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Steveo O'Banion
01-26-2008, 12:36 PM
This isn't intended to be a rant, more of an FYI to those who don't know.

The Industrial Arts or "shop" classes that many of us took in school and might have been our first or only opportunity to work with real woodworking machines and tools has nearly become extinct in the U.S. It's been replaced in MOST schools (not all of them) with Technology Education, aka passive learning with a computer. OK, thats my definition anyway :D.

If you care about the old school shop in your community let the school administration know that you think it's a valuable part of the schools curriculum. I'm VERY lucky that I teach in the woodshop I first saw as an 8 YO in 1968 and have the job I've wanted since then. Our school system has always seen the value of it and kept our programs running, although we have been pruned back some. The community I live in updated our woodshop with a big computer controled router table when they built the new HS, but eliminated graphic arts, the auto shop and everything else.

When I worked in construction and manufacturing, project managers and supervisors were always shocked when they heard of the closing of these programs. Although never intended to be vocational in nature, they provided a little career education and a chance to try-out and nuture some basic skills. Today's Technology Education gives a kid a chance to sharpen his computer mouse skills.

Money is always a culprit.

Steve

Chuck Wintle
01-26-2008, 12:46 PM
I think shop skills are still relevant today.:)

Ken Fitzgerald
01-26-2008, 1:19 PM
It's sad that shop and/or techincal programs are being eliminated from school curriculums! They are invaluable. I never took the shop classes I was always doing the science and math classes.

When we were in Illinois, my daughter was v/p of the auto club in the h/s she attended. We moved to Idaho when she was a junior and her senior year she was v/p of the auto club in the h/s here. She went on to get a degree in automotive mechanics. Once in a while she turns a wrench but the experience and education sure helped when she got hired by a major automotive parts company. She later left that job to relocate for her husbands career.

Those type of classes also teach a manner of thinking that deals with safety, planning and execution of plans..........invaluable.

Jim King
01-26-2008, 1:37 PM
It is a sad thing to see this happening everywhere up there. I have always beleived that if there is no noise there is no real productivity and shops are about teaching one how to make noise. Saws, welders, lathes what ever that can make something is good. I have never forgotten when many years ago during the cold war the head of Chrysler said we need not fear the Russians any more because if they wanted to destroy our industrial complex they would have to bomb Japan.

The US now being the largest debtor in the world is not going to come out of it with a $600 refund from the future taxes and making hamburgers.

The Chinese are making a lot of industrial noise and smoke and are taking over the world very quickly. We as Americans with our clean shirts and ties , our MacMansions and triple dip mortages seem a bit lost.

I am certainly for any and all shop classes in the schools. Noise makes more REAL money than paper shuffeling.

Scott Velie
01-26-2008, 3:25 PM
I agree 100% this is a HUGE issue. Kids today are not learning any kinds of hands on skills. Because of that most have no appreciation of building or fixing things.
This is a sad thing. Everyone on this forum knows the satisfaction of woodworking. I don't know about all of you but I first learned in high school shop.
All on this forum should speak up when appropriate to get schools to get shops open again.

Joe Pelonio
01-26-2008, 4:22 PM
Here the Technology Education includes engineering, materials science, and biotechnology.

They also have Career and Technical Education. The classes include accounting, business entrepreneurship, business law, computer gaming, photoshop and web design.

We still have a full auto/paint/metals shop available for students at any high school as space allows at just one location. No wood shop.

Much of that is from parental input to the District on what they want taught as electives, beyond the standard curriculum. I figured that here it was due to the abundance of Boeing engineers and Microsoft employees living here, but it sounds like a national trend?

Greg Heppeard
01-26-2008, 4:31 PM
It's not just a money thing...it's liability also. Remember the kid who cut his finger off and his parents sued the school?....

I do believe in industrial arts being taught in schools, but I also believe there should be a better instructor/pupil ratio. It would hold down the number of lost appendages.

Bob Rufener
01-26-2008, 5:12 PM
I have seen just the opposite in my area high school. About 12 years ago, they held a referendum to expand and equip a new technology (industrial arts) wing. It passed and a lot of industries contributed money and/or equipment for this new wing. There is a large printing firm in our area named Quad Graphics that outfitted a state of the art graphics arts facility. A program was begun for a select number of students to design and build a house to sell. The local Rotary club was big in this endeavor. Students design and build a house in the area under the guidance of carpenters, electricians, plumbers, etc. The FACE departement has students work on design as well and also decorating of the interior. The ag department does some work with landscaping and planting.

The local industries have been big in assisting the high school as they see a need for workers who can come to them partially trained. A big plus for them in the long run so they are willing to help out.

I wish this was process was done in other areas of our country as it has worked out well here.

Jim King
01-26-2008, 7:01 PM
I have lived in countries where we had many computor schools and no electricity or anyone to make desks for the computors.

It may seem a bit strange but here in the Amazon the trade schools are heavily funded and directed by industry and what the industries needs are. Maybe we are not third world after all ?¿

Joe Melton
01-26-2008, 7:34 PM
What's wrong with a kid learning woodworking skills/industrial arts from his or her father, rather than from a school?
Joe

Jeffrey Makiel
01-26-2008, 11:05 PM
What's wrong with a kid learning woodworking skills/industrial arts from his or her father, rather than from a school?
Joe

Joe...you hit the nail on the head!

I always say: "it starts at home". If parents don't give their kids physical responsibilities to do around the house and don't participate in any physical hobbies with them, all the schooling in the world won't make a difference.

The next time you go to a woodworking show, or perhaps a hobby show like model railroading, look around and take note of the age of the attendees.

-Jeff :)

Mike Henderson
01-26-2008, 11:58 PM
What's wrong with a kid learning woodworking skills/industrial arts from his or her father, rather than from a school?
Joe
I learned woodworking at school - my father was not a woodworker and had no facilities, equipment, or for that matter, knowledge of woodworking, to pass along to me.

That's why we need schools for many types of knowledge. Otherwise, we'd only be able to work in the same industry as our father - which might not be right for us.

