Dowelmax vs. Domino: decision time

[Matt Meiser]

I've been looking at the Domino and the Dowelmax to all-but-replace mortise and tenon joinery which I really hate doing, mostly because I consistently mess it up (too loose, bad alignment, etc.) Since a hobby is supposed to be enjoyable and I don't want to worry aobut it I've decided that for pretty much anything I plan to make a Dowelmax or Domino would be faster and more accurate. I'd pretty much decided on a Dowelmax over a Domino due to cost but now I'm reconsidering because I can afford the Domino too after a good weekend in Las Vegas. Here's what I see--what am I missing?

Domino
Pros--fast, manufacturer has been around forever, pretty much just a new way to do loose tenons which have been an acceptable form of joinery forever, able to be used on stock as small as 1" wide, zero mess.

Cons--cost, both initial and in consumables (though I could make my own "dominos" if I wanted) Complex machine will probably someday require service at some level.

Dowelmax
Pros--pretty fast, cost, consumables available from several sources. Very simple, should last forever.

Cons--small manufacturer that has only been around a few years from what I can tell (small worry about long term support) 2 dowels required to prevent rotation. Potential long term issue with dowel shrinkage (though that is supposed to be taken care of with compressed dowels, but there is no long term testing that I know of.) Somewhat slower. No chip collection.

[Ron Dunn]

I haven't used a Domino, so this is not a comparative comment.

I recently bought a Dowelmax and I'm delighted. To address your specific concerns:

Long term support: There is NOTHING to support. Nothing to break. At worst, you'd lose a spacer block, or perhaps a bushing guide. If you're worried about long term availability, all of these components can be purchased now from their web site.

Somewhat slower: Having not used a Domino, I can't comment on the comparison. I can say that Dowelmax is fast, because the alignments are all done in real time on the jig.

No chip collection: There are no chips! Well, to be 100% accurate, you're just drilling some holes. Even with a cordless drill, all you get is a few spirals of wood from the bit, there are no chips being flung in all directions.

I don't regret the Dowelmax decision at all.

[Brad Olson]

Complex machine will probably someday require service at some level.


For the time being if your Domino gets out of alignment, Festool will re-align the machine for you free of charge. It is also pretty easy to ajust the machine itself following the directions if need be.

I would assume that outside the warranty, Festool would re-align the machine for a nominal fee since Festool's policy is to support all of their machines (even the ones they made 50 years ago).

Consumables are not that much more expensive than high quality dowels, but this depends on the specific sizes you plan use.

The domino also can do more advanced operations than the dowelmax, but it really comes down to your needs. I'd look at the domino manual that has been linked to here before to see if these would benefit you (as well as the links on Bob Marino's website on operation). If these operations are not things you will do, then go with the dowelmax.

[Matt Meiser]

BTW, I should mention that most of the cons are not major concerns--just minor differences that I noted (i.e. dust collection, manufacturer support, etc.) I realize that the Dowelmax shouldn't ever need any service, but 20 years from now when I screw something up...

[Bill Huber]

I really can not comment on the Domino that much, I do know it is one heck of a tool and it does a great job, it better do a good job for the cost.
If I had a custom shop I think there would be no question about it, the Domino would be the one to pick but I don't.

Here are some things about the DowelMax that are really nice:

It is small and takes up very little room and I keep it in a drawer in a small box.

On Sunday you are putting something together and you run out of domoins what can you do..... with the DowelMax you run to HD and get some dowels, now they will not be the really good ones but they do work just fine.

No power cords, I use a cordless drill so there are no cords around anywhere. I can take it anywhere and use it with the cordless drill.

It is easy to use, no settings to change and it will not get out of calibration. There are spacers to add but for the most part there is just put them in and go, its not like you have to do any set up with them.

It is very versatile and can be use in many different ways, on small thing with just one dowel to larger projects with 10 dowels a joint.

I have used it to make all my shop stuff, the TS stand, the router table stand, the planer stand, face frames on all my cabinets and the drawer fronts when I had to put to boards together to get one wide enough. I have had no problems with any of them and they all went together very well.

So I think it all comes down the how much money do you want to spend and how much will you be using it.
The Domino is around $850 to get started I think and the DowelMax is $250, that is $600 that you could use to get a new jointer or other large shop tool.

But bottom line you are the one that knows which one you really want. Lets face it we can all justify just about anything we want if we work at it a little.

Good Luck...

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I think all the above makes a lot of sense. I'll add to that a question. Do you get buyers remorse after you buy expensive things? Are you the type that would buy the Domino and then feel bad you spent so much money on it? Be honest with yourself about this. If so the Dowelmax might seem like a better value for you. If spending some of that hard earned (won ) money is easy then maybe consider the Dowelmax. For me I try not to buy expensive "toys" as I don't sell my stuff; it's a hobby only. I try to keep that in perspective. Good luck on your decision.

