Do I really want Lie Nielsen?

[John Schreiber]

I got a $75 gift certificate for Lie Nielsen for my birthday. I looked through the catalog and there's hardly anything available for that price. Of course I can add my own money, but I'm not sure if that's what I want.

I'm a Timex or maybe Seiko kind of guy. Lie Nielsen looks like Rolex to me.

I'd really like a low angle block plane, but the Lee Valley looks like a better deal for me without any compromise on quality? All my planes now are refurbished Stanleys. Am I crazy. If I had a Lie Nielsen, I'd be afraid to use it.

[Mike Cutler]

You could possibly use it to purchase some replacements irons for your current bench planes. This would allow you to back bevel one set for steeper pitch's, and experiment with York, or full pitch angles on exotics.

Do you need LN? Nah, of course not, but they really are nice planes and chisels. I promise that you'll use them if you buy them.

[Wilbur Pan]

With your gift certificate:

Lee Valley low angle block plane: $129
Lie-Nielsen low angle adjustable mouth block plane: $75 ($150 minus your gift certificate)

Looks like you save $54 by getting a Lie-Nielsen. ;)

[Walt Caza]

Hi John,
I have been happy with my pair of Veritas handplanes, and will continue
to buy more. There are two items in the LN catalog I kinda have my eye on.....

-nice dovetail handsaw
-small chisel plane to fettle glue out of corners

My homework shows both of these to be considered among the best available,
and among their lower priced offerings.
You would not have to kick in too much more out of pocket for either
of those beauties.
Good luck with your 'dilema',
Walt
:)

[Matt Meiser]

I have their low angle rabbet block plane and use it on almost every project. It works great for trimming tenons, adjusting rabbets, and anywhere I would have used a regular low angle block plane. I sold my other low angle block plane because I never used it anymore--so using Wilbur's logic you could come out in the $25 range if you have another LA block plane to sell.

[Mark Roderick]

I always say to buy at least one Lie-Nielsen to see what a plane can do. Sounds like this is your perfect opportunity.

But the Veritas planes are very nearly as good, so if you're somebody who gets pleasure out of (relative) bargains, I'd recommend doing that.

As in so many of these tool-buying decisions, you really can't go wrong.

[John Bush]

I am also a Timex kind of buyer and have been happy with hand-me-down almost vintage Stanleys. I am concerned that stepping too close to the abyss could threaten my budget. I have been using old scrapers for finishing quite a bit lately, and I have read here on SMC that the LN scrapers are the best around and may be priced within the gift certificate range.Be careful of your footing as you get closer to the abyss!!

[gary Zimmel]

You can't go wrong with a LN 60 1/2 or a 60 1/2R.

I also use mine for pretty much any project I do. And I love the logic about getting a LN for only $75.00. Let us know which way you go.

[Steven Wilson]

John, A Lie Nielsen works better than a Rolex and periodic servicing is much less (a Rolex service is $350 every 5 years or so). Get yourself the Lie Nielsen low angle, adjustable mouth, block plane. It's a fantastic plane that ends up being used on most projects.

[Larry Fox]

Could sell the gift certificate for something in the $70 range and then buy whatever you want. Who knows, you might be able to find someone who was going to make a LN purchase anyway and would give you full value for it.

Just a thought.

[fred woltersdorf]

john, i felt the same way until i put a ln plane in my hand and instantly knew i had to have one. i bought the 60-1/2 low angle adj block plane and it's just a joy to use. go for it you wont regret your decision.

[Benjamin Dahl]

another vote for the LN low angle adj block plane; feels great in my hand. no reason to be afraid to use it, just take care of it as you would your other planes and don't lend it to a neighbor who wants to clean up paint drippings. the rest of my planes are old stanleys and miller falls that I inherited from dad and uncle and they are great to use.

[Rich Schneider]

I have a number of Lie Nielsen planes and am very happy with each one..most of them I have acquired second hand, so I didn't have the "sticker shock" you are feeling. I would look at it as a chance to add something to your toolbox which may encourage you to try something you haven't attempted before or if you have, try to do it in a different way. I would also look at adding tools that may be unique to Lie Nielsen. In that case some of their inlay tools may be beneficial. If inlay isn't of interest then I would think you could get a lot of value from their 97 1/2 chisel plane. Another good option would be a pair of side rabbet planes (the 98 and 99 which are better versions of the Stanley 98/99). You could also get a set of their cabinet scrapers in a leather wallet (although I think there are better ones out there for less)...heck everyone needs a scraper...

[Pete Bradley]

Do I really want Lie Nielsen?

Of course you do. Now get out there and buy one.;)

On a serious note, I also recommend the adjustable mouth block. I own one and I use it all the time.

Pete

[Bill Jepson]

I have 2 Lie Nielson planes and use them on almost every project. The adj. mouth block plane is on the bench ready to go all the time. It is ALWAYS a pleasure to use a fine quality tool. Lee Valley also makes good stuff. I bought the Lie Nielsons as presents for my wife, ;) who is also a good woodworker. She LOVES them, and won't use anything else. (Yes we have stepped off the edge and are full committed to the abyss!) But it IS a really nice ride. We plan on a rabbit plane buy as well. NO we WON'T buy the screwdrivers...we won't, we won't, we won't!
Bill J

[Danny Thompson]

The LN 102 (Iron Low Angle Block Plane) is in that range--$75. It doesn't have an adjustable mouth, but I have heard several experienced woodworkers say they like its smaller size--i.e., it easier to control one-handed.

[David Gross]

I've owned the bronze low angle block plane (102) for a couple of years, and I use it almost every time I'm in the shop. It's a great tool for a variety of tasks. The iron version is only $75 according to the LN website. Check it out:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1221

[Doug Shepard]

Do I really want Lie Nielsen?


Absolutely not. Wanna sell a $75 used gift certificate for $35:D

There's always the DVDs, etc. that they have.

[Lawrence Smith]

If there is a future woodworking show that you will be attending and LN is exhibiting, they give a ten percent discount with free shipping when you order one of there planes at the show. With your $75 gift certificate, you could have their low angle block plane for sixty bucks. They also give the discount when you purchase at their store in Warren Maine. Sounds like a no brainer to me. Go for it.

my$.02

[Mike Henderson]

Both the LV and the LN low angle block planes are excellent. The only major difference (to me) is that the LV plane is a bit bigger (mostly wider). Because of that, I find that the LN plane fits my hand better.

But that's the only reason - technically both are excellent.

Mike

[Randy Klein]

Both the LV and the LN low angle block planes are excellent. The only major difference (to me) is that the LV plane is a bit bigger (mostly wider). Because of that, I find that the LN plane fits my hand better.

But that's the only reason - technically both are excellent.

Mike

I'll second that. I've had both and the LN fit better. Although I liked the mouth adjustment on the LV better.

[Richard Niemiec]

I wish I had this problem.....

seriously, though, one of the lower priced and very useful item is the hand countersink tool. I bought one and use it all the time, very handy...

[John Schreiber]

side rabbet planes (the 98 and 99
cabinet scrapers in a leather wallet
60-1/2 low angle adj block plane
LN 60 1/2 or a 60 1/2R
the LN scrapers
low angle rabbet block plane
dovetail handsaw
small chisel plane
replacements irons for your current bench planes
LN low angle adj block plane
97 1/2 chisel plane
adjustable mouth block
bronze low angle block plane (102)
the LN low angle block plane . . . fits my hand better
I've had both and the LN fit better
very useful item is the hand countersink tooHey little boy, want some candy?

I guess the opinion here is unanimous. If I was given a Lie Nielsen gift card, it was a sign that I gotta do the right thing and go top of the line at least once in my life.

The adjustable mouth block plane 60 1/2 is the most highly recommended above,

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/60_5_lg.jpg

and it is a thing of beauty.

I am also tempted by the 60 1/2R

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/60_5R_lg.jpg

because I could also use it on tenons and shoulders. But part of me says that it is a multi-purpose tool and that makes it a compromise tool, so it must not be as good and this is a time to get a tool which is just right.

Which way should I go?

[Colin Giersberg]

To me, Bridge City Toolworks is a Rolex. I would love to have some of their tools, but the price says no. Otherwise, I would be happy with Lie Nielson. I have a couple of their tools now, and I like them very much. Good quality for the money.

Regards, Colin

[Randy Klein]

But part of me says that it is a multi-purpose tool and that makes it a compromise tool, so it must not be as good and this is a time to get a tool which is just right.

Which way should I go?

I think you're right on that one. The rabbet block is nice, but only if you have an adjustable mouth block already.

[Thom Sturgill]

I bought the 102. Its $95 and the 102I (iron) is $75. Very happy with it and use it constantly. That said, I will buy a larger, adjustable mouth plane next.

[Steven Wilson]

Go with the 60 1/2. It's very well made, works extremely well, is comfortable to use, and can take a fair amount of abuse. It is the one plane everyone should have in their tool box.

[Michael Gibbons]

Yeah, it's true,$75 won't get you much with LN. But they do have some options other than tools. Books,videos, sharpening stuff, t-shirts:rolleyes:. If you can't use it, you know where to send it. I bought the LN LA block plane after I held it. It just fit my hand better than the Lee Valley. I think they have the straight handled dovetail saw for about that much. Still have to fork over for shipping though...

[tim rowledge]

I've been able to afford several LN planes and to be honest the pure pleasure of having and touching something so gorgeous is worth the fee. The bronze 4 1/2 smoother is just...... nice.

Everyone deserves something special occasionally. Perhaps this is a chance to enjoy one special thing for less outlay than normal.

[Greg Cole]

Yup, you do. Regardless of which shape it is or what its function is, you want it. Need it... no.... but you won't regret it unless you regret buying quality you can give to the next generation of WW'er. I have a couple LN's and my little dude will get them someday, if he wants them.
The slidedown that hill is enjoyable..... we'll give you a puch to get going... err already given I think.

Greg

[Wilbur Pan]

I am also tempted by the 60 1/2R because I could also use it on tenons and shoulders. But part of me says that it is a multi-purpose tool and that makes it a compromise tool, so it must not be as good and this is a time to get a tool which is just right.

No, the reason not to get a multi-purpose tool is that if you do, you lose the excuse you'll need to buy another tool later on.

Never embark on a train of thought that leads you to buying fewer tools. ;)

[Hank Knight]

Thom Sturgill's and Danny Thompson's suggestion is a good one. I've owned a bronze LN 102 for 6 or 7 years. It quickly became one of my favorite tools and my block plane of choice over several others in my shop. Last Fall I was in the LN store and succumbed to the charms of their adjustable low angle block plane (the 60 1/2). I bought and I like it very much. But the little bronze 102 is still my favorite. I reach for it even when the LN 60 1/2 is laying on the bench right beside it. The 102 will introduce you to LN quality without breaking your budget.
My $.02
Hank

[Eddie Darby]

It's a trap!!!!!
Once you buy a LN you will never be happy with anything else!

Quick find someone else to give the certificate to before it's too late!:eek:

Any takers?:confused:

[Mike Henderson]

Just a comment on using the LN 60 1/2R to trim tenons. You can do that, but the LV medium shoulder plane is soooo much better for that application, especially trimming shoulders. The "R" is just a bit too big to work well in that application.

Personally, I would not purchase a 60 1/2R to use as a regular block plane. Because the blade protudes out the side, you can scar up some wood without intending to. You can also scar up your hand if you're not careful. I have a 60 1/2R and tried to use it as a regular block plane. I soon bought the regular 60 1/2.

But if you are going to buy the 60 1/2R, have LN add the nickers to it. It'll make it easier to cut rabbets, especially cross grain. LN charged me $25 to add the nickers some time after I bought the plane (had to ship it back to them). It might be a bit less expensive if you get the nickers as part of the original purchase.

