Modding your 1-stage DC for cleaner filters (Workshops)

[Phil Thien]

So a while ago I posted my separator design that uses a special baffle to optimize separation and reduce scrubbing. I noted that it could be used for 1-stage DC's, too.

David Romano modified his Jet DC1200 with the baffle and is reporting his results. He gave me permission to quote him and place a pic or two here:


To test the effectiveness of the baffle, I did something that I thhought would normally clog the canister. Having previously milled alot of Ipe and then cleaned the pleats of the canister the best I could, the inside of the canister was clean and yellow in color. So I took a 1x6 pine board, 5 feet long and milled on the jointer from a thickness of 3/4" to only 3/16". It made alot of white shavings that should be very easy to see.

After milling the board, I carefully took off the canister expecting it to dump a bunch of sawdust on my shoes, but I was amazed that there was hardly a spec of pine sawdust in it!

I told David I'd be posting here so hopefully if anyone has any questions he can help answer them.

More information about the separator baffle design can be seen at:

[Mike Goetzke]

Phil - this is excellent! It's exactly what I asked about in you original thread on this subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goetzke http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=715645#post715645)
Phil - great design and persistence!

I have a Jet DC with a canister on the top and bag on the bottom. I swear that if I clean the fine dust particles from the filter pleats and they fall into the bottom bag that they almost immediately find their way to the top again. Maybe a baffle like yours could be added to help reduce the lower bag turbulence which causes the small debris to always find it's way to the top while still having enough turbulence above the baffle to separate the dust from the air.

Mike

Mike, you need two: (1) Above the input that has a 7 or 8" hole centered in it. (2) Below the input, shaped as in the baffle on my page.

Of course, the input would have to be designed so it puts the debris into a circular motion already. I'm not an expert on single-stage collectors, but most of the ones I've seen and played with seem to do this.

Give it a shot, it substantially reduces the fines going into the filter.



I still don't understand what you mean in #1 above. Also, I would like to have more details on orientation, how it's mounted, what height is it mounted...

Thanks for sharing,

Mike

[Phil Thien]

#1 is the funnel that is normally part of the ring. I only called attention to it because I once ran into a very old, cheap DC that didn't have this donut/funnel. It is possible, I think, that the unit was shop made.

99.99% of single-stage DC owners will only need to add my baffle. It should be spaced approx. an inch or so under the bottom of the inlet. The larger radius should be underneath the inlet.

I've included a third picture from David's implementation that shows another angle.

BTW, David used 3/4" MDF, and screwed through the sides to attach his baffle. An alternative is to use dowel nuts with normal 1/4" machine screws (Phillips head):

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=1045

My local hardware store carries the dowel nuts.

To prevent the ring from distorting when you tighten the machine screws in the area where the baffle is held back from the inside edge (in the drop zone), you can make a spacer using plastic tubing with a 1/4" I.D.

[Bob Aquino]

Interesting. I have a PS dc250 that I retrofitted with a Wynn filter about 6 months ago. I find that it does build up some dust in the pleats. On this design, if I get it right, its got a 1.5" gap, 240 degrees around, and the 120 degree part is flush to the side of the metal. Is that where you are securing it or is it being secured all 360 degrees. (Where its catching shavings?) Does it reduce flow to the collector at all? Any issues using plywood over mdf?

[David Romano]

Interesting. I have a PS dc250 that I retrofitted with a Wynn filter about 6 months ago. I find that it does build up some dust in the pleats. On this design, if I get it right, its got a 1.5" gap, 240 degrees around, and the 120 degree part is flush to the side of the metal. Is that where you are securing it or is it being secured all 360 degrees. (Where its catching shavings?) Does it reduce flow to the collector at all? Any issues using plywood over mdf?

Bob,
It has about a 1.25" gap, but this is not exact. A good test would be to try different gaps. I am securing it with 3 screws along the flush part and just as a precaution, with 1 more in the center of the open part using a longer screw. Tighten the screw only until the gap is even otherwise you'll distort the metal. I don't know if this last screw is even needed. Obviously it will catch shavings, but the flow restriction and impact on separation is negligible. As far as the impact the the baffle has on airflow, I'm sure it is significant for a DC. For a shop vac, it doesn't matter because they can absorb the static pressure loss.

More testing has to be done to fine tune the separation. Of course there will be a limit to it's separation efficiency. MDF's dust is finer than plywood's, so you can test and draw your own conclusion. It's not a cyclone, but it's good enough for most people.

As I mentioned in my original post, it occured to me that there is a wedge shaped gap between the DC ring and the bottom of the canister. Before the baffle, when I took the canister off, there would always be dust left on the the DC ring. Do you see the same thing? We need to make a smoother path for the air going into the canister.

David

[Phil Thien]

Interesting. I have a PS dc250 that I retrofitted with a Wynn filter about 6 months ago. I find that it does build up some dust in the pleats. On this design, if I get it right, its got a 1.5" gap, 240 degrees around, and the 120 degree part is flush to the side of the metal. Is that where you are securing it or is it being secured all 360 degrees. (Where its catching shavings?) Does it reduce flow to the collector at all? Any issues using plywood over mdf?

The gap is 1-1/8" for 240-degrees of the baffle. The baffle is flush to the edge of the ring for 120-degrees. The 120-degree section should be placed under the input, as is designed to prevent the incoming airstream from causing too much turbulence in the bag.

The baffle is secured in at least three places. One on the 120-degree section, and two on the 240-degree section. I used some 1-1/8" long spacers between the ring and the baffle in the 240-degree section to accomodate the gap.

[Mike Goetzke]

Alright, I need to make one of these this weekend. One (of several, I'm sure) question. I see David made his out of 3/4" material. Is there any advantage to fabricate it from thinner stock?