[Bill Wyko]

I can't comment on the Dowel max but I did just buy a Domino. 1st, with never using a Domino before, I was able to build face frames using only Dominos and attaching them to the boxes with only Dominos as well. The project went perfectly. 2nd, after using the tool, it seems very well built. I doubt service will be necessary for years to come. 3rd, Dominos are competitively priced. I've seen other loose tenons for more money. As I said before, I've never used a Dowelmax so I can't comment on the use or the expense of one. As far as buyers remorse goes. I only get that when I spend a lot of money on something that doesn't deliver the goods.:) IMHO, the Domino delivers. I did 32 Dominos when making this faceframe and attaching it to the boxes and it took me about 2 hours to be ready for finish, Including sanding. Could someone post a picture of their dowelmax please?

[Bill Wyko]

One more thing. I have a very small shop so space has a high value as well. I'm able to store A CT33 vacuume, a TS75 circular saw, The Domino, A planer, a sander with paper and the box of dominos, all in about 4 square feet of floor space. In addition, the tool in use moves with dust collection and works with all of the tools. I also like the feature that the collector comes on and goes off with what ever machine is in use. Add the value of effency to the ability. Good points from everyone. I hope everyone gets the info to make the decision that's right for them. That's whats great about SMC.:D

[Art Mann]

Hi Matt!

If I commented I would just be repeating Bill Huber's words almost exactly, so I'll let it go at that.

Art

[Matt Meiser]

For the Dowelmax owners? How important is the drill? With my pocket hole jig I find I really need to use a corded drill and even it bogs down a little. If I go with the Dowelmax, should I plan to buy a better corded drill?

BTW Bill, both of your prices are a little low. The difference is more like $700. :eek:

I found a video showing the use of the two here: http://kandt-tools.blogspot.com/ He makes the Dowelmax seem a little easier to use than I imagined.

[Ron Dunn]

Matt, although my regular drill for the Dowelmax is a Makita cordless - 8-10 years old, forget the model - I've used an old egg-beater hand drill just for the hell of it. It worked just fine. Slow, but fine.

In fact, if I could find a good one, I'd buy a small ratchet brace with a 3- or 4-jaw chuck and use that instead of the cordless as my main drill. Then the only sound in the workshop would be metal biting wood.

I've never used a pocket hole jig, but do they impose any drag on the drill? I can only imagine that you're trying to join concrete and rock, not timber :)

[Greg Cole]

Ron,
If you have drag on the drill bit from a pocket hole jib, the only way would be from not having the bit aligned properly with the guide bushing, least I can't see any other reason for it.
I too have been looking at the Domino for awhile now.... not sure if I want to slide on the green n blue slope...... the Neander slope I found last year isn't getting any better traction.
After all the hype & flames here before the donimo's arrival, I was hoping for the same amount of information after the first wave of them hit..... it's been what, a year or close enough and still not "that much" feedback on the boards.

Greg

[Bill Wyko]

Greg, if you are in the Tucson area, you're welcome to come take my Domino for a test drive.:) It's so easy it's sinful.:D I'll try to get some pics of it disassembled. BTW Festool offers great service. I needed a new power plug for my CT33 and I had it in 3 days, no questions asked.

[Jack Hutchinson]

"In fact, if I could find a good one, I'd buy a small ratchet brace with a 3- or 4-jaw chuck and use that instead of the cordless as my main drill. Then the only sound in the workshop would be metal biting wood."

Ron - you can get excellent used braces here: http://www.sydnassloot.com/TOOLS.htm#braces

- Jack

[Al Garay]

This is really easy... start with the DowelMax. If you are not happy, return it for a refund or you can sell it for practically full price.

As far as dust collection, you can connect a shop vac right below the fixture to catch most of the saw dust.

I would love to have the Domino as well but already started with a Dowelmax.

UPDATE: I just checked www.dowelmax.com and it says the no questions asked money back warranty is 60 days. That should be long enough to make a decision.

[Matt Meiser]

What I've found with the pocket hole jig is that the bit tends to bog as it enters the wood. Maybe this is because it gets side-loaded the way it hits the wood.

Another question on the Dowelmax: How do you align the dowelmax if you want to put dowels in the face of a panel. For example, say I want to use dowels for a shelf. At the edge you would use the T-Joint bracket, but how about in the middle? To use the Domino in this application, I know you could just use a fence.