Mike

[added note] I want to second Hank Knight's suggestion of the bronze 102. I have one and it's a great plane - feels good in your hand and works well.

[Corvin Alstot]

To me, Bridge City Toolworks is a Rolex. I would love to have some of their tools, but the price says no. Otherwise, I would be happy with Lie Nielson. I have a couple of their tools now, and I like them very much. Good quality for the money.
There are a bunch of plane makers out there that make exquisite planes that make LN planes look like an old Stanley.

[Jason White]

I have the Lie Nielsen low-angle block plane. Paid the full $150.

Worth every penny, even if you're just using it to do general/trim carpentry projects. So much better than the crappy "Buck Bros." plane I got at Home Depot a few years ago. You really get what you pay for with their block planes.

Jason


I got a $75 gift certificate for Lie Nielsen for my birthday. I looked through the catalog and there's hardly anything available for that price. Of course I can add my own money, but I'm not sure if that's what I want.

I'm a Timex or maybe Seiko kind of guy. Lie Nielsen looks like Rolex to me.

I'd really like a low angle block plane, but the Lee Valley looks like a better deal for me without any compromise on quality? All my planes now are refurbished Stanleys. Am I crazy. If I had a Lie Nielsen, I'd be afraid to use it.

[Jason White]

WARNING!! Keep in mind that the rabbet block plane, though pretty, does NOT have an adjustable mouth. I found this out the hard way.

Jason


Hey little boy, want some candy?

I guess the opinion here is unanimous. If I was given a Lie Nielsen gift card, it was a sign that I gotta do the right thing and go top of the line at least once in my life.

The adjustable mouth block plane 60 1/2 is the most highly recommended above,

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/60_5_lg.jpg

and it is a thing of beauty.

I am also tempted by the 60 1/2R

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/images/60_5R_lg.jpg

because I could also use it on tenons and shoulders. But part of me says that it is a multi-purpose tool and that makes it a compromise tool, so it must not be as good and this is a time to get a tool which is just right.

Which way should I go?

[Michael Gibbons]

There are a bunch of plane makers out there that make exquisite planes that make LN planes look like an old Stanley. Probably true, but at what cost? Are they second mortage material?

[Jim Becker]

You need to feel the L-N low-angle block plane in your hand...and you'll never want to let go! I glad I bought mine. The Veritas planes are also very nice and I assure you that I have some of those on my list. But no regrets here for my first "good" plane being from L-N!

[Michael Pfau]

John, I have several Lie Nelson's..and love everyone of them. I look forward to using them. The block plane was my first. I am working on a long term collection of them. I I would get the Lie, and never look back!! A good plane collection is priceless in my mind.

[Mike Heidrick]

Anyone ever bought them from the craftsmanstudio dot com? Pric is $135 for the LN 60.5.

[Mike Henderson]

Anyone ever bought them from the craftsmanstudio dot com? Pric is $135 for the LN 60.5.
I've bought from them - no problems, good people - recommended.

Mike

[Corvin Alstot]

Probably true, but at what cost? Are they second mortage material?
Look at $100/inch of length. A 9" long smoother may start a $900 and climb from there. Look at Karl Holtey, Darryl Hutchinson and Wayne Anderson for some amazing works of art that also cut wood very smooth ( . . . some day when my ship comes in . . . )

[Wayne Cannon]

The Stanley block plane with the adjustable mouth will serve you almost as well as the LN. Just make sure you spend the time to flatten the sole of the plane, the back of the blade, and sharpen the bevel. Flattening and sharpening are far more important than the difference between the good Stanley and the LN.

The LN smoothing planes, jointers, etc., really are sweet, and you will never regret getting any LN product. There is a noticeable difference in quality -- not just a jyped vanity brand. To begin with, LNs arrive almost perfectly flat and sharp (they still should be flattened and sharpened), so there is MUCH less effort getting it ready. They're usable right out of the box. This applies to their block planes, too. As a minimum, there is a definite trade off of your effort versus the cost of the LN.

[Marcus Ward]

Ridiculous, buy replacement irons for stanleys. Seriously, the wood doesn't care what label is on the plane. Spend your money on stanleys, buy replacement blades if you absolutely can't stand the thought of having a blade that isn't ... whatever (hint - the vintage stanleys work fine if you know how to sharpen) and the money you would have spent on a LN - invest it. If I had a 75$ gift certificate to LN I'd buy a honing guide and some stones.

[Mike Cutler]

There are a bunch of plane makers out there that make exquisite planes that make LN planes look like an old Stanley.

That's because they are. Copies of old Stanley's that is.:D,:rolleyes:. Sorry, someone had to say it.

That's a beautiful plane in that pic Corvin. Very nice indeed.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Treat yourself to a bronze LN 102 block plane. You'll have to add a couple of bucks ($25 or so), but you'll have something that will be by your side for the rest of your woodworking days.


T.Z.

[Ken Werner]

I too am a Timex guy. I imagine it works as well as a Rolex [never have seen or held a Rolex]. A LN plane works better than a Stanley. There is a difference that is much more than brand appeal. You'll discover this as soon as you use one.

Somebody thought well enough of you to give you this generous gift. Use it to purchase a really sweet tool. An iron 102 is really close to your gift size, and is a wonderful tool. It may however lead you down the sloooooooope.

BTW, if someone gave me a Rolex [hah, like that's gonna happen] I'd sell it and buy tools.

[Mike Gabbay]

Personally I would skimp on power tools before I skimp on hand tools. Once you buy an LN tool you'll see and feel the difference. I consider my hand tools something that will be in my will for my two sons. I try to treat myself with one or two LN tools per year.

Use the $75 gift certificate to treat yourself to something nice. the 60 1/2R or a low angle jack are very nice choices. I use mine for every project.

They are adictive! Woodworkers crack! :D

[John Schreiber]

Friends,

I just pulled the trigger on a Low Angle Adjustable Mouth Block Plane #60 1/2.

I'm so excited, I don't know what to think. I can't wait to make shavings.

[Steven Wilson]

Good for you John, you'll enjoy that plane.

[Hunter Wallace]

That is the PERFECT plane to get started with!

[Corvin Alstot]

That's because they are. Copies of old Stanley's that is.:D,:rolleyes:. Sorry, someone had to say it.That's a beautiful plane in that pic Corvin. Very nice indeed.
They are copies, but a lot better in performance. The thicker blades and better quality control add for a much better copy.:D

[Frederick Rowe]

Marcus - I've got to disagree. Do you own a LN? I've been tuning up old Stanley's for years, and own an equal number of LN planes. There are substantive differences in materials, tolerances, and in some areas improvements such as chip breaker, blade and body thickness, etc . . . Can a well tuned Stanley match a LN on the same board, yes. But, and this is only my experience, the LN hold their settings and sharpness longer, are easier to adjust (frog and lateral adjusters are much smoother) and can be bought new. Too many woodworkers new to hand tools run into problems setting up an older Stanley, and don't have a benchmark to gauge what a proper bench plane should feel like. On a budget, I wouldn't hesitate to enthusiastically recommend a beginner buy an old tuned Stanley from a reputable dealer.

I love old tools. The value, the quality, the history. John's got a gift certificate, let him have some fun. It's the fun of woodworking, not ridiculous. And think of this. Today's LNs are tomorrow's old Stanleys.

[Marcus Ward]

I do not own a LN, I have used a few and am impressed with the fit and finish. I do not think they are worth the current amount of hype that floats around this particular section of sawmill creek and want to tell new guys to avoid the expensive stuff because it's not necessary. The finished piece doesn't care what got used on it. It seems lately the ridiculous brand-hype that pervades the "I judge you by your machine labels" section of Sawmill Creek (General) has invaded this section and it makes me ill. I'm trying to be the contrary voice to the hordes of people who push the expensive tools. That's all.

[Keith Beck]

I'm no hand tool expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I finally got a chance last night to put the LN #4 plane my wife bought for my birthday through it's paces and I have to say I am extremely impressed. Here's a glimpse of what it produced:

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j114/ldoforcno/DSC03218.jpg

This is with the factory edge. I haven't even honed it. Man, it was pure joy to use. I had a smile on my face the entire time. I think all of my future plane purchases will be LN.

Keith

[Marcus Ward]

I have an awesome boat, want to see a picture of the wake it produces? :\

(Not intended as a jab at you personally, Keith, just at the idea that a lot of people focus on the side effects, not the result, around here.)

[Frederick Rowe]

Marcus,

I don't know what touched a nerve, but the only person on this thread who is talking about brand hype and sanctimonious judgment is you. Am I missing something in this thread? I know what you mean about the General Woodworking side fawning over a $1000 Festool whatever, but don't let it make you ill. To each his own. Even in the most heated threads I can't remember anyone saying "You are beneath me because you use a Craftsman tablesaw."

As for Keith's picture and post, don't you remember the satisfaction of flattening a board with a bench plane for the first time? Pulling a long, clean, uninterrupted shaving? As for "focusing on side effects, not the result" you've missed the point. He's mastering the technique. The Chippendale highboy will come later.

You're among friends. No one is challenging you, your choice, or anything else. I've read many of your threads as you share your knowledge and experience freely. This seems out of character for you.

Peace.

[Marcus Ward]

Hmmm perhaps you're right. The thing I'm reacting to isn't this thread, it's a bunch of diverse situations where someone is pushing the bling tools for no reason than they're blingy. Hell yeah I'd love to own all LNs, they're great. Part of this is a reaction to our culture of buying on credit things we don't need, and not knowing anyone's financial situation I can't say they're doing that or not, but if they're Americans, statistically, most of the people here are buying these tools on credit, which is dumb. There is no way to justify it, don't even try. Part of it is more than once having my intelligence questioned because I don't think a LN is 10x better than a tuned vintage stanley. Yes, it has happened. I even had one fruit look up my wish list on lee valley so he could see I wanted some newer planes to try to poke holes in my arguments. Kind of creepy.

Yeah, he's learning technique, and it was poor of me to pick this spot to spout off. I want everyone to enjoy using hand tools and woodworking and most of all making things out of wood. The tools are just the means to the end, which is something you've built with your hands and sweat and love. I try to steer (sometimes shove) to make sure people realize that.

All that, and I wrote that in the morning before I had my first cup of coffee, and my wife doesn't even talk to me then so you can get some idea of my mental state. I apologize.

[Keith Beck]

Marcus,

My feelings were a bit hurt by your original post, but I'm over it... :)

I was by no means sayings that you have to have a LN (or any other expensive plane) to produce nice shavings. As evidenced by another post on this forum, I have planes other than LN. In fact, I have a no-name #4 I got off of eBay (I think for the whopping sum of $25) that'll make some nice shavings, but it took quite a bit of work to get it to that point. I was just very impressed that the LN was ready to go right out of the box. And boy does it feel good in my hands!

Oh, and Fred, thanks for the support. But, I think you and I will both very old men before I gather enough skill to tackle a Chippendale Highboy! :D

Keith

[Michael Faurot]

The thing I'm reacting to isn't this thread, it's a bunch of diverse situations where someone is pushing the bling tools for no reason than they're blingy.
....
Part of it is more than once having my intelligence questioned because I don't think a LN is 10x better than a tuned vintage stanley.


I know how you feel. I've been in a similar contrary position and had my intelligence called into question because I dared think that the less expensive planes are actually usable.

I've got a diverse collection of planes from Groz, Anant, Veritas/Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen, Stanley, Craftsman, and a quite a few wooden planes I've made myself. I'm able to do something useful with all of them. I'm not saying they all work equally well. In fact I really hate the Anant plow plane I've got. :) I really love the ones I've made myself and those made by Lie-Nielsen and Veritas.