Mike

[Bob Aquino]

Bob,
It has about a 1.25" gap, but this is not exact. A good test would be to try different gaps. I am securing it with 3 screws along the flush part and just as a precaution, with 1 more in the center of the open part using a longer screw. Tighten the screw only until the gap is even otherwise you'll distort the metal. I don't know if this last screw is even needed. Obviously it will catch shavings, but the flow restriction and impact on separation is negligible. As far as the impact the the baffle has on airflow, I'm sure it is significant for a DC. For a shop vac, it doesn't matter because they can absorb the static pressure loss.

More testing has to be done to fine tune the separation. Of course there will be a limit to it's separation efficiency. MDF's dust is finer than plywood's, so you can test and draw your own conclusion. It's not a cyclone, but it's good enough for most people.

As I mentioned in my original post, it occured to me that there is a wedge shaped gap between the DC ring and the bottom of the canister. Before the baffle, when I took the canister off, there would always be dust left on the the DC ring. Do you see the same thing? We need to make a smoother path for the air going into the canister.

David

My cannister conversion was a bit different, I didn't have a 360 degree flush surface to mount the cannister so I made a donut that sits in the top of the metal base and the cannister sits on top of that. Consequently, I don't have any buildup of dust on the inside edge of the cannister. It has a mildly spiraled surface that pushes the airflow down to the lower bag. When its running, it looks like a tornado, but maybe they all do that.
http://lh6.google.com/aquino.bob/R1qirQRuhlI/AAAAAAAAAQk/t0aHBYAxPPU/s400/P1010728.JPG

My concern with this design would be how much if any flow could be lost. Not sure if you already answered the question, but do you have a feel for whether the flow is about the same or noticeably different with the baffle in the collector? Have you thought about something like a neutral vane, or some type of extension from the inlet into the housing that directs the air flow farther downward and possibly limits the turbulence in that area of the collector?

[Bas Pluim]

I made mine out of 5/8" particle board, same material I used for the lid for my trashcan. It doesn't need to be that thick, just make sure it doesn't flex too easily. 1/2" plywood, or even 1/4" MDF should do fine.
I have to remove the lid (and baffle) to empty the can, so any reduction in weight makes it easier to lift it. But, that's not much of an advantage - the can is heaver than the lid anyway. I suggest you use whatever material you have on hand, cheap is a real advantage!

[David Romano]

Alright, I need to make one of these this weekend. One (of several, I'm sure) question. I see David made his out of 3/4" material. Is there any advantage to fabricate it from thinner stock?

Mike

In theory, probably. In practice, doubtful.

[David Romano]

My concern with this design would be how much if any flow could be lost. Not sure if you already answered the question, but do you have a feel for whether the flow is about the same or noticeably different with the baffle in the collector? Have you thought about something like a neutral vane, or some type of extension from the inlet into the housing that directs the air flow farther downward and possibly limits the turbulence in that area of the collector?

There is no doubt that there is less airflow, but I have not measured it. I would like to very much, but I can't afford a pitot tube right now. In fact, I'm out of a job in one week. We're having massive lay-offs here.

This is very subjective, but there is not a "noticeable difference" in airflow. But, it could have dropped from 900 cfm to 700 and it still seems like "alot of air flow"

I did have a neutral vane. I took it out. It seemed to me that it may hurt separation by providing a hard surface for the dirty air to collide with and get deflected out and into the canister. Maybe with the baffle, the air is clean at that point anyway. But without the baffle I bet that it is still quite dirty. Maybe the vane was responsible for alot of my canister clogging problems.

All the talk about the neutral vane is that it help airflow, and I have no reason to disagree with that, but there is never a mention of separation efficiency. It would also depend on the design of the DC. An air ramp would be good match for the vane, as it seems your PS sort of has, but my Jet DC and most others have a simpler design.

I realize that questioning the neutral vane is tantamount to heresy at this point in any discussion about dust collection, but so what. I would like to see someone prove the effect of the vane on separation, with and without the baffle.

David

[joe milana]

I don't understand how the dust gets down below the baffle. Can someone explain?

Thanks!

[Phil Thien]

I don't understand how the dust gets down below the baffle. Can someone explain?

Thanks!

Gravity. Incoming airstream with suspended dust is spun in a circular motion. The contact with the outside edge of the can causes the dust to slow down, whereupon gravity can pull it down into the can.

BTW, in case you didn't notice, the baffle does have a "drop zone" in it where there is a gap between the baffle and the can for the dust to drop.

[joe milana]

I see, but what if there is a high volume of dust/chips? ie: planing or sweeping a large pile of dust/chips into a floor sweep? Is there a problem with clogging?
I am trying to decide between a single stage dust collector and a cyclone. I would like to save the $$'s if possible, but if a cyclone will pay for itself in the long run with filter cost savings, I will go that route.
Cyclones seem to have more effective filtering. ie: <1 micron as opposed to the oem canisters at about 2 microns, or do I need to invest in a filter upgrade?
Thanks for all the helpful input!

[Steve Sawyer]

I haven't tried Phil's baffle inside the DC unit, opting instead for a two-stage setup. That said, though I can contribute the following to the discussion:



Thickness of the baffle - I cut two baffles from 1/8" particleboard, and glued them together to make a baffle about 1/4" thick.
Clogging - the advantage of the two-stage is that the first stage gets all the large chips (especially those produced in high volume from operations like jointing and planing) into a more easily emptied drum, allowing the DC system to deal with the fines. I have had no problem whatsoever with clogging of the baffle from these kinds of high-volume chips.
Baffle attachment - threaded rod extending vertically through the upper "donut" shaped baffle and into the lower baffle with the 240-degree slot work very well, and do not impede the airflow at it's most critical point, around the perimeter of the central drum.

