Coffee Table Top Update

[Jason Scott]

Hey all,

Well I just wanted to thank Todd Bin on here for suggesting to go to the cabinet shop and have it drum sanded. The guy worked with me a while gave me some pointers, and only charged me 20 bucks. The table top is now perfect and dead flat, (hopefully it stays that way). He said b/c it was solid wood, I might have problems with movement and suggested some walnut veneered ply for future tops. Most importantly though, while I was explaining to him what happened, I said, "I worked on the inlay for hours and I still have a small gap here and there, it really sucks, I know", and he told me that it was fine, in fact he said that if he did the same thing for someone he would charge them a fortune and that it was the same "quality" wise that the pros in his shop turn out. I was taken back, it dawned on me that if a professional custom shop owner/craftsman said that, then it might be true. So moral of this story, I have got to ease up off my own ass and enjoy the quality of work I do, and stop beating myself up. Anyway just wanted to post another pic of the now "fixed" top thanks to the owner of Balz Custom Woodworking here in Louisville. I can't wait to see the unique grain pattern in the walnut when finished, and the leaf is made of curly maple, should be a nice contrast.

[Jim Becker]

You'll not have problems with wood movement if you construct your piece to accomodate it!

VERY nice job on the inlay, Jason. It looks great.

[Jason Scott]

Thanks Jim!

[keith ouellette]

Glad it worked out Scott. Like i told you I had seen two different inlays done by guys that have been doing wood working for years and they both had gaps in them.
The table looks great.

[Greg Cole]

Jason,
Looks great. You'll definately like the 2 diff species in contrast when finished..... and maybe ya didn't learn something by osmosis as I hinted at, but you still learned from the pro's (ya learned ya can do what they do & do it well). If you have long arms, you can reach around and pat your own back....LOLOL
So, when can we see the top on the rest o the table??

Greg

[Todd Bin]

Great! I'm glad the $20 was worth it for you.

A word on wood movement. I'm sure you know this but don't glue the top to the base. Use the metal figure 8's with screws in a few places or you can make your own track usng wood. David Mark's uses the figure 8's and Norm makes his own using wood.

Please post some pictures of the table once you get it all assembled and finished. Do you have any ideas on what finish you might use? Watco, or General finishes Seal-a-Cell, or Shellac or ???

[Jason Scott]

Jason,
Looks great. You'll definately like the 2 diff species in contrast when finished..... and maybe ya didn't learn something by osmosis as I hinted at, but you still learned from the pro's (ya learned ya can do what they do & do it well). If you have long arms, you can reach around and pat your own back....LOLOL
So, when can we see the top on the rest o the table??

Greg,

Thanks for the comments. I am building the aprons/legs this week, but I am handcutting the dovetails so I don't know how long that will take me. I am going slow.


Great! I'm glad the $20 was worth it for you.

A word on wood movement. I'm sure you know this but don't glue the top to the base. Use the metal figure 8's with screws in a few places or you can make your own track usng wood. David Mark's uses the figure 8's and Norm makes his own using wood.

Please post some pictures of the table once you get it all assembled and finished. Do you have any ideas on what finish you might use? Watco, or General finishes Seal-a-Cell, or Shellac or ???

Todd, going to finish with shellac I think. I did my other end table for the first time with Zinsser 3lb cut which I reduced to 1lb and put 5 coats on. It came out great, so I am going with that again I think. As far as the top goes, I have always used pocket screws on all my tables, is that an ok method to use? Will post pictures as soon as I get a little farther.

[Greg Cole]

Jason,
Assuming you are referring to pocket screws to attach the top? I'd recommend sending a retailer (get mine from Rockler) a few bucks for the figure 8 style connectors for that task.... I've used a few methods but these are the easiest and are plenty secure.
G'luck on the hand cut DT's.... I'm plenty proficient with a mallet & mortise chisel these days, but haven't gone to hand cut DT's...... yet.
If you are looking for options on finishes... I'd recommend Jeff Jewitt's book. I read it twice last month & have definately stepped up my finishing aspirations & expectations a couple notches.
The legs n aaprons walnut too?

Cheers.
Greg

[Jason Scott]

Jason,
Assuming you are referring to pocket screws to attach the top? I'd recommend sending a retailer (get mine from Rockler) a few bucks for the figure 8 style connectors for that task.... I've used a few methods but these are the easiest and are plenty secure.
G'luck on the hand cut DT's.... I'm plenty proficient with a mallet & mortise chisel these days, but haven't gone to hand cut DT's...... yet.
If you are looking for options on finishes... I'd recommend Jeff Jewitt's book. I read it twice last month & have definately stepped up my finishing aspirations & expectations a couple notches.
The legs n aaprons walnut too?

