Hmm... Alternate Chisel edge?

[Dan Barr]

I've been thinking. :D

Can carbide hold a razor edge; an edge that would be in every way usable like a chisel? What about HSS?

reason I ask is this: would it be feasible to laminate some carbide or HSS onto a chisel and have a tool that will hold an edge for a really long time?

Harry Strasil... I was going to PM you this question, but i figured i'd leave you alone and see what the other creekers would say as well. I know you'll probably have an answer to this one. thanks in advance.

I'm guessing that carbide wont take a 25 or 30 degree bevel. who knows. or would it just be too expensive?

hmm :rolleyes:

dan

[Mike Henderson]

With carbide, I'd think the problem would be chipping because it's so hard. Also, what would you sharpen it with? You'd have to have a diamond stone to sharpen it and it'd take a long time.

For HSS, I don't think it's any harder than regular carbon steel (that is, both are heat treated and can be hardened to the same Rockwell hardness). The advantage of HSS is that it withstands much higher temperatures without losing it's hardness. I don't know much about heat treating HSS but I assume you have to heat it a lot higher in the heat treating process. That heat resistance wouldn't have much value in a regular hand chisel (as opposed to a turning tool).

If you want a harder chisel edge, you can try Japanese chisels. They are laminated with a carbon steel edge and a low carbon steel backing. The carbon steel will harden with heat treatment but the low carbon steel will not. So you can wind up with a piece of steel on the edge which is very hard and a backing of "soft" steel that absorbs some of the shock. The combination gives both hardness and toughness. But it's easy to chip the edge of a Japanese chisel - at least easier than a Western chisel.

Mike

[John Michael]

I think carbide is just to cost prohibitive, especially for the smaller firms that make the majority of quality hand tools these days. I know they use sharpened carbide chisels for hand carving stone, and the guys I watched somehow managed to retain an edge, so I don't think chipping would be a major issue. If you look at all the long life industry tooling for shaping, planing, and CNC, they all use solid carbide or carbide tipped tools, it's just really expensive.

Mike pointed out the main differences in M2 vs A2 tool steel. The abrasion resistance of M2 may be a better over time, but I don't know how appreciable over properly tempered A2.

The best and most cost effective integration of carbide into chisels may be with carbide tipped lamination on M2, which would be analogous to what Mike described with Japanese chisels.

[harry strasil]

Solid Carbide is extremely hard, and just dropping the chisel edge on some hard wood could cause the edge to flake off, carbide reacts a lot like flint and you can actually knap it, (flake off the edges) if you know what you are doing.

[Pedro Reyes]

I think Mike nailed it...

HSS pretty much only offers an advantage when the temperature is high, it does not loose its temper as easily as carbon steel. But at the temperatures Neanders work at, it should be negligible, unless you move your plane that fast ;). Turning tools, different story, but chisels and planes are fine.

The drawbacks of carbide have been mentioned already.

/p

[Don C Peterson]

I was wondering about this a while ago and in my research I found that carbide, while being very hard, actually does not sharpen to a razor edge. Apparently the carbide molecules are too big to be used where a really sharp edge is needed. Carbide tools rely on speed rather than sharpness to cut.

There are, apparently some newer types of Tungsten Carbide with much smaller grains which can achieve sharpness approaching that of steel, but they are also prohibitavely expensive, and still suffer from the brittleness problems the others pointed out.

So, maybe someday, we'll have carbon tipped chisels and plane irons that hold an edge and don't chip and won't break the bank, but given the relatively small market, and large R&D costs of such an application, I won't be holding my breath. Of course nothing holds an edge forever and sharpening those suckers would not be my idea of fun...

[Tony Zaffuto]

Carbide has great wear resistance, but little shock resistance. Some like A2, but my preference is for good old high carbon steel. The Ashely Iles chisels I have readily take and hold edges. I recently bought a Ray Isles high carbon block plane blade that does the same.

Being a hobbyist, maybe I'm just too stupid to tell the difference between longevity of A2 vesus O1 or any of the other concoctions, but I feel more confident in sticking to what works for me. I do have to add, though, that I have significant familiarity with tool steels as used in my powder metal parts manufacturing business. Each tool steel is picked for a specific attribute and you don't dare mix uses: for example you cannot use carbide as a punch material as it would shatter with the first stroke of the press, whereas A2, S7 will last until an operator has an error.

I'm also curious by recent introductions of D2 as a chisel and plane blade material. In my industry, D2 is very rarely used outside similar applications to carbide, although I have heard bits and pieces about special treatments that permit wider ranging use of D2.

Carbide is a definite no-no. For my purposes, although I do have some A2 chisels and blades, my preference is high carbon steel.

T.Z.

[Hank Knight]

Dan,

I have a set of turning chisels I inherited from my father that have carbide inserts laminated onto the steel to form the cutting edge. These date probably to the 70s or even earlier, so I'm sure the technology is not up to today's standards. Nevertheless, I've never been able to get any kind of decent edge on them with diamonds or a green wheel. Unless modern stuff is dramatically different, I can't imagine you could make a carbide bench chisel that would function well. At the very least, you would have to adopt a whole new sharpening system.

Hank

[Tony Zaffuto]

If there is an inquiring mind among us (definitely not me--at least not tonight!), why don't you take a carbide tip masonry drill bit and put a bit of an edge on it. Probably will be an exercise in futility in sharpening and if sharpened, the edge will not last. Certain white grinding wheels can grind carbide, but you had better take protective breathing measures as the dust is very nasty.

T.Z.

[Jim Becker]

I was wondering about this a while ago and in my research I found that carbide, while being very hard, actually does not sharpen to a razor edge.