[Phil Thien]

I see, but what if there is a high volume of dust/chips? ie: planing or sweeping a large pile of dust/chips into a floor sweep? Is there a problem with clogging?
I am trying to decide between a single stage dust collector and a cyclone. I would like to save the $$'s if possible, but if a cyclone will pay for itself in the long run with filter cost savings, I will go that route.
Cyclones seem to have more effective filtering. ie: <1 micron as opposed to the oem canisters at about 2 microns, or do I need to invest in a filter upgrade?
Thanks for all the helpful input!

I wouldn't worry too much about the capacity of a baffle-modded DC. It should be able to keep up with whatever you throw at it.

But quite frankly, if you can afford the bucks for a big cyclone (like an Oneida or ClearView), then perhaps that would be the best way to go?

[Bob Hallowell]

I modded mine and posted it on the workshop forum a month ago. I had an old 2hp grizz. I now directly vent it outside and very little dust escapes and what does blows away. I love it but that being said in a few years when I boild my new shop I will buy or make a cyclone.

Bob

[Steve Sawyer]

Re cyclones, while they're undoubtedly effective at filtering, you can get equally good performance from a standard DC fitted with a .5 micron filter, such as the one I purchased from Wynn Environmental.

The only downside I see to a cyclone is that when you're producing chips in high volume, the small container fitted to most cyclones will fill very quickly. However, this is somewhat offset by the ease of emptying that container on some designs.

For my money (which is a very limited resource) a two-stage setup using a home-made 30-gallon chip separator equipped with Phil's baffle, and a .5 micron filter cartridge on a run-of the mill 2 HP DC works extremely well. Floor space considerations make a cyclone very attractive, but alas I have very low ceilings in the shop so a cyclone isn't really practical.

[Randal Stevenson]

For my money (which is a very limited resource) a two-stage setup using a home-made 30-gallon chip separator equipped with Phil's baffle, and a .5 micron filter cartridge on a run-of the mill 2 HP DC works extremely well. Floor space considerations make a cyclone very attractive, but alas I have very low ceilings in the shop so a cyclone isn't really practical.

I do wonder with a two stage, if Phil or anyone did any Dylos testing, or any other tests, to see what two stage method worked better. Baffle on the chip seperator, with and without a neutral vane, or baffle on the dust collector, but not on the chip seperator?

Thanks

[Steve Sawyer]

I do wonder...if Phil or anyone did any Dylos testing, or any other tests

That might be interesting from an academic standpoint, but I just know that empirically speaking, it works really, really well...:D

[Gary McKown]

Good thread, answers many questions as I'm about to embark on the great baffle pursuit for a PSI 2 hp unit.

Phil, I see from David's pics that fine dust tends to collect on the flat baffle, which is also made of non-conducting material. This would also collect any dust cleaned from the pleats with the flappers. What about a dome-shaped baffle, especially one made of metal and grounded? I'm wondering if this might reduce the dust buildup and also possibly help with airflow and/or cyclonic action.

Somewhere in the universe there must be a readily-available dome shape that could be tried for this. Possibilities - bottom of a steel drum or the top of a plastic garbage can covered with aluminum foil, or maybe one made from an arc of sheet metal.

[Phil Thien]

I do wonder with a two stage, if Phil or anyone did any Dylos testing, or any other tests, to see what two stage method worked better. Baffle on the chip seperator, with and without a neutral vane, or baffle on the dust collector, but not on the chip seperator?

Thanks

Well, the Dylos is ultimately going to be a better test of the final stage filter (the bag or cart. filter that the fines get pushed into).

To offer a couple of generalizations: (1) Single stage w/ baffle and without NV is going to offer the highest CFM. (2) Adding a 2nd stage (separator in front of DC) is going to take a larger hit to CFM, but provide easier emptying.

I know of a couple of users that did both. After adding a baffle they saw no perceptible hit to CFM. So they added a trash-can separator in front of their jointers and planers only. The table saw, sander, and any other tools bypass the 2nd stage and go right to the DC.

[Phil Thien]

Good thread, answers many questions as I'm about to embark on the great baffle pursuit for a PSI 2 hp unit.

Phil, I see from David's pics that fine dust tends to collect on the flat baffle, which is also made of non-conducting material. This would also collect any dust cleaned from the pleats with the flappers. What about a dome-shaped baffle, especially one made of metal and grounded? I'm wondering if this might reduce the dust buildup and also possibly help with airflow and/or cyclonic action.

Somewhere in the universe there must be a readily-available dome shape that could be tried for this. Possibilities - bottom of a steel drum or the top of a plastic garbage can covered with aluminum foil, or maybe one made from an arc of sheet metal.

That pic shows the dust clinging to the bottom of the baffle. The top of the baffle stays relatively dust-free.

[Randal Stevenson]

Well, the Dylos is ultimately going to be a better test of the final stage filter (the bag or cart. filter that the fines get pushed into).

To offer a couple of generalizations: (1) Single stage w/ baffle and without NV is going to offer the highest CFM. (2) Adding a 2nd stage (separator in front of DC) is going to take a larger hit to CFM, but provide easier emptying.

I know of a couple of users that did both. After adding a baffle they saw no perceptible hit to CFM. So they added a trash-can separator in front of their jointers and planers only. The table saw, sander, and any other tools bypass the 2nd stage and go right to the DC.

Actually, while the Dylos tests the filter, I wondered, if one got more fines, one way or another.
But, that said, thank you for posting the users experience, and your baffle!