Cheers.
Greg
Greg,

Yep, in walnut also, it will be similar to my end table in another post, but the aprons will have a gentle curve to them as well. Each piece I seem to change a little, even though it is suppose to be a matching set, but that is b/c I learn along the way and fix things that I wish I "wouldn't" have done on the previous. I think they will all look very similar, but have very distinct differences up close.

Jason

[Todd Bin]

Shellac would definitley look nice. Are you going to be using the dining room table to eat at or is it just for a formal dining room for your wife to look at. If you are going to use it daily the shellac is going to be a lot of long term maintanence.

[Jason Scott]

Shellac would definitley look nice. Are you going to be using the dining room table to eat at or is it just for a formal dining room for your wife to look at. If you are going to use it daily the shellac is going to be a lot of long term maintanence.

Todd,

Actually this is the coffee table, not the dining table, although I plan on making one of those too :p The table will be used, but only by my wife and I and we are pretty careful around the handmade stuff. I have only used two finishes before, and that is Minwax tung-oil finish (I like the way it looks) and shellac, which I love. I know that water stains shellac as well as alcoholic beverages are not good.

[Don Bullock]

Jason that looks fantastic. I'm glad that you got the problem resolved. That sure was $20 well spent to same all your fantastic work. Yes, stop finding fault with your work too. There are many, including me who have learned something from you on this top. I appreciate the post.

[Bob Feeser]

Jason,
I would finish the top, get it sealed as early as possible. Exposed the air, especially after a fresh sanding allows the wood to breathe, and it may do so unevenly. Also if one side was sanded and not the other, there is a difference in moisture levels that could cause problems. When refinishing, whatever you do to one side, do the same to the other. Thick finishes on one side, and thin breathable ones on the other is only inviting bowing. I really am amazed at how great wood looks, when you take the surface down into fresh material, then trap what you see with a clear finish. All kind of subtle colors come out. Left exposed to the air, or even worse the sunlight, the subtle vibrant colors fade, and you are left with a piece that is not as lively. I know there are other considerations, like how do you support the top while refinishing if it isn't already on the base. But if you have some of the underside wood unfinished, due to surfaces that are inaccessible, that can contribute to uneven wood movement.
Here I go, I don't even know you, and I am worried about your table top moving on you. :rolleyes: The piece looks great. The inlay makes it special. Looking forward to seeing the pictures when it is finished. That top has to look dynamite with a nice finish bringing out all that beautiful grain.

[Jason Scott]

Jason,
I would finish the top, get it sealed as early as possible. Exposed the air, especially after a fresh sanding allows the wood to breathe, and it may do so unevenly. Also if one side was sanded and not the other, there is a difference in moisture levels that could cause problems. When refinishing, whatever you do to one side, do the same to the other. Thick finishes on one side, and thin breathable ones on the other is only inviting bowing. I really am amazed at how great wood looks, when you take the surface down into fresh material, then trap what you see with a clear finish. All kind of subtle colors come out. Left exposed to the air, or even worse the sunlight, the subtle vibrant colors fade, and you are left with a piece that is not as lively. I know there are other considerations, like how do you support the top while refinishing if it isn't already on the base. But if you have some of the underside wood unfinished, due to surfaces that are inaccessible, that can contribute to uneven wood movement.
Here I go, I don't even know you, and I am worried about your table top moving on you. :rolleyes: The piece looks great. The inlay makes it special. Looking forward to seeing the pictures when it is finished. That top has to look dynamite with a nice finish bringing out all that beautiful grain.

Bob,

Thanks, although you are right, this thing bows overnight, not much but a little, so I clamp it down flat, sometimes it even bows back the other way slightly, is this normal? I am a newbie with wood movement, but this thing looks to me like it is trying to become a potatoe chip at times. I have it clamped lightly to my workbench. There is no sunlight down there but like I said it is trying to move, but I have no choice as I only have limited time to work on it so I am not sure what to do. I did get the front and back aprons milled today, hopefully tomorrow I can get the side aprons done and start the dovetails.

[scott spencer]

That's an impressive piece of work Jason! I'd love to see the finished pics!

[Michael McCoy]

Jason,
You are probably adding to the problem by clamping it to your bench. One side is exposed to the air and the other is exposed to none.

