First WW Project = YUCK (pic)

[Rob Watanabe]

I'm tackling my first project. Only experience I have is installing crown moulding (if that counts) in my old apt where I used to live. That was quite the challenge. Now I'm building some speakers for someone. It's made out of Baltic Birch ply. I applied wood conditioner before I stained, practiced on some scrap and it looked good. Stained the speaker and now it looks like a 2 year old did it. I used water based min wax wood conditioner and Varathane water based red mahogany stain. I'm at the point where I'm sanding off the stain and was wondering how much I have to remove before I can reapply the stain. The sides is what it looks like before the sanding. The top is sanded off more than the front. Is that good enough or should I keep going so no stain is visible. I'm using 180 grit sandpaper. Should I go lower like to 120? I'm afraid of sanding through the veneer. Any recommendations on what I should use for the conditioner and stain? De-waxed shellac and some other stain? I'm thinking that since I'm not experienced in WW and finishing that I didn't sand it well enough in the first place thus the blotchy mess. It will be well sanded after the stain removal! No matter how much I read, I'll never learn unless I've tried once before.

Rob

[Michael Gibbons]

Rob, Did you ever consider just painting them BLACK? I'm a stereo buff and know for a fact that some very high end speakers are painted black. Usually they are some type of oak veneer but I don't see why it won't work for you. Black coat first then maybe a satin poly on top.

[Joe Chritz]

Do a search for blotching or maple blotching. Birch does it but not as bad as maple. It happens because of the grain orientation and is a function of the wood.

A very light, generally sprayed, coat of dewaxed shellac before the stain will cure most of the blotching problems.

I haven't used red stains but I have heard they are difficult to get to work well. If you can paint it then it is good to go. Just put on a good primer and paint away. If you want to restain it the same color you should sand as much as you can. BB has pretty thick veneers normally.

Joe

[keith ouellette]

The problem is you need to sand off all the stain so you can get o the first step
which is to put something on the control the stain absorption (Min wax wood conditioner doesn't work well at all) like dewaxed shellac or thinned poly (I use 2 parts quick dry poly urethane to 3 parts mineral spirits followed by a light 320 grit sanding)
This is a problem because the birch plywood you used has a very thin veneer and will sand through very fast. If the stain color is important you can keep sanding and hope for the best. If the surface looks bad after sanding then go with the black paint suggested earlier.
Don't forget to remove all your sanding marks before refinishing.

[Brad Townsend]

Rob,

I may be presuming too much here. You may have a strong background in acoustics, etc. and if so, I apologize for what I am about to say. Your disappointment at the appearance of your speakers may be nothing compared to the disappointment you will have at the SOUND of them. Building speakers is like a black art. Several friends of mine have attempted it and ended up with visually beautiful results, but they sounded pretty awful. I concluded that speaker building is something best left to industry with expensive labs and test equipment. Sorry for being a wet blanket and I sincerely hope you prove me wrong.:)

Brad

[Brian Kerley]

Rob,

I may be presuming too much here. You may have a strong background in acoustics, etc. and if so, I apologize for what I am about to say. Your disappointment at the appearance of your speakers may be nothing compared to the disappointment you will have at the SOUND of them. Building speakers is like a black art. Several friends of mine have attempted it and ended up with visually beautiful results, but they sounded pretty awful. I concluded that speaker building is something best left to industry with expensive labs and test equipment. Sorry for being a wet blanket and I sincerely hope you prove me wrong.:)

Brad

All I will say is that I agree with it being a black art, but it is not something outside of the reach of individuals. As long as you follow plans that someone else has created, you should be ok. Though, you have to do a bit of research to make sure those plans are actually halfway decent. There's another forum I lurk on that is devoted to speaker building, and those guys do exceptional work. The amount of design and testing they put into these things is nothing short of amazing. It's not just build a box and toss in some drivers.

[John Canfield]

I have stained quite a bit of birch ply in the past with pretty good results. I always use gel stains and apply two coats. Using a dark stain helps with uniformity.

[M. A. Espinoza]

First the stain issue.

All is not lost but the paint it solution might be the best option. Baltic birch does have thicker veneers than other types but a sand through is still a strong possibility.

I suppose you can try sanding it off and if you burn through then you know its time for paint.

If you decide to re-stain then find some of your scrap and TEST your finish choices before applying to a completed project. Always do this if it isn't a finish process you have done before on that same material. Now you know why.