[Phil Thien]

Actually, while the Dylos tests the filter, I wondered, if one got more fines, one way or another.
But, that said, thank you for posting the users experience, and your baffle!

I would have to say the unit that is moving more CFM (all other things being equal) would get more fines. I would imagine that would be the modded single-stage, w/o the separator.

BUT, in my experience, even when I do something stupid in my shop (like running a hand-held tool w/o turning on the vac, or cutting at the table saw w/o turning on the vac), I've learned that recovery for heavily dust-laden air happens pretty quickly.

I'm not saying I'm not concerned about the fines. I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't let a slight decrease in CFM scare me away from using a pre-separator if the convenience of emptying one appealed to me.

[Jay Jolliffe]

[quote=Phil Thien;870130]I wouldn't worry too much about the capacity of a baffle-modded DC. It should be able to keep up with whatever you throw at it.
I beg to differ on this....I have a 2hp delta chip collector & I added the baffle modification to it. I made it to the dimensions stated earlier in the thread. I found out the metal round ring that the chips come into is not round. The first on I made was round & it didn't come close to fitting. So I used the ring as a template & that worked much better. Also I added a canister filter on top. Last week I was dadoing a lot of mahogany for making screens for my porch. I keep looking at the collector & it didn't seem to be filling up so I pulled the 4" hose off my table saw & no suction. Took the canister off , it was chock full backed up from the baffle. It worked great before & has worked great after that. So has this happened to anyone else ?

[Steve Sawyer]

it was chock full backed up from the baffle. It worked great before & has worked great after that. So has this happened to anyone else ?

Not to me. I was used to going over and smacking the sides of my filter cartridge on a regular basis, and seeing the big clumps of dust and chips falling into the collection bag.

I hooked a Thien-baffle-equipped chip separator for use with my jointer and planer into the "circuit", and was getting almost no dust packed into the filter. When I use my table and band saw (which don't go through the chip separator), I again start to collect noticeable amounts of dust in the filter cartridge.

[joe milana]

it was chock full backed up from the baffle...


This is what I am concerned about. I am no physicist, but it seems to me the baffle would make it more difficult for the chips to fall down into the bag and give some dust a direct route up into the filter. Why wouldn't it be better to simply make the hole smaller at the top of the intake and leave the bottom open allowing the chips to swirl their way to the bottom of the bag.
Just wondering...

[Phil Thien]

[quote=Phil Thien;870130]I wouldn't worry too much about the capacity of a baffle-modded DC. It should be able to keep up with whatever you throw at it.
I beg to differ on this....I have a 2hp delta chip collector & I added the baffle modification to it. I made it to the dimensions stated earlier in the thread. I found out the metal round ring that the chips come into is not round. The first on I made was round & it didn't come close to fitting. So I used the ring as a template & that worked much better. Also I added a canister filter on top. Last week I was dadoing a lot of mahogany for making screens for my porch. I keep looking at the collector & it didn't seem to be filling up so I pulled the 4" hose off my table saw & no suction. Took the canister off , it was chock full backed up from the baffle. It worked great before & has worked great after that. So has this happened to anyone else ?

Something aint right. Care to post a couple of pics of your ring with the baffle? If there is a problem perhaps I can spot it. BTW, which Delta do you have? I know some of them have extra lips/ledges which can catch debris.

And I didn't mean to be flip by saying "handle anything you throw at it." But even with rather large planers, it has been reported that with high feed rates the baffled units have no problem keeping up. And dust from a router should be much finer and easier to get through the drop slot than the large chips from a planer.

[Phil Thien]

it was chock full backed up from the baffle...


This is what I am concerned about. I am no physicist, but it seems to me the baffle would make it more difficult for the chips to fall down into the bag and give some dust a direct route up into the filter. Why wouldn't it be better to simply make the hole smaller at the top of the intake and leave the bottom open allowing the chips to swirl their way to the bottom of the bag.
Just wondering...

Because reducing that hole size is gonna kill your CFM.

While the baffle looks pretty simple, it is actually pretty well thought out. And this would be the first report of a clog I've heard of. I suspect his Delta DC has an extra ledge/lip like some I've seen, perhaps he will post some pics for us. I'm sure we can figure it out.

[joe milana]

I sure appreciate all the feedback. This forum is a real asset. I hope I am not getting too off topic by raising the question: Why are all these dust collectors designed to carry the debris through the impeller and then forced through the filter unlike most other vacuum designs that filter the air first? I hate the idea of installing a floor sweep then hearing small blocks of wood, screws, nails, etc. going through the impeller.

[Edward Warren]

I am sorry to be so clueless here, Is the consensus to have a neutral vane, or delete it?

[Phil Thien]

I am sorry to be so clueless here, Is the consensus to have a neutral vane, or delete it?


If you're going to use a baffle inside the DC ring, then lose the neutral vane.

[Edward Warren]

Thanks Phil.

OK, now another perhaps overly detailed question:

I have the 2hp Grizzly G1029Z and have upgraded the filter to the Canister filter. This unit's specs show a capacity of 1550 CFM.

I have noticed that the next model up the Grizzly line, the G0548 which is also 2hp, shows a capacity of 1700CFM.

When I inquired about this difference in capacity they mentioned the motor and the impeller are the same between the two units, but the connection from the impeller to the separator offered more flow since it is a one piece all steel pipe that is smooth inside.

OK, that's fine, but when I measure my flex-pipe that runs between the impeller and the separator on the 1029, it measures about 5" in diameter, not the 6" diameter that is on the intake side of the impeller. From observing the images of these two machines, the G0548 seems to have a 5"x6" rectangular connection here which is about the equivalent of a 6" diameter round pipe…again - larger than the 1029.