Yes, this was what I was going to mention. My understanding is also that it's a lot less likely for you to get a really keen edge on carbide and given the brittleness, it wouldn't hold up long in most situations. I'd rather have to dress an edge more often, but be able to get it really keen. (assuming I ever learn how to do that well and consistently... ;) ) The various carbon steels that are typical of hand tool cutting implements seem to offer that advantage and given heat is not an issue with stones, Scary-Sharp, etc., there is also no need for HHS.

[Eddie Darby]

Do you have these in mind?

http://www.dick.biz/dwen/Products/Schreiner_HSS-Stemmeisen-Satz,_10-teilig.html

[Hank Knight]

Do you have these in mind?

http://www.dick.biz/dwen/Products/Schreiner_HSS-Stemmeisen-Satz,_10-teilig.html

That must be some expensive leather!

[Wiley Horne]

Dan,

1. Most Japanese tool vendors, for example Japan Woodworker, sell HSS Japanese chisels.

2. Fellow named Bill Tindall made himself some CPM 3V chisels. Search archives at WoodCentral if interested. Particle 3V is a high-alloy abrasion-resistant steel similar to HSS. It's a great combination of abrasion-resistance, fine grain, and toughness (takes impact). No need to bevel it any higher than 25 degrees, and you can go into the low-20's if you want. If interested in properties, google 'Crucible Service Centers' and look it up.

3. BIG IDEA: You can't sharpen--really sharpen--high alloy steel like M2 or Holtey S53 or CPM 3V, with anything but diamond media. Hollow grind it, then go to diamond. It will take a great edge if you do that. But no amount of work with conventional sharpening media will produce a truly sharp edge, because AlOx won't cut the high-alloy carbides. Just wears away the matrix around the carbides, and you get the steel equivalent of an 'exposed aggregate' edge.

4. Item 3 above is why there's a lot of sense in what Tony Zaffuto is saying. And also what Mike Henderson is saying about Japanese white steel (high carbon) or blue steel (tungsten alloy) chisels. Or superblue steel, which is a bit more alloyed than blue steel, but not like HSS--you can still sharpen it with ceramic stones.

Wiley

[harry strasil]

there are two ways to sharpen carbide masonary bits. one is for just plain drilling and the other way is for hammer drilling. and you use green silicon carbide wheels for grinding carbide. its a real soft wheel.

the carbide in masonary bits is different grade than in lathe tool bits

[harry strasil]

I think the new style spiral cutters for jointers use carbide inserts to do the cutting

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Do you have these in mind?

http://www.dick.biz/dwen/Products/Schreiner_HSS-Stemmeisen-Satz,_10-teilig.html

Yikes! Until you remember that , = . in Europe... shish. Made me spill my drink Eddie!

[Hank Knight]

Yikes! Until you remember that , = . in Europe... shish. Made me spill my drink Eddie!

Thanks for the explanation, Steve. I've been trying for two days to imagine a $375K set of chisels!

[Phil Smith]

I've replaced all of my chisels with chisels made from CPM 3V and replaced the plane irons in the bench planes with irons made of CPM 3V and M4 tool steel. In my hands the tools are easier to sharpen and hold an edge longer than the chisels and plane irons being sold by LN, LV and the Japanese chisels that many use.

Tool steel is much easier to grind without risk of taking the temper out of the tools. You can easily grind to a wire edge on the grinder. Follow the grinder with fixed diamond stone to make sure edge is straight then polish with 1 micron diamond on cast iron and the tool is sharp and ready for use.

[Mike Henderson]

I've replaced all of my chisels with chisels made from CPM 3V and replaced the plane irons in the bench planes with irons made of CPM 3V and M4 tool steel. In my hands the tools are easier to sharpen and hold an edge longer than the chisels and plane irons being sold by LN, LV and the Japanese chisels that many use.

Tool steel is much easier to grind without risk of taking the temper out of the tools. You can easily grind to a wire edge on the grinder. Follow the grinder with fixed diamond stone to make sure edge is straight then polish with 1 micron diamond on cast iron and the tool is sharp and ready for use.
Phil - Where did you find those chisels and plane blades made from high speed tool steel?

You're certainly correct that a grinder will not affect the temper on those.

Mike

[Phil Smith]

Phil - Where did you find those chisels and plane blades made from high speed tool steel?

You're certainly correct that a grinder will not affect the temper on those.

Mike

The chisels I made from scratch. A couple of years ago there was a discussion on Woodcentral on whether or not you could put a good edge on tool steel. Bill Tindall and I ordered CPM 3V from Crucible Steel and made a set of chisels using ordinary hand tools ( hacksaw, file, grinder, sander, etc). Shipped the tools off for hardening and then put on handles. We have very good set of chisels. Only downside is that you need to use diamond to hone. But once you learn that trick they are actually easy to maintain and hold an edge very well.

Bruce Norton and I made a set of plane irons a couple of years ago to complete the tooling.

[Phillip Pattee]

Traditional Woodworker sell Kunz (yes, Kunz) replacement plane blades made of HSS. The blades are expensive and I have no idea how good they are. Craftsman Studios sells Academy Saws replacement plane blades that are HSS. I have seen, infrequently, some Japanese branded plane blades of HSS on the auction site. It seems to me, anything that you could or would use to make a plane blade would also serve well for a chisel and vise versa. Here is the linke to Traditional Woodworker, Craftsman Studio, and a treatise on the sharpenability and durability of various plane blades.

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/product_info.php/cPath/2_299_480/products_id/2998

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/C!010.htm

http://bladetest.infillplane.com/html/summary_of_results.html