New Shelix Heads or New Drum Sander?

[Edward Garrett]

Well, this is my very first post to this forum. I have been using this site for over a month now and I have learned volumes, review the daily threads had now become a regular routine in my day....THANKS!!

Here is my question: I will have ~$1,500 to spend on a new tool for my new shop (I am outfitting the top floor of an 1826 barn). I had planned on purchasing the Byrd Shelix heads for my 8" jointer (Grizzly G0490) and my 20" Planer (G0454). However, before I make this investment I am wondering if getting a wide-belt drum sander would be the better approach....the G1066R is what caught my eye.

Some background: Woodworking is my hobby....my current and future projects revolve around building desks, tables and cabinets for my old farmhouse - lots of long, wide table/desk tops....I already have a table saw (Grizzly 1023SL), band saw - I like Grizzly for the quaility and price, and I am within driving distance of the PA showroom....I am a bit anxious about the installation of the new Shelix heads....I have never used a drum sander, and space for it might be an issue - depending on the the responses here, I may be able to make room for it.

So, new Shelix heads for the jointer and planer, or a new drum sander?

Thanks again....I hope this will be the first of many, many, many posts on SMC!

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I believe the question is whether you make your own veneers. Most planers can only go to about 3/16" or 1/4" thick. A drum sander can go much thinner without fear of the wood getting shattered. This is why I would like to someday get a drum sander.

I've also read that good dust collection is important for drum sanders. I understand that a single stage dust collector will quickly get clogged. A cyclone is preferred. However, I have no direct experience (yet :)).

-Jeff :)

[Jeffrey Makiel]

Oh, by the way. Where are my manners? Welcome to Sawmill Creek! :)
-Jeff :)

[NICK BARBOZA]

I have the performax 16-32 drum sander and LOVE it!! yes dust collection is key when running one of these machines but i ran it off a shop vac for about a year before i got my jet dust collector (1.5HP). shop vac kept up with it but dust collector does great.

with you $1500 you could easily get the large performax (22-44). it can easily be placed on a mobile base to conserve space too.

I did it in the reverse order as you because now i am in the market for a planer. I think i chose the sander first because i HATE to sand, it is soo monotonous... but i love my performax! the best $1K i ever spent!

[Nathan Conner]

I had a decent drum sander (got the Delta 18/36 for about $800) before I had a good planer, and I use it more than the 20" PM planer by a long shot. I use a shop vac for DC at the moment, and I really find that the sander is invaluable.

For instance, when I do rough stiles/rails out of resawn 6/4 lumber, I run them all through the drum sander in batches to get final thickness and finish, and aside from a light touch with the ROS here and there, they're ready to go! Could I use the planer? Sure! But it's MUCH easier (and cheaper!) to drop a new roll of sandpaper on a drum than to sharpen/change/reset 4x20" planer knives.

Doing veneers, resaw work, table tops...whatever, It's a joy to use. It's got the thickness capability to do large pieces, but you can get really creative about what's possible, and pretty soon you're sanding everything in sight. If it's flat, it can be drum-sanded.

Maybe if I'd started with a good planer, I'd be more apt to use it in most situations, but from when I've seen, a planer can really DESTROY a project with snipe or a catch that shatters your piece. This won't happen with a drum sander. Light passes, appropriate grit, good setup, and a good sander will eliminate the possibility of doing anything wrong. Also, you have to admit that the reality is, you don't own a 36" or 44" planer. So, you'll be limited unless you plan on doing a lot of hand finishing, scraping, etc. Not bad, by any means, but sure is easier to flip and run through the DS.

I'm still a beginner, and I appreciate the time I have while running things through the DS to think about my project, get a good look at the grain for orientation, or not have to worry about thicknessing.

As far as portability, mine doesn't take up TOO much room, and it's on a home-built mobile cart. The only thing I'd warn of is to take care that whatever you get allows you to build a simple extension setup. Mine, because the platen moves up and down, not the head, is a royal pain to set up for large, heavy pieces - the table extensions have to be adjusted along with the platen - so, every time you adjust the width, you need to adjust your extensions. Again, more time to think and plan, but it can get to be annoying.

I'd go with the DS. The new heads would probably be a valuable addition later, but a new tool is a new tool, and unless you're doing crazy figured stuff, I would guess (please don't bash me, guys!) that the average hobbyist would have good luck with a properly set up planer/jointer with straight knives. I'm not quite average, and mine work fine as is.