Mike

Dennis Peacock
01-27-2008, 1:17 AM
What's wrong with a kid learning woodworking skills/industrial arts from his or her father, rather than from a school?
Joe

Now you're preaching my kind of sermon. ;) :D

John Cartledge
01-27-2008, 2:59 AM
Where I come from we eliminated technical schools which were trade shops dedicated to teaching both trade skills and general High school subjects. This is no recognised as one of the biggest mistakes we made and has contributed to a large skills shortage. The skills I learned from the old tradesman I still carry with me and have been a great help through my life, Fathers are part of the story but learned skills from qualified individuals can't be beat.

Dan Barr
01-27-2008, 4:41 AM
well, this is just going to make my skills even more valuable.

the more people are jealous of what i am able to do, the more chance there is of someone trying to do something on their own in order to prove that they dont need me anyway. yea, they'll screw it up the first few times, but eventually a few persistent people will succeed. Or, they'll just pay money to have it done for them.

but yes, this surely does smell of an american problem. it feels like the "know-how" is all but gone out of this country sometimes.

The business man remarks: "What?!, $4,000.00 to install $2,500.00 worth of cabinets!"

The installer replies: "Well, aint no one else in town that can do it and you cant exactly out-source this one to mexico."

When you get the chance, grab the bull by the wallet, not the horns.

Imagine this: Eventually we have too many "degrees" floating around. Market ids flooded with people that have degrees but no skills. skilled anything is in extremely high demand and the few skilled laborers begin to make more money than the "degreed" skill-less surplus. in some segments, this is the case.

I know a guy who installs windows for Andersen windows. he pulls over 120K per year just by installing 8-10 windows a day. Yes, that's moving pretty quick, but, he has the skills and not many do. He has no High school diploma either.

We got rock stars and professional athletes making millions?!?!?!?!

LOLOLOL

dan

Steveo O'Banion
01-27-2008, 7:46 AM
Joe, you think every kids parents know how to so this? :)


What's wrong with a kid learning woodworking skills/industrial arts from his or her father, rather than from a school?
Joe

Dave Anderson NH
01-27-2008, 8:48 AM
Fortunately, in our area we have a well equipped and up to date tech building at our school. There are indeed the computer type courses, but there are also electrical, plumbing, automotive, auto body, carpentry, and woodworking shops. The woodshop program has made itself indispensable by getting the administration to allow wooworking courses to fulfill a students "Fine Arts" graduation requirement. Students are required to plan, draw their project, and have it critiqued before ever cutting a piece of stock. Over 300 students take these courses and there is often a waiing list.

The key to school program success is for teachers to sell, sell, sell. To assist, our NH guild funded a grant in aid to the New England Association of Woodworking Teachers to have a marketing firm develop a set of instructions and marketing aids for teachers. The aids allow and show teachers and interested parties how to get publicity, approach administrations and school boards, and sell the value of the program to the local public. The point is that no program anywhere has ever been eliminated without either the active or PASSIVE aquiesence of the voters. As Pogo said, " We have met the enemy and he is us." To be even more blunt, we (the public collectively) have allowed this to happen.

In a general sense we have to recognize that not all kids are college material because of a lack of interest, motivation, intelligence, or financial situation. Society will always need skilled tradesmen and to a larger extent semi-skilled folks. Life is too complex for everyone to have the skills to do all their own work in every facet of life and the costs in time and specialized equipment make it virtually impossible. A successful society needs people of all types and skills.... there is dignity and pride in any type of job well done.

Lee Koepke
01-27-2008, 9:30 AM
There are a couple of good comments touched on here.

1. We are living in a disposable society. It EASIER to just throw it out and buy a new one than trying to fix something.

2. No motiviation to do BETTER. If something is tough, just dont bother. Whatever it takes to get by, thats all we do.

3. Ah, its good enough mentality.

None of those attributes are suitable for wookworking IMHO. I am looking for some adult education in woodworking to have someone help teach me the technical aspects, and so far theres only ONE school I have found in the Atlanta area. ONE.

My last project, I miscut, mis-calculated, or misalinged several things, so did I quit or toss it in the scrap pile? Nope, I adjusted my design and overcame my mistakes and I am the only one that knows what happened.

I hope the handson trades do not disappear.

Paul Greathouse
01-27-2008, 9:55 AM
We got rock stars and professional athletes making millions?!?!?!?!

LOLOLOL

dan[/quote]


Don't get me started on professional atheletes. Dan, I hope I am in agreement with what you meant in my following rant but in my opinion society has placed the so-called professional athlete on way too high a pedistal.

It's the working class stiffs that pay the rediculously high prices for everthing from game tickets to sports memorabilia that have made this possible. It's also these same guys that spend too much time teaching their kid about sports than teaching how to build or repair something. Probably because thats all his dad taught him was how to throw a ball.

I was probably brought up in a unique situation compared to most people my age. I was raised in a combination farm/construction family. I was learning how to build barns, raise animals, plant crops, and do mechanic work on everthing from the family car to tractors and bulldoziers, while most kids my age were shooting hoops and learning the useless & offensive skill of trash-talking.

My dad, uncle & older cousins taught me alot, No I don't make millions of dollars doing what I do but I do make a better than average, honest living. AND, I don't do drugs and embarrass myself and my family on national TV by doing stupid and childish things like many of todays so-called atheletes do.

Oh, I did have shop class in junior high and high school too, I had a great teacher, that taught me more refined woodworking skills than I had learned at home. Unfortunaltely shop class was dropped from all the schools in this area not long after I graduated.

Organized sports does teach teamwork but I would hire a skilled craftsman over an Ex-high school athletic hero any day. Most all he will have for a resume is his past glory days, Al Bundy the shoe saleman comes to mind.

Well, I feel better now. Rant complete.

Steven Wilson
01-27-2008, 10:06 AM
I'm glad that many of the industrial arts classes that we were exposed to as kids are being closed today. These classes were set up to teach some basic skills to kids entering the work force. Teaching woodshop to kids when there isn't a market for those skills is a waste of tax dollars. For industrial arts programs to remain relevant they need to change with the times and woodshop is a useless skill for most of todays employers. Besides, our need for industrial arts education is better served in the community college / trade school system than in industrial arts programs in high school. Woodshop is gone? Good riddence.

