Which cyclone

[Steve Sowden]

I have read with great interest many of the posts on the neccessity of GOOD dust collection. I am now ready to retire my Jet cannister DC and go for a cyclone. It appears that many (if not most) of you think the Clear-Vue is best.

Is the Clear-Vue a no-brainer purchase or should I be looking at Oneida, JDS etc?

In reading Bill Pentz's site I see he has hade some problems with "a major DC manufacturer". Considering his amazing help to the woodworking community, I would like to avoid this manufacturer. Any idea who it is?

I also see that Bill's site has ads for another DC company (Baghouse) - any thoughts on this company?

Thanks

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Steve, welcome. I am not going to pretend to know 1% of what Bill knows about dust collection, if he says its the best, then I tend to believe him until he is proven wrong. Did I buy a clear vue? No I bought an Oneida, and am very happy with it. Probably as happy as the Clearvue and Grizzly people are with thier machines. Most of the people that own one of these 3 machines, love them. I had no way to compare the 3 machines in person. I just had to weigh the pros and cons of each machine IMO. I didnt even consider the JDS because the footprint of the base was too wide for my situation, also I thought it had a clear bin ( which I thought was a great idea), but come to find out it is just a bag with a metal frame inside. I bet it is a pain to get the metal frame out when the bag is full. Maybe someone that owns one can chime in.

I like the Clearvue, being able to see the material, and when it was time to change the drum. The cone geometry is supposes to seperate better, but I dont know. The only thing I didnt like much was the MDF ( or wood in general) used in the construction. Looks to homemade to me, im sure it works fine though. I also here that Ed at Clearvue is a wonderful person to deal with.

[Jim O'Dell]

Jay, sounds like an ad for Clear Vue!:D I'm one with the Clear Vue, and it does a great job. But like Jay said, I have no way to say if one is better than the other, because I haven't been around the other units. I think the 3 "biggies" are Oneida, Grizzly and Clear Vue.
As far as which company Bill has had trouble with, I'm not going to say that any more in a public forum. It should be easy enough to search the forums and find out that information.
Good luck with your decision. For me, the only "tool" for the shop that was harder to decide on was the bandsaw! :eek: :D:D Jim.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Keep in mind,

on the internet you often find a single person's perspective and not both sides of the story.

I'd get both sides of the story before making my decision if that's what you are going to base a decision on....


Other than that,

I'd find out which company's product best suits you needs and meets your specifications and budget.

[Steve Sowden]

So much for the perfect, easy answer (seldom found). I understand and appreciate your comments. I was leaning towards Oneida until I started reading Bill's site and good feedback on Clear-Vue.

It sounds like there are at least a couple of good options that many SMCer's are happy with. I will determine my needs with the help of the many past posts on the subject and go from there.

Thanks,

[CPeter James]

There used to be a saying in business that " no one ever lost their job for buying IBM". They might not be the best, but they were good and consistant and service was there. The same can be said for Oneida. It may not be the best, but you won't be disapointed. The others may as good or better, but all three are going to work good. The differences in performormance will be hard to detect in actual shop conditions. Buy what you are most comfortable with and don't look back.

BTW: I have a ten year old Oneida and am still happy with it.

CPeter

[Steve Roxberg]

I just went through the whole process and picked the Oneida Super Gorilla. I looked at the Grizzly, JDS, Penn State, Clearvue, and Oneida.

Yes, I've read Bill's site, and have been thinking about a cyclone for years.

I will vent inside during the winter, and outside the rest of the year.

So far, I'm still running pipe, I'm very happy and the suction is impressive.

[Rick Gifford]

When I was looking for a dust collector I ran through almost every option. I finally decided a cyclone was the way to go.

I read Bill Pentz website. I looked at the others. I believe he knows what he is talking about and has contributed a large amount of time and resource doing his research. He basically did the work for us.

Seeing how others have copied his design told me his work must be good. ClearVue used his most recent design which is more efficient than the earlier one that was copied.

I read reviews on all the cyclones. I found only one negative on the ClearVue, the others had various responses.

In the end I decided to go with Mr. Pentz and buy one from ClearVue.

My opinion of it is positive. It sucks like crazy. My only negative is sometimes a part/plastic isnt cut right and will need trimmed during installation. I think for the money it should be 100% right.

With ClearVue you will need to put it together yourself and build your own hanging bracket and get your own filters. Some of the others come complete.