Lately, when someone asks me, "I'm interested in using hand planes, what should I start with?" I try and find out what sort of person they are, or have them ask themselves. If they've got plenty of disposable income and are looking for quick results--I will recommend they look into either Lie-Nielsen or Veritas and have a ball. Most of the time though, the person asking has a fixed/small budget, so it gets more complicated. This is where I try and find out how interested they really are. If the person has the personality to keep at it and not give up, then I'll suggest they look into a less expensive option like Groz and if they like that, then go look for some of the vintage stuff at flea markets, antique stores, or try their hand at making their own in the Krenov style. For the folks that have a small budget and no patience, I'll either suggest they probably won't like using hand planes or to save some money and then get something from Veritas.

I also suspect, when the more experienced out there are answering the question about what to get, and immediately suggest Lie-Nielsen or Veritas it's because they've come to appreciate how well these tools work and the fact they're pretty much ready to go out of the box, thus eliminating all the work and potential frustration that comes with fettling a vintage plane or the plane kits that come from Stanley, Groz, Anant, etc. It may also be a case of ennui that comes from having answered that question a number of times before, so the easy answer is to just suggest the very best.

So, to me, what to suggest a novice start with depends on who's asking and how much time and money they have to put into learning.

[Lee Koepke]

Thanks for that post Micheal. and Marcus, your posts were really informative for me as well.

You guys have given me the perspective I was looking for, and all I had to do was be quiet, and pay attention!

I am taking a class to teach me some techniques in sharpening this coming Monday. That is my first step. From there, I will move on to what plane I would feel good with.

[Michael Faurot]

I am taking a class to teach me some techniques in sharpening this coming Monday. That is my first step. From there, I will move on to what plane I would feel good with.

That sounds like a good start. Hopefully your class will cover, or at least touch on, several different methods.

Try as many types/styles as your budget and time allow for. Use the ones that you like the most, allow you to quickly sharpen things and then get back to woodworking.

[Marcus Ward]

I will put my money where my mouth is. Anyone who feels like driving to my house, I will show everything I know about making planes work (probably take about 3 minutes hah!) and I'll provide the beer (if I've brewed any lately). If you've got a grotty old antique, come and sit while it soaks in the citric and we clean it up. I have no agenda other than to push you guys down the slope. :)

[Mike Gabbay]

Not to jump on anyone's case.... I respect all that is said and the posts do have a lot of merit.

I agree that you should not buy the bling tool for the sake of owning a bling tool. However, I think what it boils down to is how much time do you really want to spend tuning.

Personally I started with older Stanleys that were working tools. All were in good shape and could do the job. When I wanted to invest in other tools that were not as easy to find on the market or required a lot of work to refurbish I opted for the LNs. They are expensive but relative to the amount of time and money you need to invest in an older plane it's not that much more money. I look at it as opportunity cost. Would I rather tune up an older Stanley or woodwork? I'd rather do woodworking.

I do think beginners get turned off with hand tools because they are not tuned properly. So as a new hand tool user, maybe its not such a bad thing to invest in a $150 plane to see what a well tuned tool can do. That will peak their interest and remove the "mystic" of hand tools. As they become more experienced then they have enough knowledge to make an educated choice of tuning it themselves or paying for new well tuned plane.

Recently I just replaced my #7 Stanley with a new LN. Again it was a choice of investing time and money to refurbish or get a tool that was in great working condition out of the box. All I can say is I love the way the new #7 cuts (not because its new and an LN). Much better than the older Stanley. But the LN is well tuned, has a nicer iron and chipbreaker and I can now adjust the mouth (something my older Stanley did not have). And yes I do keep my irons very sharp.

My 2 cents....

[Marcus Ward]

Looks like you are willing to pay more for the convenience of not having to tune up a plane. I personally don't find that the hour or so I spend tuning up a plane is worth the 10 fold increase in cost associated with buying one of those but that's me. It's nice we all have options.

[Michael Faurot]

However, I think what it boils down to is how much time do you really want to spend tuning.


That, plus money and tenacity. For those with a similar disposition to my own--cheap but with the tenacity of a terrier that has a pant leg in its mouth--one can learn and do useful things with the less expensive planes out there.

As I've gained more experience and have a bit of extra money, I really do appreciate how well the planes made by Lie-Nielsen and Veritas work.


I look at it as opportunity cost. Would I rather tune up an older Stanley or woodwork? I'd rather do woodworking.That's an excellent point. Likewise, I would rather do woodwork than fettle a plane. When I first started though, I had more time and tenacity than I did money.


I do think beginners get turned off with hand tools because they are not tuned properly. So as a new hand tool user, maybe its not such a bad thing to invest in a $150 plane to see what a well tuned tool can do. That will peak their interest and remove the "mystic" of hand tools. As they become more experienced then they have enough knowledge to make an educated choice of tuning it themselves or paying for new well tuned plane.That's why I think it's important for the novice and/or the person answering the question to figure out how much do they really want to do this. I remember a moment, not so long ago, when I was at a Woodcraft store browsing all the various tools and trying to figure out what I should get so I could do some jointing. I knew I could do it with a hand plane or a machine but I wasn't sure which way I wanted to go. I didn't own any planes at all, at this point in time, but I was very intrigued by them. So I took a look at the #7 Lie-Nielsen there and was immediately hit with sticker shock. I thought to myself, "Why would I want to spend $400 for a single plane, when I could get a machine that will do the job for less?" As you might guess, I went with a machine that did in fact cost less. But if there had been a less expensive #7 plane there like a Stanley, I probably would have started down the slippery slope a lot sooner.




Recently I just replaced my #7 Stanley with a new LN. Again it was a choice of investing time and money to refurbish or get a tool that was in great working condition out of the box. All I can say is I love the way the new #7 cuts (not because its new and an LN). Much better than the older Stanley. But the LN is well tuned, has a nicer iron and chipbreaker and I can now adjust the mouth (something my older Stanley did not have). And yes I do keep my irons very sharp.These days, I'm basically of the same mind. I'm looking more at higher quality stuff, as my finances permit and replacing some of the less expensive things I got when I first started learning. But where there's a gap in my collection, I'd still consider a vintage plane that needs a little fettling if the price was right. For example, I still don't own a #7, but I really want that #7 Lie-Nielsen now. However, if you want to get rid of that #7 Stanley, I might be interested in buying it from you, and I'd give it a good home! :)

[Don C Peterson]

Marcus, I understand what you're saying. The vintage planes can be great, and some of them can be had for much less than a new LN or LV, but as someone who owns several LN planes as well as a couple old Stanleys (and some old woodies) it's kind of hard not to take exception to calling LN's "Bling tools". That term strongly implies that the purchase decision was based on style or vanity.

There are perfectly valid reasons why people buy new LN or LV tools. It isn't all just vanity...although I'll be the first to admit that there is some pride of ownership involved.

I like the idea of supporting a company like LN that takes pride in making fine tools and stands behind them, in turn they (and others) play a big part in keeping the knowledge and enthusiasm for hand tools alive.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that we have some sort of duty to buy the new stuff... I personally find that despite the extra cost, LN provides a pretty good VALUE, all things considered. Your considerations are obviously different. That's the beauty of the free market. People should be free to pursue their own ends (within limits) with no interference or judgement from others.

Who get's hurt if I buy, or convince someone else to buy a LN? There's no moral question here, just individuals weighing their priorities and hopefully making choices that make sense to them.

[Thomas Knighton]

Another newbie chiming in here, but here's my thoughts. Woodworking is expensive. No matter how you cut it, you're going to pay a fair amount of money somewhere. However, why should I drop $300 just for one plane, when for that same amount, I can have a half dozen different planes, plus spokeshaves, brace, egg beater drill, a few saws, and a few other goodies?

It's like my wife said to me when I started getting the older tools, at the very worst, I have some cool antique tools to show off. Somehow, I doubt she'd be so supportive of all that money being dropped on just one tool.

Now, is a "to each, their own" sort of thing? Sure. However, I figure folks should look at all the angles.

A vintage tool costs a great deal less, but requires some work to make it function properly. A new tool works great right out of the box, but you pay for that convenience. Personally, if I had an aversion to working on something, I'd have taken up video games as a hobby ;)

Just my $.02, so take it for what it's worth.

Tom

[Marcus Ward]

Marcus, I understand what you're saying. The vintage planes can be great, and some of them can be had for much less than a new LN or LV, but as someone who owns several LN planes as well as a couple old Stanleys (and some old woodies) it's kind of hard not to take exception to calling LN's "Bling tools". That term strongly implies that the purchase decision was based on style or vanity.

You don't think there are hordes of guys who own these who don't really do any woodworking? I bet there are. Any boutique item like that attracts people who love the idea of something but don't actually use it. Look at the boutique amplifier market.


I like the idea of supporting a company like LN that takes pride in making fine tools and stands behind them, in turn they (and others) play a big part in keeping the knowledge and enthusiasm for hand tools alive.

I do too. I think it's great they make these tools. There is a tradition here that needs to be kept alive and they're doing great stuff.


Who get's hurt if I buy, or convince someone else to buy a LN? There's no moral question here, just individuals weighing their priorities and hopefully making choices that make sense to them.

The problem is if you look through the last 10 "I want a plane" posts there are hordes of people who say buy LN or LV and nobody pushing the vintage iron, which is just as good, and far far cheaper. For a guy new to hand tools the cost of entry on the high end tools is outrageous. I suppose I feel I've got a duty to the casual browser, anyone who finds these threads from a search engine, people who read this in a few years, and anyone else who doesn't have the finances or guts to plunk down 3 bills for a plane when they're not sure they're a hand tool guy to present the other side, the cheap seats as it were. Is the baseball game any less interesting from the bleachers than from the skybox? Nope. It's just more comfortable up there. It's still a lot of fun down in the bleachers. Sometimes my responses aren't necessarily for the original poster but for those watching in the wings and those who will come after.

[Phillip Pattee]

No you don’t want an LN, or a LV, plane. You want something much nicer. I saw that our own Derek Cohen did a review on this Philip Marcou plane; Chris Schwartz did a review on one as well. http://www.marcouplanes.com/reviews/S15BU-review/index.asp (http://www.marcouplanes.com/reviews/S15BU-review/index.asp) They have high praise for the quality of the tool. This plane is based on the Lee Valley Veritas design, but has some nice improvements. Is it worth 10x the price of a LV? Sure is! You’ll love the feel of it in your hand. It is so well made you can pass it on to your children and grandchildren. I’m not saying this to mock anybody that has posted—this is testimony from people who use the plane.
"... It is a plane to visit, take down and make a few gossamer shavings before retiring for the night. It is a plane about which to say to the progeny “someday this will be yours”. It is a plane which, when acquired, will demonstrate once again that men are as romantic as women, and for that reason alone it was a bargain."


Peter Byrne
The people who are willing to lay out over 2 grand of their money for a nice plane use the same reasoning to justify the purchase as those who buy a LN or a LV. I can imagine someone who bought the LN defending his purchase of a low-end user to someone who owns a plane as nice as the Marcou. What would you say? And would you sound like Marcus when you said it? Each of us has to pick our own poison, so to speak. If you want it and can afford it, go for it! On the other hand, if Marcus and I decide that we can fettle an old Stanley and it works well, then that is an option too. Obviously the old Stanley planes are made well enough to hand down to future generations—that is why they are still here for us to use. Your grandchildren will have to fettle granddad’s old LN. If they decide it just isn’t worth their time to tune up, then maybe my grandson can buy it in an online auction for under $50!:D

[Bill Borchardt]

Congratulations John!

