Festool Discounts at WW Shows?

[tom cooper]

It seems that any Festool dealer, on-line or local, has the same tools at the same price and even sites that offer 10% discounts off your complete shopping basket are required to exclude all Festool products! Normally I would not tolerate this type of manufacturer snobbery, BUT I am convinced I need the model ETS125 ROS and so I have almost saved enough to buy it. Does the Festool booth at the yearly woodworking shows offer any type of discount on their products?

Thanks.

[Dino Drosas]

I have never seen or been offered any discounts by Festool at any show that I ever attended. The only discounts offered are those that have tools bunbled together as a package; example - vacuum plus tool. These deals are listed in their catalog,

[Tom Sherman]

Tom when I worked at Woodcraft we were told that Festool would not authorize discounts for any reason.

[Dave Falkenstein]

The ONLY way you can get a discount on Festool tools is to buy reconditioned tools from Festool-USA. The selection is very limited and they seldom have inventory. All Festool dealers and retailers sell the tools for the same price. You can save shipping and sales tax by buying on line. There are lots of excellent online dealers, but I usually buy from Bob Marino:

http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/

Used Festool products STILL carry the factory warranty from the original date of purchase. Festool dealers and retailers are required to register sales with the company, so that all tools sold are on file at Festool-USA. If you can find one used, it will be treated as if you bought it new by Festool. Don't know of any other tool company that deos that!

[Ed Brady]

Years ago fair trade laws allowed manufacturers to set the price (or minimum price) for their products so that retailers could not provide competitive prices. I believe they referred to this as price maintenance -- a euphemism for price fixing. I believe all of those laws were repealed by the 80s.

Woodworking is the only area where I have seen price fixing recently, but I am sure there are other areas, too. Festool and SawStop have chosen to fix prices by requiring retailers to sell at full price and I assume they do this by refusing to provide their products to retailers who don't cooperate. My guess is that they do this as much for branding as for profit.

I think of this as a form of extortion where the consumer is denied the benefit of competition. Personally, I'll do whatever I can to avoid buying products priced in this way.

Ed Brady

[Bob Childress]

Sigh. :( Every time this comes up someone always says Price Fixing and no competition.

Price Fixing is when one manufacturer conspires with another one (or several) to set prices. Festool and Sawstop are not conspiring with anyone to set prices, only with themselves. Don't want to pay? OK. Buy a Metabo, Bosch, DeWalt, Porter-Cable, Jet, Delta, Powermatic, Grizzly, ad nauseum. They are all competitors to Festool and Sawstop. Your choices are practically unlimited.

If I invent a widget and I want to sell it for a particular price, that's my business. If no one buys it, I made a bad decision. But I am no Price Fixer. :)

[Greg Just]

Minimum pricing is very common on high end products, especially new ones in high demand. This practice is very common with high end appliances. The only way to get any kind of "discount" is to get something thrown in with the deal like supplies or service associated with the purchase. It sucks, but it happens all the time. In a few years, when Festool has some competition, they will relax this policy. For now, take it or leave it! :mad:

[Ed Brady]

Sigh. :( Every time this comes up someone always says Price Fixing and no competition.

Price Fixing is when one manufacturer conspires with another one (or several) to set prices.




You are quite right, Bob. I used "price fixing" as a generic term and should not have equated it to price maintenance nor implied collusion -- plus true price fixing IS illegal. Nonetheless, the result (price maintenance) is not good for the consumer. And, yes, there are other places to take my business which I mentioned is my objective.

EDB

[Eric Haycraft]

They also allow discounts on demo/display items when that product is phased out/replaced with a newer model. But those are hard to get and rarely the tool that you are looking for.

[Pat Germain]

Indeed, there are many consumer products where the prices are fixed and fixed hard. Just try to negotiate on a new Saturn. Try to find discounts on All-Clad cookware. Every sale on kitchen tools I've ever seen says, "Excludes All-Clad".

Until the US Dollar starts to rise against the Euro, Festool products will remain very expensive. Thus, it's going to be big bucks just for a plastic drawer to hold and stack Festool tools. At least with Festool, it would seem you get what you pay for. I would expect their power tools to last a very long time. And their designs are outstanding.

I used to be a Porter-Cable guy, but since that brand is going downhill fast, I might start saving and looking hard at Festool. At least I know no matter where I buy them, the pice will be the same; high. :eek: That sure beats buying another brand only to find out it's junk.

[Dave Falkenstein]

...I think of this as a form of extortion where the consumer is denied the benefit of competition. Personally, I'll do whatever I can to avoid buying products priced in this way.

Ed Brady

To even suggest that Festool does not have competition is ludicrous. EZSmart and others certainly compete with Festool in the guided rail systems market. Recently Dewalt and Makita have announced plunge circular saws on a guide rail system, currently available in Canada and Europe, and expected soon in the USA. These saws even LOOK like a Festool saw. The Fein vac is a direct competitor of Festool's. And on and on. If you don't like Festool's pricing policy, then don't buy their tools.

