Japanese Handsaw Selection

[Dan Racette]

I was PM'ing Pam and wanted to get some general opinions about upgrading my Dozuki. I was wondering what people's experiences have been with resharpenable handsaws, what dozuki they would recommend and where people go to get their saws resharpened. I am looking for a stiffer blade and a little bit tougher teeth than the inexpensive impulse hardended teeth on the replaceable blade Z-saw that I have now.

Thanks,

Dan

[Kevin Adams]

Dan--

Lots of good info over on the japanesetools.com forum that will give you enough info to make your head (and wallet!) spin! Personally, I have both the disposable and handmade saws and they both serve a purpose. The LV saw is very nice as are the ones from toolsforworkingwood. It's really just a matter of your experience level/intended use vs. how much you want to spend. If you are wanting to cut dovetails, a rip-style saw might be the way to go. For many (including professionals), the disposables are just fine.

Good luck,
Kevin

P.S. It's just as easy to break a tooth from a handmade saw as it is from a disposable one, except the personal stress each causes is different!

[Dan Racette]

The added stress! I think you make a great point there, Kevin!

I had pretty much settled on a Ryoba Chuyemon Brand from Hida Tool. For a dozuki, short of walking into some fictitious store and sawing wood with the following, I'd like to know more about these tools from people's first hand experience:

From Tools for working wood:
Toshio Odate both types of Dozuki's
their Rip Dozuki and deluxe model

The LV "professional" dozuki

Another Dozuki from which someone has first hand experience, disposable or resharpenable blade, and they have a passion for its use.
Who people use as a metate, or sharpener of the saw.

[Joel Goodman]

FWW had a review of Dozuki s about 5 months ago -- perhaps someone has the date and / or what the conclusion was.

[Dan Racette]

I have that issue. I was looking for first hand ownership accounts.

[David Tiell]

Dan,
I have the Dozuki saw (replaceable blade) sold by Bridge City Tool Works and really like it. It seems comfortable in my hand and I don't seem to have a problem controlling it. THe blades have lasted me pretty well between changes. That said, I just the other day posted about wanting to try a western saw just to see the difference between the two.

[Dale Osowski]

I use a Mitsukawa Rip Dozuki. Excellent saw at affordable price. Very thin kerf and fast cuts in hardwood. Mine is from Misugi but you can also get them from Hida.

Dale

[Maurice Metzger]

Hi Dan,

There are a lot of nice Japanese saws out there. I have been using a 9-1/2" Hishiki Rip Backsaw from Japan Woodworker (Product ID: 07.116.240) that has worked well. It has a replaceable blade.

Lately however I have been using a "Traditional Kataba ripcut saw" from Dieter Schmid - Fine Tools (www.fine-tools.com (http://www.fine-tools.com)) which the web site says is made by "Hishika" - not sure if that's the same manufacturer as "Hishiki". The blade isn't replaceable. Now this saw is not a backsaw, it doesn't have a spine to hold the blade straight. But I find that allows me to eyeball my line very well. When you first pick up the saw the blade flexes around a bit, but when actually sawing it doesn't seem to matter.

Not sure what I'll do when it needs sharpening, I don't know of anyone who sharpens Japanese saws.

HTH,
Maurice

["Gary Brewer"]

Dan: The article in FWW #188 rated the Woodcraft #12f27 as the best overall and best value for the all-purpose japanese saws. It is on sale right now at Woodcraft for $29.99 ( normally $42 ). It is also the saw Lonnie Bird requires his students to buy. I have it and use it and it is a very good saw. Even at list price it is one of the cheapest of the Japanese style saws which can cost up to $270 for saws that are not as good ( according to FWW ). As an added bonus there is free shipping at Woodcraft for order of $75 or more. A good excuse to buy some extras is you need one.
Gary

[Pam Niedermayer]

Gary, I wouldn't consider FWW as an authority on Japanese tools.

Pam

["Gary Brewer"]

Pam: I didn't say they were an expert on "japanese tools" nor did I day they were an expert on "Japanese saws". Joel mentioned the FWW article on the saws so I looked it up for this thread. But they did do an evaluation in comparing many different brands which could be useful. Just providing information FWIW.
Gary

[Kevin Adams]

Dan--

I have a Chuyemon Ryoba from Hida and it's a nice saw, but I don't use it much. I've become more a fan of the single edge saws. The Mitsukawa Rip Dozuki (also from Hida) is a nice saw for the money, but I really doubt there is any difference between that and the LV/Toolsforworkingwood ones. Again, there is some very amazing work done by professionals using the disposable blade saws (in fact, many prefer them at least for their traveling kit as they don't have to worry about them). Not what you probably want to hear, but the skill using the saw really does make a difference vs. the saw itself (obviously within the context of the saws we have discussed). Now when you get into some much larger scale work, that is where the handmade saws may come into play since the disposables do have limits.

Hope this helps.

Kevin

[Danny Thompson]

In the 2007 "Tools and Shops" issue, Fine Woodworking published an article called "Tool Test: Japanese Dovetail Saws" by Charles Durfee:

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=27682

Their top-rated saw, aside from the replaceable blade Dozuki-Z was a resharpen saw called the Deluxe 240mm Rip Dozuki Saw from Tools for Working Wood:

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-JS340&Category_Code=TSJ

It also gets a fine recommendation from Chris Schwarz, Executive Editor of Popular Woodworking magazine.