[Greg Funk]

Another question on the Dowelmax: How do you align the dowelmax if you want to put dowels in the face of a panel. For example, say I want to use dowels for a shelf. At the edge you would use the T-Joint bracket, but how about in the middle? To use the Domino in this application, I know you could just use a fence.
You can use a fence as shown on the Dowelmax website.

[Alan Trout]

Matt, Remember you have 30 days return if you are not satisfied with Festools. So I say give the Domino a shot. I have always been of the opinion if you have more options it is always hard to find something you can't do. So you might get the expensive one now and after a year or so go for the Dowelmax.:D

Good Luck

Alan

[Bill Spievak]

I have used both, and I'm not really sure that one is a replacement for the other. That being said, I like the Domino - but I used and like loose tenons for years, so I think it is more a question of having an easier way to use loose tenons than any preference issues.

[Matt Meiser]

Greg, thanks--I just got off the phone with Chris at Dowelmax who pointed me to the instructions. I'd missed them since there wasn't a pretty picture to look at. :D

Alan, Dowelmax has a 60 day return policy too.

Searching the various forums I've seen 1 or two Dowelmax's for sale over the past year or so and 3 or 4 Dominos. Seems like the owners of both aren't giving them up. I'm starting to lean towards the Dowelmax based on cost--seems like there's very little more that the Domino will do over the Dowelmax. Its probably somewhat faster and is less messy, but not by a terrible amount. Plus I can try the Dowelmax for up to 60 days and if I'm not happy return it and get the Domino (or vice-versa for 30 days.)

[Mark Roderick]

I've never used either, but have used a biscuit joiner for many years. Aligning the long edges of boards - a table top, for example - is a common woodworking task. You could do this with a Domino but I don't think you could do it with the doweling tool, at least not without a lot of fuss keeping the hole spacing perfect on both boards. Something to consider as you make the choice.

For that matter, you might just buy a high-quality biscuit joiner, which (I think) will do just about everything the doweling tool will do and is much less expensive than the Domino.

[Greg Cole]

Matt,
Make sure to let us know which one ya wind up with....

"Greg, if you are in the Tucson area, you're welcome to come take my Domino for a test drive.:)"
Thanks Bill, I need another push down a well greased hill. ;) If ya weren't about 1,000 miles from where I hang my hat I'd take ya up on that one....
I will wind up with one, just a matter of when I decide to send Uncle Bob some $$$. Then again, there's a few helping or trying to help with Matt's slide to the next level down the hill.:rolleyes:
Mark,
FWIW, Many Stickley table tops etc were assembled with dowels for alignment according to one of Bob Lang's books in my collection.....


Cheers.
Greg

[Glenn Clabo]

Mark,
This is why you may want to think about using biscuits as an equal to dowels.
http://www.dowelmax.com/test_results.htm

[Mark Roderick]

Yeah, I saw that test but I think it's a bit misleading. As I recall, they compare the strength of one #20 biscut vs. four dowels. If you wanted more strength with the biscuits just use more than one. The Dowelmax looks like a very well-made tool to me, and it certainly looks like the tool to get if you really want to use dowels, but I'm not sure there is any application where the biscuit joiner wouldn't be just as good, and it's a bit more flexible.

[Roy Wall]

Matt -

There is another product that uses 3/8" and 1/2" type dowels - they are loose tenons and the price is about $45 for both templates.....I'll try and look them up for another option to Dowelmax. You can also buy router bits to make your own loose tenons for this product ...trying to remember:confused:

[Matt Meiser]

I actually already have a biscuit jointer, but I wouldn't use it to replace a M&T joint. I'm not saying you shouldn't because each of us work differently, just that I want something beefier than a biscuit.

In a panel glue up, fastener strength is pretty irrelevant as the glue line is generally going to be stronger than the wood itself--the fastener is an alignment tool. And generally I don't use them anyway--I just glue the panels up already aligned because I've run into problems with biscuits in that situation--slight misalignment anyway and cutting into a poorly planned biscuit location for example. I doubt that will change even with a Domino or Dowelmax.

Places where I have used my biscuit jointer are where I couldn't easily do some other kind of joint to join two panels or a panel (plywood or veneered MDF) to solid stock. In those cases I've used biscuits placed about 2" apart and the pieces have come out very solid. If I get the Dowelmax, I'll probably keep the biscuit joiner to keep my options open.

[Kevin Murdock]

Are there any lower cost alternatives to the DowlMax?

Kreg has knock-off items as it's a (relatively) simple jig. I would think that the same would occur for the DowlMax.