Paul Greathouse
01-27-2008, 10:26 AM
I'm glad that many of the industrial arts classes that we were exposed to as kids are being closed today. These classes were set up to teach some basic skills to kids entering the work force. Teaching woodshop to kids when there isn't a market for those skills is a waste of tax dollars. For industrial arts programs to remain relevant they need to change with the times and woodshop is a useless skill for most of todays employers. Besides, our need for industrial arts education is better served in the community college / trade school system than in industrial arts programs in high school. Woodshop is gone? Good riddence.


Well Steve, I have to respectfully disagree. The housing industry, although on decline in some areas of the country would benefit greatly from a true Industrial Arts class like the one I took in high school. It taught all aspects of construction not just woodworking. One year we were divided up into groups of 3 or 4 and actually built several corner portions of scaled down houses. The purpose was to learn framing, interior & exterior siding, basic wiring and roofing skills.

David G Baker
01-27-2008, 10:46 AM
My father taught me that one of the smartest things I could do was to learn to work with my hands prior to picking a career choice, that way I would always have something to fall back on if my chosen career field was no longer in need. Man was he ever correct, every career I worked at either became out dated or changed so drastically that extensive training was required to remain employed.
I had 3 or 4 trade jobs but I didn't feel comfortable with them after a year or so. Those jobs sure helped with all of my hobbies and I could have survived if I had to go back to the crafts.
I loved the few shop classes that I took in high school but the class that really got me excited was photography. I didn't go toward the artistic side of photography but went in the film processing side and stayed with it until it was replaced by video tape and digital equipment. I made the transition and stuck with it until I retired.
I would have been very happy to have attended a dedicated trade school but none existed near where I lived.
It is a shame to stop the trade training in school because there are many children that excel in those areas and have no interest in the education they are currently pushing so they have a tendency to drop out of school.

Keith Outten
01-27-2008, 11:49 AM
Throughout three years of junior high school and three years of high school I took shop classes (in the 1960's). From woodworking to metalworking and even a masonry class, I took every Industrial Arts class that was offered and they literally saved my butt in recent years.

If you feel that these kinds of programs are worthy of your tax dollars and benefit our young people don't sit on your hands...get out of your chair and go to your local schools and complain. Take part in your local school board meetings and speak up, don't sit in the cheap seats and remain silent. Stand up and yell until someone listens but be ready to back up your talk with action. Get involved and stay involved. Many of the public school shops were dismantled because their equipment wore out and there were no funds to replace the machines. This is nothing more than a lack attention by the public when there are so many ways to raise money for schools besides tax increases.

If you take a close look at any community where the schools are top notch you will find active parents. Even if your children are grown and gone you can still be active in your local school system and give something back for all you have received.

"Don't Complain...Participate"

Greg Heppeard
01-27-2008, 12:16 PM
I believe that the industrial arts programs taught more than just basic skills. It fueled my imagination also. I don't believe that kids today have enough stimuli for their imagination. Playing computer games may hone digital dexterity, but most do little for the imagination, except the violent side. Blood and guts are not something I want to see around my shop.

Steveo O'Banion
01-27-2008, 3:34 PM
Steven,

For 14 years I worked as a HR manager in construction and for a LARGE national food manufacturer that everyone knows. The people I worked with would heartily disagree with you.

It's not about "the woodshop". It's about working with tools (tools are technology) and actually putting your hands on something (not a mouse) and controlling the outcome. It includes trouble shooting, problem solving and planning in a three dimensional world. It's about forcasting and planning ahead because you know the results won't meet expectations if you don't.

Construction is still the largest employer in the USA, roughly 1 in 20 jobs in this country are actually involved putting the work in, 1 in 5 jobs support construction in some way. Thankfully, we havn't found a way to outsource those jobs.

According to the Business Roundtable, only 20% of the jobs out there are management jobs requiring a college degree. It was the same in 1950. The change that has occurred in the past nearly 60 years is that unskilled and skilled jobs have flipped, about 60% of the jobs today require some level of training.

Remember in the 80's we were told that we were going to a service economy, that w'e all be working behind a computer. Now computer software engineers get extended unemployment benefits because those jobs have gone overseas.

Ok, I need to step back and breath! :D

Steve


I'm glad that many of the industrial arts classes that we were exposed to as kids are being closed today. These classes were set up to teach some basic skills to kids entering the work force. Teaching woodshop to kids when there isn't a market for those skills is a waste of tax dollars. For industrial arts programs to remain relevant they need to change with the times and woodshop is a useless skill for most of todays employers. Besides, our need for industrial arts education is better served in the community college / trade school system than in industrial arts programs in high school. Woodshop is gone? Good riddence.

Steven Wilson
01-27-2008, 5:59 PM
Steve, if your interested in going into the construction trade, automotive repair, welding, furniture refinishing or a whole host of other trades then sign up at your local technical college/trade school and pay the tuition. Teaching those courses at the highschool level is a waste of resources that can be better spent on something else. Now, if you want to argue that highschools should teach the basics of tool usage to include home repair, basic welding & metal fab, woodworking, etc. then I might buy in, but not as an "industrial arts" program. Industrial Arts programs were implemented in highschools to train folk's for industry, the time for that mission has past. Trade and technical schools, post highschool, are better at providing somewhat trained workers for industry.

Dan Barr
01-27-2008, 6:02 PM
i'll have to agree with you there. lol

cheers,

dan

Scott Shepherd
01-27-2008, 6:34 PM
How valuable are they these days? I can't speak for today, but some 25 years ago when I wanted to be nothing more than a machinist, I was thrilled to sign up for a Vo-Tech program and go spend 1/2 a day every day in a metal working shop. The bad thing- it was the dumping group for troubled kids, not kids like me who wanted to actually be a machinist. So it was 2 of us in there who wanted to make something of it, and about 10 who wanted to go to the welding room, turn the exhaust fan on, strike an arc and sit there and smoke dope all class every day.

The machinery was so outdated that you couldn't do anything. We were cutting with High Speed Steel while the rest of the working world were using carbide and carbide inserts. We never even saw carbide until the state championship when the other kids brought their carbide tools with them.