[William Nimmo]

I attended a show a few years back, and was ready to purchase the ts 55 and vacuum combo. I was actually relieved when they told me to come to their store the following week and buy it then. There was no show special price and that way I didnt have to battle the crowds lugging the boxes. Although Festool prices are high, the tools are worth every penny, and I find it comforting that I don't have to hunt downt the best deal when I do decide to add to my Green and black arsenal.

[russ bransford]

Couple of points. Festool makes their money off of the dealer. The profit is already made. The dealer's selling price being set allows the playing field to be level. This keeps the pipeline flowing in all driections, allowing the marketing to pull the product through and allowing the manufacturer to dictate the course of action at the dealer level. This gives the dealer less control, but more margin.
The main point is everyone is always more concerned about getting a deal than getting something they want /need.
Compared to other hobbies, woodworking is a "great deal". Trying to shave a few bucks off of a tool that will live longer than the owner just sounds strange sometimes.
Just find a tool that you like and a dealer that you trust and in the long run you'll spend less and enjoy more.

[Gary Keedwell]

Couple of points. Festool makes their money off of the dealer. The profit is already made. The dealer's selling price being set allows the playing field to be level. This keeps the pipeline flowing in all driections, allowing the marketing to pull the product through and allowing the manufacturer to dictate the course of action at the dealer level. This gives the dealer less control, but more margin.
The main point is everyone is always more concerned about getting a deal than getting something they want /need.
Compared to other hobbies, woodworking is a "great deal". Trying to shave a few bucks off of a tool that will live longer than the owner just sounds strange sometimes.
Just find a tool that you like and a dealer that you trust and in the long run you'll spend less and enjoy more.
Real good post Russ...especially the part about getting a "great deal" instead of getting something they want /need.;)
Gary

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I asked a dealer at a show if there was a show discount and was very rudely treated. So rudely in fact that I crossed them from my list.

While in under-grad there was a couple from Iceland living in the same housing unit as us. The guy was the single most loudly: haughty, self assured, arrogant sob I'd ever met. This guy at the show was about like that. Looking down his nose, sneering, displaying what I could only take as a jeering insulting persona.

[Gary Keedwell]

I asked a dealer at a show if there was a show discount and was very rudely treated. So rudely in fact that I crossed them from my list.

While in under-grad there was a couple from Iceland living in the same housing unit as us. The guy was the single most loudly: haughty, self assured, arrogant sob I'd ever met. This guy at the show was about like that. Looking down his nose, sneering, displaying what I could only take as a jeering insulting persona.
Wow Cliff, which drama school did you attend as an under-grad? LOL
Only kidding now Cliff...it is not a flame....:eek::eek::D

Gary

[Jesse Cloud]

I wish Festools were cheaper, but they seem to be one brand thats not part of the rush to hit bottom first. Delta, PC, Jet, PM, Bosch - all seem to get worse year by year. I am a firm believer in the 'buy quality,cry once - buy crap cry over and over' idea.

I get sucked into the 'looking for a deal' mood too, and I have some stuff in the shop that doesn't work very well, but I think I got a good deal on it.... :confused: I'm slowly putting that stuff on craigslist to make room for tools that do what they say or at least some wood.:rolleyes:

[John Michael]

The only show deals that Festool offered ended roughly 2-3 yrs ago when the dollar started its slide against the euro. Before that they offered a quantity discount of 10% if you bought 5 tools at once.

[Ed Brady]

To even suggest that Festool does not have competition is ludicrous. EZSmart and others certainly compete with Festool in the guided rail systems market. Recently Dewalt and Makita have announced plunge circular saws on a guide rail system, currently available in Canada and Europe, and expected soon in the USA. These saws even LOOK like a Festool saw. The Fein vac is a direct competitor of Festool's. And on and on. If you don't like Festool's pricing policy, then don't buy their tools.

Gee, Dave. I'm pretty sure that is what I said in my original post and reiterated in my reply to Bob. And FYI I just bought a Makita 5008 as part of my EZ Smart system. I'll hook it up to my fine Fein Turbo II.

EDB

[Gary Keedwell]

Gee, Dave. I'm pretty sure that is what I said in my original post and reiterated in my reply to Bob. And FYI I just bought a Makita 5008 as part of my EZ Smart system. I'll hook it up to my fine Fein Turbo II.

EDB
The market is a wonderful thing, Ed. You mentioned Saw Stop and Festool as products that have prices that are "fixed". A good productwill demand a good price. People who want that product will pay the price....what is wrong with that? Supply and demand. The same thing happened in the real estate market. When the supply was short and the demand was high...prices went up. Now the supply is high and prices went down.
If the demand for Festool went down....the price would go down. The only problem with that scenario would be that Festool would have to lower their price....and to make a profit they would have to lower production costs and therefore would have to lower machined part's costs and then to do that they would have to lower the tolerances on the parts to make them cheaper and then their is the quality control issue ..........well you see where this is going??????
I think their price demands are fair if they keep the quality the same or better then it is now.:)

Gary

[John Thompson]

I was at the Atlanta WW Show yesterday. Not only were there no discounts for Festool as has been stated, no local dealer for them was at the show that I saw. I did not see a Woodcraft booth, even though with the rapid pace and tight spacing allotted I could have possibly over-looked a Woodcraft booth.

