. It works!! And, while not my "responsbility," it is a tragic for you to have the desire - and give up. I wish I had somebody to kick me in the arse so I didn't waste so much time.... pushing buttons and thinking that was the "best way."

Again - let me know, I'll can ship out the video this weekend.

- jbd in Denver


John,
I would never ask you to send me your video or especially to pay postage to do so. But that is the caliber of people that frequent this board. Guys like yourself that are willing to help others become comfortable in this art even if it costs them something to do so. Good on you guy! I will look into getting this video and hopefully it will help me as much as it did you. Thanks for the encouragement.

[Lee Koepke]

John,
I would never ask you to send me your video or especially to pay postage to do so. But that is the caliber of people that frequent this board. Guys like yourself that are willing to help others become comfortable in this art even if it costs them something to do so. Good on you guy! I will look into getting this video and hopefully it will help me as much as it did you. Thanks for the encouragement.
same here.

part of the enjoyment of all this is the learning.

I keep some of my early wood-butchery work around so I can see what I have learned.

Thanks from me too!

[Wilbur Pan]

Back to the topic of saws... I have saw - rip? crosscut? panel? back? front?(sic) - Hell, I don't know. It's a long tapered piece of metal with teeth on one side. Vintage? Early 21st century Home Depot I expect. After trying for the life of me to use it effectively - I won't even go near that thing. But again, planes started the same way for me. If I can find the same joy in finding, restoring, and using vintage saws - I'm itching to learn!

If you are just starting out, you might want to give Japanese saws a try. Unlike western saws that cut when you push them, Japanese saws cut on the pull stroke, which simultaneously straightens the blade. They do require a different technique than western saws, so since you are first starting out, you might get good results since you don't have any skills to "unlearn". Many Japanese saws that are readily available have replaceable blades, so that when they become dull, you just replace the blade. Learning how to sharpen a Japanese saw is pretty difficult.

Having said that, many people do get excellent results with western saws as well (Hi Don!), and overall they would easier to maintain, compared to the Japanese saws that you do sharpen.

[Don C Peterson]

Hey Wilbur! You knew that would catch my eye eh?...

John, outside of a VERY few makers (Wenzloff and maybe Pax/Linx) there have been no decent western handsaws made since around WWII. Try the Japanese saws if you want, some folks (like Wilbur) swear by them. I mostly swore AT them, but I'll accept that it was most likely my faulty technique. Either way I have become a solid believer in the old western hand saws.

If you do decide to go the vintage western saw route, do yourself a favor, and before you rush out to eBay, garage/estate sales, or antique malls to buy some old saws, read Bob Smalsers many posts on rehabbing old saws, and read the DisstonianInstitute.com and VintageSaws.com to get a good grasp of what it is you should be looking for in a saw. Just because it's old doesn't mean it's any better than the new junk sold in the borgs...

[John Dykes]

I'm leaning towards the Western saws - initially at least. Admittedly, I'm a bit caught up in the nostalgia of the vintage planes - and hope to be with the saws as well; it's a good deal of the enjoyment for me.

Stuck behind this desk, I've been doing some reading (Disstonian and VintageSaws) and am still a bit overwhelmed. Vintagesaw sells refurb'd saws - but golly! As I said, I bought a pair of Adria "small tenon" saws (which I notice you don't list!) - but I hope to find a couple of Disstons this weekend- and the tools\files to tune\sharpen them... eBay saws seem to run even more than most planes!

Off to search on "Saw & Smalser..."

- jbd

[Don C Peterson]

John,

I only mentioned the makers of non-back saws. If you are looking at modern back saws the choices would include LN, Adria, Gramercy, Wenzloff, and maybe a few others.

There is a lot of information out there and it can be pretty overwhelming at first, but it really isn't all that bad once you get familar with the terms and concepts. The hardest part is trying to decide which saw is worth buying from just a picture.

If you go with western saws, you will want to learn how to sharpen them. The resources I mention are great, but there's no substitute for first hand experience. If you are ever in the KC area, you are more than welcome to drop by, but I'm sure there's someone in the Denver area that could show you how it's done.

[Wilbur Pan]

Hey Wilbur! You knew that would catch my eye eh?...

John, outside of a VERY few makers (Wenzloff and maybe Pax/Linx) there have been no decent western handsaws made since around WWII. Try the Japanese saws if you want, some folks (like Wilbur) swear by them. I mostly swore AT them, but I'll accept that it was most likely my faulty technique....

I bet your faulty technique with Japanese saws isn't anywhere as bad as my crappy technique with western saws. ;););)

I'd also add Lie-Nielsen to the quality western saw list. My 4 year old tried the Lie-Nielsen progressive pitch saw at a Lie-Nielsen tool demo, and sawed a pretty straight line. It was straighter than my attempt, but that's just my crappy technique again. ;)