[Matt Meiser]

Kevin, as I understand it, there are two major things about the Dowelmax that make it so good. First is that the dowels are closer together than most traditional dowel jigs. Obviously you could copy that at any price point. Second though is that it is highly accurately machined. That would be more difficult to copy, especially in plastic which Kreg seems to be fond of. The plastic works great in the pocket hole jig, but there precision isn't critical.

[frank shic]

matt, have you considered the tradeoff in speed? one plunge of the festool domino vs drilling three holes?

[James Pilchak]

I've never used either, but have used a biscuit joiner for many years. Aligning the long edges of boards - a table top, for example - is a common woodworking task. You could do this with a Domino but I don't think you could do it with the doweling tool, at least not without a lot of fuss keeping the hole spacing perfect on both boards. Something to consider as you make the choice.

For that matter, you might just buy a high-quality biscuit joiner, which (I think) will do just about everything the doweling tool will do and is much less expensive than the Domino.

Why don't you think the Dowelmax will work? While I have only tried to edge join 3' boards, I believe you can do just about any length you like. You can use either indexing method or line up to pencil marks. I think the Dowelmax website has videos showing all this...

[Matt Meiser]

matt, have you considered the tradeoff in speed? one plunge of the festool domino vs drilling three holes?

Yes, but...

In the video link above it really didn't take him long as you don't move the jig to do multiple closely spaced holes. Since I'm not running a commercial shop the fractions of a minute saved aren't a big deal. Both tools are way faster than *I* can do an M&T joint (and trim the tenon--oops shim the tenon--oops trim the tenon :D)

[Ron Dunn]

Even though I think Dowelmax is a great tool, it would be wrong to assume that it can do everything a Domino can do.

Someone alluded to it yesterday (sorry, can't see post on screen) with a reference to Bob Marino's web site. Here is an appropriate URL:

http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/docs/Getting_most_from_Domino.pdf

There is stuff in here that you can't do with a Dowelmax.

That said, I was very surprised by how complex and fiddley were the settings on the Domino. Given that I'm not likely to use the advanced/creative uses to which the Domino was applied, I don't miss the features ... just good to know where the are the differences between the tools.

[Roy Wall]

Matt -

The tool I was thinking of was BEADLOCK.....have you considered this one?

[Matt Meiser]

Yes, I have looked at the Beadlock. It tends to get less than favorable reviews in the forums and in a recent Wood magazine article. People say the tenon stock is expensive, or a pain to make, and the jig moves around making the mortices inaccurate. Then again, its about 1/8th the price of a complete Dowelmax system (if you get the 1/4" guides and a few bags of dowels), which is about 1/2 the price of a complete Domino system (with the assortment of Dominos).

[Bill Wyko]

I would have to say if you are going to do any production, the Domino is the only way to go. Time is money. Correct me if I'm wrong but you can cut the Mortise for a domino in the time you drill one hole using the DM. Using a domino on a flat surface is just clamping 1 piece of wood as backing and do the Domino. It also can be used with a indexing system that lets you cut one Mortise after another w/o having to measure from one to the other. That and a auto centering guide is a 50 dollar option if you buy it with the Domino. IMHO Money well spent.

[Brad Olson]

http://www.bobmarinosbesttools.com/docs/Getting_most_from_Domino.pdf


My recommendation still is make a list of what you want to do, look at the respective manuals and technical websites (for the domino) and then decide which will do the most for you. As mentioned above, there are things that the domino can do quite easily, that are more difficult with a dowel max type jig.

FWIW, don't bother with the beadlock. I thought it was going to be good, but it isn't. More or less a PITA overall.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Yes, I have looked at the Beadlock. It tends to get less than favorable reviews in the forums and in a recent Wood magazine article. People say the tenon stock is expensive, or a pain to make, and the jig moves around making the mortices inaccurate. Then again, its about 1/8th the price of a complete Dowelmax system (if you get the 1/4" guides and a few bags of dowels), which is about 1/2 the price of a complete Domino system (with the assortment of Dominos).

Matt, Have you seen the new Beadlock system? It looks very interesting and I think they have overcome some of the originals' problems.

[Matt Meiser]

Thanks Brad. That's actually what I've been doing. I realized that 99% of the places where I've used M&T joints before are table legs to aprons, bed rails to bed legs, and a door frame or two. The Dowelmax would have worked perfectly in those places, thinking back on how I built each piece.

There are a few places I've used biscuits that the Dowelmax might have been more trouble--places where the slight lateral shift of a Domino or a biscuit would be beneficial becuase I'd never manage to get dowels on multiple pieces perfectly placed. However in these places the strength of a biscuit was really plenty and there's no reason not to continue to use biscuits for those places. The Domino could replace the biscuit jointer, but its not needed to replace it.