I was hoping to see a demo of the Domino, even though I have no intention of purchasing one with the capability I already have. Sort of a shame that the larger vendors don't show at the local shows and wait till the Show of All Shows at IWF in Atlanta every other year and the Las Vegas Show that odd year.

But.. no show to show and definitely no discounts is the reality...

Sarge..

[Daniel Berlin]

Years ago fair trade laws allowed manufacturers to set the price (or minimum price) for their products so that retailers could not provide competitive prices. I believe they referred to this as price maintenance -- a euphemism for price fixing. I believe all of those laws were repealed by the 80s.
Ed Brady


Speaking as a lawyer:
They weren't repealed, the same law has been on the books since the days of Standard Oil of NJ (You are looking for the Sherman act).
What has happened is that over the years, the supreme court has made doing these things not "per se" a violation of the law. In other words, it used to be a violation of the law to price fix no matter why, where, etc, you did it.
All you had to show was that they were price fixing, and you won.
Now, since various supreme court decisions (including one last year), they are analyzed under what is known as "the rule of reason".
IE you have to show that the price fixing is unreasonable.

It is usually incredibly hard to make out such a case, and incredibly expensive. As much as lawyers are overpaid, in cases like this, they front millions of dollars in expenses with (now) only a small percentage chance of winning. For most, it is no longer worth the cost to take on the cases.

[Daniel Berlin]

Sigh. :( Every time this comes up someone always says Price Fixing and no competition.

If I invent a widget and I want to sell it for a particular price, that's my business. If no one buys it, I made a bad decision. But I am no Price Fixer. :)

Actually, you are.
This is the difference between horizontal resale price maintenance (ie agreements among your competitors), and vertical resale price maintenance (ie agreements between distributors and manufacturers).

They are both considered price fixing (or more generally, resale price maintenance).

[Dave Falkenstein]

Gee, Dave. I'm pretty sure that is what I said in my original post and reiterated in my reply to Bob. And FYI I just bought a Makita 5008 as part of my EZ Smart system. I'll hook it up to my fine Fein Turbo II.

EDB

Gee Ed, what you said was, "I think of this as a form of extortion where the consumer is denied the benefit of competition." And what I said was, "To even suggest that Festool does not have competition is ludicrous." Yes, both of us said some other things as well. My statement regarding competition was in reply to yours. Your purchases are examples of the competitive market working well.

[John Skibo]

The only deal you can get is free shipping from mail order!
Steel City has the same price fix except they have rebates!

[Bob Cooper]

So how would the WW world look if all the vendors mandated sale price? (not taking sides, just stirring the pot). :)

[Dave Falkenstein]

So how would the WW world look if all the vendors mandated sale price? (not taking sides, just stirring the pot). :)

Perhaps more companies would have a selling price policy if they could figure out a way to make it work for them. It obviously works for some - Festool, Saw Stop, Steel City, Jet - to name just a few. Try buying a Sleep Number bed at a discount. Many companies that make quality products have a fixed selling price policy.

[Glenwood Morris]

I love how the people who decry Festool for protecting their distributors from each other, by not allowing them to cut their own margins until they don't make enough to provide good service, are the same ones who will run out and buy the first asian made knock-off of a design pioneered by festool or any other euro manufacturer.

I'm also not bashing asian manufacturers here, but there is no need for some "high horse/ground" of "they deny competition" when you're going to turn around and support the copyists who are knocking off the real innovators.

If you innovate, you have the right to charge a premium. If you use distributors, you have the right to dictate prices in your contracts if you wish. The only people who take issue with this are cheapskates in my experience.

[Bob Marino]

The ONLY way you can get a discount on Festool tools is to buy reconditioned tools from Festool-USA. The selection is very limited and they seldom have inventory. All Festool dealers and retailers sell the tools for the same price. You can save shipping and sales tax by buying on line. There are lots of excellent online dealers, but I usually buy from Bob Marino:

http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/

Used Festool products STILL carry the factory warranty from the original date of purchase. Festool dealers and retailers are required to register sales with the company, so that all tools sold are on file at Festool-USA. If you can find one used, it will be treated as if you bought it new by Festool. Don't know of any other tool company that deos that!


Dave,

You are correct, except that neither Festool, nor the dealers are now selling used/demo or refurbished tools.

Bob

[Bob Marino]

The only show deals that Festool offered ended roughly 2-3 yrs ago when the dollar started its slide against the euro. Before that they offered a quantity discount of 10% if you bought 5 tools at once.