I must say that I had to start from scratch in the real world because the real world was working in the 80's and we were working in the 40's. We didn't have the machines, the tools, the tooling, or even the metal. I can remember my Dad going and buying me metal to use because the school didn't have any to use.

Of course, we had no CNC machines, yet the real world was starting to get full of them. So that's another skill I didn't have when I went into the working world. Overall, I can't say that it prepared me much at all for the real world. Once I got my Journeyman card, and was established in the industry, I went back and tried to volunteer my time. Couldn't even get the teacher to call me back. I even went and got myself on a council to try and determine what the kids needed to be learning to make them assets to the industry. Never got a single thing changed.

It's sad, but it's probably more the normal than the exception.

If I had to do it all over again, I'm not sure I would have wasted my time in there. I probably would have been better off taking higher levels of math, since so much of all shop activities are math related.

Just my two cents.

Gordon Harner
01-27-2008, 6:43 PM
I share the disappointment with all of you on this subject. My full time job is as a safety consultant. One of my clients manufactures store fixtures both wood and metal. Recently, they bought a laser cutter to cut sheet steel. In two months of searching newspapers voed schools and headhunters they can't find even a partially qualified operator. Another point worth considering is who leaving school today can replace a light switch, fix a leaking faucet (let alone the valve stem packing) adjust a door lock etc? I do side jobs for shop money you woulodn't believe the things I'm paid to do.

Dave Peterson
01-27-2008, 7:57 PM
I have been lurking reading posts on this site for a short time. Now perhaps it is time to introduce myself.

I just retired from 36 years as a shop teacher. I have mostly taught at high schools, but have also taught adult night classes and university courses, with some supervision of student teachers. I agree with the comments the others have expressed.

I have seen many changes since I started teaching back in 1971. Many changes were good as they expanded the scope of the offerings to students. Unfortunately, the current trend in "leave no child untested" and other trends to emphasize the basics have driven many "coffin nails" in some high school vocational type programs.

Current philosophies have favored "simulation and paper and pencil activites" in technology education. They are eagerly embraced by administrators and school boards for two reasons. Many teachers have left teaching to work in industry where pay and working conditions are better, therefore the activities are easier for many of the remaining instructors. Universities that prepare the teachers are also absent of hands on training for prospective teachers. Secondly, simulation costs less than buying machines and materials. This gives more funds for the current sacred cows such as languages, sports, and required core subjects. Most vocational programs are elective and not required.

I enjoyed my years of teaching, and continue to work as a substitute teacher, but would not return to the field today as a new teacher. I have a lifetime license, but new teachers need to get a minimum of 6 university credits every 5 years to continue to teach. That would take 1 summer of every 5 to go to summer school. This is money out of the teachers pocket for room and board as well as $3000 for the credits and fees. Most schools do not reimbuse teachers for this and do not pay for the hours spent in summer school. Most new teachers start under $26000 per year as well as having college loans to pay back. This has certainly cut back on the higher quality teacher candidates staying in the field.

I would never had made it, as I have worked at a foundry during the summer as a patternmaker etc. and also had my own construction operation weekends and summers. Many times my employees were my former students. I didn't mind the lower pay as a teacher because I felt I had the best of both worlds.

Pardon my sermon, but I have some interest in the subject.

I think this is a good forum and have enjoyed reading the posts very much.

Ron Jones near Indy
01-27-2008, 8:02 PM
I feel that as many kids learned basic math and a large part of geometry in high school wood shops, machine shops and drafting rooms as in math classes.:)

I wonder if a study were ever done comparing the difference in performance in geometry comparing "regular" students to those who had taken a good basic drafting class prior to taking geometry.:confused: I know how I would vote.

I started teaching industrial arts in January of 1969. I now have seen first hand the change from IA to tech ed. I'm not taking sides here for each have many valid points in their favor. The teachers who allow/encourage their students to spend all class time with a mouse are usually short changing the students. The teachers who spent all of the class time in a shop with no understanding of theory and the application of the activities were also short changing the students. Personally I feel high school to be a time of mastery of basic skills and career exploration, not career preparation. Career prep is the purpose of technical schools, trade schools community colleges and apprenticeship programs.

My opinion, as stated before, is that both industrial arts and tech ed have valuable components. It's a shame to eliminate things of value due to a course/program name. In my experience, good teachers don't allow this to happen. They find a way to do and justify what needs to be done to give basic understanding and skills to the students who are willing to learn.

I could go on for pages and hours on this topic. I'm not going to take up bandwidth.

Ken Fitzgerald
01-27-2008, 8:14 PM
I think that shop classes are a good place to apply the math and scientific theory learned in the classroom. It has it's place.

Dan Barr
01-27-2008, 9:35 PM
I would ban college sports and professional sports altogether on the sole fact that it is a gross misprioritization by the american public and has proved itself thus for decades now. (more than shame)

Why are college football coaches making millions yet, the TEACHERS who lay the foundation of this very country start at 26K?

Aint no money in being moral. not supposed to be anyway. The real point is that there is no humility.

Its plain wrong and we all know it. I do not watch TV at all. i refuse to support this kind of behavior directly or passively. there are more like me as well.

alright, i'll shut up for now.

dand

Keith Outten
01-27-2008, 9:55 PM
Gordan,

I expect that the laser cutter is one of the machines cuaght in the middle these days. College graduates don't want to run them because it is dirty work. Tradesmen can't run them because they don't have the necessary training.

I would like to hire a high school graduate to work with me in my shop making signs. I don't mind teaching someone to run my ShopBot or my laser engraver but I hate to think that I have to start with an individual that doesn't know what an open end wrench is or doesn't not know how to use a tape measure. The sad part is that I could pay a young person handsomely and teach them skills that would allow them to make a very good living, possibly even better than their friends that graduate from college. It's warm in the winter and air conditioned in the summer and there is never any travel..one of the best jobs I have ever had. They just don't have any of the basic skills that allows them to even qualify to work the first day.