Let the person who gave you the gift certificate know that you decided on the Lie Nielsen 60 1/2 adjustable mouth block plan. Once you get it and use it tell that generous person how wonderful the plane is. (Give back the joy!)

The first "good" plane I bought several years back was the same one you just picked - it's a quality tool that I use all the time. Worth the high cost.

I now have 10 planes: 3 Lie Nielsen, 5 Veritas (Lee Valley), a Stanley, and a Record. The Lie Nielsen and Veritas are more expensive but they are quality tools that work well out of the box (still do minor honing). I have found that you can save some $$ if you can find Veritas planes used (3 of mine were "used"). Used Lie Nielsen tools sell for 85% - 90% of the cost of new.

Cheers . . . . .

Billbo

[Wilbur Pan]

I do not own a LN, I have used a few and am impressed with the fit and finish. I do not think they are worth the current amount of hype that floats around this particular section of sawmill creek and want to tell new guys to avoid the expensive stuff because it's not necessary.

You have sound advice, except that to go the vintage Stanley route assumes that the person asking for advice:

1. Has some idea of what a well tuned plane can do
2. Knows how to set up and tune up a used plane, and
3. Knows what fatal flaws to avoid when purchasing a used plane.

My guess is that in almost every case, the person asking "What should I get for my first plane?" doesn't fit any of the above three items. That's why my usual answer to "What's the first plane I should get?" is "Take a class on using hand planes and sharpening, or find a local woodworking club and look for the hand tool guy." This is the sort of thing that I've found makes a much larger impact in person than on the internet.

For those people who don't have access to either classes or a hand tool maven, a Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley plane may be the only hope they have of seeing what a well tuned plane can do.

My first woodworking purchase was a class. Since then, I've only bought used planes. But I also know I needed that hands on instruction experience, or I would have been lost.

If you really want to have people thinking about vintage/used planes, you might want to take this into consideration.

[Thomas Knighton]

Just the thoughts of a newbie here, but how does buying a $300 plane that works great right out of the box help me fiddle with vintage planes? Sure, I would know what a well tuned plane can do. Honestly, all I currently have to go on is what shavings should look like and that it shouldn't jump around while I'm trying to plane with it.

I just can't see a plane that is pretty well tuned right out of the box teaching anyone how to tune up an old vintage plane. After all, it's ready to go right out of the box! You take it out of the box, and go to work...and it will work fine. Sure, now I know what a good plane should feel like, but if one knows how things should work, they can figure it out for themselves. Less than ideal, sure, but another avenue for a new woodworker, or new hand tool user, to consider.

However, in messing with these older planes, I feel I'm getting an education in hand planes. There is no local woodworking club here. I haven't even found another woodworker less than an hour and a half drive from my house, much less a hand tool guy. Haven't found any nearby classes either, though I could plan on spending a weekend three hours north of my family, but then the class becomes even more costly. An option, sure, but not a lot of opportunities around my parts for some odd reason.

Honestly, if I had no other option besides a $300 plane, I might have gotten frustrated about hand tools. Especially when a $300 plane is far from the last plane purchase you will need to make.

I have darn near all the minimum planes I'll need to tackle almost any project for far, far less than $300. So far, my 95 year old low angle adjustable block plane makes nice, pretty shavings. Paper thing? Nah, but that's OK. There's zero tear out, and that's "right out of the box" with just enough adjustment to get the blade to come out of the mouth...no sharpening just yet. Also, my 50 year old #5 does about the same quality shavings.

However, I will admit that it's possible to get better results than I'm getting out of these two planes (only one of which have I don't anything with), but I'm pretty happy with the results ;)

[Marcus Ward]

Given the mountain of advice online I don't think it'd be a total mess. If someone is smart enough to come ask about which plane to get they're probably smart enough to google vintage planes and find Leach's site, this one, and a few others, they'll be fine. Anyone doing woodworking is probably handy enough to figure it out from online material. You guys who push this "they should own a 300$ plane so they know how they work" always ignore the fact that there is a ton of advice available.



You have sound advice, except that to go the vintage Stanley route assumes that the person asking for advice:

1. Has some idea of what a well tuned plane can do
2. Knows how to set up and tune up a used plane, and
3. Knows what fatal flaws to avoid when purchasing a used plane.

My guess is that in almost every case, the person asking "What should I get for my first plane?" doesn't fit any of the above three items.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Before you have success with any plane (or tool for that matter), you must have the basic skill in knowing how to use that tool. It doesn't matter if it is a LN, LV, Marcou, or a Groz or Anant. The name does not guarantee success and in fact my frustrate you because you have spent mega bucks and you still can't do what you think you should be able to.

If you are fortunate enough to be near some Galoots that will show you the way, great! If not, you may have to resort to reading and trial and error.

FWIW, I have a full complement of LN, vintage Stanley, some LV, a couple of dozen transitionals, probably 50 or 60 woodies and each is different from the next. The common thread is "Ya gotta figure out how to hold your tongue before any work".

T.Z.

[Richard Niemiec]

Wow, what a thread and its still got legs.

Anyway, each of us comes to our opinions as a reflection of our experience. As I noted above, mine came from a number of years gaining knowledge (principally from the web) and experience taking flea market finds and tuning them for optimal performance. Someone smarter than me once maintained that the older Stanleys, adjusted for inflation, basically cost a workman a weeks pay, or sometimes more, so in that context the cost of a LN or LV plane is not exhorbitant in perspective, and frankly a type 17 or earlier does not require all that much fettling to the "innards" e.g., frog bed, but really just need cleaning up and truing the sole to produce good work, once, of course, you have learned to sharpen the iron. So in my experience, learning these skills, principally the skill of sharpening (which you're gonna have to do with any plane) allows me to fully understand how planes work, and appreciate in a more satisfying manner the performance of a LV or LN, and I do own several of both along with Stanleys, Sargents, Records and Craftsman.

Perhaps my path was dictated by my financial resources when I started down the slope, but it was a valuable trip nonetheless, and for those so inclined, I recommend it. RN

[Don C Peterson]

You don't think there are hordes of guys who own these who don't really do any woodworking? I bet there are. Any boutique item like that attracts people who love the idea of something but don't actually use it. Look at the boutique amplifier market.

Sure there are some, I don't know about "hordes" but there are at least some. I'm sure there are some people who buy the vintage planes and use them for decorations, but that has no bearing on whether those tools represent a value to someone else.


The problem is if you look through the last 10 "I want a plane" posts there are hordes of people who say buy LN or LV and nobody pushing the vintage iron, which is just as good, and far far cheaper. For a guy new to hand tools the cost of entry on the high end tools is outrageous.

I don't know about that, the responses seem about equally divided. The difference is that nobody is saying anything that would imply that buying the older tools is "outrageous" or just for show, or foolish... I don't have any problem with you or anyone else recommending the vintage tools (I don't have a horse is that race), but I think you could at least tone down the rhetoric and acknowledge that there are valid reasons why someone might find the new planes to be a good choice.

I obviously had a different experience than you when buying my first plane. When I saw the "outrageous" price of the LN's I went with the inexpensive route and it almost turned me off of hand tools altogether. I finally ponied up for the LN #4 and it literally opened up a whole world of hand tools for me. I then went back after getting some experience with a well tuned plane and rehabbed that old cheapie into a good user, after I had given it up for dead; I count that $250 LN a bargain...

Nobody is arguing that unless someone buys a LN or LV plane they are somehow deficient in their reasoning. I'm just providing my viewpoint that those tools, despite their cost, represent a good value based on my priorities. If you share those priorities, fine, if not, that's fine too.

Either way--and this is the important thing--it's good that those new to hand tools hear both perspectives and can then decide for themselves without feeling like someone is passing judgement on them. So, share your experience and views, just please, tone down the rhetoric a bit.

BTW John, I'm sure you'll enjoy that plane!

[Greg Cole]

My experience is much that same as Don's. My first 2 planes were Borg "specials", Buck Bros circa 1999. I tried in vain for awhile with the bench n block plane... wound up on a shelf in the shop (still there too). I hated hand planes based off those 2 pieces of umm.... metal.
Fast forward a couple years, I'm parked at the bench with random orbit sander for a FULL WEEKEND on a project progressing through the grits.... I think to myself there has to be a better way. A couple of trips to the library and numerous books later.. I decided to step on the slope. As a newbie I didn't ever even consider refurbing an old one, I chose to spend some money, my hard earned money on something as a treat & a true acid test to see if I wanted to pursue this avenue (I had $ set aside for buying a drum sander at that time). One LN #4 was my first plane purchase and it was some of the best $ I've ever spent, cause it hooked me.. not too mention an awful lot cheaper than the 25" drum I had in the crosshairs.
I haven't bought any older neander tools, but I'm open to it now as I've got a comfort level with them. A couple years ago the only reason I'd have spent a penny on a vintage tool would be for a decoration in the shop (to go along with the Buck Bros junkers).
I'm not into buying anything for the bling of having it, it's a tool (a German Engineer once told me I am the most practical person he knows, was that a compliment or insult? :rolleyes:). It's my money & if my wife cares less how I spend it can't imagine why anyone else would. I chose not to spend $ on alot of other things in the world to be able to spend it on others of my choice....:D Nobody made me & I'd do it again without even blinking.
The cost of entry to any WW'ing related hobby is a barrier to entry for some and for others it's not regardless of power, neander, spinny things.... nevermind all the aforementioned in one shop.:eek:
Honestly, I don't care which route anyone takes be it brand name new planes or vintage.... just so long as they can tune & use them.

A bit more than my $0.02. And I'l shuddap now....

Greg

[Doug Shepard]

I'm for ponying up for the LN or LV's for a slightly different reason. Yeah, I had some of the same experiences with the new but rehab-ready planes and didn't try using planes again for years. Once I bought my first good plane (a LN LA Jack) it was like a light bulb went off - AHA - that's how they're supposed to work. Since then I've sucessfully tuned up a couple old Millers Falls family hand-me-downs and tweaked a few Korean and Indian planes to the point they all work very well (but still not as nicely as a LN or LV). But now when contemplating another plane, it's often a question of do I want to spend more time rehabbing an old plane first before I can do any woodworking with it, or just pay the money, get something I know will work out of the box, and get to work on some wood? I struggle to find enough time in the shop to get things done that I want to do and my To-Do list never seems to shrink, only get bigger. The last thing I want to do is add a plane rehab onto the list. Maybe if I were retired and had more time available, I could start taking on more of those kind of things, but at the moment I have less time than I have money.

Just my 2 centavos.

[Marcus Ward]

I wasn't implying that anyone here buys those tools for any reason other than to put a good finish on their projects, I was merely saying that they do get purchased for other reasons by OTHER people (nobody here). I like all you guys, I wouldn't want you guys to think otherwise, or think I was judging anyone here that way, I hope I don't come off that way. I'm just trying to be the other side of the argument. I will be at the KC woodworking show this weekend either sat or sun if anyone wants to come yell at me for being a bastard. :)

[Don C Peterson]

I'll be there too, and I want to meet you, not to yell or argue, but because I have found many of your posts helpful and interesting.

See you at LePeep (or however it's spelled)...

[Keith Beck]

I'm sure there are some people who buy the vintage planes and use them for decorations, but that has no bearing on whether those tools represent a value to someone else.


Don,

Good point. My brother, who is also a woodworker, but not a hand tool guy, has a complete collection of vintage Stanley bench planes (minus a #1), that he's never used. He just likes having them on display. I, for one, would rather spend my money on a LN that I absolutely love and have no qualms using every day.

I'm not saying LN planes are a must have; in fact, I have several Stanley planes myself, but I just enjoy the workmanship that goes into the LNs. To me, they're kind of a mix between a tool and a piece of art.