Actually, the multi tool discounts were 3 tools - 10%, 5 tools -15% off the price of the tools. The multi tool discounts were replaced/changed with free shipping.

Bob

[Greg Pavlov]

The market is a wonderful thing, Ed. You mentioned Saw Stop and Festool as products that have prices that are "fixed". A good productwill demand a good price. People who want that product will pay the price....what is wrong with that? Supply and demand. The same thing happened in the real estate market. When the supply was short and the demand was high...prices went up. Now the supply is high and prices went down. .......
Gary

I am willing to bet that if Festool didn't fix retail prices (that is, force all dealers to sell the items at exactly the same price), there in fact would be cheaper Festool tools from some retailers. The current situation has very little to do with supply and demand.

[Bob Childress]

Actually, you are.
This is the difference between horizontal resale price maintenance (ie agreements among your competitors), and vertical resale price maintenance (ie agreements between distributors and manufacturers).

They are both considered price fixing (or more generally, resale price maintenance).

Perhaps so. But the Sherman Act was aimed at two things- conspiratorial trusts and monopolies, both of which will lead to price fixing in the classic sense. Festool has neither, and as you mentioned, the Supreme Court has upheld the right of manufacturers to enter into price maintenance agreements with their distributors if it meets The Rule of Reason. As far as I can tell just on the surface, Festo meets that rule and does not restrain trade in the common sense of that phrase.

[Greg Pavlov]

....Although Festool prices are high, the tools are worth every penny, and I find it comforting that I don't have to hunt downt the best deal when I do decide to add to my Green and black arsenal.
Nothing requires you to hunt down the best deal for any product: that is something that individuals decided for themselves (when the manufacturer or distributor permits price variations...)

[Greg Pavlov]

..... The main point is everyone is always more concerned about getting a deal than getting something they want/ need......
My father grew up during the depression and was in a family that had a hard time getting enough to eat during the worst years. He was always very much of a buy-only-what-you-need type of guy, AND he was always concerned about getting the best deal. Why not??? I know that a heck of a lot of us have the luxury to be cavalier about the prices we pay for many of the goods we buy, but there is nothing intrinsically positive or good about that other than that it is convenient.

[Bob Childress]

He was always very much of a buy-only-what-you-need type of guy, AND he was always concerned about getting the best deal. Why not??? I

Actually, quite admirable. If you approach it in that order, you are right on the money--first determine what you need, then look for the best deal on it. Excellent. But I think sometimes people buy things on the cheap, "hoping" they will "do what they need." And when they don't, the "deal" is no deal at all.

[John Michael]

Thanks Bob for the correction, what you posted is what I originally recalled, but when I was writing it it didn't sound right. Not knowing then how many Festool products I would end up owning it makes me upset that I never took advantage of those price breaks while they existed.

Bob do you perhaps know the yearly total unit sales of Festool products in the US?

[Ed Brady]

This has certainly been a lively, entertaining and enlightening discussion.

Let me say that I was not suggesting that the Festool folks are doing anything illegal but rather that I do not like it. When I suggested that they diminish competition I should have specified that I meant within their own product line. A dealer who wants to increase his sales cannot use price as a discriminator and try to improve his business volume. Maybe I just rebel against rules, but that doesn't seem right. I like the idea that, for example, two BMW dealers will compete for my business.

Anyway, as Dave suggested I'll just look for other quality brands to fill my needs.

EDB

[Bob Marino]

Thanks Bob for the correction, what you posted is what I originally recalled, but when I was writing it it didn't sound right. Not knowing then how many Festool products I would end up owning it makes me upset that I never took advantage of those price breaks while they existed.

Bob do you perhaps know the yearly total unit sales of Festool products in the US?

John,

I honestly don't have that info, but Festool is still in its' infancy in the USA. Five - six years ago, there were perhaps a few dozen dealers, now there are over 300.. and that list is growing daily.


Bob

[Greg Pavlov]

Actually, quite admirable. If you approach it in that order, you are right on the money--first determine what you need, then look for the best deal on it. Excellent. But I think sometimes people buy things on the cheap, "hoping" they will "do what they need." And when they don't, the "deal" is no deal at all.
I very much agree, except when someone has to make do because that is all they can afford. I've known some folks like that who were also able to make very good use of stuff that most of us would call "junk," tho they obviously had to put more time & effort into it.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Dave,
You are correct, except that neither Festool, nor the dealers are now selling used/demo or refurbished tools.
Bob

Bob - Thanks for the correction. I obviously based what I said on history. I wonder what Festool-USA does with all of those returned tools. Oh yeah, I forgot - they don't get many returned tools. :)


...A dealer who wants to increase his sales cannot use price as a discriminator and try to improve his business volume...EDB

Ed - another effective way for a dealer to differentiate himself from the rest of the sellers is to offer superior service. Bob Marino is an example of a Festool dealer that sells a bunch of tools at the same price as everyone else by providing superior customer service. Personally, I'd just as soon have good service, even if the price is a bit higher. How many posts do we see here about the reputation of low price sellers? Reliability, quality and service are just as (or more) important to many people as price.