Michael Gibbons
01-27-2008, 9:59 PM
Unfortunately, there was no vocational courses of any kind because I went to private schools. For whatever reason, they didn't beleive in teaching such things. Just the basics-science ,math, english,reading,soc studies,etc. My dad new very little of maintenance-he was a cop and spent his spare time drinking. My grandfather was a machinists by trade and taught very little WWing to me. He also had very little in the way of tools,but I do have his old 3/4 hp Craftsman TS in the basement. I learned what liitle I know from Norm,books and Sawmill Creek. I suppose this thread could turn political but probably shouldn't because slowly all of our manufacturing jobs are going elsewhere. Theres no sense in teaching our children manual skills if there is nowhere to use them.

Scott Shepherd
01-28-2008, 9:08 AM
because slowly all of our manufacturing jobs are going elsewhere.

That's why I'm not longer in my trade. Over 20 years in the trade and I watched it get taken out to the woodshed time and time again. I challenged a CEO I had once. They wanted to move the manufacturing work out of the country and I made a bet with him. I bet him that I could come up with a process that would be far superior to anything they'd do outside the country. He took me up on it. We had someone pick a job, send it out for quotes, outside the country, and then I got a shot at it. I devised a couple of simple fixtures and totally undercut all the quotes outside the country. They said I was fabricating the run times, so I made the fixtures and actually ran the parts and proved my point.

He came down to my office and wanted to try and understand what just happened. I said "It's simple. In the USA, we have the incentive and motivation to always come up with something that makes things faster and better. The more I do that, the more valuable I am to the company, thus the more I get paid. I'm always looking for a better way because I'm rewarded for it. Now, compare that with someone in a 3rd world country who gets paid 25 cents a day regardless of whether or not they think. It's really simple, we, in the USA make a lot more money, but we also think about ways to improve, and have access to tooling and technology that those people don't".

He thought that was brilliant. So brilliant that he put me on a plane and sent me out of the country to design fixtures and write processes for the people outside the country. I didn't see that one coming. I thought he would keep the work in the country (as promised) if I did a better job. Silly me, believing a CEO :)

After that, I decided to move on from the industry. Especially since that was about the 3rd time and company I had worked for that had done similiar things.

Manufacturing is the core of this country and I hope I live long enough to see it come back strong.

Pat Germain
01-28-2008, 6:55 PM
The traditional shop class suffers from many poor perceptions. Traditionally, many schools dumped their underachieving students in shop classes. Thus, shop became synonymous with underachievment.

On top of this, many, many parents desperately want scholarships for their kids. These days, the vast majority of scholarships are athletic. Thus, parents push sports, sports, sports.

Not only are shop classes going away, so too are music and art. If people don't see a direct correllation to scholarships or instant, high-paying jobs, they don't see a need.

In truth, industrial and performing arts are necessary foundations for a well rounded education. With music, woodworking, metalwork, etc, students learn discipline, spacial awareness and invaluable lessons about their world. Yet, parents and administrators don't see it that way.

If parents and administrators wanted to prepare their students for the real corporate world, they'd be teaching eight hours of Power Point every day.

Dan Barr
01-28-2008, 10:00 PM
No one is.

Not everyone can be a football star or whatever. So, maybe its good that these parents are setting their kids up for failure. That way, i can have coworkers who incessantly talk about their glory days but are as dumb as a box of hammers.

I enjoyed sports growing up and still play a round of golf on occasion.

It is irritating to realize that all these parents are indirectly cutting off shop classes and music and art and all that.

let them. they will just have to be bitter when little johnny does not get that scholarship. Then they will wish they had taught little johnny something besides how to throw a football.

im rambling about things that i should not let bother me. my mistake.

i wish there was more common sense to go around.

cheers,

dan

Scott Shepherd
01-28-2008, 10:14 PM
That way, i can have coworkers who incessantly talk about their glory days but are as dumb as a box of hammers.

Thanks Dan, now I'll be cleaning my drink off the screen and keyboard :) I hope and pray that I'll never have to work in an office environment ever again for those very reasons.

I believe it expands to "The Peter Principle", which for those who don't know states "In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence."

Truer words have never been spoken :)

They can think little Johnny shouldn't get his hands dirty in some lousy trade, but the joke will be on them when they need electrical work and the rate is $120 per hour and it's a 6 week waiting list to get the work done. Justice will be served, one way or another.

Jon Lanier
01-28-2008, 11:38 PM
What's wrong with a kid learning woodworking skills/industrial arts from his or her father, rather than from a school?
Joe

I learned from both. I'm not much of a teacher, but I am attempting to teach our boys how to get around a shop and do some basic woodworking. They both have done pretty good so far.

Rob Will
01-29-2008, 12:31 AM
What's wrong with a kid learning woodworking skills/industrial arts from his or her father, rather than from a school?
Joe

In a perfect world, I agree with Joe. In our less than perfect world I was one of the lucky ones but what if...........

1.) What if a kid's father is blind, handicapped, absent, at war, or dead?
2.) What if they live in an inner city apartment?
3.) What if your family was so poor that your home was built totally from scrap lumber and your dad worked so much, he never had an opportunity to learn woodworking much less teach you? Now he's an old man.
4.) What if you were born in a corn crib, your father died when you were four years old, your mother raised the family of six children alone, went back to school (starting at sixth grade level), and eventually obtained a Masters degree in education? She never had much time to collect woodworking tools.

I had a lot of advantages but the above scenarios are real people that I know and work with every day.

During my high school years, school administrators were looking down their nose at shop classes and pushing us toward "advanced" or trendy sounding classes (that made THEM look good).

I had to sneak into shop class but looking back, it was about the only productive thing I did.

IMHO, shop class teaches critical thinking skills, personal responsibility, and a can-do attitude. This benefits the student in just about any carreer you can imagine.


Rob

Dan Barr
01-29-2008, 12:39 AM
and has done so, truthfully.

I think if a few more people would accept their station in life... not everyone needs to make millions. I dont. i dont even want millions of dollars. i just want to be well enough off to support my family and myself and have a little extra for fun or emergencies.

i have no intention towards pro sports or CEO or president. my intentions are to raise a respectable family, be true to them and myself and to woodwork until my heart is content. (this requires more time than my wife prefers. lol)

v/r

dan

Rob Will
01-29-2008, 1:27 AM
I'm glad that many of the industrial arts classes that we were exposed to as kids are being closed today. These classes were set up to teach some basic skills to kids entering the work force. Teaching woodshop to kids when there isn't a market for those skills is a waste of tax dollars. For industrial arts programs to remain relevant they need to change with the times and woodshop is a useless skill for most of todays employers. Besides, our need for industrial arts education is better served in the community college / trade school system than in industrial arts programs in high school. Woodshop is gone? Good riddence.