Good luck with your choice!

[C Scott McDonald]

Good Question!

Do you use a lot of figured woods? The shelix heads work really will for thicknessing the stock quickly. It will of course need to be sanded a little afterwards.

How about getting a Shelix head for the jointer only and the Drum sander? Drum sanders are awesome but they can't sand the edge of the board. The Shelix heads make it easy to straighten boards with wild grain.

Good Luck!

[Don Abele]

Ed, first welcome to the Creek! Good first question.

I just recently upgraded my 6" Jet Jointer to the Byrd head. I did this more out of "keeping up with the Jones'" than out of necessity. The blades on my jointer and work just fine (not great, but they get the job done). It was extremely easy to install even without having instructions (none are included). The new Byrd head is sweet - no doubt about it, but it's not a necessity. If you face joint on your jointer I would upgrade it before the planer. I think the most significant improvement I've noted is noise - it is MUCH quieter when jointing boards now.

I also purchased the Jet 22/44 for an upcoming kitchen remodel with lots of cabinet doors. I have found many more uses for it and can't believe how much time it saves. You just have to remember it's a sander not a planer! The model I bought came with built in rollers in the base (which I promptly removed and added an HTC mobile base). It's big and heavy and with the additional infeed/outfeed tables it looks like (and is the same size as) a small airplane. Dust collection is an absolute requirement. If space is at a premium, you may want to go with something smaller.

Be well,

Doc

[Steve knight]

myself even though I don't own a drum sander I doubt the new heads could be justified with your work. they will be nice but they may only save you blade changes.
Now me I work mosty tropical woods and my shelix head on my jointer is fantastic. instead of changing knives every month I can do it once in almost two years. no tearout either. I need to get a large planer to fit a head too. one side benefit is the shavings are not long so they compact far better too.

[Ed Garrett]

Nice to meet you, Ed. Welcome. You'll get a kick out of this place. I feel like I'm talking to myself.

Sincerely,
Ed Garrett
Tallahassee, FL

[Edward Garrett]

All of this feedback is great - exactly what I was looking for....I can tell I am going to get lots out of SMC for years to come!Just to answer some of the questions so far: I have the Delta 1.5HP DC....I do not typically work with veneers or figured woods, although I do use curly maple every once in a while.This has definitely opened my eyes to the belt sander option...I am going to start the research now! One (additional) question: are there any pro's or cons of the "open end" type drum sanders, i.e. getting both sides "even" (sorry for the rookie question :))? It looks like I could get more capacity for the $$ with this style.Thanks again everyone - I am very impressed , pleased and humbled with the SMC community....I am looking forward to years of lessons learned!

[Joe Chritz]

Welcome.

I am of the opinion (opinion being key here) that it is better to have three very serviceable tools than two premium tools. The planer and jointer are fine with straight knives, although a shelix is an upgrade. Personally I would get the drum sander and upgrade to the shelix at a later date.

There are lots of things a drum sander (or widebelt, mmm more better) is great for. Panel doors, end grain cutting boards, veneer, etc. Plus the drum sander can be used to clean up crazy grain woods that the shelix would really help with.

I just purchased the grizzly 24" sander and while it has very low hours I already can see it will be a very nice addition.

For $1500 you could have a drum sander and 8" shelix if you could find a used unit somewhere.

Joe

[Mike Cutler]

Edward

First off, as everyone else has, I'd like to welcome you to Sawmill Creek.

Like Steve, I use mostly oily tropical hardwoods, so I'd go for the shelix heads personally, but I also have two drum sanders. A 26" Steel City dual drum sander and a Performax 16-32 single drum sander. So that's not an objective position.

For the type of work you outlined in your initial post. I would recommend a dual drum sander. ( We'd all like to have a widebelt sander, but the $$$ is a bit much for hobby work.:eek:,;)).

Having put a lot of long, wide pieces of material through both of my sanders. I can tell you that it's much easier and faster with the 26" Steel City than the Performax 16-32, which is a nice sander by the way, so don't get me wrong about it. If you anticipate that you will be focusing on tables, desks, and cabinets and such. You'll be better off with a larger dual drum sander.

But,,, This leads to slight problem. I have a 1.5 HP, Jet DC1100 dust collector, and it isn't big enough to keep up with my Steel City. It does keep up with my Performax. So you will be looking at a new DC, eventually,if you go to a larger dual drum sander.