[Gary Keedwell]

My father grew up during the depression and was in a family that had a hard time getting enough to eat during the worst years. He was always very much of a buy-only-what-you-need type of guy, AND he was always concerned about getting the best deal. Why not??? I know that a heck of a lot of us have the luxury to be cavalier about the prices we pay for many of the goods we buy, but there is nothing intrinsically positive or good about that other than that it is convenient.
Alright....I'll be the one to ask the question. What has the economy of 70 years ago have to do with the price of tools today? Also, I have alot of tools that broke down and I either gave away or through out because I thought they would do the job at hand. I personally know someone who buys cheap tools and complains about quality and he goes on luxury cruises whenever the mood strikes his fancy.
Sorry for the Rant....and I apologize if I ruffled anybodies feathers.

Gary

[Gary Keedwell]

I am willing to bet that if Festool didn't fix retail prices (that is, force all dealers to sell the items at exactly the same price), there in fact would be cheaper Festool tools from some retailers. The current situation has very little to do with supply and demand.
All I meant was ....if the demand for Festool is high, there is no reason to lower the price. And if they did lower their price...would the quality go down to compete with other brands.
In my opinion, the demand for low prices is driving the quality DOWN.
Gary

[tom cooper]

Well I didn't think a simple question about Festool discounts would collect such an interesting variety of opinions and emotion. But the lively discussion has helped me conclude that one Festool sander is not worth the money demanded. I will get the same service and reliability from any other "brand name" $60 dollar sander, although they may not provide the same comfort during use. Beyond the comfort factor, there is no advantage to justify the cost. Thanks all, you have helped me save a couple of hundred bucks!

[Greg Pavlov]

Alright....I'll be the one to ask the question. What has the economy of 70 years ago have to do with the price of tools today? Also, I have alot of tools that broke down and I either gave away or through out because I thought they would do the job at hand. I personally know someone who buys cheap tools and complains about quality and he goes on luxury cruises whenever the mood strikes his fancy.
What has the economy of 70 yrs ago have to do with prices today? Not much. the subject was my father, and the reference was to put him in the context of being someone diametrically opposite to the guy you're talking about. And that was the point: people like the one in your example aren't necessarily the norm among people looking to save money. Some have to, others (like my father) did it (at least partly) as a result of their life experiences.

Sorry for the Rant....and I apologize if I ruffled anybodies feathers.

Gary

Maybe..... ;)

[Greg Pavlov]

All I meant was ....if the demand for Festool is high, there is no reason to lower the price. ....
Gary
You're right, tho in this case it's also "...and there is no reason to stop forcing all dealers to sell at those prices."

And if they did lower their price...would the quality go down to compete with other brands.
In my opinion, the demand for low prices is driving the quality DOWN. ....Maybe. My own view is that there has always been poor quality and good quality but what survives and what we see from the past is mainly the good, and that the bigger factor may be not that many people aren't spending a lot of money on power tools, it's that they want to have more of them than most woodworkers used to, so they don't want to/can't spend as much on any one of them. ???? I remember being in woodworking shops when I was a kid, and they seemed quite a bit plainer then machinery-wise (tho one guy had an awesome hand plane collection...)

[Gary Keedwell]

You're right, tho in this case it's also "...and there is no reason to stop forcing all dealers to sell at those prices."
Maybe. My own view is that there has always been poor quality and good quality but what survives and what we see from the past is mainly the good, and that the bigger factor may be not that many people aren't spending a lot of money on power tools, it's that they want to have more of them than most woodworkers used to, so they don't want to/can't spend as much on any one of them. ???? I remember being in woodworking shops when I was a kid, and they seemed quite a bit plainer then machinery-wise (tho one guy had an awesome hand plane collection...)
My background is manufacturing, both as a machinist and a quality control inspector. I have mingled with engineers, R&D people, marketing and ceo's and I know what happens when the talk turns to reducing costs.
There is no big hits in marketing or sales-people or the front office help. All the big hits go to the manufacturing costs of the product. That usually means blueprint revisions with open tolerances and cheaper materials. The results are an inferior product. It is the snowball effect....the brown-nosers in the company race each other to find ways to cut costs. Why use metal when plastic will do?
Gary

[Greg Pavlov]

.. But the lively discussion has helped me conclude that one Festool sander is not worth the money demanded. I will get the same service and reliability from any other "brand name" $60 dollar sander, although they may not provide the same comfort during use. Beyond the comfort factor, there is no advantage to justify the cost. Thanks all, you have helped me save a couple of hundred bucks!
I have two Bosch sanders that work very nicely, but I use Festool sanders most of the time for the superior dust control (and they do the job well too).