Keith

[Michael Faurot]

Just the thoughts of a newbie here, but how does buying a $300 plane that works great right out of the box help me fiddle with vintage planes? Sure, I would know what a well tuned plane can do. Honestly, all I currently have to go on is what shavings should look like and that it shouldn't jump around while I'm trying to plane with it.


A brand new quality plane won't help someone tune up a vintage plane. The argument that a novice should buy a good quality new plane is that the novice won't have to learn how to tune up the plane first and can instead just concentrate on learning how to use it.

[Don C Peterson]

A brand new quality plane won't help someone tune up a vintage plane. The argument that a novice should buy a good quality new plane is that the novice won't have to learn how to tune up the plane first and can instead just concentrate on learning how to use it.

Really? It did for me, the LN didn't teach me HOW to tune up a vintage plane, but it did show me what a well tuned plane felt and looked like, which I in turn applied to the vintage plane.

[Michael Faurot]

Really? It did for me, the LN didn't teach me HOW to tune up a vintage plane, but it did show me what a well tuned plane felt and looked like, which I in turn applied to the vintage plane.

True, good point. A quality new plane can provide a useful reference point when comparing the performance to a similar style vintage plane.

[Thomas Knighton]

A brand new quality plane won't help someone tune up a vintage plane. The argument that a novice should buy a good quality new plane is that the novice won't have to learn how to tune up the plane first and can instead just concentrate on learning how to use it.

But the argument I've heard more than once is to get a high end new plane, then you'll be able to tune up a vintage plane. No one said "Then you can just focus on how to use it". Instead, it was that one should get a new one, and that will somehow show you the way to tuning vintage ones. Well, a $300 plane was a bit more than my wife was willing to let me slide on for a single tool, so I went vintage.

I understand the argument that they'll show you what a plane should do, but I don't think that's the only way to do that either. So far, the only plane of mine I've fiddled with works great. A far cry from the frustration I've heard from others, though maybe I'm just lucky.

Tom

[Wilbur Pan]

Given the mountain of advice online I don't think it'd be a total mess. If someone is smart enough to come ask about which plane to get they're probably smart enough to google vintage planes and find Leach's site, this one, and a few others, they'll be fine. Anyone doing woodworking is probably handy enough to figure it out from online material. You guys who push this "they should own a 300$ plane so they know how they work" always ignore the fact that there is a ton of advice available.

I didn't ignore the fact that there is a lot of advice available. To repeat myself,


...[M]y usual answer to "What's the first plane I should get?" is "Take a class on using hand planes and sharpening, or find a local woodworking club and look for the hand tool guy." This is the sort of thing that I've found makes a much larger impact in person than on the internet.

For those people who don't have access to either classes or a hand tool maven, a Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley plane may be the only hope they have of seeing what a well tuned plane can do.

My first woodworking purchase was a class. Since then, I've only bought used planes. But I also know I needed that hands on instruction experience, or I would have been lost.

If you really want to have people thinking about vintage/used planes, you might want to take this into consideration.

I think I'm reasonably bright, and I know how to use the internet. But I can also say that my concept of a fine shaving that can be gotten from a hand plane would be different if I hadn't seen it live and in person.

Basically, it's good that internet advice is out there, but it's still not as good as a live demonstration. And going out and buying a Lee Valley or Lie-Nielsen plane is an effective way of getting a live demo, as Don might attest to.

[Richard Niemiec]

So far, the only plane of mine I've fiddled with works great. A far cry from the frustration I've heard from others, though maybe I'm just lucky.

Tom


I"ve had the same experience with a few of my planes too; generally they were Type 11 bench planes, and were likely fettled by the original owner, who made a living with it. Then someone put it on a shelf. And they generally have less than full blades; heck, my #3 Type 11 had been sharpened almost all the way to the chipbreaker screw hole; it got a new Hock blade....works great!

RN

[James Mittlefehldt]

I have been following this thread with interest amd would first like to commend the various writers for discussing their divergent viewpoints without coming to cyber blows.

My own opinion is that it does not matter how you get to using hand tools, but rather that you get there period. As to the buy good to see how a well tuned plane works I would say there is some merit in that, except while you may discover, at a price, what a truly well tuned plane does, you still have to know how to sharpen it after the fact.

There is no right or wrong here but I agree that sometimes people, albiet well meaning, tend to put forth the idea that buying new quality is the way to get started. It works for many but as has been pointed out by some here in this thread, the price tag of a new LN can be scary to say the least.

Another idea that seems to be out there, outside my own experience however, is that to fettle an older plane will take hours and hours of working in zen like meditation, ( all right I may be exagerating a bit) to get an old plane into working trim.

I doubt that I have ever spent more than five minutes removing the chips in the edges of old blades either plane or chisel, but if you listen to some people telling how they work the sole of a plane for hours upon hours on a calibrated machined granite work surface with the abrasive of their choice, no wonder so many people want to buy a plane that works well out of the box.

I have seen twice where someone has had the temerity to ask individuals if in fact they actually tried to use their planes before resorting to this hair shirt flattening/sharpening regime and in both cases there was no answer.

Personally I am not a metal worker I am a wood worker, or at least I aspire to be. However I have had little trouble in finding planes that are flat enough to be used, with a small amount of work. I have three LV planes, a type 17 Stanley that works well enough, and a type 13 that works very well, (cost $12). I also have four Ohio Tool planes, ( I am not a collector, he says forcefully, if not convincingly) and am for the most part done with planes.

My personal opinion is that the best advice offred in the entire thread was by Wilbur Pan who said go and find a course and get some hands on training, it will pay huge dividends.

As to the original poster he bought a plane and I am sure he will be very very happy with it, I know I would be. As I said earlier and others have also said there is no right or wrong, just differences of opinion based on individual experience.

[Michael Gibbons]

Geez, good thing I got to put my answer down for the original question early. I think we might run out of hard drive space:eek::D.

Do I do a whole lot of work with my tools? NO

Do I spend a lot on tools? YES

Am I a member of the Black Hole (general wwing) club? YES

Am I a member of the Vortex club? YES

Am I a member of the Slippery Slope club? YES

Do I usually buy the best available or the latest hot gadget? YES

Do I need the best available or the lastest hot gadget? NO

I realized not too long ago that I might just be buying tools for the sake of buying tools and that getting to the point of having a seperate stand alone shop behind the house, ( hopefully in the next couple years), and having the best tools available, ( in my opinion) , just might be the final goal. Don't get me wrong, I love woodworking and making firewood. I don't believe that there are two members here that have the same financial, marital or WWing situation as the next one. The LOML lets me get new stuff within reason because I don't cheat on her, gamble (except at Superbowl time), drink, smoke or do drugs and hunting season is only a few weekends per year for me. We both work making a decent living. In a situation like that, I'll take her up on her generosity everytime. And when I do, I won't go buy used anything. She's come around to my way of thinking since we got married. I've only bought one used car and really hated it. It was always something. I have better things to do than to work on other peoples problems whether it's a #5 or a car. Next time you go to your local Woodcraft, ask to see a Stanley and a same size Lie-Nielsen at the same time. Look at the machining and feel the handle, Look at the tolerances. I guarantee you'll notice the differences and if you can't then your senses are seriously impaired. And if you can and the differences aren't that important to you, then by all means get the cheaper one. It's your cash. On Rob Cosmans Handcut Dovetails video, he talks about the Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw. He says it's incredible because all the things you would need to do to get a cheap saw working properly is already done. Ready to go right out of the box. How much is your time worth??

[Marcus Ward]

Please note, Michael, that I am talking only about vintage stanleys. New stanleys you'd find at woodcraft are utter junk and only to be used as paperweights or to be flung out of a high school physics project trebuchet.

Also, I'm not a lawyer or doctor, I don't calculate how much my time is worth. If I'm in the shop enjoying myself tuning a plane or making something out of wood, it's all fine in my book. The only time I give a **** how much my time is worth is when I'm working or doing something I don't like, and then I charge accordingly.

Turns out I am going on Sunday to the woodworking show since we have to do some work today. I am guessing you guys all went today?

[Michael Gibbons]

Marcus, Woodworking show? Where? when? why? who? what? I'm saving my coins for the March Madness sale at Woodcraft March 1st. I was speaking in general terms and not neccesarily talking about new Stanleys. Even with a great deal on a old Stanley or any other antique production plane thats in pristine condition, one might still have a great deal of work to do to get it tuned,something I have no patience for. On the other hand, I could see how it can give one a reason to get into the shop and hide from the family for a while. The tolerances of castings and machining are just so much better today than yesteryear.

[John Schreiber]

Friends,

If you don't mind my breaking in, I'd like to report on my Lie Nielsen 60 ½ Low Angle Adjustable Mouth Block Plane which came in the mail yesterday. I actually think that it does relate to some of the above.

It is indeed beautiful. I am comparing it with a Sears Craftsman Block Plane I received about 20 years ago. The Craftsman plane looks roughly like the one which is for sale right now at K-Mart for $16.00 (http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_9990000002049811P?vName=Tools%20&%20Outdoors&cName=HandTools&sName=Planers%20&%20Shaping%20Tools&psid=FROOGLE&sid=KDx20070926x00003a). I put a lot of fettling work into the Craftsman, flattening the bottom, cleaning the paint off the body where it contacts the blade, smoothing the contact surface and flattening and sharpening the blade. I felt like it worked pretty well for a “normal angle” block plane without an adjustable mouth.

In terms of fit and finish, the Lie Nielsen is quantum leaps above the Craftsman. Every surface is pleasant to the touch and the eye. The critical surfaces are machined with precision and rotating the knobs is a pleasure. Backlash is marvelously tiny. The blade came fairly sharp but more importantly very flat.

I scary sharpened the blade and checked it for square and flatness (no problems). Then some real world testing. It did everything I asked of it very nicely, but it only beat my 20 year old cheapo on a few points.


It can handle end grain on every kind of wood I had in the shop. It’s the first plane I’ve had which will keep me from having to sand the ends of a board. And that is quite significant.
On reversing grain, where the Craftsman will always cause tear out, I can close down the mouth and sometimes get a smooth cut. Likewise, with the mouth just barely open, I can often plane against the grain and still get a smooth cut. In everything else, the cheaper but well fettled tool did the job just as well.

I was surprised by how uncomfortable it is in use. I think I will adjust, but my big hands extend well beyond the shiny cap iron and I kept pressing uncomfortably on the mouth adjuster, the back of the blade adjustment nut, and when using the plane in a shooting board on the body itself.

I think what this tells me is that I have done a pretty good job of fettling the planes I have. That if I could find a vintage 60 ½, I could clean it up and it would be nearly as good as this one. Overall, I’ve got to say that I’m a bit disappointed. I hoped to hear birds singing and to learn that I had been missing the good stuff all these years. Instead, I have a very well made tool which does its job just like it should. I’ll keep watching garage sales and flea markets and slowly, I’ll fettle a good collection into shape. If my financial situation changes one day, then maybe I’ll buy another Lie-Nielsen.

[Mike Cutler]

Geez John. I can't believe you have the nerve to break in on your own thread :D,;)

Glad to hear that the plane worked out for you. It is a nice plane, and as long as mine does the end grain work for me I'm happy.

You hit the nail on the head with this sentence.
"Instead, I have a very well made tool which does its job just like it should. I’ll keep watching garage sales and flea markets and slowly, I’ll fettle a good collection into shape. If my financial situation changes one day, then maybe I’ll buy another Lie-Nielsen."

Now about that shooting board problem. LN has a very nice Stanley #9 reproduction, but their Stanley 164 reproduction actually works better for me.

The slope is soooooo slippery.

Once again, congrats on the 60 1/2, and thanks for starting this thread.:D

[Danny Thompson]

Hmmm . . . Marcus, sounds like John has joined the rebellion. Congrats, John. If you ever get tired of your 60 1/2, let me know.


