So, if I hook a logging chain to the truck...

[Nathan Conner]

I'm curious about anyone's experience removing the center post in a pole barn. I've chatted with a couple of guys about it, and I'm not sure about the structural implications.

My situation is this: I'm ready to do some major work on the interior of the 26' x 26' shop. I added a wall, replaced some siding, replaced the old tin roof with a real composite roof and decking, and have things laid out more or less how I like them.

But I'm getting ready to do some serious (for me) investing in lots of good materials for a set of benches & lowers to surround the inside perimeter on about 2 1/2 sides. Currently, there are some salvaged 4x8 conference tables and a couple of poorly made workbenches in place.

This leads me to think that I'd better have things well laid out before I get started on any drawings, and one thing that's annoyed me to death since moving into this shop 4 years ago is the huge 8x8, 12' beam placed in the center of the shop, right into the poured concrete. I'm sure, in this old pole barn, it was fairly standard. I guess that's sort of the definition of a pole barn, eh?

But my TS, 20" planer, jointer, drum sander and 18" BS all sit at odd angles around it, and most all of them are at different levels. I spend a lot of time re-configuring and moving things around, and there's never an optimal work triangle or a clear path from any one machine to another without having to deal with that beam. I've gotten a sort-of acceptable layout in place now, but it's really cutting into the other areas of the shop, and I know it's not great. That POLE drives me nuts whenever I try to think about a new layout.

So, is there a safe/sane way to remove it or build a support structure around it, then remove it? The layout looks like this - there are 8 vertical posts, one at each corner, and one in the middle of each wall run. This set of vertical posts is capped by another 4 26' beams forming the caps of the walls. Then, a very low-pitch roof has been laid out - no truss structure - on 2x6s, supported by a horizontal (front to back) pair of 13' beams running front to back. Each of these 13' beams is attached to the center beam near the top.

Make sense? So, I've had a few friends tell me that the weight of the roof could be supported by sticking together a truss structure underneath and that it wouldn't be much work. (By not much, I think they mean less than a couple of weeks.) Basically, run joists from the new, lower center beam set I would install below the current one cross-wise out to the caps on the walls. At that point, they claim, the weight of the roof and walls would be supported by the 3 vertical beams in each wall and it would be a snap to remove the center support.

Of course, none of these guys is a structural engineer. I know enough to know that it makes sense logically, but with my luck and track record, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to be crushed by the collapsed roof as I removed the beam. Or to destroy the shop and all the tools in it.

So, while I'm certainly not ready to embark on this right now, that center beam makes me crazy enough to think that if I'm going to invest several thousand simply in materials for lowers and benches and a DC room...why not get the shop structurally how I like it first?

Is it easier/safer/saner to knock it down and put up a new one, again...the way I REALLY want it? Two-story, larger footprint...with plumbing? :)

I'm afraid I'll never, EVER be at a loss for more things to do to the shop, but I don't want to work myself into a corner, where I've put hundreds or thousands of hours' work into it, only to realize at that point it's time to raze and start over. But I'm certainly willing to work with this and do some modification if it will help.

It's a huge project, remodeling the shop, I completely understand. And I could be asking for tens of thousands of dollars worth of work - say, removing the roof and putting a real roof down. Not that I'm going to do that tomorrow, but I could see it within the next few years. It's just a danged pole barn. I don't think it was meant to be a long-lasting, secure, happy little structure. Did I mention I hate the metal siding and the lack of windows and...all that?

Any opinions? Should I call an architect and get started on the new one? Am I moaning over something absolutely ridiculous?

[Eric Haycraft]

First of all, I think that you need to call an engineer in.

I do think that you have two options here. Adding rafters to an existing roof seems like more work than just rebuilding the roof, so you may want to consider just yanking the roof and starting over.
The second option would be to replace that post and the two 13 foot spans that it supports with one large truss or beam. I think that would be the simplest and fastest way to do it, but you would need a large crew to get it done. The beam could probably be done in engineered lumber, steel, or some form of truss. You would loose some overhead space this way, but it would probably be the quickest fix. Depending upon the footings for the current posts, you may have to pour new footings for the beam. If new footings are in order, two beams to the side of the current beam may be a simpler option.

[George Bregar]

Eric has the solutions, but his first one is most critical. An engineer will tell you whats required to carry the laod.