[Brice Burrell]

My background is manufacturing, both as a machinist and a quality control inspector. I have mingled with engineers, R&D people, marketing and ceo's and I know what happens when the talk turns to reducing costs.
There is no big hits in marketing or sales-people or the front office help. All the big hits go to the manufacturing costs of the product. That usually means blueprint revisions with open tolerances and cheaper materials. The results are an inferior product. It is the snowball effect....the brown-nosers in the company race each other to find ways to cut costs. Why use metal when plastic will do?
Gary


This is why I buy Festool products, no brown nosers trying to cut cost!

[Dave Falkenstein]

...I will get the same service and reliability from any other "brand name" $60 dollar sander, although they may not provide the same comfort during use. Beyond the comfort factor, there is no advantage to justify the cost. Thanks all, you have helped me save a couple of hundred bucks!

That is a very interesting conclusion. You mentioned service and reliability as equal (not, IMHO), comfort as apparently unimportant and cost. You did not mention dust collection, paper life or sanding speed, so I guess those are unimportant to you as well. Good luck.

[Gary Keedwell]

That is a very interesting conclusion. You mentioned service and reliability as equal (not, IMHO), comfort as apparently unimportant and cost. You did not mention dust collection, paper life or sanding speed, so I guess those are unimportant to you as well. Good luck.
Dave...You took the words right out of my mouth.:)

Gary

[Ed Brady]

My background is manufacturing, both as a machinist and a quality control inspector. I have mingled with engineers, R&D people, marketing and ceo's and I know what happens when the talk turns to reducing costs.
There is no big hits in marketing or sales-people or the front office help. All the big hits go to the manufacturing costs of the product. That usually means blueprint revisions with open tolerances and cheaper materials. The results are an inferior product. It is the snowball effect....the brown-nosers in the company race each other to find ways to cut costs. Why use metal when plastic will do?
Gary

I didn't hear anyone suggest that Festool lower their costs or their quality. But they are also specifying what the dealer's mark up will be and as an independent business person he should be able to make that decision. One might argue that a very high quality product is the one to buy at the best price. Some years ago my wife bought me an Omega watch from a reputable, but discount jeweler. I have never had a single problem with it, but we have gone back to that jeweler for other things and get treated very well.

Thanks to all for the many interesting perspectives!

EDB

[Greg Funk]

Let me say that I was not suggesting that the Festool folks are doing anything illegal but rather that I do not like it. When I suggested that they diminish competition I should have specified that I meant within their own product line. A dealer who wants to increase his sales cannot use price as a discriminator and try to improve his business volume. Maybe I just rebel against rules, but that doesn't seem right. I like the idea that, for example, two BMW dealers will compete for my business.

By fixing the dealer channel margin Festool feels they have better control over customer service levels. A high volume seller like Amazon is able to maintain a high level of customer service because they have invested heavily in technology and while their margins are low, their costs are lower than a small seller so they can maintain profitability without sacrificing customer service. What Festool doesn't need or want is resellers competing with each other on price. That approach may drive higher volumes but it will also impact customer service. There is no way around it for a smaller reseller. It might be fewer people on the phones, more reluctance to deal with warranty or customer returns or any number of issues that will end up negatively affecting Festool's Brand.

I have no inside knowledge of Festool but I believe they are similar to Fein: relatively small, privately held tool manufacturers. They build most if not all of their products in Germany with a relatively small workforce. They invest heavily in R&D and differentiate themselves by designing and producing innovative products for a niche market of demanding professionals and high end hobbyists. Their business model requires high product margins to support sufficient investment in R&D.

I'm quite sure that Festool could lower their product costs and selling prices and increase their volumes. But I suspect they have no interest in following that path. They own their own manufacturing facilities and have a finite capacity with limited short-term ability to ramp up to higher volumes. To handle higher volumes they would have two choices, build additional capacity or outsource. Building additional capacity is expensive, slow and risky if the expected volume doesn't materialize. Outsourcing is cost effective but managing quality is a challenge.

I suspect that Festool is comfortable servicing the niche they currently have and have setup their business model to allow for sustainable long-term profitable growth.

Personally, I think we all benefit from companies like Festool or Porsche. Even if you don't enjoy their products they are often the drivers of change amongst other vendors.

Sorry for the long-winded rant.

Greg

P.S. There is very little competition amongst BMW, Mercedes and Porsche dealers.

[Chris Parks]

An interesting topic and valid in every country that Festool is sold. We all decry the shutdown of domestic manufacturing in our respective affluent countries, what drove that? Discounting pure and simple. If we had been prepared to pay the costs commensurate with domestic manufacturing those products would still be made in our respective countries, not the PRC, Taiwan etc. Festool have seen this and decided they are not going down the same path, you want it, you pay for it. We all have machinary or products that, if they were to be made domestically we most probably could not afford. The choice was ours and we made that decision and it resulted in the movement to the Far East and the quality level we now have. It's your dollar in the end and you have to make the decision that suits you. We drove the manufacturers to where they are by chasing the best price, pretty simple isn't it?