I'll take this opportunity to weigh in on the hijack discussion . . .

Total cost of ownership is a critical factor. If you plan on accumulating and never selling, and you have the time and inclination to fettle, I think Marcus's position is solid.

Having said that, I have argued in the past and fully believe that your first fettle won't be as easy or as cheap as you think and could easily end up costing you the same as a nice Lee Valley. You will learn a lot in the process, but know what your are in for.

Still, there may be a strong reason to go the LN rather than the rehab route. And it comes down to Total Cost of Ownership. If there is any chance you will sell your planes in the future (e.g., you are either:

1) the kind of person who takes up a hobby, gets very intense with it for a few years, and then backs off a bit later; or
2) the kind of person who likes to try new tools, rotate through them over time;
3) or really have any intention of selling your tools at a later date)

AND you can afford the initial outlay THEN there is no cheaper way to go than LNs. The reality seems to be that, since used LNs routinely sell for at or above their original purchase price, they have essentially $0 cost of ownership. If you buy LN, you can sell it later for the same amount.

Clint Jones clearly demonstrates that you can rehab planes for profit, but he seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

[Marcus Ward]

Since a nice cleaned up stanley plane almost always sells for more than you paid for it, it would seem that stanleys have a negative cost of ownership. My first fettle went relatively painlessly and was done quickly. Everyone makes this out to be some righteous torture - it's not. Anyone who thinks otherwise is welcome to bring a vintage stanley over to see how it's done.

[Mike Gabbay]

John - if you are not pleased with the purchase you can return it. LN is really very good about that. It sounds like you do a nice job of tuning up your older Stanleys.

[Jay Fields]

Marcus –

Just some comments from a newbie neander falling down the “buy old Stanley tools to get better value and performance” slippery slope.

I’m sure this is all information overload to any beginning woodworker looking to go neander, but I must add my 2 cents to the pot. You have made many good points that I agree with, but I question two of your comments concerning LN’s bling and cost.

Bling-bling (usually shortened to bling) is a hip hop slang term that refers to elaborate, gaudy jewelry and other accouterments, and also to a lifestyle built around excessive spending and ostentation – wikipedia.org

Bling - Except for the cocobolo handle “option”, I can’t think any accoutrements on a LN plane which do not have a direct impact on its performance or reliability (whether measurable or perceived).

Cost – To be fair, cost comparisons should be made to the Bed Rock (bedrock) series of Stanley’s. In that case, buying some clean, well tuned bedrocks will often cost more than a comparable LN (i.e. Stanley 604 ½ vs LN 4 ½). Other original Stanley’s such as a bevel up 62 or 164 will cost you significantly more than a LN 62 or 164. Same goes for a 212 scraper plane and others I’m sure. In many cases, I’d say the LN plane is a better value.

Now lets talk English infills……not.
J

[John Schreiber]

John - if you are not pleased with the purchase you can return it. LN is really very good about that. It sounds like you do a nice job of tuning up your older Stanleys.
I am pleased with the plane. I think it does everything that could be expected of it. The ability to get a planed surface on end grain is something I can't get any other way. There is also great pleasure in owning a very finely made tool.

I was only disappointed that there was not a level of performance above and beyond what I had known before.

[Marcus Ward]

Bling - Except for the cocobolo handle “option”, I can’t think any accoutrements on a LN plane which do not have a direct impact on its performance or reliability (whether measurable or perceived).

I use it because a lot of people indicate they like the LNs because they look nice. It fits. I realize everyone at SMC uses their tools, so perhaps my comments are not for them.


Cost – To be fair, cost comparisons should be made to the Bed Rock (bedrock) series of Stanley’s.

Only if the Bedrock series offers appreciably better performance, I'm not convinced they do. We're talking about putting a surface on a board, other considerations aside. One thing people always point out is ease of adjusting the frog with the traut patent planes. This talk is hilarious to me. Once I get them set I leave them there. Good old plain jane stanleys are so cheap you can have 3 or 4 set different ways if changing the frog is really such an onerous chore.

You can find bedrocks plenty cheap if you know how to hunt. I passed on an early 605 for 15$ because at the time I had 5 #5s and couldn't justify another one. :)

[Peter Quinn]

Last summer I bought and flattened, cleaned, tuned, honed tweaked and carressed a $15 Bailey #4 1/2? bench plane for more than 20 hours over a long weekend. Glad I did it. Great fun. If I had paid myself my normal shop rate, I could have bought 3 lie neilson planes with that time. When finished, it worked almost as well as my lie neilson. Gave me a warm fuzzy feeling doing it (may just have been exhaustion), but at some point you might ask yourself am I a wood worker or a metal worker? Or both? Lie neilsons are sharp, flat, perfect finish and balance, pleasure to use, give me a warmer, fuzzier feeling than grinding down an old worn frog!

[Jay Fields]

. . . . Once I get them set I leave them there. Good old plain jane stanleys are so cheap you can have 3 or 4 set different ways if changing the frog is really such an onerous chore.

So true. Wish I'd known that before. I was convinced of the superiority of the bedrock adjustment mechanism by the great accolades in Garrett Hack's book. But after I tweaked up my 603, 604 ½, and 605 for smoothing, I’ve never made a significant adjustment since. If I want to hog out a bit more wood, I use other 4, 5, or 6’s that I keep with the mouth opened up.

[Joel Goodman]

One of the advantages of the Bedrock design is that the frogs give better support for the plane iron -- it isn't only the adjustment that is an improvement over the Bailey type frog. The LNs and Clifton's are based on that design. That's not to say that a good Bailey will not do the job!

[Marcus Ward]

One of the advantages of the Bedrock design is that the frogs give better support for the plane iron -- it isn't only the adjustment that is an improvement over the Bailey type frog. The LNs and Clifton's are based on that design. That's not to say that a good Bailey will not do the job!

Yes I know this, I purposely ignored it because I don't think it's a necessary 'advantage'. I could be wrong, but I've never been in a situation with one of my plane janes where I said, "You know? I wish this blade had more support!"

[Marcus Ward]

Last summer I bought and flattened, cleaned, tuned, honed tweaked and carressed a $15 Bailey #4 1/2? bench plane for more than 20 hours over a long weekend.

Before you started, when you did all your test planing to see what was wrong with it, what in particular about how it was cutting led you to believe that the sole needed that much flattening?

[Phillip Pattee]

Marcus, I think many people assume that an old stanley bailey needs work, whereas a LN is ready to go right out of the box. I have never had to flatten a sole. I have taken the plane to sandpaper on plate glass to clean up some surface rust and smooth out some areas of pitting, but that is about it. Mostly I disassemble them, give them a cleaning, sometimes in citric acid. I sharpen the blade, put it back together. Works fine. I haven't even "upgraded" the blades with offerings from LN, Hock, et al.

I don't doubt that the thicker LN blade made from A2 steel will out perform the thinner carbon steel stanley blade in some difficult cuts. Frankly, I think this is most of the difference in performance. The main thing is the sharpness, toughness, and thickness of the blade. But, as can be seen from another thread on Bridge City Tools, there are aspects of tool design that make more expensive tools out perform the LN tools. In that thread the owners of expensive Bridge City planes are having to defend themselves against accusations of tool snob. Why? It is clearly a better built, and more asthetically pleasing tool than the LN. Why doesn't that justify the higher price?

I like my stanley baileys. In fact my best user #5 is a type 20. It has the blue japanning, a lateral adjustment lever that is made from bent over metal, but real hardwood handles. Most of what I have read would suggest that I could never get such a plane to work because the quality is poor. It sure didn't need much fettling and it works just fine. If I can find a bargain bedrock, I'll buy it, but I'm not convinced that the bedrock design has any real performance advantage over the bailey design--but that is a topic for another thread.

[Don C Peterson]

In that thread the owners of expensive Bridge City planes are having to defend themselves against accusations of tool snob.

And the fact that they have to defend themselves against the insinuation of tool snobbery says some pretty ugly things about the accusers... Good grief, must class warfare and envy rear their ugly heads everywhere?

[Marcus Ward]

Well, I wasn't the one who accused anyone of it. :) I gladly wear the labels 'beer snob', 'cigar snob' and so tool snob .. .eh, who gives a &*&*. It just means I don't like junk! :)

[Jim Becker]

Folks, let's just agree that for some, old iron and fettling is the right choice and for some folks buying new from places like L-N is the right choice. There is no one right way to acquire tools. If this thread keeps smoldering the way it has been, the moderation staff will have to close it to further posting.

Thanks in advance for your kind cooperation and understanding.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Marcus Ward]

Jim, you have got to be kidding me. I felt this thread was incredibly civil. Perhaps I'm just dense. Seriously.

[Dan Barr]

To tail off of marcus' words:

I think there are woodworkers of every type. there are those who are more handy and like to restore the flea market find. there are those who want the top of the line, those who do both, those who dont woodwork but buy all the stuff, and on and on.

I am one those who woodworks secretly without hardly any planes or plane knowledge and I produce acceptable work in my own opinion. I tell you this though; I'm really tired of sanding.

I had 5 planes til the other day. only 3 of them usable at the moment. (im not a good fettler yet) I bought a LN 1/2 bronze shoulder plane and a LN iron low angle block plane (apron pocket plane). So now i have 7 planes.

I love those two LN planes! it only took me one second to tell myself that i should have bought one of these planes a long time ago. I tried the flea market thing and will continue to learn how to fettle and restore planes.

but for now, im trying to woodwork (profanity withheld). im tired of getting sidetracked by learning every other skill in the book that doesnt have anything to do with the project at hand. At first, i thought; oh, well i'll spend a few more minutes and flatten that or hone this or whatever. NO MORE!!! ive lost more time than i'd care to calculate. i want to woodwork. not metalwork, flatten, adjust or whatever.

without the plane knowledge, i was not able to tune my stanleys perfectly. so i have avoided using the 2 of them that i cant figure out just yet. i'll learn it one day, just not now though.

i'll write more later.

cheers,

dan

[Clint Jones]

Congragulations John on your purchase please let us know how it works out when you recieve the plane (pics!!!).


I just read this whole thread. Dang guys. I am happy there are companies like LN and LV around. There are some LN planes you can buy for less than the vintage versions (ever price a vintage 212, 85, 62, or chisel plane???) If you have the money I suggest buying a LN or LV.

Plane tuning is overrated and made too complicated. No.5 edge jointing and flattening.

I sharpened the blade to 30 deg with a microbevel.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/blad.jpg

Now its ready to go. Very versatile plane. Started out with rough piece of walnut I needed to prepare. First its jointing the edges since it is a short piece I just used the 5. Started out with thick shavings to get it straight.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/thick.jpg

Once it was straight, I set it for thin shavings to smooth it out.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/wispy1.jpg
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/wispy2.jpg

Next take a slight bow out of the face by going diagonal to the grain. Removing the high spots.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/cross.jpg

This is how the board face looked at the start
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/rough.jpg

And after.
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/smooth.jpg


http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/planer1.jpg
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/junkerjones/planer2.jpg

[John Schreiber]

. . . Plane tuning is overrated and made too complicated. . . .
This is how the board face looked at the start . . . And after.
There is a beauty to a fresh planed surface which is not available any other way. After finishing it may not make much difference, but it's just such a pleasure in the process.

Now the difficulty or importance of tuning a plane is another question which has already been covered here in gross detail. Clearly different people have different tolerances for working on planes, for spending money, for the quality of the plane as a collectors item or as a user. Also, vintage planes can be in great shape, almost ready to use, or they can be junkers which require a lot of work. I've had both.