The drum sander you picked, Grizzly 1066R is a fine sander, but it wouldn't be my choice. I'd be looking at the G1066Z for the variable speed feed motor it ships with. This can be a fairly important feature down the line. You want to be able to adjust feed speed depending on the type of wood. I'm fairly certain that I have my Steel City sander set at < 1/2 the feed rate of the 11 feet/min fixed feed rate of the G1066R.
As far as the minimum material thickness, a sled can be made to sand material less than the 1/8' thickness Grizzly spec's. So don't let that discourage you one way or the other.
Both machines also come shipped with 5hp motors, so the circuit requirements are the same.

Given the future projects you have planned. I think you would be better served with the dual drum sander personally.

Once again. Welcome to Sawmill Creek.

Mike

[Joe Jensen]

I had a decent drum sander (got the Delta 18/36 for about $800) before I had a good planer, and I use it more than the 20" PM planer by a long shot. I use a shop vac for DC at the moment, and I really find that the sander is invaluable.

For instance, when I do rough stiles/rails out of resawn 6/4 lumber, I run them all through the drum sander in batches to get final thickness and finish, and aside from a light touch with the ROS here and there, they're ready to go! Could I use the planer? Sure! But it's MUCH easier (and cheaper!) to drop a new roll of sandpaper on a drum than to sharpen/change/reset 4x20" planer knives.

Doing veneers, resaw work, table tops...whatever, It's a joy to use. It's got the thickness capability to do large pieces, but you can get really creative about what's possible, and pretty soon you're sanding everything in sight. If it's flat, it can be drum-sanded.

Maybe if I'd started with a good planer, I'd be more apt to use it in most situations, but from when I've seen, a planer can really DESTROY a project with snipe or a catch that shatters your piece. This won't happen with a drum sander. Light passes, appropriate grit, good setup, and a good sander will eliminate the possibility of doing anything wrong. Also, you have to admit that the reality is, you don't own a 36" or 44" planer. So, you'll be limited unless you plan on doing a lot of hand finishing, scraping, etc. Not bad, by any means, but sure is easier to flip and run through the DS.

I'm still a beginner, and I appreciate the time I have while running things through the DS to think about my project, get a good look at the grain for orientation, or not have to worry about thicknessing.

As far as portability, mine doesn't take up TOO much room, and it's on a home-built mobile cart. The only thing I'd warn of is to take care that whatever you get allows you to build a simple extension setup. Mine, because the platen moves up and down, not the head, is a royal pain to set up for large, heavy pieces - the table extensions have to be adjusted along with the platen - so, every time you adjust the width, you need to adjust your extensions. Again, more time to think and plan, but it can get to be annoying.

I'd go with the DS. The new heads would probably be a valuable addition later, but a new tool is a new tool, and unless you're doing crazy figured stuff, I would guess (please don't bash me, guys!) that the average hobbyist would have good luck with a properly set up planer/jointer with straight knives. I'm not quite average, and mine work fine as is.

Good luck with your choice!

Conner, I am considering a thickness sander for making thick shop sawn veneer. I currently have a Powermatic Model 100 with a Byrd head. Can you say more about why you are using the sander to bring wood to final thickness instead of the planer? Is that because of tearout with the planer, or something else? From all I've read on the commercial forums, drum sanders are SLOW. I have a friend who has a performax with a 2 or 3HP motor, and it's WAY SLOW.

I prep the stock for panels to be perfectly and square so panels are really good coming out of the clamps. I can see where folks use a sander to clean up glueups, but are they really as flat as when coming off a planer?

You mention using the planer for final sizing of rails and styles. Can you really control the thickness that closely with a sander? I've always thought the performax was more of a finish sanding tool, and not a dimensioning tool? Is there a different sander I should look at?

[Edward Garrett]

This afternoon, after much hand-wringing and anxiousness, I placed an order for the Accura 5HP 25" dual drum sander (I had wanted the 3HP at $100 less but they had sold out). The Accura is similar in size and function to the Steel City 26". This is quite a large outlay of $$ for me, and I am somewhat anxious about purchasing a major tool without actually getting "hands-on" beforehand.

The folks at Hamilton Tool - Fred and Phil - have been excellent to work with so far....they have been very patient and accommodating as I have asked questions over the past 3 weeks.