This is getting long...sorry...

So my question here is - have others noticed a smaller hose/pipe between the impeller and the separator on some units?

And - has anyone tried increasing the diameter of this pipe? (I am thinking of putting a 6" solid pipe on mine to match the intake side of the machine as well as the size of the G0548 model)?

[Bart Leetch]

I sure appreciate all the feedback. This forum is a real asset. I hope I am not getting too off topic by raising the question: Why are all these dust collectors designed to carry the debris through the impeller and then forced through the filter unlike most other vacuum designs that filter the air first? I hate the idea of installing a floor sweep then hearing small blocks of wood, screws, nails, etc. going through the impeller.

I would never recommend a floor sweep on a single stage DC for just this reason , In my shop that is what the shop vac is used for. Besides that I can reach into corners & other small places with a shop vac that a broom will not get into.

I also wrap the vac filter with a panty hose top to help keep the pleated filter clean.

[Phil Thien]

So my question here is - have others noticed a smaller hose/pipe between the impeller and the separator on some units?

And - has anyone tried increasing the diameter of this pipe? (I am thinking of putting a 6" solid pipe on mine to match the intake side of the machine as well as the size of the G0548 model)?

I think the size discrepancy is fairly typical, and I have read a post over at woodnet by a guy that has done exactly what you describe. If you can't find it PM me and I'll help ya.

[Edward Warren]

I couldn't find the post you are referring to, but I think I am going to mod my machine to the 6” anyway...especially considering the size of the inlet on the next model up their line.

Furthermore, I plan on moving the separator up and directly above the blower. This will give me a smaller footprint to fit in a corner closet in my shop/garage while keeping my inlet low and straight…I hope.

Of course I will also be putting in one of your baffles…hopefully that will be the end of my dust problems and I can move on to projects that are more fun.

I’ll post images once I get done if you want…likely in about two weeks because of my workload.

[Bart Leetch]

I couldn't find the post you are referring to, but I think I am going to mod my machine to the 6” anyway...especially considering the size of the inlet on the next model up their line.

Furthermore, I plan on moving the separator up and directly above the blower. This will give me a smaller footprint to fit in a corner closet in my shop/garage while keeping my inlet low and straight…I hope.

Of course I will also be putting in one of your baffles…hopefully that will be the end of my dust problems and I can move on to projects that are more fun.

I’ll post images once I get done if you want…likely in about two weeks because of my workload.

Edward
If I understand you right your going to have a 6" outlet out of the impeller housing going into a separator & probably a 6" outlet out of the separator?

If this is so don't plan on keeping the chips & dust in the separator they will get blown right through & into the DC bag. As I understand it most separators with intakes & exhausts over 4" don't retain the chips & dust in the container.

[Edward Warren]

I think you're misunderstanding me -

I am just going to change the 5" flex-hose to a single 6" diameter solid pipe going between the blower unit (impeller) and the separator. The filter and bag on the separator will remain standard issue and standard size of about 19" to 20" in diameter.

This will require some metal working on the blower outlet as well as the separator inlet to accommodate the 6" pipe.

[Bart Leetch]

Thanks for clearing that up Edward.

I have seen where the impeller housing was raised up on a support & shot straight into the bag rim causing better cfm.

[David Romano]

If the separator ring inlet and the impeller outlet each have a 5" inlet, what good would it do running 6" hose between them? It's only about 2 feet long. I agree with the observation that it is silly for the impeller to have a smaller outlet than inlet. It should be larger.

Smooth walled would help, but 6" pipe smooth or not would require a 6" outlet from the impeller and a 6" inlet to the separator. At that point, you'd might as well build your own DC.

David

[Phil Thien]

If the separator ring inlet and the impeller outlet each have a 5" inlet, what good would it do running 6" hose between them? It's only about 2 feet long. I agree with the observation that it is silly for the impeller to have a smaller outlet than inlet. It should be larger.

Smooth walled would help, but 6" pipe smooth or not would require a 6" outlet from the impeller and a 6" inlet to the separator. At that point, you'd might as well build your own DC.

David

George Lesniak has some pics of his ring at Woodnet. It appears he modified his ring with a 6" inlet (replacing the 5") and that the blower's square/rectangular outlet accomodated the 6" hard pipe.

He did a nice job, too. Can't really tell he changed the ring except the new inlet is made from spiral pipe.

The thread is titled "Dust collection system instalation [sic] thread" if anyone wants to see the pics.

[Edward Warren]

I look for it some more Phil - thanks.

David - Like I mentioned, there will be some metalwork to do, but not nearly as much as starting from scratch. Fortunately, I have a small welder although thin metals are challenging.

The reason to go bigger by an inch is simple airflow. The cross-sectional area of the 5" hose is 19.6" whereas the 6" is 28.3". That's about a 44% increase.

Remember that I need to modify this anyway in order to fit in the location I want.

[David Romano]

So, you are increasing the size of the outlet of the impeller and the inlet to the separator ring?

David

[Edward Warren]

Yes David – exactly.

I found it Phil - Thanks.

What George did is exactly what I have in mind including your baffle. Great minds think alike - right?

The only exception is that I intend to have the blower on the bottom and build a small platform so the bag/separator/filter will be directly above the blower. This will make my footprint small enough to fit inside my closet, albeit the whole arrangement will be tall. Quite an effort to fit it where I want it…I know.

I thought about putting the blower/ducting on top but I ultimately felt that this would complicate my installation as well as clutter the look of my shop/garage with all that ducting being overhead and hanging from the ceiling.

The only downside of having the blower and main ducts low is that I’ll have to step over a single duct going to my table saw, and have another duct for over the blade of the TS. Otherwise, all the ductwork should end up along one wall along the floor.