A spit coat of shellac is a very good idea before applying stain but there are some gel stains out there that might apply easier but again you need to test to know. Maybe someone here or on another forum can suggest something that works well for Baltic. I've stained it but not for any project I was super concerned about appearance and I just used Minwax from the hardware store. Sometimes it takes a few coats.

There are tons of speaker geek sites and information out there. Using a proven recipe is a safe solution however using sound calculations with proper construction will get good results with quality drivers. Many have done it as have I with satisfactory results. But then if you are a super audiophile you might hear my speakers and get nauseous, but they have even response, good extension and give a decent soundstage.

One of the first things I built when I got into building about fifteen years ago.

Good luck.

[Al Willits]

Building speakers can be as technical as you want, from requiring a degree to finding a DIY plan, also plywood is not the wood of choice, MDF would have been better.

But beyond that, what to do with the finish, thick or not you try sanding back to clean wood and I bet you'll sand though the veneer.
I'd sand them smooth with some 180 or 220 and paint them, black is fine but it really shows flaws so paint with something you can rub out, like lacquer.
The stuff in the spray cans will work but be patient, its gonna take a bit of work to prime and paint, then rub out, repaint, etc till they look good.
Check with your local paint store for what grits of wet or dry they reccomend, its a lot of work to get the piano black finish.

Or ya can do what I did on the first set of speakers I made for the garage, and paint them flat black, I just tell people its a trendy thing...:D

There's also veneers you can buy and and cover with.

Al

[Rob Watanabe]

Thank you all for your replies. For a test, I removed the stain on my scrap test piece and was quite aggressive with it (more than I would be on the speakers) and managed to remove it all without sanding through the veneer so I think I'll be ok. Looks like the consensus is to use de-waxed shellac and a gel stain. Had a hard time finding the shellac which is why I went with the wood conditioner. Will look harder this time around and won't use anything else until I find it. I have considered painting it but I'm making it my last option. I'm going to stick with staining for now.

As far as the technical aspects of the speaker itself, the cabinet is the design of whom I'm building it for (my boss). The only thing I have to worry about is the looks not the sound quality. He has had the same design built before so my boss must he happy with his design. The inner shell is made from 3/4" MDF and the outer cabinet is BB. The front panel has two inner 3/4" MDF panels as shown in the pic. It's 47" tall and 10 3/8" wide. The front is angled 7.5 degrees. Each cabinet consists of 2 x 8" drivers, 2 x 7" mid-ranges, and 2 x 2 3/4" tweeters. The drivers are separated inside the cabinet from the mid-ranges and tweeters by BB sandwiched with MDF. It also has 1 3/4 " square stock inside the cabinet for the speaker struts (which are installed inside the MDF side walls) vertically but angled from front to back. That's as far as I go with it. My boss installs the speakers, circuit board, wires, and anything else inside the cabinet.

[Danny Thompson]

The finisher in my family would solve this problem with an all-in-one stain/poly blend--most likely Olympic One-Step. You can achieve similar results by mixing your stain with poly, assuming they are both water-based or both oil-based. This essentially covers the wood with a colored film, for an even-looking coat.

You could stop sanding right now and try this method on one side. If it works, then you're done without the risk of sanding through the thin veneer of your ply.

[John Revilla]

maybe it's just me but I think the problem started when the stain was applied. I think the poster applied the stain and let it dry without removing excess first. The uneveness of stain penetration led me to conclude this. I've done quite a few speakers myself using baltic birch and MDF (12 and counting). It is imperative that 5 to 10 minutes after applying the stain, removal of the excess with a clean cloth follows or else you'll end up with blotchiness. It is impossible to sand the blotches and make the whole surface uniform again in color regardless whether you applied a "conditioner" before the stain application, nevermind that you might sand all the upper veneer.

In your case Rob, either you stain the whole speaker super dark to hide the imperfections or paint that thing. You can hide behind a good primer. Godspeed.

John Revilla M.D.

[Sam Yerardi]

John,

One other thing to consider on the different results you're talking about. If the BB has been sanded to a super smooth finish or is faced with tight grain to begin with, you might get less stain absorption. The more open the grain is on the surface, the more stain might soak in.

[Rob Watanabe]

Danny - Thanks for the tip. I will test several methods I've been given so far before I do it for real.