When I weigh the pros and cons of each, they really come up about dead even. Sure the Domino has a some advantages, but I'm not likely to use them very often, if at all. The cost difference is really hard to justify. If they were closer in cost or further from each other in basic ability, strenght, and easy of use, my decision probably would be easier. Really I can't find a single user of either system with much bad to say. About the worst complaint I've read is something about the Domino cross stop being of 0.3mm (that's really small.) Even more telling is that its really hard to find a used one of either. I know that I personally tend to just sell a tool that doesn't work the way I believe it should.

Alan, I haven't seen the new Beadlock, but I'm wary of giving it a try without it having proven itself by developing a loyal following like the other two solutions.

[Grant Morris]

How much better is the Dowelmax than say something like this Grizzly doweling jig (link below), and why? I'm not sure why the Dowelmax is so expensive either. Enlighten me please.

http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G1874-Improved-Doweling-Jig/dp/B0000DD0TG/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1201139185&sr=8-1

For the record, I am not affiliated with Amazon or Grizzly in any way shape or form.

[Ron Dunn]

Grant, I haven't used this specific jig, so some of my comments may not be entirely accurate.

Dowelmax is my fourth dowelling jig. The others I have/had are a Haron (thrown away, POS), Record (old but cute), and Veritas (32mm system, not self-centring). Dowelmax is definitely the best so far, and although several times as expensive as the next best (Veritas), I consider it well worth the money.

The Grizzly jig promotes its self-centring nature. It looks like it may be adjustable to other stock placement, but I can't find a manual to explore.

If it is self-centring, this is a limitation. Dowelmax (and others, in the interests of accuracy) allow you to register from the face of the joint. That means that any minor stock irregularities are hidden at the back of the work. An example is joining a panel. Using a self-centring jig you'll have small ridges anywhere two boards aren't exactly the same thickness. With Dowelmax you'll have at least one flat face, and if your stock was good you'll have a perfect panel ready for finishing straight from the glue-up.

Another suspicion, looking at that jig, is that there seems to be a large margin between the end of the jig and the first drill guide. That will limit the stock width that can be dowelled. Actually, Dowelmax doesn't shine in this respect - the minimum width for two dowel pins is around 45mm, for three pins it is around 60mm.

I can't see how this jig does face joining, such as two pieces of MDF at a cabinet corner, or a shelf to a side in something like a bookshelf.

Then there are the small things. Did you see where the Grizzly jig came with four dowel positions, but only two bushes? That means that if you want four dowel holes drilled, you'll be fiddling with bushings. If they're loose enough to move easily you will have slop in the joint. If tight, you'll spend time getting the bush out and moving it to the new position.

One reason for the extreme angular appearance of Dowelmax is that it is designed to cater for wide stock. You can set the position of a row of dowels using spacer blocks, in stock up to 50mm (is that right?) thick. Multiple rows of dowels can be quickly implemented using spacer blocks.

You'll notice that I've quoted my dimensions in metric units. That is because the entire civilised world, with the exception of USA and a couple of tin-pot dictatorships is METRIC. A jig which doesn't support metric units isn't much good to us.

Time to stop, before I overwhelm the reader :)

Ron.

[Joe Mioux]

Matt,

I took possesion of a Domino earlier this month. I have never owned a biscuit jointer or any doweling jigs.

The closest I have is a Kreg jig.

Like you cutting a Mortise and tennon can be done other ways.

I chose the domino because I wanted to use it as a substitute for M&T construction AND AND to be able to align boards for glue up.

You can do this with dowelmax as well, I realize that, but maybe not as quickly, efficiently or as accurately as you can with a Domino.

If you go with the Domino, I see no reason for you to keep the biscuit jointer. That in and of itself would also help ease the pain of the Domino purchase.

One other thing, you will want to buy the Festool assorted domino box with the extra cutters. so your true cost is over $900 with the Domino.

good luck with your decision

joe

[Mike Henderson]

I don't own either but have a question.

If time is not an issue (time would favor using the Domino), what are you going to do with dowels that can't be done some other way. I use cauls to keep boards flat when doing a panel glue-up, and regular mortise and tenon joints. Both are fairly simple, easy, and low cost.

But I only do furniture and not cabinets (like kitchen cabinets) so maybe there's applications I'm not thinking of. I've never encountered a situation where I wished I had a dowel jig.

Mike

[Art Mann]

Pardon me Joe, but if you haven't used a Dowelmax, you probably shouldn't compare its accuracy with the Domino. The Dowelmax is as accurate as any woodworking tool can possibly be. The precision of the hole locations approach those a machinist can achieve with metal. Accuracy is limited much more by the technique of the user and the nature of the material itself than by the jig. This tool does not work like the sloppy and inaccurate things someone above mentioned. If you had the chance to examine one and see how it actually operates you would see what I mean. The Domino may be just as accurate but I don't see how it could possibly be more so.