I will keep SMC updated with my experience and expected tool gloat!

[Terry Teadtke]

So if I’m following this thread correctly, general advice would be to take the money saved by using traditional knives rather than the shelix type heads and use that money towards a duel belt sander? Correct?

[Joe Jensen]

So if I’m following this thread correctly, general advice would be to take the money saved by using traditional knives rather than the shelix type heads and use that money towards a duel belt sander? Correct?

I think there are two primary camps.
1) Those with drum sanders and either no planer or a planer with straight knives.
2) Those with a planer with a Byrd head.

I have a very good planer with a Byrd head. I'm fanatical about setting up tools, and I ran the Powermatic planer for 14 years with straight knives. It would take me 4 hours with a dial indicator to get the knives set, but the results were amazing (until the knives dulled). I bought the Byrd to reduce tearout and to stop setting knives. I'm thrilled. IMHO its the best $900 I've spent in my shop. Now, if the planer is not really well set up, it's a disaster, and a planer with dull knives is a disaster. I suspect them more than one lover of drum sanders has been using a planer that is poorly adjusted. Or maybe using a table top lunch box style planer. Those are no faster than a drum sander. Also, it seems that most people here use planers and drum sanders to flatten glued up panels and face frames. Production shops do this on wide belt sanders to save time. This works really well with those 10-30HP wide belt sanders. I've helped a friend with a 2 or 3HP Performax, and I can't imagine doing that all the time on a hobbiest class machine. Tons and tons of passes per panel.

I take a different approach. I prep my stock perfectly flat and square. when I glue up panels, the are flat and only need light ROS sanding. My face frame stock is also flat and straight, and I don't have to "level" the joints with a sander as the stock is all the same thickness. In my approach, I always start with rough sawn wood, and I have a jointer and planer that are well adjusted with sharp knives. I don't know if the sander method is faster, but I have to imagine that the drum sander leaves some pretty bad scratches, especially when you run a face frame through it with 1/2 of the members running cross grain.

I've been considering a drum sander to help make my own veneers. I now have a beefy bandsaw, but I think the sheets need sanding before I use them.

I've asked his question earlier in the thread but I didn't get an answer. How does one control the thickness with a drum sander. With my planer I can very precisely control thickness. Does the drum sander only remove a few thousands per pass? I assume that if I set the sander, ran the panel and measured, and then re-ran the panel without adjusting the sander, the panel would get thinner after the second pass. Do the sander users just measure after each pass to get a glue up to the final thickness?

[Al Willits]

"""""""""
I am of the opinion (opinion being key here) that it is better to have three very serviceable tools than two premium tools. The planer and jointer are fine with straight knives, although a shelix is an upgrade. Personally I would get the drum sander and upgrade to the shelix at a later date.
""""""""

I'm in this camp, as a fairly new woodworker I have a 8" jointer and 15" planer both with standard blades, they have caused me no reason to change blades yet, I just got the 22-44 drum sander and use it all the time, should have bought one a long time ago.
For the hobbist I'd go open ended as a 50" timesaver is more than most have room or money for.

Al

[Peter Quinn]

The shelix heads are nice for avoiding tearout on figured woods and they sure cut down on planer knife change time. Quieter too. I'm pretty good at setting up my planer (standard knives), takes 30-45min max to change knives, but its not the most fun I've ever had. If dense hardwood is eating your HSS you can get carbide or carbide tipped knives. I wouldn't consider a Byrd head 'essential', and I'd probably add it to the jointer before the planer.

I was a mechanic in a custom door shop that had a 37" digital drive widebelt and a 24" digital drive spiral head planer. Big industrial machines both. Used em every day for years. You set that planer to .746", you got .746". But a planer is a planer and a sander is a sander. They are a powerful team with different roles. We never used the sander to roughly 'dimension' stock. A 20HP widebelt is designed to take off .010"-.015" per pass depending on width of the work piece, type of wood, feed rate and grit of the belt. With a digital drive and motor power meter you know exactly what you are removing and how hard the machine is working. An industrial planer can take .250" per pass no sweat....trying to take off 0625" on a 30" panel will stop most widebelts dead. I saw guys stop that big horse dead trying to grind down maple countertops, and it ain't pretty. Takes about 12 passes to get out the burns from one stall.