I also think this way I might end up with a more efficient arrangement since the only time I will be asking the duct and debris to go up against gravity will be in this 6” duct between the blower and separator and that duct over the TS blade. Otherwise, everything is traveling down or across laterally.

I can’t wait until this job is over. Hopefully I won’t have to think about this anymore.

[Dennis Lopeman]

Where can I get a metal trash can?? I know stupid question! I'm doing a google search and not getting very good results...

I suppose I could just peruse the local BORGS, but who likes doing that!??!?

[Steve Sawyer]

Where can I get a metal trash can??

I had better luck at the local hardware store than I did at the BORG. Good, old-fashioned bright shiny galvanized trash can.

By the way, even better than a trash can, at least from a capacity standpoint is a 30-gallon drum. They come in both fiber and plastic and can be had free or for very little cost. Even better if you can get the lids which clamp on tightly. I paid $5 for my plastic drum from a place that buys some kind of foodstuffs (tomato paste I think) in them. They have a plastic bag liner so the drums when discarded are clean as a whistle. It holds a ton of chips. They take up just a tad more floor space, but they're about a foot or so taller than a standard trash can.

[Dennis Lopeman]

I had better luck at the local hardware store than I did at the BORG. Good, old-fashioned bright shiny galvanized trash can.

By the way, even better than a trash can, at least from a capacity standpoint is a 30-gallon drum. They come in both fiber and plastic and can be had free or for very little cost. Even better if you can get the lids which clamp on tightly. I paid $5 for my plastic drum from a place that buys some kind of foodstuffs (tomato paste I think) in them. They have a plastic bag liner so the drums when discarded are clean as a whistle. It holds a ton of chips. They take up just a tad more floor space, but they're about a foot or so taller than a standard trash can.

Nice - good idea - I was thinking steel drum but trying to think where I saw one - like a yard sale or something!

I went on Orange BORG site and saw a galvanized 31 gal for $19 - thats do-able...

[Robin Cruz]

If if do a chip collector can, how do you seal the top so its still easily removable...either with a metal or rubbermaid can?
thanks

[Steve Sawyer]

If if do a chip collector can, how do you seal the top so its still easily removable...either with a metal or rubbermaid can?
thanks

With the metal can I used, I bought a bicycle inner tube, sliced it open around the circumference, then cut it to form a long narrow strip. Then, using some contact cement I glued this into a ring that was tight enough to wrap around the top of the can and over the lip of the lid. To remove the top, I just rolled the strip down off of the lid, dumped it, then rolled the strip back up over the lip.

This has the advantage of allowing the vacuum within the can to do a pretty good job of sealing it tight.

Nothing I tried in the way of a gasket inside the lid worked for very long.

Also, I understand that those rubbermaid trash cans aren't rigid enough and will collapse from the vacuum.

The best solution, however, is to get one of those 30-gallon fiber or plastic drums WITH THE LID AND THE SPRING TOGGLE BAND. Those seal real tight, are easy to open for emptying, and it's easy to install hose fittings in the top.

[Robin Cruz]

I see..thanks. I have a small rubbermaid can before the 2hp HF DC to catch the big chucks so that dont bend the impeller blades. I can see it slightly suck in on itself but its plenty strong to hold up to the best suction that HF can put out.

[Jay Yoder]

I thought i saw somewhere on this site the details (plansO of The Thein baffle but now i cant see to find them...i have a Jet 1100 w/ canister and would like to maximize it's efficiently!! thanks go out especially to Phil for this awesome improvement!!!!

[Steve Sawyer]

I thought i saw somewhere on this site the details (plansO of The Thein baffle but now i cant see to find them...i have a Jet 1100 w/ canister and would like to maximize it's efficiently!! thanks go out especially to Phil for this awesome improvement!!!!

You'll find all the info here:

[Bart Leetch]

I thought i saw somewhere on this site the details (plansO of The Thein baffle but now i cant see to find them...i have a Jet 1100 w/ canister and would like to maximize it's efficiently!! thanks go out especially to Phil for this awesome improvement!!!!



Gosh Jay put your glasses on :eek::):D its like
Steve said right here.

[Robin Cruz]

I installed the baffle in the HF 2hp DC just this evening. I cleaned the Wynn filter prior and had about 1gal of fine dust. I sucked the same 1gal of find dust up after the mod. I thought still quite a bit got into the filter so the votes out until I do some more dust collecting.

The cyclone was still going on in the collection bag. I thought the baffle stopped the cyclone in the collection bag. Is that true? I have about a 1 1/8" gap 240 degrees and the out flow is on 120 degree the section touching the ring.

[David Romano]

I installed the baffle in the HF 2hp DC just this evening. I cleaned the Wynn filter prior and had about 1gal of fine dust. I sucked the same 1gal of find dust up after the mod. I thought still quite a bit got into the filter so the votes out until I do some more dust collecting.

The cyclone was still going on in the collection bag. I thought the baffle stopped the cyclone in the collection bag. Is that true? I have about a 1 1/8" gap 240 degrees and the out flow is on 120 degree the section touching the ring.

The cyclonic action of the dust does not stop. The baffle allows the dust to slip past it along the 240 degree gap, rotate around the bag, slowing down in the process and settling out, while preventing the normal updraft of air and and dust up through the separator ring. The dust that would normally escape the bag by coming up through the middle is blocked by the baffle and sent back into the whirling stream of air coming in along the edge. This is how it works.

Give us some pictures of your mod and maybe we can see what went wrong

David

[Phil Thien]

I installed the baffle in the HF 2hp DC just this evening. I cleaned the Wynn filter prior and had about 1gal of fine dust. I sucked the same 1gal of find dust up after the mod. I thought still quite a bit got into the filter so the votes out until I do some more dust collecting.