[Jim Becker]

In 2000, I bought a small Oneida system for my then-smaller shop. When I expanded my shop a few years later to its current size and upgraded to much larger tools with more demanding dust collection requirements, I bought another Oneida. My original one is still working just great in another SMC member's shop and my 2hp Commercial system is everything I expected it to be. One other thing I did was to tour the Oneida facilities when I picked up the newer, larger system...it was a good opportunity for a road trip. Their design, manufacturing and testing facilities were both impressive and also concentrated specifically on small shop dust collection.

What's nice at this point is that there are a number of good choices available to you...much more than there was back in 2000 when I bought my first cyclone. And as Ken said, be careful about "what you hear on the Internet". We all need to weed out the good factual information from other things.

[Jim Andrew]

In '05 I bought a 2hp woodsucker. It is a great machine, very similar to the others, and I use a 50 gallon drum to catch the sawdust. It keeps my shop pretty clean, but to keep up with my planner the filter needs to be clean. If I was able to start over, would get a 3hp with 2 filters. Most of my lumber is rough sawn, and it only takes a few minutes to make 50 gallons of chips. Jim

[Tim Marks]

When I spend $1000 or so on a cyclone, I am not going to buy something made out of plastic and mdf, regardless of who endorses it. I will buy something made out of steel that will not break when the movers lean on it wrong.

Oneida has set the industry standard, and has been improving their product ever since. You can't go wrong with them, or with the grizzly. Both have demonstrated performance comparable to the Clear-vue in independant tests, and are being sold for similar prices to the Clearvue despite being solidly constructed out of steel and not being offerred as a "kit" requiring alot of assembly by the end user.

Do a search here for cyclone to find frequent heavily debated threads on which cyclone is the best. It is a popular topic, and debates get so hot and heavy that you would think politics and religion were involved.

[Tim Quigley]

I spent a good two years contemplating my recent purchase. Read all of the stuff on this board, Bill's site, and each of the manufacturers. In the end, it seemed that the units from the top few brands (say Oneida, Grizz, Clearvue, and maybe even PSI) all performed in the same general ball park. So, two weeks ago when I decided to pull the trigger I went with the Griz 2hp model. Main reason was the fact that I could drive to the showroom and pick it up this saving a bunch on shipping...that and it was on sale at the time for $675!

What I took away from all the research was that I should spend even more time carfully designing and running my pipe from the cyclone to each machine. Screw that part up by just a small percent and you will wipe out any potential gain by somehow picking the cyclone that has just a few percent better performance.

What have I learned? Well...run the widest pipe you can for your machine...for me that means a 7" main trunk cause that's what the inlet is on the Grizz G0440. Though tempted to go with cheap and more available 6" pvc, I spent the few extra dollars to get 26 guage metal pipe in 7" (can't get 7" in pvc). Also, despite the cost, I also pickup up some laterals designed for dust collection. With curves that are less harsh than standard HVAC parts, this ought to boost performance of my system.

As an FYI...the Penn State Industries site has some lower cost metal parts. If you want to go that route, check out their site.

Good luck...and to echo the earlier post...pick the one that, in your mind, fits with your budget and needs, and don't look back. Spend the rest of your time figuring out the piping.

Best,
Tim

[Brian Ross]

Keep in mind,

on the internet you often find a single person's perspective and not both sides of the story.

I'd get both sides of the story before making my decision if that's what you are going to base a decision on....


Other than that,

I'd find out which company's product best suits you needs and meets your specifications and budget. A very good point. Cyclones have been around for a long time and I find it hard to believe that Bill Pentz is the only expert in this field and that all the others should be considered second rate because they do not have his endorsement. Just my opinion.
Brian

[Andrew Thuswaldner]

I'm in the process of fixing up my garage with a sub-panel, new electrical outlets, insulation, gas heater. When this is done I'll be buying a cyclone. At this point I'm planning on getting the ClearVue. While it's a little more work getting it set up I believe it's the best design on the market. I don't really care if there is a bit of MDF and assembly required. From researching Bill Pentz website and reading a lot of dialog on the subject I believe ClearVue is based on the best design by Bill Pentz. Bill Pentz would seem to know more and certainly be willing to share more about dust collection than anyone. Ed Morgano (ClearVue owner) has spend a crazy amount of time replying to my relentless email questions. What's not to like? I would love to be convinced that I'd be better off buying an "out of the box" easy to install solution from one of the big guys (Griz or Onieda) but at this point the little guy seems to have the best design, and awesome customer service, the only draw-back being more work to install the product. That's my take.

[Cody Colston]

Like many have said here already, you will likely be satisfied with any of the "big three" manufacturers...Oneida, Grizzly, Clearvue. That's even more true when you consider someone spending $1000 on a cyclone is hardly going to admit they made a purchasing mistake.

