Is all M2 steel created equal?

[Joel Sauder]

I am looking to get my hands on some M2 steel to make some homemade scrapers but I know nothing about steel. I hear all this talk about "good English steel" but is there really there really that much difference between makers of M2 steels? If I buy something listed as M2 High Speed Tool Steel and I going to have to do any annealing or tempering (which I know nothing about) to get it to hold and edge? I am looking at some tool steel offered by the Griggs Steel Company (http://www.griggssteel.com/)

Any pointers Creekers have would be greatly appriciated

Joel

[Jerry Casler]

Hi Joel check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAR1FHg0NoE

[Jerry Casler]

here is another link
http://www.buffaloprecision.com/data_sheets/DSM2HSbpp.pdf

and a link to the aaw forum

http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=1083

hope this helps

Jerry:rolleyes:

[EDDIE GLAZE]

look up tool steels on the internet

[Ben Gastfriend]

If you grind this steel, make sure you don't overheat it. As long as it does not lose it's temper (shown by changing color) you will not have to re-temper/anneal it. Good luck.

[David Wilhelm]

joel do you have the tools to do your heating ? I make my tools out of good high carbon steel I've never messed with M2 other than with the tools i own. It's fun to make your own tools and i've made several with carbon I watch for color change I don't bake them. You can however bake your tools for your temper. if you need some help feel free to email me and try to give you some pointers. keep the creek flowing!!

[Ben Gastfriend]

Look what I found. This article is very informative.

http://www.bigtreetools.com/articles/siegel%2018-4.pdf

Good luck.

[Chris Fierro]

Color change on M2 / HSS isn't the same deal as it is on carbon steel. You have to get HSS very hot before it will lost its temper. Pretty improbably that you'd get there on a grinder.

[Bill Bolen]

Yep, what Chris said! Tuning an edge blue on HSS makes no difference at all...Bill...

[robert hainstock]

We call it HSS., the brits call Shefield, the Germans call it Soligen.It is all pretty much the same. You can tell by the grinder sparking the general hardness, the harder the steel, the whiter the spark. carbon steel is more yellow. This is the country way to gage it. :confused::confused:
Bob

[Kevin McPeek]

I don't think I'd call it all the same stuff. I know that my HF tools that claim to be HSS are not anywhere near the quality of many of the other brands of tools that are HSS.
If they don't state how the steel is sold maybe you could call them and ask if it is annealed or what temper it is.

[Dean Thomas]

Two quick points, neither of which I can scholastically back up, but both of which were told me by guys who make their living selling and milling this quality of steel.

Yes, there is a range that is M2. If you want something verifiable, grind a HF Chinese M2 gouge and grind a Sheffield steel M2 gouge. The edge on the Sheffield holds markedly longer and you can grind a lot more steel away in less time on the Chinese steel.

Second (again, reporting what was told me, not declaring it to be gospel, okay??), it's true that a little color change in the blue range will not be the end of your HSS tool as it is with your high carbon tools, HOWEVER do not quench a piping hot HSS tool in water. That will do nasty things to the steel. It's okay to cool a tool that can be touched without burning your hand, and that's a good thing to do, but if you can't touch it without pain, don't quench it. Let it AIR cool until you can. Then cool it and be less aggressive about the grind.

Hope it helps.

[Joe Chritz]

There are a lot of different tool steels available. Some are oil hardening, such os 01. Some air hardening like A2 and some have very sophisticated hardening schedules.

Once upon a time I use to grind knives (now I just but the blades) from 01 or 440C stainless. It was $20 to have a couple pounds professionally hardened and tempered to your choice of hardness.

There are different grades of steel called the same thing but if it is truly M2 then it has certain properties. M2 is good steel but nowhere near the top in quality for cutting tools.

Joe

[EDDIE GLAZE]

Joel, Not All Tool Steel`s Are The Same...take A Look At Griggs Steel Co. Charts. The Hardness, Wear Resistance, Tuffnes Of The Steel`s Are All Different. M2 Max Hardeness,64 Rc. Others Up To 68 Rc. Pm M4, 64 Rc The Wear & Tufnes Are Better Than M2. Thompson Tools Are 60-62 Rc. Just A Suggestion, Tell Griggs Steel Co. What You Want The Tool Steel For,maby They Can Suggest What Type Would Be Best.

[Jim Underwood]

Interesting question.

If you had asked are all High Speed Steels the same, I'd have said no in an instant. There are several different grades of HSS, as noted by all the different designations.