Based on the movies I have seen, I would have to agree that the Domino is a little quicker and easier in most cases, though I could imagine a few circumstances where the Dowelmax might be more convenient. It is certainly easier to store away and doesn't require a power cord.

[Matt Meiser]

Mike, for me, the answer is that I really hate doing M&T joinery. For mortises, I've done the mortiser and gotten sloppy mortises. I've done the router jig and gotten sloppy mortises. Then I cut my tenons and they are invariably too tight or too lose. To tight lets me trim them--then they aren't square anymore because I tipped the plane. Or made a few too many passes and made them too loose. And it takes 2-3 setups (1 for the mortise, 1 or two for the tenon) to cut them. Basically I want something faster and more fool (meaning me) proof.

After reading about both, I'm convinced both are extremely accurate and the direct comparison video I posted above seems to confirm that.

[Cary Swoveland]

The Dowelmax comes with quite a number of parts--especially if you get the optional drill and sleeves for 1/4" dowels--so you'll want to get or make a box to keep everything together. I built a box that has a place for everything. Here's a pic:

79951

I wish I'd made it a bit bigger, to hold more dowels, shop-made spacers, jigs, etc.

Incidentally, one end of the longish piece of wood resting on the lid is for positioning the drill stop for two different depths; the other end is for holding dowels to be trimmed to a shorter length.

Cary

[Ron Dunn]

Mike, what Matt said about M&T is exactly why I use a Dowelmax. My attempts at M&T were awful. With dowelling I get great joints, fast, which means I get a better feeling from my hobby because I deliver more useful furniture to my family.

Domino can probably do as well. The reasons I didn't buy it, though, were because Dowelmax was:

* Cheaper (3-4 times more expensive to buy a Domino in Australia than to import a Dowelmax)
* Simpler (no alignments, no setups, nothing to get out of shape)
* Quieter (I can use Dowelmax late at night and disturb no-one)
* Cleaner (you don't need dust collection AT ALL with a Dowelmax)

You know, it isn't my intention to push people to buy one, or to degrade another tool. All I'm trying to say is that Dowelmax suited MY work, just as I'm sure Domino suits others.

[frank shic]

that's a nice box, cary. what did you use for the joinery? ;)

[Cary Swoveland]

that's a nice box, cary. what did you use for the joinery? ;)
Yellow glue, pinned with brads.

Cary

[frank shic]

what?!? no dowels??? :eek:

[Chris Zenda]

Both tools are overpriced but the dominos price is obscene IMO. BTW , I recently purchased a dowelmax and am very happy with its capabilities.

[Joe Mioux]

Pardon me Joe, but if you haven't used a Dowelmax, you probably shouldn't compare its accuracy with the Domino. The Dowelmax is as accurate as any woodworking tool can possibly be. The precision of the hole locations approach those a machinist can achieve with metal. Accuracy is limited much more by the technique of the user and the nature of the material itself than by the jig. This tool does not work like the sloppy and inaccurate things someone above mentioned. If you had the chance to examine one and see how it actually operates you would see what I mean. The Domino may be just as accurate but I don't see how it could possibly be more so.

Based on the movies I have seen, I would have to agree that the Domino is a little quicker and easier in most cases, though I could imagine a few circumstances where the Dowelmax might be more convenient. It is certainly easier to store away and doesn't require a power cord.

I stand corrected. thank you.

I should have been a bit more specific to my accuracy with regards to the Domino and not attempt a comparison.

What I didn't say OR What I should have said was.... I like the indexing pins on the Domino. You can cut a slot, use the indexing pin on the Domino in the first slot and cut another slot. If you are making a series of slots down the length of a board, the domino indexes off the previous slot which provides great accuracy.

Joe,

[Matt Meiser]

Joe, Dowelmax provides that capability too. For closely spaced dowels you use an index pin through an already drilled hole. Similar in function to the index pins on the Domino. For more distant spacing there is a bar which goes into the previously drilled hole. Similar in function to the cross stop.

I gave in and ordered the Dowelmax. Honestly for the types of projects I do, there's really not much that I can think of that I can't do with it. In the unlikely event (based on everything I've read) that I'm not happy with it I'll return it under the 60-day money-back guarantee and get a Domino instead.