What I do find humorous is that on any other tool, the absence of plastic and cheap materials like mdf is a major plus for most everyone. Steel seems to always equal quality. On cyclone collectors however, evidently the reverse is true for many.

Oh yeah, I've got an Oneida 2hp Commercial. I don't get mesmerized watching the chips swirl but it will last longer than I will be around. ;)

[Jim O'Dell]

When I spend $1000 or so on a cyclone, I am not going to buy something made out of plastic and mdf, regardless of who endorses it. I will buy something made out of steel that will not break when the movers lean on it wrong. snip

I was a little worried about the MDF which is why I sealed my MDF parts with several coats of poly. I wanted to seal it off from moisture. As far a strength goes, I don't see the problem. There is nothing riding on the MDF. It is used to cap the spacer that keeps blower housing separated so that the impeller has a place to spin in the air. The motor is mounted to it, actually suspended from it and I did beef that up with some angle iron front and rear. The sides of the motor mount on mine sit on two coupled 2X4 "arms". The mount is very solid. The thing that the PETG (it's not plastic like you find in toys for the kids!) in the blower housing takes some heat on is taking a hit from an object. But that's what the cyclone body is supposed to do isn't it? Get rid of all the debris before it gets to the impeller? If you have a good designed, or even an adequately designed, cyclone body, those objects will be taken care of well before they would get to the impeller and it's housing. When you consider that this material is used for police riot shields, you'll understand the impact resistance it has. Moisture won't affect it as it does steel. It's actually reported to me to be more expensive than steel, which points out that it's not cheaper to build it this way. It's quieter than steel. You're not going to damage it by bumping it to. I've had mine up and operational for a little over a year now, and there is no discoloration or degradation at all.


snip
Do a search here for cyclone to find frequent heavily debated threads on which cyclone is the best. It is a popular topic, and debates get so hot and heavy that you would think politics and religion were involved.

It is a religion, isn't it?:D:D You're right about these discussions. They can easily get out of hand. That's what happens when a diverse people have different beliefs and understandings.
As I said in an earlier post, all of the big 3 models that have been talked about here would be fine. I believe where Bill believes his design is better at separating the fine dust from the larger particles, is in the percentage shape of the cone. The original cyclones were used in agricultural settings. The materials it is used to separate have slightly different characteristics than saw dust. There is nothing wrong with their design. In fact, I wonder, if you used Bills design in the agricultural field, it might not work as well as the design they currently have. Our wood cyclones were derived from the agricultural units. Bill's "design", as I understand it, would be more properly termed a refinement for a specific use, rather than a true design. I believe the formulas that OAS, Grizzly, PSI, and others use are also refinements. I don't believe we will ever "know" which is best. Ask the manufacturers of the ones you are interested in to hook you up with someone in your area if possible to go look at a working system. I have hosted a gentleman that drove up from the Austin area to look at my Clear Vue. I think seeing a system operating helped him understand all that was involved. I think that will help you see what each requires, and therefore which one will ultimately be your choice. Jim.

[Tim Marks]

I find it hard to believe that Bill Pentz is the only expert in this field and that all the others should be considered second rate because they do not have his endorsement.
I would consider Robert Witter, the president of Oneida, who has a degree in Mechanical Engineering and a background in industrial hygene, to be an expert in the field. After-all, he was the one who started the home-workshop cyclone revolution. He employs Mechanical and Civil Engineers with prior experience in industrial HVAC, fluid dynamics, and Gas Chromatography/Mass Spectroscopy.

Industrial and agricutural applications for cyclons are big business There have been quite a few pHD`s who have made their life's work refining and optimizing cyclone design. Wang and Parnell of Texas A&M and Hyde of WSU are two that spring to mind.

Gary Hyde at WSU expermentally determined that the 1D2D design optimized dust collection in 1984, supported by a modified series of equations which defined the optimal cyclone size based upon air velocity and particle size, and the resulting collection efficiency.

Design spreadsheets to optimize cyclone efficiency have been around for more then 10 years. Neil Stone of ESCO engineering wrote a cyclone efficiency spreadsheet incorporating a neutral vane in 1997. http://www.mnsi.net/~pas/cyclone.zip (http://www.mnsi.net/~pas/cyclone.zip)

You want to see what REAL research into cyclone technology looks like, then look at the following thesis'. This Texas A&M one discusses the relative efficiencies between 1D2D, 2D2D, 1D3D designs (and CLEARLY documents alot of other research in this field):
TexasA&M Cyclone Efficiency Thesis (http://txspace.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/2192/etd-tamu-2004A-BAEN-Wang-1.pdf?)