That kind of narrow thinking is exactly what is wrong with schools today. You are trying to "place" students rather than teaching them how to think for themselves.

Not only should all schools have shop classes, all students should be required to take at least one semester. That's right, boys AND girls should ALL be required to take one semester of shop and one semester of home economics.

The purpose of shop class is not to train future carpenters for immediate placement in the workforce. It teaches thinking skills that benefit students for life.

Rob

Lee Koepke
01-29-2008, 8:57 AM
That kind of narrow thinking is exactly what is wrong with schools today. You are trying to "place" students rather than teaching them how to think for themselves.

Not only should all schools have shop classes, all students should be required to take at least one semester. That's right, boys AND girls should ALL be required to take one semester of shop and one semester of home economics.

The purpose of shop class is not to train future carpenters for immediate placement in the workforce. It teaches thinking skills that benefit students for life.

Robthe old addage, youth is wasted on the young, fits well here. When I was in high school, I saw zero advantage to learning to cook sew work on machines/cars or woodworking. Now after being FORCED to do those by the school system, I have at the very least been exposed to each of those things.

I am no mechanic, but I did my own vehicle repairs from 16 to my 30s.

Being exposed to these tasks is not a waste of time. Our schools do not spend enough time teaching our kids LIFE SKILLS, how to survive this world.....

Jeffrey Makiel
01-29-2008, 11:10 AM
I don't put the primary blame on the education system. It's just a reflection of what is going on in society.

Again, it begins at home. I'm not talking about parents teaching their kids about woodworking either. I'm talking about parents requiring their kids to perfom physical chores around the house and be responsible for real things. Things like cutting the lawn, trimming the shrubs, wash the car, clean the windows, rake the leaves, etc. I haven't seen a young teenager do any of these things in many years.

Also, its seems that the motto is: if it's challenging, then lower the standard. This explains why there are more folks going to college today, but less are in challenging fields like engineering and the physical sciences even though there is a current demand in the US workforce. If one persues a trade, it best be a licensed trade. Otherwise, you will feel competition from illegal and unskilled imigrant labor that can afford to do it wrong 2 or 3 times.

How hollow can thing get before it collapses?

-Jeff :)

Pat Germain
01-29-2008, 2:57 PM
Things like cutting the lawn, trimming the shrubs, wash the car, clean the windows, rake the leaves, etc. I haven't seen a young teenager do any of these things in many years.

That's because they're too busy going to soccer practice, baseball practice, softball practice, football practice, basketball practice, etc. Then, when school gets out for the summer, they go to soccer camp, baseball camp, softball camp, football camp, basketball camp, etc. Parents even pay thousands of dollars to have professional videos made of their kids playing sports and send them to recruiters.

Why all the fuss? As I mentioned: SCHOLARSHIPS! They're quite willing to do anything to avoid paying a hundred grand to send their kid to college by getting them a sports scholarship. It ain't like the old days. Unless a kid gets a sports scholarship, mom and dad are going to pay through the nose. There are almost no loans or grants anymore and academic scholarships are few and far between. The vast majority of middle-class kids can qualify for only a few thousand dollars a year from a Stafford loan. This situation is affecting almost every area of education and not just shop classes.

My church used to organize very large youth camps during the summer. We don't do it anymore because most of the kids are in sports camps all summer.

Thus, when anyone talks about industrial arts, fine arts or performing arts in shool, parent's aren't interested because those areas are very unlikely to provide scholarships.

Mike Henderson
01-29-2008, 3:08 PM
This explains why there are more folks going to college today, but less are in challenging fields like engineering and the physical sciences even though there is a current demand in the US workforce. -Jeff :)
I wish that were true. For most of my career as an engineer I never worried about a job - there were more jobs than engineers. Now, however, many of the engineering jobs have gone offshore (primarily to India and China) and it's tough for US engineers to find a job, especially a job that they really want to do - one that's challenging and pays well.

I feel really bad for my younger friends who are engineers. They've had real difficulty finding any job and many or them are working in jobs well below their capabilities and education.

I use to tell young people - "Get an engineering degree! You'll never reget it." Now, I tell them "Don't go into engineering. Go into finance, law, medicine or even accounting if you want to be able to find a job." Young people know the statistics and that's why they aren't going into engineering.

Mike

Pat Germain
01-29-2008, 3:23 PM
^^ I agree, Mike. I work IT. That used to be a very good field. Alas, no more. Unless you work for DoD, which requires workers to be US citizens, there's not much opportunity. Software engineering and system administration is being offshored. That's why when you call for computer help the person doesn't speak English very well.

The US companies who still hire software engineers often do so through temp agencies or third-party contractors. That way, when a project is over, they can easily dump everyone. Even at Microsoft most people don't work for Microsoft. They work for third party vendors at a lower pay rate with fewer benefits.

Joe D'Attilio
01-29-2008, 4:44 PM
Ok my turn to rant.
As a newbie I wish I could find an old shop teacher to learn things from.

They dont teach you these things in college:

1. if a belt on your car breaks - you can use a pair of pantyhose as a temporary fix(don't rem if this works wit new vehicles w/ serpentine belts
2. How to fix frozen pipes with a hair dryer
3. How to save $20 by changing your own oil.(When this country mouse moved to the city, I was quoted over $1300 for 4 tires, brakes and rotors -after I purchased the parts the cost was only $500...for 2 hours of work

My passion for wood working, as with others here @ SMC I assume; started with that first woodshop class, along with the jewlery box and cedar chest created there(that was 16 yrs ago and they are both in use today)
I also made a funnel and a scoop, for flour/sugar still in use by my mother; in Metalshop...
I even had to take cooking/sewing - I cook 75% of the time now.

Kids today can't even boil water for a $.22 bag of Ramen Noodles.

Where do most college kids get their furniture today? IKEA???

We live in a "disposable" society - If it's broken replace it...this is the same mentality that push us and our parents into early retirement...