It seems to me that M2 is but one grade of HSS, but there really shouldn't be much variation if M2 is a standard, should it?

That being said, I have a set of those HF HSS tools, and a set of Pinnacle tools. I took some of my Pinnacle tools to the woodworking show yesterday, and the president of one of the vendors sharpened my bowl gouge for me and showed me how they ground them for their classes. One of the comments he made about the tool was that it was noticeably softer than some of the top of the line HSS tools.

Eventually I'll be replacing my beginner sets with some more expensive tools.

[Don Orr]

As has already been said, there are many different types of High Speed Steel. Specifically, not all tool steels are HSS. M2 HSS has a very specific alloy formula with very tight limits on each alloy element. Heat treating M2 HSS is very complicated and cannot be accomplished by the average home metal worker. Much of the bulk M2 HSS readily available in bar stock is un-heat treated, meaning annealed and soft. Metal cutting bits like we use for hollowing are usually heat treated when purchased.

M2 HSS from Sheffield is quite different from Chinese HSS. The quality control is dramatically different in China than in England. Sheffield steel has a long history of high quality steel. If you grind Sheffield steel, you will see uniform dark orange sparks. If you grind Chinese HSS, you will see brighter orange sparks with some of the "sparkler" type sparks as well, like you would see when grinding plain Carbon steel. Chinese HSS is much coarser grain structure with lots more impurities and is usually softer. Sheffield steel is very clean and uniform in formula and grain structure. This is why particle metals have been such an improvement. The powder they are made from is extremely fine, and every particle is exactly the same as the other. So when the powder is heated and compressed into solid stock, the resulting material is very uniform and consistent. Not so with the Chinese steels. Many of the higher end turning tools are now made from particle steels. which is part of what makes them so expensive-the steel production process is very expensive but results in a superior steel. Even hand plane blades are being made with particle steels now. The extremely fine grain of these steels is part of what gives them the abilty to take and hold a very fine edge.

Just this past Saturday, I was teaching a bowl turning class. Our club has several Ben's Best tools. I showed the class the difference in steels by grinding a BB tool and then grinding one of my Artisan (Henry Taylor-Sheffield) tools. Very visible difference in the resulting sparks !

I do not claim to be an expert in steel, but I have read a lot on the subject. I also spent several years in the powdered metal industry working for Pratt-Whitney as a metallurgical tech in quality assurance doing chemical analyisis. I actually started out on the furnace and worked my way up to the QA lab. That was after getting my B.S. degree in Biology (not meatallurgy I know, but lots of chemistry and physics).

You can find the actual alloy composition of M2 HSS by searching the internet. It's really quite interesting.

So, my long winded answer to the original question is No, not all M2 HSS are the same.

[Joel Sauder]

Once again Creekers have been a great source if information. Thanks to all who posted.

I am going to see if I can get some pre-hardened M2 flat stock (from a quality source, not Chinese) and go at it with a grinder (I am looking for 3/8 by 1.5 by 8 inch bars).

If I can't find any of that then I think I will play with some O1 just to try out some scraper designs before I cough up the cash for a good M2 version. It will at least give me an excuse to learn a bit about hardening and tempering

Thanks Again

[Stan Harder]

You can look at enco < http://www.use-enco.com >.
They have hardened M2 tool bits up to 7 inches long. Not exactly the size you are asking for but close. They have 1/2 round bar m2 but it's only 6 inches long. I'd love to find some place that sells M2 bar stock that's at least 10 inches long. You could also try http://www.thompsonlathetools.com Doug sells CPM 10V® (A-11) power metal turning tools and will sell blanks but they aren't as cheap as simple HSS.

(I'm not associated with either company mentioned here.)

[Jim Underwood]

I believe MSC has some HSS tool bits that are 8 inches long. They may have some 10 inches, but they'd be a bit pricey.

[David Wilhelm]

Joel look around and see if you can find some old leaf springs or old carbon steel pre WWII or around then or buy tool steel. I've made spindle gouges skews 3/16 round, 1/4 round 1/2 round, 3/4round, some weird looking things, captive ring tools, a really cool hollowing tool, several mini's for pen turning. I'm working on a 3/4 oval skew now. Carbon is much easier to work with. Check it with a file, if the file slides on it you'll need to heat it cherry red and let it cool slow (anneal) so you can work with it. Harden it and temper once you have your basic tool shape. If you need help PM me.