[Bob Childress]

That is a very interesting conclusion. You mentioned service and reliability as equal (not, IMHO), comfort as apparently unimportant and cost. You did not mention dust collection, paper life or sanding speed, so I guess those are unimportant to you as well. Good luck.

Yep. I have re-read this thread and cannot for the life of me see how Tom reached that conclusion. :confused::confused:

[Bob Marino]

By fixing the dealer channel margin Festool feels they have better control over customer service levels. A high volume seller like Amazon is able to maintain a high level of customer service because they have invested heavily in technology and while their margins are low, their costs are lower than a small seller so they can maintain profitability without sacrificing customer service. What Festool doesn't need or want is resellers competing with each other on price. That approach may drive higher volumes but it will also impact customer service. There is no way around it for a smaller reseller. It might be fewer people on the phones, more reluctance to deal with warranty or customer returns or any number of issues that will end up negatively affecting Festool's Brand.

I have no inside knowledge of Festool but I believe they are similar to Fein: relatively small, privately held tool manufacturers. They build most if not all of their products in Germany with a relatively small workforce. They invest heavily in R&D and differentiate themselves by designing and producing innovative products for a niche market of demanding professionals and high end hobbyists. Their business model requires high product margins to support sufficient investment in R&D.

I'm quite sure that Festool could lower their product costs and selling prices and increase their volumes. But I suspect they have no interest in following that path. They own their own manufacturing facilities and have a finite capacity with limited short-term ability to ramp up to higher volumes. To handle higher volumes they would have two choices, build additional capacity or outsource. Building additional capacity is expensive, slow and risky if the expected volume doesn't materialize. Outsourcing is cost effective but managing quality is a challenge.

I suspect that Festool is comfortable servicing the niche they currently have and have setup their business model to allow for sustainable long-term profitable growth.

Personally, I think we all benefit from companies like Festool or Porsche. Even if you don't enjoy their products they are often the drivers of change amongst other vendors.

Sorry for the long-winded rant.

Greg

P.S. There is very little competition amongst BMW, Mercedes and Porsche dealers.

Greg,

I am not sure about Fein, but Festool is still not only a privately owned company, but a family owned company.

Bob

[Greg Funk]

An interesting topic and valid in every country that Festool is sold. We all decry the shutdown of domestic manufacturing in our respective affluent countries, what drove that? Discounting pure and simple. If we had been prepared to pay the costs commensurate with domestic manufacturing those products would still be made in our respective countries, not the PRC, Taiwan etc. Festool have seen this and decided they are not going down the same path, you want it, you pay for it. We all have machinary or products that, if they were to be made domestically we most probably could not afford. The choice was ours and we made that decision and it resulted in the movement to the Far East and the quality level we now have. It's your dollar in the end and you have to make the decision that suits you. We drove the manufacturers to where they are by chasing the best price, pretty simple isn't it?
I agree to some extent, however, I wouldn't lay the blame soley on consumers looking for a better price. There was also a fair amount of complacency on the part of NA manufacturers and an unwillingness to re-invest sufficient profits into developing new products. I like my Unisaw but really how much effort did Delta or whoever owned that product over the past 50 yrs invest into improving it - not much.

Greg

[Dave Falkenstein]

Yep. I have re-read this thread and cannot for the life of me see how Tom reached that conclusion. :confused::confused:

Price might be the governing factor??? Which is significant and certainly an important factor.

[tom cooper]

For those that questioned my conclusion, since you asked, I believe that the difference in dust control between the EQ125 and say, a Bosch when both are hooked to the same shop vac will perform similarly enough that I don't need to worry about it. Most of my work is done in the shop where I have other means to control or collect dust. When working in someone's home, I'll plan the work so that very little sanding is done inside the home - I'll take it outside if I have to. I don’t need to spend hours blending in joinery because my joinery is good – I practice at it. Even on an entire set of kitchen cabinets, I’ve averaged less than 6-hours devoted to sanding and those are not usually consecutive hours either. Otherwise all sanding is done beforehand at my shop. Perhaps I'm not doing the same fine furniture work that most Creekers are. When I work on furniture, then cabinet scrapers are my primary means to a finished article. If I had to refinish a Church full of pews, well that would be different, then I would immediately order a couple of Rotex’s

Have you ever looked inside a ROS? Is there any significant difference between the guts of a Festool and a Bosch or a Ridgid? They all consist of a motor, bearings, a means to oscillate and an impeller type exhaust wheel. What is the primary mode of failure for any sander? Most likely the bearings run dry from poor or no maintenance or cleaning. Or the motor windings have broken down and shorted out or the switch fails by dust overload and overheating. Maybe some have a small electronic control circuit that can also fail if dropped or abused. What is the mean-time-between failure for a Festool? What is the mean-time-between failure of a Bosch? No one here knows that answer. No one outside of the manufacturer can say or will say. I have only one data point for a ROS failure and that is my now defunct low tech B&D which worked fine for at least ten (maybe 12) years, but I kept up with cleaning inside and changing paper instead of leaning down harder. Consider this - now I can own two new Bosch's or two new Ridgid's (or one of each!!!) and alternate duty between and they will both live easy lives. This also means I will always have a backup right next to me in the event of a failure. That my friends is superior reliability because I will then have a system with built-in redundancy! no downtime and still at less than 54% of the initial cost of one Festool sander.