[Marcus Ward]

I am one those who woodworks secretly without hardly any planes or plane knowledge and I produce acceptable work in my own opinion. I tell you this though; I'm really tired of sanding.

I hate sanding too. Get a #4 1/2, either LN or Stanley or whatever you can afford, and use that instead of sanding. If you don't want to back bevel the blade and do a lot of figured work, get the high angle frog for the LN too, as it'll take care of that squirrely grain. Sanding is the devil.:mad:

[Don C Peterson]

Sanding is the devil.:mad:

Now that's and area where we TOTALLY agree. I hate sanding, but despite my use of hand planes and scrapers I can't totally eliminate sanding, particularly in between finish coats. However, what little sanding I do is all hand sanding, I haven't fired up my ROS in months. I don't miss the noisy, dust spitting monster.

[Greg Cole]

Dan,
I'll echo what Marcus said, get a #4 (couple of Stanleys in the Creek Classifieds as an FYI). Mine happened to come from the factory in Maine, regardless do yourself the justice of at least giving the random orbit a break, or in my case almost retired.:D Many of my past projects are acceptable to me IMO that have sanded surfaces, but a smooth plane makes a nicer finished surface & is MUCH faster. My current hall table project went machine finish on all parts to prepped for finish in @ 30 minutes. Betting I'd have spend that much time on the top alone with the random orbit.... still to have to hand sand after raising the grain before finishing and some very light snading between coats of finish etc.....but thats the only sanding you'll catch me doing now.
The doldrums of sanding was my big push on "the slope", granted I'm very much a hybrid in terms of my work being tailed & unplugged but the ROS can stay unplugged.
Man this thread has legs...

Greg

PS- Marcus, I see you peeked out of the cave here into the GW forum?;)

[Marcus Ward]

Now that's and area where we TOTALLY agree.

Aw heck guys i don't have anything against the pricey very nice rolls royce tools, nothing at all. I own a couple, I just have a problem with the new guys only getting recommendations for them and not the more affordable stuff. I'm trying to give a little balance so people who can't afford the nice stuff can still enjoy working with hand tools. Having to defend my position vigorously pushes me into a situation where it looks like I hate anything over 20$, it ain't true. :)


PS- Marcus, I see you peeked out of the cave here into the GW forum?;)

It was an accident, I swear. ;)

[Greg Cole]

Don,
The hall table I mentioned earlier is my first presentable Neander prepped project as in all joinery & surface finishing. I pissed & moaned about having to use sandpaper at all & almost sprayed alcohol base dye so as to not sand after grain raising.... but there's just no way to avoid some sanding between coats building the finish per the schedule. Kinda is what it is......has to be done, so I'll shuddap and do it when I HAVE to.
Marcus,
I missed the beer snob earlier, never heard that before & was snot out the nose funny.:D

Greg

[Marcus Ward]

I missed the beer snob earlier, never heard that before & was snot out the nose funny.:D

Yeah I got labeled that because I wouldn't drink miller light, and preferred New Belgium 1554. :)

M

[Thomas Knighton]

Eh. I was called a beer snob once because I won't drink Milwaulkee's Best of all things.

It's not my fault that I prefer Guinness, is it? ;)

Tom

[Glenn Clabo]

Miller Light is beer:confused::confused::confused:.

[Thomas Knighton]

Miller Light is beer:confused::confused::confused:.

Not really, but terms of service here at SMC prevent me from sharing my true feelings about Miller Light. ;)

Tom

[Greg Cole]

Now that we've solved the worlds problems on the subject of vintage planes versus newly manufactured ones & established the fact that we all hate sanding... we can sit n talk about beer.:D
FWIW, Miller Lite, Bud light etc.... only count as "beer" if they are all that's in the fridge. My last Milwaukee aka "The Beast" anything was in college....

Greg - Who has more time on his hands today than things to do....

[Don C Peterson]

Now I'm going to say something really controversial that just might get me kicked out of the club... I can't believe that you guys LIKE to drink rotten grain mixed with a few bitter tasting flowers!

[Lee Koepke]

Now I'm going to say something really controversial that just might get me kicked out of the club... I can't believe that you guys LIKE to drink rotten grain mixed with a few bitter tasting flowers!
there is the smooth Kentucky Bourbon Sippin Whisky to enjoy on the back porch ...

[Marcus Ward]

Ha! I not only like rotten barley and bitter flowers, I make my own!

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

And you drink what Don??

[Don C Peterson]

No alcohol for me, about as strong as I get is Mountain Dew. But I'm pretty libertarian in all my views, so I'm not trying to pass judgement... I never did like the taste of beer, but that's just me.

[Greg Cole]

Don,
No worries, you're leaving us more of what we like...
Oddly enough, regardless of subject we all seem to agree that we all disagree?
Lee,
Makers Mark is one of my favorites, but I'm almost too cheap to buy it. I save my pennies for planes from Maine....:D Ahhh, I couldn't help that one.
Ok, me thinks me needs to find something to do & get away from the tube for a bit.... :rolleyes:

Greg

[Steve Clardy]

Whew. Took 15 minutes to read this thread. :eek::D


From planes to beer. Lol

[Thomas Knighton]

Whew. Took 15 minutes to read this thread. :eek::D


From planes to beer. Lol

They're not that different. Buying either gets me in the same amount of trouble with SWMBO ;)

Tom

[Mike Cutler]

They're not that different. Buying either gets me in the same amount of trouble with SWMBO ;)

Tom

I find that dropping either one of them on a concrete floor is also met with similar results. A lot of cussing and swearing:D

I'll take a nice Anejo anyday.;)

[Thomas Knighton]

Maybe we should do a thread about all the ways a good beer and a good plane are similar ;)

Tom

[Pedro Reyes]

Do I really want anejo?

Or can I do with reposado?

Just kidding. I am a Tequila snob, and beer snob too.

Too many strong opinions on this thread. No need to add to the insanity ;).

To each his own at the end of the day. In beer, drinks, and of course tools.

Even the crappiest beer will get you drunk, it is just more pleasant with Guinness :p

peace

/p

[Marcus Ward]

Even the crappiest beer will get you drunk, it is just more pleasant with Guinness :p

Crap. You just ruined all my arguments in favor of the cheap seats. When you make an analogy with BEER of course it makes more sense. #@$%

[Phillip Pattee]

I find that dropping either one of them on a concrete floor is also met with similar results. A lot of cussing and swearing:D

Boy you can say that again! I was transporting a batch of cherry ale I had made down to the basement for storage and the box ripped. I lost a six pack. What a mess. And it was my beer...:( Haven't dropped any planes yet though.

By the way, brewing your own beer is economical. You can have premium live ale for about 75 cents a bottle. Its like fettling an old stanley plane and you get the performace of a LN for much less. I've found that if you also make some sweet white wines SWMBO is in favor of the hobby.:D

[Thomas Knighton]

I've found that if you also make some sweet white wines SWMBO is in favor of the hobby.:D

Unfortunately for me, SWMBO isn't a fan of beer or wine. Now, if I could home brew Jameson's :D

Tom

[Marcus Ward]

By the way, brewing your own beer is economical. You can have premium live ale for about 75 cents a bottle. Its like fettling an old stanley plane and you get the performace of a LN for much less. I've found that if you also make some sweet white wines SWMBO is in favor of the hobby.:D


My wife loves beer so I can avoid the wine thing. Are you doing all grain? My stout comes out to 33c/bottle. I keg it too, so dropping it isn't a problem. Keeping the dogs away from the taps is though! :eek:

[Greg Cole]

I find that dropping either one of them on a concrete floor is also met with similar results. A lot of cussing and swearing:D

I'll take a nice Anejo anyday.;)

Can't recall having a beer fatality in the shop, but definately a few have lost their life building the deck, rehabbing the shed into a pool house.... may they rest in peace.:rolleyes:
Dropped my LN 9 1/2 not too long ago working with a slight handicap since I manicured my pinky on my 8" jointer.....just OF COURSE it landed on the back corner of the sole and put a nice little dinger there which had to be lapped out. BOO HOO HOO, watching it fall to the floor seemed to take about 10 minutes until the solid thud of cast iron meeting concrete.:(
I'd have had time to get a foot under it, but I was holding my hand like a little girl..... not sure what I'll get over first butchering the end of my pinky on December 17th, or dropping my 9 1/2 on January 30th? Dropping a plane has made me consider a crash mat for standing on for hand tool work.

Greg

[Phillip Pattee]

Marcus,
You are very perceptive. No, I am not all grain brewing. At this point I am using extract, specialty malts and of course hops. I recently decided to switch from dry malt extract and to buy my malts and grains in bulk so this will drive the cost down more. Most of my brews average about 45 to 50 cents/bottle. That particular cherry ale used 10 lbs. of tart cherries in it and drove the price up. I have some hops in the freezer; I'm considering selling several ounces so that maybe I can buy a LN plane.:) I may sometime in the future go the all grain route, but that would be another capital investment. Where to put those hobby dollars, woodworking or brewing?
That is part of the decision to refurb vintage stanleys insteade of springing for the more costly tools. Do I want a Lie-Nielsen? You bet, but wanting one and deciding that this is the most important use of available funds isn't the same thing. There are alternatives that so far, given my skill and projects, work just fine.

[Marcus Ward]

Ahhh I feel your pain, Phil. All said I didn't invest that much in all grain althoug hit has grown a bit. Lansing isn't too far from here if you want to come down some time when I'm doing an all grain batch, see what all is involved. I bet I can even procure a keggle for you. 15$. :) Yeah where to spend the dollars is always the question. Of course, if you go AG you save money in the long run and you can buy more planes. I am trying to get a group order together for next year if you want to get in on it. About 30$/50lb bag for malt but probably not till may or june.

[Pedro Reyes]

Please don't kick us into a homebrewing forum...

I started brewing myself, mini-mash only so far not all grain... where does that put me if you had to equate that to woodworking?

Normite - Buy Zima
Hybrid - Buy beer
Buy LN or LV - Buy Guinness/Boddingtons etc.
Buy Stanley and restore - Make beer (mini-mash)
Make your own plane - All grain brewing

Or are these silly comparisons off?

/p

[Greg Cole]

[quote=Pedro Reyes;769532]

Normite - Buy Zima
Hybrid - Buy beer
Buy LN or LV - Buy Guinness/Boddingtons etc.
Buy Stanley and restore - Make beer (mini-mash)
Make your own plane - All grain brewing

Or are these silly comparisons off?

Pedro,
I never fit into any categories. I like Canadian beer-ale style & Irish style Ales..... and I buy LN-LV's. Then again I grew up 40 miles from the Us-Canadian border in northern Vermont.

Cheers.

[Marcus Ward]

Or are these silly comparisons off?

/p


Pretty spot on if you ask me! I guess I better make some planes.

[Mike Cutler]

Too many strong opinions on this thread. No need to add to the insanity ;).
peace

/p


Pedro

It's winter up here.
Insanity is what we do.
let's bring it on til' spring:D.

Mike

PS.
I wonder if a portion of a thread has ever been moved to Off Topic. This one took a really cool bend in the road.;)

[Marcus Ward]

It's one of those most enjoyable threads I've ever participated in on here.

[Lee Koepke]

It's one of those most enjoyable threads I've ever participated in on here.
it sure has covered ALOT of bases here .... :D

[Thomas Knighton]

it sure has covered ALOT of bases here .... :D

We've gone from planes to beer...and NOW you want baseball too! ;)

Sorry, it's been a long, long day and I'm bored so I just couldn't resist :D

Tom

[Pedro Reyes]

Pedro

It's winter up here.
Insanity is what we do.
let's bring it on til' spring:D.