[Hank Knight]

I use a Mitsukawa Rip Dozuki. Excellent saw at affordable price. Very thin kerf and fast cuts in hardwood. Mine is from Misugi but you can also get them from Hida.

Dale

Like Dale, I bought a Mitsukawa Rip Dozuki for dovetails. I liked it so much I bought a Mitsukawa crosscut dozuki. The saws are a little expensive for my budget, but they are great saws. The crosscut has become my go-to saw for precise cuts. Unfortunately, I dinked my vise with it on my very first cut and broke a tooth. :( But it has so many teeth, what's one more or less? I have always been a push saw advocate, but the Mitsukawas are converting me to a pull saw fan.

FYI, Misugi Designs is no longer in business. Hida has taken over much of Kayoko's line and you can order Mitsukawa saws from them.

Hank

[Dan Racette]

Thanks for the info on the Chuyemon and the Mitsukawa. To those that have the Mitsukawa, have you bought the model filed labelled as "hardwood" or the other model, not labelled as "hardwood". Any leads on a professional saw filer?

I am totally not against a saw that has a replaceable blade, if it is pleasant to use. Sounds like there are definitely some out there.

Thanks for all the responses. Pam has echoed my feelings about FWW. I posted, because I didn't feel that the article was giving me the first hand accounts of ownership that I was looking for vs. the testing they were doing.

[Hank Knight]

I use a Mitsukawa Rip Dozuki. Excellent saw at affordable price. Very thin kerf and fast cuts in hardwood. Mine is from Misugi but you can also get them from Hida.

Dale

Like Dale, I bought a Mitsukawa Rip Dozuki for dovetails. I liked it so much I bought a Mitsukawa crosscut dozuki. The saws are a little expensive for my budget, but they are great saws. The crosscut has become my go-to saw for precise cuts. Unfortunately, I dinked my vise with it on my very first cut and broke a tooth. :( But it has so many teeth, what's one more or less? I have always been a push saw advocate, but the Mitsukawas are converting me to a pull saw fan.

FYI, Misugi Designs is no longer in business. Hida has taken over much of Kayoko's line and you can order Mitsukawa saws from them.

Hank

Edit: Several people have mentioned the dozuki sold by Joel at Tools for Working Wood. I ordered that saw before I bought my Mitsukawa crosscut. I found the blade to be almost paper thin and very delicate. Mine developed a kink the first time I used it (I apparently have an issue with Japanese saws the first time out). I was able to straighten the blade, but it now hangs in my saw till unused. The Mitsukawa has a very thin kerf too, but it is a more robust saw (if one can use the term "robust" to describe a Japanese saw). I find it much easier and comfortable to use than Joel's saw; and, as I mentioned above, it is very precise.

Joel sells a Mitsukawa dozuki in addition to his Deluxe Dozuki, but it is a higher end saw than the Mitsukawa saws from Hida and significantly more expensive. I'm sure it's a very nice saw, but I've never used one so I can't speak to it. Mine is the cheaper model now available from Hida.

[Dan Racette]

that is exactly the kind of helpful feedback I would be looking for. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Dan

[Wilbur Pan]

FYI, Misugi Designs is no longer in business. Hida has taken over much of Kayoko's line and you can order Mitsukawa saws from them.

Which Mitsukawa dozuki is the one that Misugi Designs was offering? The Hida Tool website lists two of them, one is less expensive and is labeled a "hardwood" saw.

[Dale Osowski]

Which Mitsukawa dozuki is the one that Misugi Designs was offering? The Hida Tool website lists two of them, one is less expensive and is labeled a "hardwood" saw.


It would be this one, D-MK-118-210 210 mm $137.00. Here is mine cutting 2.25" Walnut.

Dale

[Dan Racette]

Dale,

Have you had the opportunity to have it resharpened yet?

Dan

[Dale Osowski]

Dale,

Have you had the opportunity to have it resharpened yet?

Dan

No, not yet. I use it often and it still cuts like day one.

Dale

[Dan Racette]

That is encouraging to hear. How many years have you been cutting with it?

[Dale Osowski]

That is encouraging to hear. How many years have you been cutting with it?

Pretty much use it daily for the last 5 months.

Dale

[Hank Knight]

Wilbur and Dan,

What Dale said on all counts.

My Mitsukawa crosscut dozuki is the Hida D-MK-117-180 or the D-MK-117-210, both sell for $172.00. I think mine is the 180 mm saw. I've had my rip saw for two years and it's cutting just as well as it cut on day one. I've only had the crosscut for about 6 or 7 months, but it's sharp as new too.

Hank

[Wilbur Pan]

It would be this one, D-MK-118-210 210 mm $137.00. Here is mine cutting 2.25" Walnut.

It cuts walnut all by itself? Well worth the money, then. ;)

[Dale Osowski]

It cuts walnut all by itself? Well worth the money, then. ;)

That's a good one, I almost spit my coffee out.

Dale

[Charlie Mastro]

To my knowledge there is only one person in the US that does Metate.

Mark Grable
607 Highland Rd.
Springfield, VT 05156
(802) 885-3376

I have used him and the turnaround time was remarkable. I sent him the saw 8-15-07 and got it back 8-21-08. He is very reasonable and I suggest you call him first and left him tell you how to send the saw to him.

[Dan Racette]

The metate info is good to know. Knowledge is great here.

Wilbur I hit my head on my monitor when I read your post! That was a great one!

I hope to get one in the shop by spring. Things are happening. Stashing my lunch money from the bullies.