How accurate is a borg square?

[Greg Muller]

All,
I keep seeing how the fine woodworkers here are using Starrett guaranteed squares, engineers squares, and straightedges that are guaranteed to be accurate to .001".

My question is, how accurate is a typical metal 12" or 24" aluminum or steel framers square from the borg? :confused:

Greg

[Mike Marcade]

I'm thinking they should be square easily within +/- 1/4". I wouldn't expect a whole lot better. ;)

[Michael Merrill]

WOW, not sure that I'd consider 1/4" off square!!!!! No disagreement just WOW.

[Greg Muller]

AAGGGHHH!!
They GOTTA be better than +/- 1/4"!!
If someone with a good Starrett and a borg framers square would compare the two, I would appreciate it.

I was thinking that it may be off .05" or .075" at the most...

[Greg Sznajdruk]

If you buy a square at the BORG take a pencil with you. Select a few squares then go to the Table Saw area. Set the square on a saw top and draw a line. Flip the square, line it up to within a 16th of an inch and draw another line, if the square is accurate then the two lines will be parallel. If the lines are not parallel then the square is not accurate. If you try 3 to 5 squares you usually can find one that is acceptable.

Greg

[Todd Bin]

It doen't matter -- You will be assimilated.

I really don't know. I had one and after screwing up a couple of boards with it I quickly got a starett. How I found out it was not square was I marked a line to cross cut with it. It just did not look right so I got out my trusty Incra square and man was the HD piece of crap off. It was off 1/8" across an 11" board.

If you are really interested. Buy the starett from woodcraft and if you don't like it just take it back.

[Larry Browning]

Greg,
Those cheap plastic triangle squares you can find at an office supply store are pretty accurate. Pick up 1 or 2 of those and go to the borg and check them yourself. If you get 2 you can check them by placing them back to back on something that you know is flat (like a small piece of plate glass or granite counter top) if they touch all along where they meet, they are square.

There are all sorts of ways to check squares for square. Just do a search here on squares.

[Jason Roehl]

If you're talking a framing square, it really doesn't matter how far off it is. Learn to adjust it. Do the routine of drawing a line perpendicular to the edge of a table, flipping and drawing another line from the same starting point. If this shows the square to be less than 90º, take a nail set or punch of some sort and a hammer and give it a little ding on the inside of the corner to "open it up". Check it again. If the square is greater than 90º, give it a little ding towards the outside of the corner.

[Art Mann]

I have been in Lowes and checked a number of framing squares against each other and they are not all the same. At least some of them have to be wrong enough to matter.

[John Canfield]

If you buy a square at the BORG take a pencil with you. Select a few squares then go to the Table Saw area. Set the square on a saw top and draw a line. Flip the square, line it up to within a 16th of an inch and draw another line, if the square is accurate then the two lines will be parallel. If the lines are not parallel then the square is not accurate. If you try 3 to 5 squares you usually can find one that is acceptable.

GregThat is exactly the routine I went through a couple of weeks ago at a big box DIY except I carted the squares to a sheet of MDF. I tried two aluminum squares and they were both off. Next went to a steel square and WOW - it was actually 90 degrees :o. (Or close enough for woodworking - it might have been +- part of a degree, but that didn't matter.)

-=John=-

[Michael Schwartz]

I would take a cheap $5.00 engineers square with me and check with that.

I have an 12" empire combo square from home depot I use for carpentry that I checked to my 12" starett combo square and it was pretty good.

[Mike Cutler]

All,
I keep seeing how the fine woodworkers here are using Starrett guaranteed squares, engineers squares, and straightedges that are guaranteed to be accurate to .001".

My question is, how accurate is a typical metal 12" or 24" aluminum or steel framers square from the borg? :confused:

Greg

Greg
Most of the time the Starrett stuff, and the like, is being used for initial machine setup. and verification of angle prior to cuts. At least I do.
A framing square should be pretty good, but we all have to realize that they are generally used for "rough work". They can be used effectively on bigger projects, but for smaller stuff I have a set of Incra squares, and plastic drafting triangles by Staedler. ( Cheap and accurate).
I have a "borg quality" framing square. The inside is close enough to being a perfect square. The outside is ~1/8' off as measured along the hypotoneus(sp?). One or both outside edges must have a very minute taper along the outside edge. I also have one of the smaller "speed squares" from the borg, It's pretty good too.
I don't do the "flip the square method" That method requires that the reference edge be known absolutely dead straight with no deviation along a line twice the length of the inside of the square. MDF is probably good enough to check one, but Pythagoreans Theoreom still works the best for me. You just need a one good ruler, and every woodworker need one of those.;)

[Lance Norris]

ALWAYS check any square with one you trust. I have 2 Starretts and I have taken the 6" with me. I have a 12" Swanson I got at Lowes and its perfect. I also have a Stanley framing square and its perfect also. I checked both before I bought them. I had to dig to get a good Swanson. All the Stanleys were good.

[Joe Mioux]

If you're talking a framing square, it really doesn't matter how far off it is. Learn to adjust it. Do the routine of drawing a line perpendicular to the edge of a table, flipping and drawing another line from the same starting point. If this shows the square to be less than 90º, take a nail set or punch of some sort and a hammer and give it a little ding on the inside of the corner to "open it up". Check it again. If the square is greater than 90º, give it a little ding towards the outside of the corner.

Jason has the correct answer.

You can buy a framing square that is truly square but once you drop it, the square may not be "square" anymore.

A nail set to open or close the square will do the trick.

joe

[Jared Cuneo]

I have Starretts and a Lowes 12" combo.

The Lowes square is square, however, the ruler is punched steel so the actual edge of the ruler is not exactly linear.....When you put it up against something, the edge is 'ragged'....so no matter how square it is, good luck lining it up....