Cary, that's a great idea. Kind of reminds me of how Festool puts their stuff in the Systainers :p

[Mark Roderick]

Let's say you're gluing up a six-foot long table top. I think the DowelMax could work if you spent the time to index all the dowels with their jig, but I don't think you could rely on pencil marks, the way you could with either a biscuit joiner or the Domino (the Domino allows you to cut the mortises over-sized to accomodate wood movement and small errors in marking). I just think it would take significantly longer using the doweling approach, with no offsetting benefit.

[Thom Sturgill]

You might also consider beadLOCK (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=18092&filter=beadlock) sold by Rockler. It uses a jig similar to dowelmax to create a solid floating tenon and they sell router bits to make your own tenon stock which would let you match species of wood, or pick whatever suits and make them whatever length is needed.

I will need to do several M&T on my next project, so I am in the market too. I like the looks of the Festool, neat idea, just wish it were not so darn expensive. I think I would buy a woodrat for the same money.

I will probably buy a standard mortising machine for fixed M&Ts and use a router jig for floating tenons.

[Bill Wyko]

If you consider the beadlock, compair the price of beadlocks to dominos. If I'm not mistaken, the Dominos are much cheaper. When i was reading the price of beadlocks it didn't specify the quantity for the price but it appeared to be a dollar each.:eek:

[Bob Feeser]

Could someone post a picture of their dowelmax please?

Your every wish is my command.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411H166DJFL._SS400_.jpg

I love the Dowelmax. To me it is all about accuracy. I have not used the Domino. Based on what I hear, I am sure I would love that one too. I wrote a comprehensive review on the Dowelmax on Amazon, they chose it as there most helpful review. You can see it featured on the Dowelmax page here (http://www.amazon.com/Dowelmax-Precision-Engineered-Drill-Guides/dp/B00021ULRE/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1201191462&sr=8-1). You can see there are 16 reviews, and every single one of them is 5 stars. I have not often seen that at all on Amazon. Usually there are mixed reviews, and even on stellar tools, there is at least one person who does not understand the tool, broke it and is sending it back. Dowelmax bats 1000.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

You might also consider beadLOCK (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=18092&filter=beadlock) sold by Rockler. It uses a jig similar to dowelmax to create a solid floating tenon and they sell router bits to make your own tenon stock which would let you match species of wood, or pick whatever suits and make them whatever length is needed.

I will need to do several M&T on my next project, so I am in the market too. I like the looks of the Festool, neat idea, just wish it were not so darn expensive. I think I would buy a woodrat for the same money.

I will probably buy a standard mortising machine for fixed M&Ts and use a router jig for floating tenons.

John,

This is the one I had mentioned earlier in the post, the NEW BEADLOCK SYSTEM. It looks interesting but not as "sexy" as the other contenders. So I don't think that is what people here really desire or want to hear about. :) We all have been brainwashed with the words: "dowelmax" or "domino".

[James Hart]

For decades, I've worked with people to help them get their pricing right. By right, I mean a balance between margins, volume and market share. Every once in a while someone will legitimately invent something. Depending on how easily the idea can be knocked off, the decision falls between taking a high margin for as long as you can, with lower volume, or pricing for a mix of margin and market penetration.

For the life of me, I can't sort out what Festool is thinking. No matter how well made and thought out it is, the margin on the Domino has to be humungous. It's only a matter of time before someone sticks a router motor into a biscuit joiner in just a different enough way to get around whatever patents are in place.

Quality will Always have a niche in any market. Some folks buy more quality than they need for their psyche- so they can either let the money know who's in charge or let others know they have enough to throw around. Some buy it because the utility of the quality really does create a legitimate return on their investment. Each person decides that for themselves. I'm sure Festool is making a fine return on their R&D and the people described above would probably be turned off if they released a slightly less featured model for $400 or $500. Certainly the status seekers would look elsewhere.

I'm waiting for anyone but B&D to release their $250 'biscuit-router'. Then I'll let a couple of dozen 'curious but not at $700' Creekers buy and review it. THEN, I'll jump in.

Sorry for the long post. This has obviously been 'dominating' my thoughts while I'm sitting in my shop chair.

Jim

[Bruce Benjamin]

Matt,

If you go with the Domino, I see no reason for you to keep the biscuit jointer. That in and of itself would also help ease the pain of the Domino purchase.

One other thing, you will want to buy the Festool assorted domino box with the extra cutters. so your true cost is over $900 with the Domino.

good luck with your decision

joe

Just how much do you think used biscuit joiners are selling for these days? The average used biscuit joiner probably isn't going to get much more than $50 or less. That might help buy a a few bags of Dominos I suppose.

Bruce

[Bruce Benjamin]

You'll notice that I've quoted my dimensions in metric units. That is because the entire civilised world, with the exception of USA and a couple of tin-pot dictatorships is METRIC. A jig which doesn't support metric units isn't much good to us.
Ron.