John - I did wipe after applying the stain. In fact if I waited around 5 minutes it would be too late so I almost had to wipe immediately. This could have been a factor since some spots could have dried before I wiped. I was using water-based.

Sam - I'm leaning towards my poor sanding job as mentioned. Even though it felt smooth, some areas were probably smoother than other areas.

Aside from testing several staining methods, I'm going to test on scrap to see how much it would take to sand through the veneer. I've heard other horror about this so I would like to see what it takes using my own ROS, sandpaper, technique (if I even have one) etc.

[Brian Weick]

You can sand the grain "shut" if you go to far with the fine grit sandpaper- I would go through the proper steps in your sanding - no more than 220 on that Birch veneer. that is why there is tone difference on the panel- if you sand the surface with the same process you will find you get an even finish throughout - the other product that I would recommend is a good dye and stain finish such as the NGR method. Look into it - you will never go back - I am not a fan of water based stains or urethanes for that matter- they do a poor job in my opinion. alcohol dye and 2nd application, over tone of rubbing stain and you will be surprised on the final outcome. :eek:
Brian :)

[Todd Bin]

It's made out of Baltic Birch ply.
Rob


Two words. Gel Stain.

Gel stain works the best on birch and maple and even cherry. All of these woods tend to blotch.

[Rob Watanabe]

.... - the other product that I would recommend is a good dye and stain finish such as the NGR method. Look into it - you will never go back - I am not a fan of water based stains or urethanes for that matter- they do a poor job in my opinion. alcohol dye and 2nd application, over tone of rubbing stain and you will be surprised on the final outcome. :eek:
Brian :)

Brian, would this be the same as using Aniline dye sold at Lee Valley?http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20081&cat=1,190,42996&ap=1 I've seen projects where they used this dye on Maple, looked horrible, but once they applied Varathane, it looked outstanding. This dye is water-based, not alcohol as you mentioned so maybe not.

[Brian Weick]

It is alcohol Ngr dye - Call your local "paint" store and ask the about the NGR method of finishing. Most high end furniture makers like to use this as I was told and I can see why- really makes the grain pop when it's used.
Brian :)

[Bob Feeser]

What a great time to learn about veneering. :D
You are going to have a challenge no matter how you deal with this. Trying to sand deep enough to get an absolutely virgin surface, something that is preferable when you are staining, in order to get even-ness, (there are of course exceptions to that rule) runs too big of a possibility of a sand through.
You could take the liberty of sanding it down to a rough surface, and apply 1/4" stock to the outside. Glue it on. Overextend one set of surfaces, the use a laminate trim router bit to dress the edges.
Pertaining to the ability to build speaker question, you can build a great set of speakers. Conventional wisdom only requires MDF internals that you have already done, a breathing hole for the woofer to be free to flex with, and a good set of speakers to install. Insulation inside of the cabinet helps to reduce boxiness to the sound. I did some basic research and built speaker cabinets before, and they sound and look great. You are on the right path. Sometimes the speaker manufacturers get into measuring some aspects of speakerage, that is more verbiage than speaker technology. The upper crust speaker community are willing to shell out some serious money, but they want to hear why they are buying the best, and the stereo stores are willing to give them what they want. Wear your wading boots, and just listen to the sound.
Of course there are fine tuning and adjustments that can make a difference in sound, but don't let that scare you. What if someone told JBL or Altec not to build speakers because that was better left to the pro's. You're a pro literally because you are getting paid to build speaker cabinets.
The shortest distance between 2 points on this set is of course to paint them. You have sharp corners that won't take to sanding too much with ply. You can see already that there are chips being taken out. A primer coat, filler, then reprime, then resand lightly with finer grit, and top coat.
If you are looking to impress the boss, who wants custom made cabinets with a natural finish, capping them with solid wood is an alternative, but faces challenges on its own. Doable, but a little help from your friends here at SMC is a good idea. Ask first, then move forward.