[Jason Scott]

Thanks Scott,

Thought I'd post a picture of the aprons, got finished milling them today, will be cutting the dovetails this weekend and then putting a getle curve in them.

[Bob Feeser]

Jason,
The depth of the question is vast actually, because there are so many contributing factors. Some of the more profound influences are;

Lay a flat piece of wood, especially one that has been freshly surfaced on top of a table, or another flat surface, and one side is exposed to the air, and the other side is not. So the exposed side loses moisture, and the underside laying flat on the table does not breath, therefore does not give up as much as it's moisture.
Moisture content in wood has such a strong effect on wood they use it to mine granite in days of old. They would drill deep holes along a line, deep into a granite wall, slide wood dowels down into the holes, then pour in water. Wah lah, the granite separates/cracks along the "fault" line where the holes are drilled. So controlling moisture content in wood, by sealing it with finish, or stacking wood on top of one another is the main way to prevent wood warping.
You can force straighten wood with the use of heat, then cooling. The best way to keep it straight is to control moisture.
Some people control moisture on freshly planed/surfaced wood by wrapping it in Saran Wrap/clear plastic. I simply lay it on a flat, in this case large outfeed table, which is totally flat, then stack other flat boards on top of it.
Of course the sure shot sealer is to wrapped it in a waterproof finish. That is why I suggested you finish the top if possible on both sides, which is an unusual thing to do. Not knowing if you were going to spend a bunch of time before finishing the base, and assembling, then refinishing, a couple of base coats, of a urethane on both sides is a nice way to seal it in. Even with that, it seems that moisture can vary, but not like a sponge with bare exposed wood.
I know you are not in a sunlit basement, but just to round it out, sunlight on a piece of wood on one side, will reduce the moisture on the exposed side, and not so on the other side. My sawyer, when I asked him what to do to protect the wood while it cures, he said, "Just keep it out of the sunlight"
Some of the other considerations are the forces in the wood when fresh cut. The composition of the wood fibers immediately above, in the middle of, and below a branch, vary in density and strength, then when cut open, without the opposing balanced area attached, the wood moves. This is something that becomes immediately apparent when ripping wood. Did you ever rip a piece of wood, and it is curling as you cut it. That is especially profound with force/kiln dried wood, especially when it has not had time to age after force drying.
Pertaining to forces, imagine holding up a long branch, that weighs hundreds of pounds, and you have to keep it straight. Muscles above the branch would be pulling up, and below pushing up, or keeping additional stiffness, so not to flex. This type of force is my conjecture based on Dr Bruce Hoadley's book, "Understanding Wood" He also goes into moisture problems, and does an in depth job of explaining moisture and it's behavior. He is one of the few that have a doctorate in wood. At times it may seem a bit too scientific, but it has helped me to understand a lot about wood, and it's movement.To tell you the truth, wood is a crazy medium to work with. I came from automotive, when you sculpt a fender, and come back the next day, it is still accurately sculpted. With wood, you spend all of this time getting your pieces cut perfectly, then you come back in the morning, and everything has moved. In a word; frustrating. Be sure and stack your freshly planed, and/or cut pieces, on top of one another on a flat surface, then take a piece of scrap wood to place on the top one as well. In effect you are keeping the wood from breathing, and possibly releasing moisture content unevenly from each side. Stacked wood, with just the thin edges exposed, will keep pretty stable for weeks that way, but the best bet is to cut and assemble, locking in the angles and dimensions, and then finish it, to stop the moisture from irregular evaporation.

Bob,

Thanks, although you are right, this thing bows overnight, not much but a little, so I clamp it down flat, sometimes it even bows back the other way slightly, is this normal? I am a newbie with wood movement, but this thing looks to me like it is trying to become a potatoe chip at times. I have it clamped lightly to my workbench. There is no sunlight down there but like I said it is trying to move, but I have no choice as I only have limited time to work on it so I am not sure what to do. I did get the front and back aprons milled today, hopefully tomorrow I can get the side aprons done and start the dovetails.

[Todd Bin]

Bob,

Thanks, although you are right, this thing bows overnight, .


Did you sand both sides? One of the other posters mentioned this and it is important. If one side is sanded and the other is not then the side that is sanded can absorb a lot more moisture than the other and then it is uneven and will bow.

[Jason Scott]

Todd, no I didn't, but when I took it to the cabinet shop he did run the back side through his sander...I didn't realize that, I have never done it before and will start from now on...Since I have unclamped it from the table and it is setting on top of the aprons so it should be getting air more evenly now...