The cyclone was still going on in the collection bag. I thought the baffle stopped the cyclone in the collection bag. Is that true? I have about a 1 1/8" gap 240 degrees and the out flow is on 120 degree the section touching the ring.

What David said above (particularly photos). Also, make sure you don't stuff the unit when testing. The faster you feed a cyclone, the less efficient the separation. So you may want to repeat the test and feed the DC at about the same rate as a machine would pump out chips/dust.

And it can help to weigh the test media before and after the test (which requires emptying the bottom bag).

[Robin Cruz]

OK. those are good points. I did gorg the machine no doubt. I can try again and post some pics this weekend and weigh before and after when testing with a more gentle dust stream.

[Joshua O Lilburn]

Is there any reason not to mount the baffle to the separtor ring similar to the trash can separation design using round bar stock?

[Phil Thien]

Is there any reason not to mount the baffle to the separtor ring similar to the trash can separation design using round bar stock?

Many rings have a donut that isn't flat, but is shaped a little like a funnel. So mounting this way can be tricky. If you can pull it off, it would work fine.

[Robin Cruz]

to follow up on by baffle install:

I installed a baffle in a Harbor Freight DC unit that uses a Wynn 0.5 micron filter. I installed the baffle made from 3/4 MDF in the center section of the HF below the funnel and the intake. I ran a threaded rod up from the baffles center to hold the Wynn Filter in place with a threaded knob.

Without Baffle.
Before the baffle, in a short time the filter would be clogged and I would clean by thumping and blowing air out to in. The clogging was significant as all the pleats inside the filter were packed with dust and shavings. I would have to repeat this often to get acceptable draw and when the bag got over 1/2 full it would clog in just a few minutes. I guess the cyclone was actually blowing the bag discard back up into the filter. When I change the bag out I also clean the filter thoroughly with compressed and shop vac. I will get at least 1 gal of dust/debris out of the filter pleats.

WIth the Baffle.
I used the DC with the baffle for a few weeks now. DO all sorts of tasks from planning to sanding. The bag is about 1/4 full. During this entire time, I never felt that the DC had diminished much at all without ever cleaning the filter. I removed the filter today and inspected it. The pleats were remakably clean with 0 evidence of shavings.....just fine just. I used a shop vac and blew compressed air outside in to thoroughly clean the filter. When done there was about 1/4" of find dust in the shopvac. Also I noticed most of the dust was capture near the bottom of the filter suggesting the baffle is doing its thing.

Its not scientific, but the baffle seems to work exceptionally well as the DC continued to provide excellent draw, similar to what I remember with a brand new filter, and even after several seeks of use and without cleaning the filter.

[Joel Earl]

:confused:
I still do not see how you actually mount/install/fasten the baffle inside the DC? I have made one - it fits inside well but I have a single clue how to fasten without cutting up the dc itself and running screws thru it or maybe riveting in something to make a hanger or ????

anyone help me out here?

[Phil Thien]

:confused:
I still do not see how you actually mount/install/fasten the baffle inside the DC? I have made one - it fits inside well but I have a single clue how to fasten without cutting up the dc itself and running screws thru it or maybe riveting in something to make a hanger or ????

anyone help me out here?

One of the most clever solutions I've seen is to use the holes through which the legs attach to the ring to run screws into the baffle.

[Rich Purdum]

On my HFDC, I was able to attach angle brackets to the support leg bolts and then attach stove bolts from the angle bracket down thru holes in the baffle (1/2" plywood). To mount the baffle, simply slide it up into the ring thru the holes and secure with nuts.

I also tried the "tab" (midway in the smaller diameter) to push the baffle large diameter firmly against the side of the ring. This worked very well.

With the baffle installed and the machine working, it's pretty neat to watch the chips spiral down the clear bag to the bottom and stay there.

[James White]

I hate to resurrect an old thread. But as many of you already know. It can be difficult to search the forum for specific information. I am looking for any successful implementation of the Thien separator internally on a delta 50-760 1-1/2hp DC. I saw mention that some Delta collectors have a ring that make it difficult to implement the separator.

James

[Bart Leetch]

Here is a bunch of Thien Separator stuff

http://www.bing.com/search?q=thien+separator+plans&qs=AS&sk=AS1&pq=thien%2520separator&sp=2&sc=5-15&form=QBLH

[Dave Wagner]

Just do a Google Image Search on delta 50-760 thien separator, a lot of pics of many different setups. It might not be easy to mount inside it, most just mount it over a garbage can with the separator.

[James White]

Thank's guys. I did the Google thing yesterday morning. Of coarse there are hundreds of posts to read that only lead to more questions. Though I have to admit I hadn't thought of using the images option.

The good news is that there is a forum for the Thien separator. I guess I will have to join. I really thought that there where more Creekers that have been through this already. Seems there are some issues with using the Thien separator with larger than 4" piping. I would like to keep mine at 5". That and I see that some that have done this have increases the width of the "drop slot". This is one of the things I was not sure on in regards to using the separator for larger CFM than shop vacs produce.

I was kind of hoping Phil would pop in here. I saw some post that he was going to be offering separators. I was curious if that ever got off the ground.

James

[Ryan Mooney]

The good news is that there is a forum for the Thien separator. I guess I will have to join. I really thought that there where more Creekers that have been through this already. Seems there are some issues with using the Thien separator with larger than 4" piping. I would like to keep mine at 5". That and I see that some that have done this have increases the width of the "drop slot". This is one of the things I was not sure on in regards to using the separator for larger CFM than shop vacs produce.