In my own shop I have a performax 22-44 pro open ended drum. It sets up accurate enough to sand 40" panels with barely a witness line in the middle. It needs a dedicated 20A circuit and under load it uses close to every amp. Don't even plug in an electric tooth brush or the breaker pops. Just like the mighty widebelt, it is designed to take light passes, .008"-.012" per pass. It is slower than a widebelt but not by much. I would not try to do industrial panel production with this tool, but its a fine machine for a small shop or serious hobbiest.

What do I use it for? Precision dimensioning with a set of dial calipers. Its great for getting the bandsaw marks out of shop made veneer. For loose tennons and splines I like it BETTER than a wide belt. I do sand glued up panels with it to remove any little joint lines and achieve very good flatness, but the panels have to be pretty darn good to begin with for quick results. Its nice for removing planer marks when I'm making trim (moldings, casings, etc.) I avoid sanding glued up doors because the cross grain scratches it puts in the rails are a lot of work to fix. Problem is for clear finishes it is NOT a finishing tool.

Drum or widebelt sanders both leave the wood with an even but noticable scratch pattern. For fine work you have to move on to a ROS, card scraper or smooth plane depending on your prediliction. Right off the machine the wood looks dull and lifeless. If you're using georgeous figured wood than it deserves better.

[Edward Garrett]

So if I’m following this thread correctly, general advice would be to take the money saved by using traditional knives rather than the shelix type heads and use that money towards a duel belt sander? Correct?

Terry - yes, that is what I gleaned from the feedback here.

[Joe Jensen]

[quote=Peter Quinn;780444] .008"-.012" per pass. It is slower than a widebelt but not by much. I would not try to do industrial panel production with this tool, but its a fine machine for a small shop or serious hobbiest.

What do I use it for? Precision dimensioning with a set of dial calipers. Its great for getting the bandsaw marks out of shop made veneer. For loose tennons and splines I like it BETTER than a wide belt. quote]

Peter, this is the kind of info I am looking for. I don't see myself doing wide stuff. But I really want one for veneer. How controlable is the thickness. Is it really consistent everywhere on the panel? I assume this is important for veneer. Also, if you set the sander, and run the panel twice without resetting the sander, does the panel get .008" thinner on the second pass?

thanks...joe

[Al Willits]

""""""""
Also, if you set the sander, and run the panel twice without resetting the sander, does the panel get .008" thinner on the second pass?
"""""
If your setting are to take .008" off, not in my exprience, it will remove more wood though.
I was just using it to make inlays for the TV stand I'm making, the inlays are straight and about 1/8" wide, I cut the strips slightly thicker than the groove and use the drum sander to final fit, when I get to almost the right thickness I just run the wood though again at the same setting, it takes just enough to make a nice fit, but not as much as the original setting.

Al

[Peter Quinn]

Hey Joe...sorry for the late reply. Yes, it is very consistent across its width. The thickness from one end of the drum to the other is within .004"-.006", closer than a lot of plywood I have seen lately. You may get more accuracy with a closed end drum sander if you don't need the width.

I use test pieces and dial calipers to gauge how much I am taking off per pass. I think the manual says one complete revolution of the height adjustment wheel on the performax equals .050", a little light of 1/16".

I typically start sanding with the drum just touching the wood and turn the height wheel a little less than a quarter turn per pass to yield 008-.012". With both drum sanders and widebelts an additional pass through the machine without adjusting the height will take off a little material, though less than the original pass, typically .003-.005". This is helpful for precision fitting things like inlays and splines.

At the door shop I worked at we would purposefully pass stock twice through the final height setting as the last very light pass tended to yield a smoother finish with less scratching. Keep in mind that wood species (hardness), feed rate and sand paper grit all affect results at this level of precision. A good set of dial calipers is indispensible for accuracy.

Hope this helps.

[Kevin Groenke]

Hey Joe,

You can use your planer to make veneer as thin as 1/32" thick. All you need is a sled with dovetail cleats (glued on) at both ends and carpet tape (or spray glue) on the sled. You need to "de-tack" the carpet tape (we just wipe a paper tower over it a couple times) so the veneer can be removed, the sled can be used several times before refreshing the carpet tape. Make your stock slightly longer than the distance between the dovetailed cleats and the stock "locks-in" between the cleats when you "snap" it into the sled.

You'll still want to take lighter passes as the material gets thinner so that it doesn't explode. I have done this with a milled sled to make stock for bent, tapered, laminations: worked great.

-kg