Final Thought:



Originally Posted by Steven Wilson
I'm glad that many of the industrial arts classes that we were exposed to as kids are being closed today. These classes were set up to teach some basic skills to kids entering the work force. Teaching woodshop to kids when there isn't a market for those skills is a waste of tax dollars. For industrial arts programs to remain relevant they need to change with the times and woodshop is a useless skill for most of todays employers. Besides, our need for industrial arts education is better served in the community college / trade school system than in industrial arts programs in high school. Woodshop is gone? Good riddence.


My generation was told to get any type of computer degree - the industry is changing everything to computers...blah blah blah - I have a 2 year networking degree which I can not afford to live on.

Why is it that the electricians, plumbers, HVAC, and facility maintenance technicians that I know, all seem to a pretty comfortable life if these "so called" arts are a "waste of money"????

I strongly disagree with the removal of "shop" classes - these are the fundamentals of applied science and free-thinking/expression.
(Give a man a fish and he eats for a day; teach a man to fish and he never goes hungry)

Maybe this applies, maybe not...When you need a professional service(whatever that may be), do you call the National brand (who only employs Tech school, certified employees) and might be able to fit you in the next 3 days or do you call your local repair guy(who might have only went to Vo-tech); because you know he'll give you a break on cost and will be there same day?

Mr Wilson, all due respect; I think you joined the wrong forum...

Jeffrey Makiel
01-29-2008, 6:23 PM
I wish that were true. For most of my career as an engineer I never worried about a job - there were more jobs than engineers. Now, however, many of the engineering jobs have gone offshore (primarily to India and China) and it's tough for US engineers to find a job, especially a job that they really want to do - one that's challenging and pays well.
Mike

Mike,
We've had difficulty in the last two months in hiring experienced engineers at work. A national engineering firm down the street told us that they are giving signing bonuses. Local Engineering schools are offering jobs starting at $60K per year. I agree that IT is being farmed out. But I'm talking about engineers that do mechanical, structural and electrical design and analysis.

I would also like to point out that the Secretary for the Department of Education stated that interest is the mathematical sciences is down. Further, I doubt that 9th and 10th graders are dis-interested because of future job interests.

I will agree with you that it is a matter of time that all of this will be off shored. Nothings sacred.

-Jeff :)

David Duke
01-29-2008, 7:30 PM
Here is a little take on this from someone who serves on the local board of education and please note I am speaking for myself and my perspective of the vocational education programs in Splendora and not the board as a whole (although we basically all have the same beliefs). I put that little disclaimer in because I try to be real careful in discussions like these and don't want my words taken as officially speaking "for the board".

Splendora is a small community located about 35 miles north of Houston. We are a very poor district and as a result receive about 81% of our funding from the state of Texas. With our funding so dependant upon the state locally our hands are really tied in what we can do, and with no local business other than the corner stores, barber shop and a couple of gas stations and Sonic, getting local funding/sponsorship for vocational courses is virtually impossible. That said we do have a thriving career/tech program students can get a certification in welding, we also have an auto mechanics program in which they can be ASME certified. There is also a nursing program (I can't remember the certification they get) and in computers they can get the CISCO certification (this has changed somewhat but I don't recall how), I'm sure we have other certification programs available but can't think of them off the top of my head.

In the past like most districts across the country we have been pushing to have kids prepared for college. But again like most communities we have realized, that not all kids want to go to college or have the skills and determination or resourses available to, really I think it was always known but I think at least for me anyway, that we saw education as the key to everything and forgot that learning a usefull skill is also an advancement in education. Schools at least in Texas are also faced with what is known in Texas as 4x4 requirements, this is a new requirement by the state (I think a good one) that mandates 4 credits each in english/language arts, math, science and social studies, what this is doing is crowding the school day making it harder for students to take the elective courses they would like.

In our recent hire of a new superintendent we made sure that he felt as we did and that was that we wanted to prepare our students to be as sucessfull as possible in what ever direction they choose. He has implemented a system of evaluating the interest of students beginning in the 6th grade, from that we will be able to plan for the various courses to make available to them be it computer related, vocational or more advance academic courses. We will also be moving to an eight period day next year with extended hours, this will allow more flexibility for students to take courses that interest them. We as a community have voted to build a new 3.5m dollar career and technology building, this will enable us to expand what we offer. What we all know is that it all boils down to money and achieving the most bang for the buck and that is what we are trying to do. We realize that college isn't for everyone but want that as an option if they so choose.

Lee Koepke
01-29-2008, 8:15 PM
Thanks David. That was an excellent read.

I wish teachers werent so pigeonholed into state mandated educational requirements. Example: woodworking can teach math and science. You learn about measuring, board feet calculations, trees (and conservation of them) wood movement, etc.

To me, thats Applied Mathematics and Applied Sciences. By definition that should find a way to fit into your 4x4 program.

And, keep up the good work!

David Duke
01-29-2008, 10:17 PM
Thanks David. That was an excellent read.

I wish teachers werent so pigeonholed into state mandated educational requirements. Example: woodworking can teach math and science. You learn about measuring, board feet calculations, trees (and conservation of them) wood movement, etc.

To me, thats Applied Mathematics and Applied Sciences. By definition that should find a way to fit into your 4x4 program.

And, keep up the good work!

Lee, actually the state is giving some leeway in which programs will count towards the necessary requirements, this is something that will have to "shake out" and see what happens.

Alan Trout
01-30-2008, 12:12 AM
Steve, if your interested in going into the construction trade, automotive repair, welding, furniture refinishing or a whole host of other trades then sign up at your local technical college/trade school and pay the tuition. Teaching those courses at the highschool level is a waste of resources that can be better spent on something else. Now, if you want to argue that highschools should teach the basics of tool usage to include home repair, basic welding & metal fab, woodworking, etc. then I might buy in, but not as an "industrial arts" program. Industrial Arts programs were implemented in highschools to train folk's for industry, the time for that mission has past. Trade and technical schools, post highschool, are better at providing somewhat trained workers for industry.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=757640)

It is sad that these attitudes exist. I never took industrial arts classes when I was in school but I was very fortunate that my dad was a shop teacher and taught me those life skills. The skills taught in these classes are not just to work with tools but put a practical aspect to solving problems, organization, discipline and a host of other things that I find lacking in many of the young people that come out of our public education systems.