James

James, my personal experience is that a 5" inlet is generally fine for any reasonable size of separator. I believe that size of the inlet can matter depending on the diameter of the separator, bigger inlet == bigger separator. Mine at 18" inside diameter had some issues with a 6" inlet disrupting the swirl, but at 5" it was fine (actually it was "fine" at 6" as well until I opened up the slot wider to address other issues..).

The width of the drop slot is more relative to the size and type of shavings than the size of the inlet. I ended up with a 2" slot because - in worst case conditions - my planer generates gobs of rather long (6"+) tissue paper thin shavings and with the normal sized slot they gobbed up the works something awful. I would start with the narrower slot as recommended by Phil - narrower will separate better - and then widen it only if you have clogging problems.

[Jerome Hanby]

I'm going by Tractor Supply in the way home tonight to pick up a pulley. Their website shows metal trashcans. If they have them I'm picking up a couple for my dust collector/baffle mods!


Where can I get a metal trash can?? I know stupid question! I'm doing a google search and not getting very good results...

I suppose I could just peruse the local BORGS, but who likes doing that!??!?

[James White]

Ryan,

Thank you that is very useful information. Do you know the minimum diameter recommended for a 5" port? I have a 30 gal drum that has strait sides so the diameter may be on the small side. I will need to measure it.

Jerome,

I was thinking I would check those out myself. Could you let us know the diameter and the height of the 31gal size?

James

[Jerome Hanby]

Phil,

Got a quick question for you. I'm building the traditional type separator using your baffle like a top hat on a can in front of the impeller housing. Would I see any benefit (of detriments for that matter) is I also added a baffle like this behind the impeller? I wanted the one in front to help drop out bigger chunks before they hit my blades, but looks like adding one like this in the other side would be pretty easy...

[Curt Harms]

Phil,

Got a quick question for you. I'm building the traditional type separator using your baffle like a top hat on a can in front of the impeller housing. Would I see any benefit (of detriments for that matter) is I also added a baffle like this behind the impeller? I wanted the one in front to help drop out bigger chunks before they hit my blades, but looks like adding one like this in the other side would be pretty easy...

I have mine after the impeller. I've so far managed to keep big chunks out of the D.C. system. My D.C. plumbing wouldn't let me use a 'top hat' configuration but the baffle in the bottom of the funnel has worked out pretty well. I also added a 'chimney', roll of flashing formed into a tube that runs from about 2 1/2" - 3" above the baffle up into the Wynn filter. I just used cross dowel fasteners to hold the baffle in 2 spots and used a 1/2" PVC coupling cut to length with a bolt through it for the 3rd support point. 'Scuse the duct tape in the 3rd pic :p. That was a temporary 'let's see if this works' install. It seems to help. The baffle has worked very well and cost next to nothing besides time. I have 6" PVC 2729 pipe to the D.C. and no issues with it which seems to be an advantage over the plastic 'snap on the top of a garbage can' separators you buy. Those apparently don't work with 6" pipe - too much air, the can scrubs right out and into the bag.

[Phil Thien]

Phil,

Got a quick question for you. I'm building the traditional type separator using your baffle like a top hat on a can in front of the impeller housing. Would I see any benefit (of detriments for that matter) is I also added a baffle like this behind the impeller? I wanted the one in front to help drop out bigger chunks before they hit my blades, but looks like adding one like this in the other side would be pretty easy...

A few people run a separator on a branch in front of the big chip producers (jointer, planer), but also have a baffle in the ring of their DC on a second branch for the finer dust producer (saws, sanders).

Is that what you were planning on?

[Jerome Hanby]

A few people run a separator on a branch in front of the big chip producers (jointer, planer), but also have a baffle in the ring of their DC on a second branch for the finer dust producer (saws, sanders).

Is that what you were planning on?

Not really a plan, just thinking things through. I'm definitely going to have everything come through a front end separator. I was curious if also having the baffle in the ring (I guess that would be a back end separator) would add any benefit and/or would it introduce problems lie reduced airflow?

[Phil Thien]

Not really a plan, just thinking things through. I'm definitely going to have everything come through a front end separator. I was curious if also having the baffle in the ring (I guess that would be a back end separator) would add any benefit and/or would it introduce problems lie reduced airflow?

The old saying of "there is no free lunch" is true. Adding a baffle to the ring of the DC will reduce CFM a bit. So having the baffle in the ring, plus a separator, may reduce CFM more than you'd like at tools that generate more fine dust (bandsaw, sander, table saw even).

If you're going to do both, I'd probably configure the piping so only the jointer/planer/floor sweeps are in front of the separator, and everything else is direct to the DC.

[Ryan Mooney]

Ryan,
Thank you that is very useful information. Do you know the minimum diameter recommended for a 5" port? I have a 30 gal drum that has strait sides so the diameter may be on the small side. I will need to measure it.

James

I have no idea/way of figuring out what that would be other than my own very limited experience :confused: and I stopped experimenting when I got it to the "working" stage (loml was going on about making tools for tools vs making something useful - go figure :rolleyes:). I know what worked for me, but I'm a long way from being able to explain any of it :D

I'm currently using a 30g plastic drum which left me with a separator (interior) diameter of about 18" which I believe is smaller than your average metal can... so I think you'll probably be ok with a 5" inlet and a 30g drum (ignoring other variables). Mine actually worked pretty darn good at 6" for small dust and low volume shavings until I opened the slot to 2" for my new planers shavings, that (?somehow) messed up the flow dynamics and 5" worked better after that. Its possible that if I'd built a square inlet and added the bell mouth for the outlet (documented by - I believe retired2 on the cgallery board) it might still have worked at 6".. but... I had 5" pipe and it worked at that so.. heh..