[Bob Feeser]

I admire your gung ho, get it done attitude, and judging from the size of your equipment that must have spilled over into your woodworking. They say a picture says a thousand words. The quality of the responses would go up dramatically if you posted several pics. Be that as it may, I have a few suggestions, which may or may not be a good idea. From what little I know.
Expanding outwards, as in a nice addition is usually preferable to tearing down, and rebuilding. Do you have a lot that will accomodate such a move? Consider this, you tear down a building, which is a job in itself, let alone all of your previous work goes to naught. Then you build a new building.
In comparison, you take that new building that you were going to build, and simply add on with it. Now you have the new building, and the old one too. By adding on, you are spending less money and time, because you do not have to tear down, and remove the waste. Plus building new has a lot of advantages. Everything is square. No need to accomodate all kinds of design integrity, that may have been built to accomodate the current system.
Normally structural changes to a building requires an engineer in order to get a permit. Without one they can condemn the building, and not let anyone enter. I say if possible, let out your dwelling, expand your borders, increase.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Nathan,

This isn't a project to be taken lightly. The older "gentlemen" who built my carport took it lightly. 2 years after I bought the place we had 9" of snow on the ground and the header on the carport was sagging 2 3/8" in the middle. So I retrussed it in place and then replaced the header. The city let me have the permits based on my drawings and the fact that the supplier of the header had a structural engineer working for them and I bought the header he recommended.

Not a project to take lightly!

Get an engineer involved!

[Nathan Conner]

That may be a great idea. If nothing else, I can create a new shop right next to the old one, have 2x the room, not have to do teardown of a perfectly good storage building...

I like that thought. And, if I do that addition that way, I can do it at my own pace and at my wallet's own pace.

If I still hate the pole when the new one is done, I still have a perfectly good barn, or wood storage, or...hmmm...a place for MORE TOOLS!

Thanks, Bob - exactly what I'm thinking.

I'll try to post some pictures here in a bit of the interior and exterior of the shop. And yes, there's a couple of empty acres surrounding it - useful property and no one to complain. It's a slope to either side, but there's a level area in front if it about 150' x 65'. That would be a great place to attach...

[Justin Bukoski]

Nathan, that's what I would do. That way you can put the DC room in the old shop and have a finishing area in the old shop. Building new will let you do cool things like DC duct in the floor etc....

[Joe Chritz]

The pole in the center is most likely a required piece and removing it without moving the load it carries to something else is bad juju.

All are going to be a bunch of work, but it depends on how it is finished now. If you are going out anyway, a roof off and using trusses may be the best method to go.

Any decent builder can take a look and give you a suggestion on what you have to do. Recently, the in-laws added on a kitchen area and removed the outer wall and put a LVL beam in its place. It was a big, messy project.

Joe

[Lee Schierer]

If your insurance is up to date and you can add me as a beneficiary then go with the truck and chain approach. Otherwise, get a registered structural engineer involved. That post is load bearing and unless you find a way to put that load somewhere else safely, sooner or later you will have significant problem in your shop. You might be able to put in an engineered beam and make the center space free of posts but get it in writing before you remove anything.

[Mike Heidrick]

I have seen many barns taken down where they dig a hole beside the barn, cut that post, hook a big chain to a big loader on the opposite side of the hole, and then pull. Barn falls mostly into the hole and then they light the pile to burn it out.

I would say get all of your important tools out of there before the big day.

[Chase Gregory]

So the two 13' beams that are attached near the top of the center column are lined up end to end and run the FULL length of the barn? In essence they make up a 26' ridge beam? And the columns they intersect at the exterior walls are 12' tall like your center column?

Or is this a hip roof w/ a 13' ridge?

You can pretty readily build a beam or girder to take the load of that 26' ridge beam and eliminate the center column. I'd sooner build up a girder that gives you some bracing than just a beam. But both can be constructed out of standard lumber, plywood, PL wood glue and nails.

What is the exact width of the ridge beam? Columns? 8".

Are there any tie-beams/collar ties or other bracing up in the rafters & beams?

A picture or two would, obviously, help.

Chaser

[Lee Koepke]

I have seen many barns taken down where they dig a hole beside the barn, cut that post, hook a big chain to a big loader on the opposite side of the hole, and then pull. Barn falls mostly into the hole and then they light the pile to burn it out.

I would say get all of your important tools out of there before the big day.
I would love to get my hands on some of that wood before they go to burning

[Bob Feeser]