Sandpaper life? That seems to be more a function of the quality, type and grit of the paper used or surface worked on and less a function of the machine driving it. OK - I'll concede that the apparent superior dust extraction of a Festool w/shop vac may improve paper life because it minimizes caking and clogging. I generally will clear my paper with a belt sander cleaning stick if I need to stretch, but more often than not I'll opt for a new (Mirka) disc. I don't see this as a deal breaker because there is also a practical limit on how long ANY disc will last as they all depend on breaking down the abrasive granules to create new sharp edges until there is nothing left to breakdown.

Material removal rate? Another function more so of the paper type and grit but also a function of the stroke and orbit of the machine. Perhaps weight factors in here too. Does anyone know the difference between the Festool orbit speed & stroke and a Bosch or Ridgid orbit & stroke? Or the Dewalt? I do - and the differences are measured in 1/32" and the Festool is capable of 13000 rpm whereas the rest max out at 12000 rpm; not a deal breaker for me, I'll reach the finish line 45 seconds behind the rest of you and be happy about it.

For me, it all comes back to comfort during use as the ONLY compelling reason to choose the Festool and I will again admit that is a very good reason, but not a logical one since I am not bonded to my sander for hours on end like some here seem to be. I now view comfort as a luxury and not a necessity. The Bosch ain't a bad second choice on comfort.

So there you have it, my view of the ROS world as a few have asked for. You all don't need to defend Festool as I am not negative on Festool - I simply have talked myself into better use of my available dollars based on the above logic.

[Chris Padilla]

Some food for thought that has driven much of my purchasing consideration over my lifetime.

“It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money --that is all. When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot --it cannot be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better. “

John Ruskin
English Philosopher
1819-1900

[Chris Padilla]

So there you have it, my view of the ROS world as a few have asked for. You all don't need to defend Festool as I am not negative on Festool - I simply have talked myself into better use of my available dollars based on the above logic.

Tom, I did not read the entire thread so my apologies if I have some info wrong here. Have you ever USED a Festool tool (sander, for example?).

Believe me, I was in the same boat as yourself wondering why I would spend $$$$s on a sander as opposed to $$s. I took the plunge when some deals surfaced (maybe brought it down to $$$s or $$$ 1/2 s :)) and was quite impressed...so impressed that I proceeded to plunk down my hard earned cash for this line of tools. So far, so good with them and they've all exceeded my expectations. Even my wife rather enjoys sanding items...the fact that no sanding dust can be found is very strange...one doesn't think they are really sanding!!

I'm not trying to sell you anything...you are free to choose to spend your money however you like and you don't have to justify it to anybody...just like Festool too purchasers don't have to justify why they spend their money.

Cheers! :)

[George Oak]

Interesting discussion. I just have to chime in with a few tidbits. I am a hobbyist woodworker who, over the last year, made a serious investment in several pieces of the Festool product line.

First, the "fixed price" policy. I absolutely love it. No dickering, and no screwing over your local dealer. I see many shoppers waste whole afternoons of a local retailer's precious time comparison shopping for a cabinet saw, and then go home and buy the item from Amazon or whatever. Festool's price policy means that even if a buyer does not possess a particularly strong moral compass, he will not have a reason to screw over a dealer (local or Internet) who gives him great advice and service, just to save a few lousy bucks.

Second, the Festool pricing in general: given the innovation and overall quality of the tools, I do not think that these prices are unreasonably high. I have owned the Domino for about five months now. Even as a hobbyist, I have saved so much time and produced such excellent, error-free joinery that the tool has paid for itself. If I were doing woodworking for business, I would start by buying two ;).

Third, I buy Festool because I am passionate about, and fervently support American industry and manufacturing.
(... I know; they are German, blah, blah, blah...)
But here is how this fits in for me: Festool's product line is an example of how tool making can be practiced as an art and a profitable business without making it a race to the bottom. The Wal-Martization of this country is a travesty. Cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, and sacrificing quality, service, tradition and social responsibilities every step of the way.

I have no idea how American industry could produce a competitor to a two hundred pound Chinese drill press that sells for ten bucks or whatever. But if Festool can make a profit selling a quality product while paying their workers in Euros, there is no reason that, given talent, focus and ingenuity, American industry could not compete with that. The way I look at it, every Festool product I buy is a spit in the face of the whoremongers at WMH Tool Group.

/rant off

[Dave Falkenstein]

Tom - Thanks for posting your decision rationale. I can't say that I agree with your logic, but that's why we have vanilla and chocolate.