Don't worry, Ron. We, (The U.S.A.) love our, "Uncivilized" method of measurement and will continue to tolerate you, (the rest of the world) anyway. How is it that this backwards country every gets anything built?:rolleyes:

Bruce

[Bill Jepson]

For decades, I've worked with people to help them get their pricing right. <snip>

I'm waiting for anyone but B&D to release their $250 'biscuit-router'. Then I'll let a couple of dozen 'curious but not at $700' Creekers buy and review it. THEN, I'll jump in.

Sorry for the long post. This has obviously been 'dominating' my thoughts while I'm sitting in my shop chair.

Jim

Jim,
I own a couple of Festool products, but I am with you on the Domino. I just can't see any way the price is ligitimate. At half the cost I would have trouble with the thing. This is coming from a guy who has the 5" sander, TS55 saw-rail combo and love them. Price is not an open ended thing for most of us.
Bill J

[Art Mann]

John,

This is the one I had mentioned earlier in the post, the NEW BEADLOCK SYSTEM. It looks interesting but not as "sexy" as the other contenders. So I don't think that is what people here really desire or want to hear about. :) We all have been brainwashed with the words: "dowelmax" or "domino".

Yo Alan,

I am a rabid Dowelmax fan only because I bought one and discovered that it exceeded my expectations, even at the exhorbitant price. I am promoting it not because it is some kind of prestige brand, but because I have been extremely pleased. I am also very interested in the new Beadlock jig and would love to hear reports from actual users. I have also seen a link to a jig called a "Mortise Pal" which reminds me of the Dowelmax, but is used with a router to cut mortises for floating tenons. I think an unbiased magazine article (if such is possible) comparing the various jig techniques of doing wood joinery would be interesting.

I gave up on "sexy" many years ago when I started being more interested in "Fine Woodworking" than "Playboy".;)

[Matt Meiser]

This is the one I had mentioned earlier in the post, the NEW BEADLOCK SYSTEM. It looks interesting but not as "sexy" as the other contenders. So I don't think that is what people here really desire or want to hear about. :) We all have been brainwashed with the words: "dowelmax" or "domino".

Not it at all for me. The problem is that their previous system but numerous accounts was basically a piece of junk. The new one might be the greatest thing in the world, but I'm not buying it to give it a try until its proven itself.

I saw the Mortise Pal too. I don't want a router-based solution though.

[Michael Lutz]

I don't have either. I agree on the domino, being a little to costly. Actually it is less expensive in the US than the rest of the world. For Christmas, I got a 150/3 sander which works good, and may get some of the other products, but I doubt the Domino will be one of them. With the domelmax I could use the same crappy craftsman drill I have had for 20 years that I use for pocket holes. For shop cabinetry, exposed pocket holes is one thing, but in other part of the house I would like something that doesn't show.

The Beadlock Pro kit that Rockler is selling appears to let you drill the mortice and use a paring guide block to pare down the sides of the mortice to make a flat mortice. I guess you could then mill down loose tennon stock to use.

Mike

[Bob Feeser]

For the Dowelmax owners? How important is the drill? With my pocket hole jig I find I really need to use a corded drill and even it bogs down a little. If I go with the Dowelmax, should I plan to buy a better corded drill?

BTW Bill, both of your prices are a little low. The difference is more like $700. :eek:

I found a video showing the use of the two here: http://kandt-tools.blogspot.com/ He makes the Dowelmax seem a little easier to use than I imagined.

Matt,
I use a cordless drill with it. I have a cheapie Makita with plastic gears, and a hefty Milwaukee and they both work well with the Dowelmax. A corded drill is stronger, but the only reason you would need more power is if you decide to not pull the bit to relieve shavings down in the hole. After all they are trapped, so not only are you creating fresh ones, you are having to turn the existing waste into mashed potatos at the same time. I lift the bit out, and then reinsert while drilling with it. Creates a clean hole, with less resistance.

[Charles Green]

I made a similar decision a few months back. I looked at both. Money was a factor but I was willing to wait to buy the Domino if I would have went that way. I went with the Dowelmax based on everyone's reviews and comments on forums about it.

I watched the videos on the website and didn't believe that it could be as easy as it is. The videos are not a gimmick and show the exact speed you can do things. It doesn't take more than a few uses to understand the way it works and be able to knock out joints quickly.

I decided that the only advantage the Domino offered was a little bit of speed. If I did this professionally I would have went with the Domino but being that 10 minutes of differences in an entire table doesn't matter to me that much.

Good luck with whichever you decide. I don't think you will regret either one.