I have a tiny lot, otherwise I would be a building maniac. I added an addition out the back, and was shocked just how inexpensively it can be done if you are doing a lot of the work yourself. This was only a 29' x 6' addition, all that I was allowed due to offsets, so I even dug the footers by hand, built the block wall 18" miinimum above grade or more, according to code, then built the walls on the ground, and hoisted them, then put on the roof joists, and capped the roof, laid down some ice dam insulation over the whole thing, to instantly dry it in, capped the walls, installed windows, then did the rest. All told it only cost me about 4 or 5 grand in materials, and it was made out of all solid cedar, stone, brass, glass, plants, even had 4 skylights, that I made from a 5 section Pella living room window, only 3 years old that a neighbor was throwing out to match the new CertainTeed windows they were replacing in the rest of the house.
Building a large shop is more of a challenge, or should I say pouring the concrete floor with footers in a monolithic pour is a good idea, and that takes a crew. Hiring a backhoe and operator for a day, after surveying the perimeter is do-able. Studding it out flies. How big? Trusses needed?
Don't mind me while I ramble. You seem to be well versed already.
One thing I want to share though is that the bigger it is the less per square foot it costs. Open empty space is relatively cheap. (You are only paying for the shell, plus the concrete for the floor, and some extra roof material.) Bigger is better.
I guess you can tell I would like to have your acreage. Way to go. Keep the information flowing with the updates.
I actually built the whole thing using a draw program, the cheap one that came in Microsoft Works. Every stud, header, jack, and king stud, sill, opening, and complete materials list and cutout guide. Zoning didn't have any problem approving a novice working on his own home that way. Then it was a simple cut by numbers, and I knew exactly what I needed for materials.
I knew that when I build my small addition, I could have built three times the size for only about 1000 dollars in additional material. (I would have been expanding only one wall, and a little on the other wall, and added a little more roof material. The common wall to the house did not change at all. No additional flooring was neccessary since there was already a poured concreate patio 8" thick, that I had to cut through to dig the footers.

I went into Home Depot and they had a book that had building costs, broken down into cheap, medium, and luxury homes. The one thing that was a constant is that the larger that they were, the lower the dollar cost per square foot there was, and drastically so. It seemed that when you factor in the cost of adding more hollow bedrooms, which is nothing more than 2 dollar 2x4's, and 5 or 10 dollar sheetrock that covers a 4' x 8' section of the wall, some floor, and roof material, also the garage is really bare wall space. All of the systems are already in there, and the kitchen stuff, and heating, well, or water supply, all the expensive stuff is already there. If a builder is building it for you, they don't tell you that the additional space is way cheaper, that is there gravy boat. They are already set up for each of the procedures, already ordering material, the concrete truck, back hoe, etc. are already there.
You can not afford to think small. Put the material costs together. Even if you are going to have others build it, contract it out yourself, and get a good carpentry contractor who is willing to act as your advisor, for a small fee. There are some great books on Amazon about how to contract out the build yourself. I bought one of them, it holds your hand, every step of the way. Checklists etc. I know I am rambling. Hey I am still a kid. I get excited. Thinking something is "neat" is not beyond me.
Keep us up to date on whatever you do, and think BIG.


That may be a great idea. If nothing else, I can create a new shop right next to the old one, have 2x the room, not have to do teardown of a perfectly good storage building...

I like that thought. And, if I do that addition that way, I can do it at my own pace and at my wallet's own pace.

If I still hate the pole when the new one is done, I still have a perfectly good barn, or wood storage, or...hmmm...a place for MORE TOOLS!

Thanks, Bob - exactly what I'm thinking.

I'll try to post some pictures here in a bit of the interior and exterior of the shop. And yes, there's a couple of empty acres surrounding it - useful property and no one to complain. It's a slope to either side, but there's a level area in front if it about 150' x 65'. That would be a great place to attach...

[Mike Heidrick]

I would love to get my hands on some of that wood before they go to burning

Why do you think i was around those barns ;)

Latest one had a disassembled barn inside it. I got what I could - I have some crazy sized beams from it that are pretty old. Most of them are 14'-16'. I had a full size long bed with the gate down and 4' still sticking out. Had to load them myself.

[Lee Schierer]

I have seen many barns taken down where they dig a hole beside the barn, cut that post, hook a big chain to a big loader on the opposite side of the hole, and then pull. Barn falls mostly into the hole and then they light the pile to burn it out.
I've seen them try to do that around here, but the farn refuses to budge untill they cut most of the joints.

[Brad Shipton]

It sounds like you have three primary beam lines, and from the quantity of beams you have listed it sounds like at the center of each beam line, the beams are cut over the support column. This is a simple span beam and no, you cannot simply cut out the center column. Your roof would fall down eventually. If the beam were continuous (ie. each full 26' long beams) over the supports, it may be possible depending upon the design loads in your area. The center beam carries twice the load of the others and when you remove the center post its span increases from 13' to 26' and the corresponding deflection increases by a factor of 16. Changing the beam span will also impact the existing foundations. The loads are small, yes, but the tools and people in it are valuable.

Brad

[Jack Porter]

Nathan,
From what I can tell the easiest solution would be to put in a transfer girder that would support the existing column (the existing roof would be shored, the column cut and new beam installed). The girder would span from exterior wall to exterior wall and be supported by new columns that could be hidden in the walls. Note that you might need foundation work to go along with this. Best bet is to have a structural PE look at it. The new beam could be glulam, steel, lvl, etc...