Bench Chisels: Barr vs. Lie-Nielsen

[Dan Barr]

I want a good clean fight. BREAK! :D

I'm just soliciting opinions on these two chisels. I'm thinking about buying one of these sets. I'm leaning towards the Barr's right now. (last name has nothing to do with it.)

I've been looking at reviews and the Barr's just seem to have something over on the lie-nielsens. Although, i think i would like the lie-nielsen handles much more.

Thanks,

dan

[Peter Tremblay]

I had the same debate with myself about a year ago. I came up with this 1) I got a change to see the LN in person (probably should have asked to hold them) but they surprised me how small they were. 2) I have A2 steel in my plane blade irons and it can take awhile to sharpen so I thought that the steel from Barr not being A2 would sharpen easier- and it does. 3) I like to be a bit aggressive with my chopping duties for my chisels and the Barr's were definitively able to stand up to the beating 4) of all the new manufactures of chisels out there Bob Smalser recommends Barr and since I respect Bob S on I thought that was a good lead. 5) Chris Schwarz said in a review that the Barr and the LN were both very good.

All that being said I went with the Barrs and I really like them. They sharpen easily and stay sharp for a very long time. I always chop my DT's and after I am done chopping I can pair the end grain with out any problem. The handles are comfortable, I don't find the ferrules to be uncomfortable to hold because there are no sharp edges.

My two cents, hope it helps
Peter

[Kevin Adams]

Dan--

You really can't go wrong with either brand. A lot of it comes down to the feel. I've owned both and found the L-N handle, while beautifully crafted, just didn't feel right in my hand. I don't have large hands, but the L-N's felt small to me. In addition, I have some A-2 blades (L-N's) and they are fine, but I tend to prefer good old carbon steel. So, I sold the L-N's and bought the Barrs, and I have been very happy since. The Barrs aren't finished as "pretty" as the L-N's (they are hand forged after all), but the handles fit me great and they get sharp and stay sharp a long time. As an aside, I also own several other Barr tools and they are all first rate--plus, I like to buy from the craftsman who actually makes the tool.

Funny, but I remember that Chris Sshwarz sold his Barrs when he got L-N's, so there you go!

Kevin

[John Dingman]

Chris Becksvoort http://www.chbecksvoort.com/welcome.html uses Barr Chisels. They are pricey though. :eek::eek:

John

[Pam Niedermayer]

Why not wait until you get to the UK, then visit all the boot sales, or maybe get some new Isles?

Pam

[Dan Racette]

What is the type of steel that Barr uses?

[Bob Smalser]

I got to use both for a while and much prefer the Barr. There's just no comparison to the crisp edge hand-forged, high-carbon steel will take and hold. As good as anything laminated in Japan. But unlike most laminated chisels, you can hone them to 20 degrees for paring if desired. A2 is downright gummy in comparison, and requires a 30-degree bevel.

That said, I wouldn't buy either. Way too expensive for working in wet boat tent and out in the rain, and I don't need to feed my ego. Too short for my hands, too. Quarton's chisels are smaller than they appear in the catalog. A set of the longer Iles bench chisels function just as well without a second mortgage. And I'd buy Iles before LN, anyway.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/80534572.jpg

Otherwise I'll stick to my 5-dollar, dropped-forged, pre-war oldies. There just isn't a better bang for the buck plus they have so much more of me in them. ;)

[Joel Ficke]

Bob, thanks for replying here. If we are to go the pre-war refurb route, what should we be looking for to get good quality carbon steel bench chisels? There are just so many pre-war names out there. Are they all equal in quality?

[Mike Cutler]

Dan

I have the LN's, but I think you should get the Barr's. It sounds as if those are what you want, and you would just second guess youself if you don't get them.
I'm 6'3" tall,and have hands that are 8 1/2" long from wrist to fingertip,and I've found that the handles on the LN's are a little small, now that I've had some time with them.

I wish I could find the chisels that Bob finds. All the ones I seem to run across should have been sent to the recycler.

[Bob Smalser]

There are just so many pre-war names out there. Are they all equal in quality?

Here's a FWW sidebar that never got published:


Should I buy older, used chisels?

Depends. For newcomers it can be problematic, as you need good tools to use now but have not yet acquired the skills needed to rehabilitate abused antiques into something useful:

If you already have good grinding and honing skills and can also make handles, then flea markets and local and on-line tool auctions are an inexhaustible source of top-quality, high-carbon tools; often at prices less than you’d pay for the equivalent quantity of raw tool steel. Of course, you are trading your labor and rehabilitation skills for the money you save – and the labor can be considerable. I’ve done a bit of this at various auctions for myself and for tradesmen friends who don’t use computers, and I’ll share what I’ve learned.

As long as the chisel is old, factory-made, and intact with good length remaining, I’m not too concerned about condition short of severe pitting. For me, blade backs are easily ground on the belt sander to flatten and remove pits, sockets can be repaired, steel can be polished and blued to hide rust staining, and handles are easily made on the lathe. Anything marked "Stanley", "Witherby", "Winchester", “James Swan”, "Chas Buck" or "L&IJ White" is generally going to a collector for too high a price unless they are part of large, handleless lots. Older (not newer) Greenlee and Buck Bros, New Haven Edge Tool, Ohio Tool, Crossman, DR Barton, Underhill, Union Hardware, Jennings, Sargent, GI Mix, Shapleigh Hardware, Eric Anton Berg, Dickerson, Gillespie, Wye, Dixon, PS&W or PEXTO, Robt Duke, Fulton, Merrill, Butcher, Stiletto, Hibbard OVB, Simmons Keen Kutter, Lakeside and several other old makers and hardware store brands are every bit as good as the collector prizes and are much less expensive. Most unmarked chisels of that era were usually made by one of the above makers for a hardware distributor and are also generally excellent.

The only really poor socket chisels I've observed are newer Craftsman (older socket Craftsman were often made by Greenlee) of shiny, chrome-vanadium steel, some "Eclipse" brand and the occasional Stanley Defiance that refuse to take an excellent edge. Also, used tool dealers rarely know their wares well, and you have to look at each and every listing in detail to find what you need.

Having rehabbed around 200 of these old chisels and gouges over the past few years, I'll offer a quality opinion based on the ones I've used:

Top-Tier:

Witherby
Swan
Gillespie
New Haven Edge gov't contracts marked "USA" or "USN"

Hard to Call between First and Second....but always most excellent:

DR Barton
PS&W or PEXTO
Greenlee thin paring chisels
Buck gouges


Second-Tier:

Stanley
Stilletto
New Haven Edge
White
Older Buck (older chisels will have sockets, which went out around the time forging did)
Older Greenlee
Ohio Tool
Older Craftsman made by Greenlee
Winchester
Wye
Chas Buck
Douglas (precurser company to Swan)
GI Mix
Eric Anton Berg
Underhill
Jennings
Sargent
KeenKutter
Hibbard OBV
Dixon
Robt Duke
Fulton
Merrill
Butcher
Lakeside
Union Hardware
Dickerson
Shapleigh Hardware (Diamond Edge brand)

Third-Tier (Don't buy)

Stanley Defiance
Eclipse
Newer Greenlee, Buck or Stanley socket chisels made in the 1960's and later.
Any chisel with a vanadium finish like used on mechanics tools.

Al the hardware store brands were made by a larger chisel manufacturer. Greenlee seems to have made a lot of them. One store even bought from Witherby. Shapleigh bought Sargent planes as house brands, and many of their chisels were made in Winsted, Conn.

[Michael Hammers]

Dan, look at your last name...its a given!

[Dan Barr]

Ashley Iles or Ray Iles.

thanks,

dan