I swore I'd not use my Starrett or engineers square (6") daily, but to be honest, they are the most used tools in my shop.

Do yourself a favor and get a Starrett, or at the very least, a Woodcraft high end one....they are almost as good as Starretts.....the basis of everything you do is good machine setup and well milled stock.....and that starts with a good square....

JC

[glenn bradley]

1/4" may be an exaggeration but, as Jason said; they are easily 'tuned'. Don't expect the sides to be parallel. I have one 'tuned' and marked for outside edge and one for inside edge. Having done that, I trust them and they have not let me down.

[Steve Roxberg]

All,
I keep seeing how the fine woodworkers here are using Starrett guaranteed squares, engineers squares, and straightedges that are guaranteed to be accurate to .001".

My question is, how accurate is a typical metal 12" or 24" aluminum or steel framers square from the borg? :confused:

Greg

I would venture to say that everyone is different. But you can easily test one by placing it on an edge and drawing a line. Flip the square and draw the same line. The difference is twice the error of the square.

[Curt Harms]

I have this, stated tolerance. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32587&cat=1,42936,42944
'course I think I paid around $30. There's also the "stand 'em up against each other" trick. Find a flat surface-not a small trick in a borg. Take the whole stack of squares to the flat surface. Stand them on the shorter leg one leg facing one way and the other leg facing the other. If the vertical surfaces match one another, either the two squares have matched complementary error or they're square.

[Rod Sheridan]

My 24 inch aluminum square is only square on the inside, as the arm isn't parallel.

The square was out 3/64" at the end of the long arm when I purchased it on the inside, 1/64" on the outside.

I then adjusted it by peening so that the inside is as square as you can get by self calibration.

Regards, Rod.

[Greg Mann]

As good as the Starrets are, and I have and use one as a woodworker, but as a machinist also I need to say I almost never use one in that role. This might sound like hearesy but I believe the machinist square has been rendered almost useless in today's machining world. Square corners and such are done routinely with two axis movements on CNCs at levels of accuracy we need to measure in other ways, like on coordinate measuring machines for example. As far as using the Starret to check another square, go ahead, but you will only be able to verify accuracy for the length of the shortest leg, which is about four inches along the Starret head. Any length longer than that will require another technique and there are several that have been suggested already that should give better results over longer lengths than even a 'perfect' Starret can assure.

[Chuck Lenz]

All,
I keep seeing how the fine woodworkers here are using Starrett guaranteed squares, engineers squares, and straightedges that are guaranteed to be accurate to .001".

My question is, how accurate is a typical metal 12" or 24" aluminum or steel framers square from the borg? :confused:

Greg
Your kidding me right ? it's a FRAMEING square. Frameing houses is not fine woodworking, unless your building some elaborate timber framed structure, and even then I doubt you need machinist accuracy.

[Michael Gibbons]

Starrett stuff for the most part are the most accurate tools you can buy. Their straightedges are are within .0002 per foot. I beleive the same goes for their engineers squares but you pay handsomely. I think they have a 24" eng squares but your looking at $500. I ahve a Lee Valley framing square and it seems pretty accurate.

[Jason Roehl]

Your kidding me right ? it's a FRAMEING square. Frameing houses is not fine woodworking, unless your building some elaborate timber framed structure, and even then I doubt you need machinist accuracy.

Yeah, I've worked in plenty of houses where the framers obviously didn't care how accurate their squares work. I've also been in houses where the framers did care, and there is a big, noticeable difference. Is machinist accuracy needed? No, but if a framing square is off by 1/32" over its length, that could translate to 2" error over the length of a 64' long house...

[Chuck Lenz]

Yeah, I've worked in plenty of houses where the framers obviously didn't care how accurate their squares work. I've also been in houses where the framers did care, and there is a big, noticeable difference. Is machinist accuracy needed? No, but if a framing square is off by 1/32" over its length, that could translate to 2" error over the length of a 64' long house...
Who squares up a house with a frameing square ? As mentioned before by other posters, there is a proceedure to square up a frameing square.

[Greg Muller]

Yeah, I kinda knew this was going to get a few people who were snobbish about a "framing square's" accuracy.

I better put this in perspective;

A neighbor and I were in my shop and I had NYW running on the TV (via TIVO- the best gift ever) and he noted that Norm was building his sled using a framing square. I commented that he probably checked the square for accuracy before using it to build the jig.

We both got to wondering what the manufacturers' specs on a framing square would be.

I thought someone might know...

[Chuck Lenz]

Yeah, I kinda knew this was going to get a few people who were snobbish about a "framing square's" accuracy.

I better put this in perspective;

A neighbor and I were in my shop and I had NYW running on the TV (via TIVO- the best gift ever) and he noted that Norm was building his sled using a framing square. I commented that he probably checked the square for accuracy before using it to build the jig.

We both got to wondering what the manufacturers' specs on a framing square would be.

I thought someone might know...
Call or write the manufacturer. I'm sure Norm knows how to square up a frameing square.

[Frank Carrino]

Well I have been on more then a few job sites over the years and the ever popular "framer's" square is NEVER used for framing and squaring walls. Now it is a great tool for stairs and rafters but I have never used nor seen anyone else use a framing square to "Frame". For that we use levels, tape measures (3,4,5) and chalk lines. That being said when it comes to finish carpentry and woodworking it has its place. I agree with the others here the flip and check for square is a great and "accurate enough" way of buying a BORG square. Now if you need a combination square avoid the BORG like the plague! Buy a Starret or other high end combo and save yourself years of future hassle!

[Eric Gustafson]

I always thought the framing square was useful because it can be adjusted with a hammer and a center punch. Measure by drawing a line and flipping the square, then bang away with the punch and hammer until it is dead on.