Mike

PS.
I wonder if a portion of a thread has ever been moved to Off Topic. This one took a really cool bend in the road.;)

See Mike, I'm in Austin down here in the "Republic", it is 69 what I consider the perfect temperature and I am having a Young's SLA (Special London Ale) and some venison sausage on crackers (cold), thinly sliced after it was smoked and then grilled yesterday... Maybe that's why I didn't stress over this thread ;). I don't hunt, not the gun type, but I know enough people who do.

/p

[Marcus Ward]

Sitting in the garage, drinking Boulevard Irish Ale, smoking a La Gloria Cubana Wavell, it's.. no idea, damn cold outside, but toasty in the garage. I had cookies for dinner. Your mom ever say, "Don't eat those cookies, you'll ruin your dinner" and you responded with, "When I grow up I'll have cookies for dinner!" I did. :)

[Greg Cole]

It's one of those most enjoyable threads I've ever participated in on here.

And to think the fun really started after you called yourself a beer snob....:D Although I do admit I sort of enhoy some of the more umm.... adamant discourse at times. Marcus, the offer to help with machining irons outta be a little more push to make a plane or planes.... and now ya went and posted your intentions, so you're on the hook.;)
I was thinking about the thread being about 10 miles off point as I was babbling the other day too. To think this all started 'cause John asked a simple question about spending a gift certificate heating up to where we all got warned to be nice and now we're talking about our beverages of choice. Never dod stop to say I'm sick of hearing about baseball (I mean steriod stuff) in December-January & now Feb... If you recognize my avatar... now you're in my boat.
Funny ol' thread this has become. And yes I agree, it's one of the better threads I've read and been part of...

Cheers 'tho is a wee early for that.

Greg

[James Mittlefehldt]

If you want to see a true beer snob ask a Canadian about American beer. Personally I am delighted in the trend in the US to small breweries and brew pubs, tasted some pretty tasty items the last few years. My preferences tend towards dark and heavy with beer or ale.

Don't have any beer or wine in the workshop it affects my perspective somewhat, so I never dropped a bottle, though I never ever drink beer from a bottle unless in dire need.

I did have a plane hit a concrete floor once though, a real sweet Ohio Tool No.06 I ddi not see it hit the floor but I heard it and I knew it was done for.

Ahh well time for a Sleeman's Fine Porter.

(I also prefer single malt to blended to)

[Jim Becker]

This has become a plane crazy thread.... :eek: :o :p :) :D

[Greg Cole]

Admittedly quite guilty of helping steer off course here. So at least I tied my last post to the OP's initial post....:rolleyes:
James,
The funny thing is if you've ever done any International travel... damn bottom of the barrel Budweiser is all over the place. The worst parts of American society seem to permeate the globe, but yes thankfully the micro brew trend has made it inland from the east n west coasts!

Greg

[Corvin Alstot]

This has become a plane crazy thread.... :eek: :o :p :) :D So after #11 pages we find we need beer, Old Stanleys and Lie Nielsen planes . . .

[Michael Gibbons]

[quote=Pedro Reyes;769532]

Normite - Buy Zima
Hybrid - Buy beer
Buy LN or LV - Buy Guinness/Boddingtons etc.
Buy Stanley and restore - Make beer (mini-mash)
Make your own plane - All grain brewing

Or are these silly comparisons off?

Pedro,
I never fit into any categories. I like Canadian beer-ale style & Irish style Ales..... and I buy LN-LV's. Then again I grew up 40 miles from the Us-Canadian border in northern Vermont.

Cheers. My parents bought a cottage in Canada when I was 1. I'd spent most of my youth years there for the whole summer, from the time I got out of school to the time I had to go back. In my pre-legal age drinking escapades, I became a fan of Brador. When ice cold,it's like cream. Luckily the border was only a few miles from home and it was easy to go there before the change in immigration policies- now you need a passport. Now I hardly drink anymore. It's a shame.

[Michael Gibbons]

O.K. I came down pretty hard on Bridge City planes in another thread saying they are way too expensive. If anyone wants to read a review of block planes, the winter 2001/2002 issue 153 of Fine Woodworking has it. The Bridge City came in at a paltry $659 :eek: and that was in 2001 dollars!!!

Can we start a poll in a thread that is in progress? I would, just for giggles, like to see how many members that are reading this have BC planes.

[Mike Cutler]

So after #11 pages we find we need beer, Old Stanleys and Lie Nielsen planes . . .


..... and,Single Malt Scotches and Tequila.
We also have to have some of that venison sausage Pedro made reference too. Man, did that sound good.

[Pedro Reyes]

..... and,Single Malt Scotches and Tequila.
We also have to have some of that venison sausage Pedro made reference too. Man, did that sound good.

The Balvenie (PortWood) Single malt 21 year, neat or perhaps with 1 cube. Ohh man. Don Julio anejo, no salt no lime, sipped (never shot) with fresh cheese or fruit (orange or pinapple slices go well)...

that sounds good indeed...

/p

[Greg Cole]

Corvin,
It's not "need" or else we'd have to admit having problems, I say beer, Although BC planes are something I am guessing not many of us have in common though.... there's my vote cast in that poll.
Irish Ale, venison (taken by me & my little dude this fall) on the menu tonight...... makers with ginger ale for desert. Pedro got me thinking venison... YUM.
Michael,
I made MANY trips to Montreal before becoming of legal age in the states...... geeze I almost feel old cause that was 15-16-17 years ago now.:confused: Ahhhh... Brador, Canadian, Labatt Blue... the stuff you buy in Canada is oh so much better.
Yes, I agree with Jim this is plane crazy & right up my alley somehow.

Greg

[Jim Becker]

Can we start a poll in a thread that is in progress? I would, just for giggles, like to see how many members that are reading this have BC planes.

The OP cannot edit the thread and posts after 24 hours.

Why not start another thread specifically to poll for who has what. But keep in mind that you'll need to construct it carefully so that all the major and almost major choices are available in addition to the ever-popular "other"....

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Dan Barr]

how about them NY Giants?

:D

dan

[Thomas Knighton]

Go Falcons!

Unfortunately, last season the only place any of them went was to prison :( ;)

Tom

[James Mittlefehldt]

..... and,Single Malt Scotches and Tequila.
We also have to have some of that venison sausage Pedro made reference too. Man, did that sound good.

Do not imbibe Tequila, but really like Talisker Single malt, and like someone before me on this thread I do not hunt or anythihng but have aquaintences that do, and am currently hoarding a pair of Venison tenderloins waiting for a special occasion.

[Corvin Alstot]

Corvin,
It's not "need" or else we'd have to admit having problems, . . .
Yes, I agree with Jim this is plane crazy . . .

Greg/ I think "need" is probably correct . . :-) , at least for some of us,
as long is its woodworking we are talking about.

[Jim Mims]

I've spent the last few days free time reading ALL these posts on "first planes".
Well, I've decided that instead of buying a Stanley 12-960 from the borg, or buying an older Stanley 60 1/2 and putting a Hock blade in it (remember this is for my first plane), I just bought the Iron LN 102 for $64.50.
I think that would even make Marcus proud. <g>
My reasoning was this was very comparable in price to an older plane and a new blade.
And like others have said, I'll have a benchmark.
I'd like to thank everyone for their postings and being very generous with their advice, it sure helped me!
- Jim

[John Schreiber]

I hate to bring up this old thread, but after using my new plane on a few projects, I've got more information.

The Lie Nielsen has become my default go-to plane. Any of my planes can be set up to work very well, but the ease of adjustment and consistent results I get with this little guy make it a joy to work with. I sometimes use it when I should be using a smooth plane and I have been know to work end grain just for my own entertainment.

I can quickly and reliably change from taking a transparent sliver off of end grain, or I can open it up and make a decent chamfer in three or four strokes. I haven't sharpened it yet and it's still smooth as silk. In fact, I haven't even disassembled it to clean it out and keep it working smoothly. It hasn't needed it. My hand fits perfectly to the shiny brass surface and it can be worked with two hands when needed.

So, in summary, I feel like the Lie Nielsen was a better value than I did before.

[Brian Kent]

John, I am trying to sort through the thousands of posts in this thread. Which Lie Nielsen did you end up with?

[Jack Camillo]

I'm thinking he went for the adjustable mouth block plane. Just a guess. And if so, I agree it's very nice to use for multiple tasks.

I'll also take this opportunity to say that, in spite of several threads and or blogs I've seen about the LN chisel plane being a 'paperweight,' over a year's time mine has come in handy on more occasions that I can count, and couldn't think of a better tool to use on those occasions. I'll be posting pictures of it in use on my somewhat unorthodox pergola project.

[John Schreiber]

Jack is right. I got the "Lie Nielsen 60 ½ Low Angle Adjustable Mouth Block Plane."

A while back I had reported
Overall, I’ve got to say that I’m a bit disappointed. I hoped to hear birds singing and to learn that I had been missing the good stuff all these years. Instead, I have a very well made tool which does its job just like it should. I’ll keep watching garage sales and flea markets and slowly, I’ll fettle a good collection into shape. If my financial situation changes one day, then maybe I’ll buy another Lie-Nielsen. I still don't know about making the birds sing more sweetly, but I do think that in my review above, I had not given the Lie Nielsen the credit it deserves.

I also think I was confused before in one of my analogies. I said that I am a Timex or Seiko kind of guy and that the Lie Nielsen was a Rolex. I think instead that the kind of planes which you can buy new nowadays at a home center for $20 - $30 are equivalent to the kind of wrist watch that has no brand name and comes sealed in plastic. A Lie Nielsen is more like a really good Seiko or Citizen - a watch that should last forever if given reasonable care.

Used and refurbished planes are another story and at least the ones I have refurbished do not come up to the adjustability and consistent ease of use I have found with this block plane.

[Johnny Kleso]

I own a ton of Stanley's but do own a two LNs
I have a 140 and a 73

Either one of those would be a good pick or a few new blades is another selection...

[Jim Newman]

As David Charlesworth pointed out long ago in his article on tuning a block plane, planes from Stanley, Record, etc, are really kits not ready to work properly by a long shot. Lie-Nielsen gives you a truly quality casting with superior machining, which greatly simplifies getting a plane to the "gold standard" in performance. It feels great in your hands and performs great. The fact it looks great and will long outlive us is an added bonus! Same old story in life....pay me now...or pay me later....just your choice on how you choose to part the hair! I was an early purchaser of Lie-Nielsen planes, primarily of the Low Angle variety and after nearly 20 years have got to say I love them, so they stand the test of time for me! I also own a stable of Stanley planes I have been slowly refurbishing and have got to say the Lie Nielsen planes are great value when I consider my time and money to get them into shape. I much prefer to use my planes to do things with that get great results in the hardwoods I predominately use, rather than working on the planes themselves most of the time, though it does have its charm when you are redoing an old classic. Some people love to collect tools and rumor has it there may be one or 2 here like that. I understand the mentality as I have slipped further down the slippery slope, but making things with wood is really my goal, so Lie Nielsen hits the mark all the way around and gives great value on many levels. Thanks for giving us your impressions as you journey down this path to woodworking nirvana....great thread everyone!

[Mike Cutler]

Wow!!

This thread is back. Way Cool!!!!:cool:

We covered a lot of ground with this one. Planes, plane restoration, beer, brown liquor, tequila, sausage, home brewing, and other topics.

Looks like we all made it through winter, and everyone is back in the shop, 'cept me. I'm in the bathroom, or at least someday it will be a bathroom again.:eek:, I hope.:rolleyes:

I still gotta make it down Texas way for some sausage and tequila. A Reposada was recommended, IIRC.;)

John thanks for the revisit, and your observation of the LN 60 1/2. I agree it's a nice plane.

[Danny Thompson]

Glad to hear you are happy with your decision, John. That's a great plane.