The skills I learned from my father and other craftsmen over the years gave me the incentive and the skills needed to enter into entrepreneurship at an early age and make a very respectable living even by most professional standards and all without the college education that many feel is necessary.

In my view these programs were never intended to be really vocational training but were options to show a young mind that there can be more than one direction to go. One must remember that not everyone is cut out for college but there are things that they can still do in this day and age as a professional craftsman that can earn them a very respectable living and to be a very productive part of our society.

I now have a 3 year old that watches me work in the shop and always says he wants to learn how to do that. At least I wont have to depend on our education system for those skills. But what I find sad is that there are plenty other little boys and girls that will never get the chance to learn these skills because they have parents that do not posses these skills or see the value in them.

Good Luck

Alan

Dan Barr
01-30-2008, 12:22 AM
you said the E word. shh Entrepreneur.

Oh my!

i wonder where entrepreneurs got those life skills?

lol

dan

Heather Deans
01-30-2008, 7:52 PM
This has been very interesting to read- thanks all! I have to admit that I didn't take shop class in HS- although now I wish I had. I teach theatre scenery construction at the college level, and truthfully, most of what I teach in the intro class isn't theatre, its basic shop. I happen to teach at a woman's college right now, but even when I was at a co-ed college, most students had never been exposed the concept of "how things go together". I try and make sure that every student who comes through my doors knows basic materials, basic fasteners, basic structures, and basic tools (and safety). I want these young men and women to have enough information that even if they don't want to do anything with their hands ever again, they at least should be able to speak a little of the same language. Is this really my job? Maybe not, but if I can put it into a career perspective it works. In my case, it IS about teaching them skills that can get them hired, but its also about people like the cheerleader type I had in my class a couple of years ago who came back to me after she had finished the class to tell me how excited she was that her mom had asked her to hang a shelf for her, and she had been able to do it. The confidence boost something like that can give is amazing. Learning this stuff from your parents is a nice idea, but there are a lot of people who have parents who didn't teach them or didn't know it themselves. I would LOVE to see these basic skills continuing to be taught in high schools- simply because so many of them are what I see as life skills. I really don't think its much different than teaching someone to balance a checkbook- both useful, both worth the time to learn.
Heather

Joe Melton
01-31-2008, 1:50 AM
I almost deleted my first post because I thought someone might interpret it as demeaning to the opinion of the original poster. It was not meant to be and I'm glad no one has (apparently) interpreted it that way.
Before the industrial revolution took men from their homes, their sons spent the day with them, watching and learning their skills and trade. With the advent of factories, the fathers became absent and the sons were left with their mothers, to wait till they were old enough to enter a factory themselves. (For more on this, read "Iron John".)
Nowadays, quality time between most fathers and sons is an hour sitting in the same room watching tv. Quality time for a mother and daughter is an afternoon at the mall.
I'm not sure how I stand on the industrial arts being taught in high school. Once, on This Old House, someone asked Roger Cook (I think that is his name) how he found good young help for his landscaping business. His reply, which surprised me, was that he found nice guys and then taught them the trade. Now, landscaping is probably not as complex as woodworking, but maybe the idea transfers. It does with regard to electricians, I think, not because all electricians are "nice guys", but because they serve some sort of apprenticeship before getting their licenses.
Personally, I think our society has "evolved" to one devoted to consumption and possessions. Look at what we are supposed to do with our upcoming tax rebates: buy stuff. If people don't buy stuff, (and by "stuff" I mean unnecessary stuff, since we have no choice about buying necessary stuff), our economy collapses. (Did you know it takes 53,000,000 trees to produce the paper in all the catalogs mailed out to Americans in a single year? How much stuff in those catalogs, besides the Lee Valley one, are "necessary"?)
In such a society, the arts become irrelevant.
An interesting statistic I read a couple of days ago: The first "self storage" facility was built in Texas in the late 1960s. Today, ten percent of Americans have things in one of 40,000 self storage facilities. This is an increase of 75% from ten years ago, a period of time when the average American house has increased in size by 50%. Larger houses are not enough to keep our economy going! On the bright side, as houses get larger, more carpenters are required!
So, here we are: six billion or so hominoids occupying a large piece of dirt floating through space, with a social structure based on consumption. Seems sort of self destructive to me.

Joe, feeling curmudgeonly

Ron Bontz
02-05-2008, 7:54 PM
Well I agree 100% with the comments here on this one. I had no father per say to teach me any type of skills but growing up I had "shop class" in 7-9 and 10Th grade. We had metal shop, plastics/leather shop,and my favorite, wood shop. The various skills I learned in those classes have helped me through out my 50 years. I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to pay to have something done. There is a sense of pride, I think, in knowing you were/are self sufficient. Knowing how to use your mind and hands together to solve problems is invaluable. Not everyone will grow up to be a researcher in quantum physics. But somebody needs to have the skills and understanding to help build those accelerators and other gizmos used to test those theories.

Gary Herrmann
02-05-2008, 11:42 PM
Currently, my school district has a HS wood shop. My son is in 2nd grade. We'll see what happens. I am going to see what the shop needs over the years. Every little bit has to help.

I don't know if my son will be interested in wwing. He does swing a mean hammer tho. :D

I will teach him basic self sufficience. My wife is an engineer, I'm an IT geek. I do flat work, turn and am a budding neander. She's getting into carving. We rehabbed the old house we live in.

We're both former jocks who just got too banged up to keep playing. If my knees weren't toast, I doubt I'd be here. We were both hyper competitive. Ironically, we're leaning the othe way with him. We're very aware of what it takes to get a scholarship. We'd rather he just enjoy sports.

I don't know if it's a cultural or societal thing. My dad was a fireman and did a lot of work around the house. Unfortunately he passed before I could learn much from him. Maybe that's in the back of my head somewhere and led me to where I am with wwing. Dunno.

I do think we should continue to support shop, or industrial arts or whatever you want to call it in HS and even earlier. Exposure to working with their hands and actually producing something as an assignment will teach them to think, plan, learn to ask questions and most importantly, foster creativity.