Also this thesis is interesting because of the breadth of the discussion. Pay attention to the discussion in chapter 3 about improving efficiency. Then take a look at the references to see how much money and effort that has been poured into cyclone development.
Wollongong thesis (http://www.library.uow.edu.au/adt-NWU/uploads/approved/adt-NWU20070815.164233/public/)

[Phil Thien]

The thing that the PETG (it's not plastic like you find in toys for the kids!) ... When you consider that this material is used for police riot shields, you'll understand the impact resistance it has.

I think police riot shields are made from polycarbonate, which is substantially tougher (and more expensive) than PETG.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Please.....don't let this thread degrade into "who's more qualified or who's more expert" discussion.

[John Morrison60]

An additional factor that no one has mentioned -----
Where is it made? Sure is nice to support "Made in the USA."

Good Luck

[Steve knight]

I don't think the choice of what cyclone you buy (besides size is super critical) I got the clearview because I only needed the cyclone and blower at the time and I got a good deal.
but if I did it again I think I would go for the Oneida because of the better filter the muffler available and it would be easier to install.
but your piping and setup is the most important thing to get a good dc performance.

[Steven Wilson]

Call Oneida, order a 5hp model and appropriate pipe, write check, wait a few days, and install.

Or get a Felder RL160 if you have 3 phase.

What's the problem?

[Greg Funk]

Call Oneida, order a 5hp model and appropriate pipe, write check, wait a few days, and install.

Or get a Felder RL160 if you have 3 phase.

What's the problem?
Wouldn't that be overkill for most hobby shops?

[Barry Lloyd]

I don't know about you all but I'm one of the worlds worst at analyzing things to death. I'll download manuals, build spreadsheets to compare specs, and read everything I can before pulling the trigger on a purchase. I think I get too bogged down in "analysis paralysis". I tend to focus on esoteric specs that don't have a lot of direct impact on the final results the tools can produce.

When it comes to cyclones, like many of you I just spent 2 months reading, analyzing, and comparing. I ended up with the Grizzly 2HP model. Final deciding factors: Price (was on sale), performance (1300+ CFM), and construction (a lot of heavy gauge steel - built like a tank).

As with the other suggestions, I don't think anyone could go wrong with picking a product from one of the "big 3"...

Barry

[Tim Marks]

As with the other suggestions, I don't think anyone could go wrong with picking a product from one of the "big 3"..
Too bad woodsucker went out of business. I always thought that their design for mounting the filter was the best. I wish Grizzly would adopt this, since I never liked the looks of the flex tube on the blower outlet.

Woodsucker had one large housing enclosing the blower and the top of the filter, and they mounted a large bag around the filter and blew the air from the outside of the filter to the inside, and the exhaust came out the top. That way you could see if the filter was getting clogged, and it was easier to clean.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=80210&stc=1&d=1201483735

[Steve Roxberg]

I get the "You can see if the filter is getting clogged part of it, but how would it be easier to clean without getting dust everywhere?

[Rick Moyer]

I don't know about you all but I'm one of the worlds worst at analyzing things to death. I'll download manuals, build spreadsheets to compare specs, and read everything I can before pulling the trigger on a purchase. I think I get too bogged down in "analysis paralysis". I tend to focus on esoteric specs that don't have a lot of direct impact on the final results the tools can produce.


Barry

"Analysis Paralysis" You're preachin' to the choir!:)

[Steven Wilson]

Wouldn't that be overkill for most hobby shops?
I use to think so, but am not so sure now. If you believe that you need 800-1000CFM at the tool to collect fine dust properly then a 5HP unit would be sufficient for most things. Of course you would still need to redo the dust collection hoods on most of your tools to accomodate 6"-7" drops. Shapers, tablesaws, and a few other tools (larger drum sanders, widebelts, etc) would need multiple drops, so 5hp wouldn't be overkill.

[Bruce Wrenn]

When I built my cyclone, Onedia was the only player in the market. I built the Wood magazine cyclone, used my existing blower from a Cincinnatti Fan drum top unit. This unit was also sold by Delta and Grainger. . Added some of the 6" X 65" socks from Onedia and have been happy ever since. Do I need a bigger unit- I don't think so. This one will keep up with my Delta 15 planer with no problems. Blower unit is very quiet as compared to some of the ones with welded/ riveted steel impellers. The unit, cyclone, plentium, and socks only occupies a space that is 32"D. X 42"W. X 84"H.

[Dave Lewis]

I installed a Penn State ~ 3yrs. ago in a basement shop. The installation instructions were somewhat challenging, but it works fine and effective. That being said, many here seem pleased w/ Oneida.

Price pipe (I have "economy" ), fittings & ports as they can be as much as the cyclone.