[Rob Watanabe]

What a great time to learn about veneering. :D


NOT! ;)

I sanded mosted of it off but a slight tinge is still visible but is pretty even throughout. I'm not going any further than that. This time around I got a bigger piece of scrap, and applied the same steps as I did on the speakers. Same conditioner, SP grit, coats, and sanded it all back down again to make it look the same way as the speakers do now (after the sanding). BTW, when I was staining my scrap it looked beautiful. John Revilla's point was definately a factor. If I only spent the same care and attention staining as I did building I wouldn't be in this mess. Anyhow, I have a scrap piece now that's in the same state as the speaker. I'm going to try water soluble analine dye. I finally found zinsser sealcoat in my parts of the world so I'll apply it after the dye. Then apply a finish coat and see how it looks. If it looks bad then I'll try gel stain on before the finish coat. I'll have lots of scrap pieces to test this. Something tells me that I should go back to the way I stained it in the first place. Now I know how to apply the stain properly instead of sloppy it on and not wiping it well enough.

My boss is the audiophile so I can't engage in speaker-talk. He had the same design built by a woodworker that builds furniture for a living which he ended up selling. The one I'm building he is keeping. That woodworker isn't interested in making anymore for him and he's had a hard time finding any other woodworker that is willing to build speakers. Not quite sure why that is but that's another thread.

PS. There are 2 x 2" holes for the baffle in the back of the cabinet which I'm assuming this is the breathing hole you are talking about. He says he puts in egg carton like material inside and brags about using solid silver wires. Whether that is good or bad I do not know (or care ;) ) I just have to follow his design and make the outside look pretty.

[Bob Feeser]

Rob,
I guess I am sort of playing armchair quarterback, so I respect what you are doing in the hands on state. Just as a point of interest, the finest speakers out there are made from MDF with veneer top coats. I have a $3200 pair of Sonys, that are made that way in Cherry veneer, and a good buddy of mine bought over $4000 Vienna Beethovens, and they have a beautiful select veneer coverings, with rounded corners on the top. (Did I hear vacuum press?) A lot of speaker manufacturers leave solid woods out of the picture because they create resonating tones. They prefer something like MDF that will absorb sound, not reflect it. That is what I understand, it has been a long time since I have been dealing with speaker construction. These days whatever you want to know, either go to SMC, or Google it. :)
PS: I can not help you with the gel stains, since I have never used them. You could say that staining is an art form, or you could look at it the way I do. I carefully choose my wood to match the color I am looking for, then finish it with a clear finish. If I ever have a problem like a scratch, clear repairs turn out real fine. Even with clear finishes you have to be careful. I think it was Bob Flexners book at Amazon that was a really great one when it comes to finishing. Yeah, "Understanding Wood Finishing (http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Wood-Finishing-Select-Finish/dp/0762106212/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201477767&sr=8-1)" It's a killer book on refinishing, the best. Check it out. This guy really knows, and has tips that come from years of practice. Every finish, every technique, every problem covered. I read it through, but have it in my "downstaris bathroom library" as a reference when I need it. :D


NOT! ;)

I sanded mosted of it off but a slight tinge is still visible but is pretty even throughout. I'm not going any further than that. This time around I got a bigger piece of scrap, and applied the same steps as I did on the speakers. Same conditioner, SP grit, coats, and sanded it all back down again to make it look the same way as the speakers do now (after the sanding). BTW, when I was staining my scrap it looked beautiful. John Revilla's point was definately a factor. If I only spent the same care and attention staining as I did building I wouldn't be in this mess. Anyhow, I have a scrap piece now that's in the same state as the speaker. I'm going to try water soluble analine dye. I finally found zinsser sealcoat in my parts of the world so I'll apply it after the dye. Then apply a finish coat and see how it looks. If it looks bad then I'll try gel stain on before the finish coat. I'll have lots of scrap pieces to test this. Something tells me that I should go back to the way I stained it in the first place. Now I know how to apply the stain properly instead of sloppy it on and not wiping it well enough.

My boss is the audiophile so I can't engage in speaker-talk. He had the same design built by a woodworker that builds furniture for a living which he ended up selling. The one I'm building he is keeping. That woodworker isn't interested in making anymore for him and he's had a hard time finding any other woodworker that is willing to build speakers. Not quite sure why that is but that's another thread.

PS. There are 2 x 2" holes for the baffle in the back of the cabinet which I'm assuming this is the breathing hole you are talking about. He says he puts in egg carton like material inside and brags about using solid silver wires. Whether that is good or bad I do not know (or care ;) ) I just have to follow his design and make the outside look pretty.

[Rob Watanabe]

I agree with you 100% regarding veneering. My "NOT" comment was towards my limited experience and right now I feel like I can't even "finish" a book! :rolleyes: I didn't mean to come across any other way.

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.