Home Bar Top

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Everyone,
Hope you all are well. This is my first forum and naturly my first post.
Never ever marrry a carpenter's daughter! Only kidding.
I could use help on the best indestructible finish for the bar top. It has to go over Oak wood. I have experimented with small peaces of wood with Polyurethan, Polyester Resin, Acrylic Polymer and Epoxy Resin.
The Polyurethan- gets too many nicks and scratches.
The Polyester Resin- Scratches
Acrylic Polymer- I use it at my real job for hair products (water will wear it away.
The Epoxy Resin- Might be the best one but it seems to be ok with scratches and it is hard but I think it can dent and then smooths out over time. What I wanted to emulate was the hardness and the toughness of quartz countertops where one can put hot pots on it and cut on it.
If anyone ideas

[Jim Becker]

Welcome to SMC!

There is no "indestructible" finish...only compromises. One of our resident pros who does a lot of bar installations. You can see some pictures of his work in this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=53913), this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50998) and this article at the Festool site (http://www.festoolusa.com/Web_files/Per_Swenson_Sanding_Bar_Top.pdf). Per and Bob use both epoxy and Behlen's Rock Hard varnish, depending on the job, etc., and often in a multi-step finishing process.

[Steve Schoene]

If you want indestructible get granite or stainless steel. (The so called quartz materials is plastic filled with quartz minerals and if you get really hot--smoking frying pan hot--it can melt under the heat.) Epoxy will breakdown at lower temperatures than that.

I'd start with a pore filler, tinted to be just a hair darker than the oak. This will also act as a stain if you don't first seal the wood with a thinned coat of finish. Then after this has cured a week, I'd apply about 4 coats of Behlen Rockhard varnish and rub it out to what ever sheen you want. Sure it will scratch if you abuse it, as will all finishes over wood, but is easier to repair than polyurethane varnish. Use hot plates, and a cutting board.

[Brian Schursky]

Wow lots of good stuff and thanks so much.
I'm going to try this on a small sample, The Oak wood with golden oak stain then a thin seal coat of "Kleer Koat" (Epoxy Resin) from www.mrfiberglass.com (http://www.mrfiberglass.com) since I have a qt of it. Then a pour coat of the same stuff. Then to top it off with a few layers of th Behlen Rockhard Table Top Varnish being sent as I type from www.woodcraft.com (http://www.woodcraft.com)
Sounds crazy? Maybe I should stick to my day job.
Brian

[Brian Schursky]

Hi everyone hope all are well. I was trying small pours of the Kleer Koat Clear Epoxy Resin and after a few days the top layer would remain soft. I was thinking since I have 2 qt. of the stuff (Resin and Hardner) I would weight out a few grams. They measure it by volume and not percent weight. Got the Specific Gravity of the 2 chemicals so I could weight it out in grams. Also the manufacturer told me it has to be above 70F for a few days. He said he gets a lot of phone calls during the winter time of people having the same problem. So on my little trial run I have a heat lamp on in. Let you know. Got some pics of the bar so far. "Remember I'm not a carpenter".http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2296/2224553853_85ea2b28a9_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2237/2225344480_3204a197ca_b.jpg

[Lee Koepke]

I used the pourable epoxy for my bar top, it looks great. But as Jim said, you have to make compromises ... the resin gives the depth and beauty, but its NOT heat resistant and it wont take alot of cutting abuse.

Depending on your intended use, mine is strictly a bar, so if I have something hot, coaster or trivet. If I cut, cutting board.

I can dig up a picture if you would like to see mine:D

[Brian Schursky]

I was thinking of adding Behlen's Rockard Table Top Varnish to cover the epoxy resin. Do you think that would be ok? Send a pic of your bar

[Lee Koepke]

Here is what mine ended up like. I havent seen the need for the RockHard finish yet.

( some other pics if you are bored )

http://http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii16/LCKII/Basement%20Bar/?action=view&current=Basementjuly07011.jpg



http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii16/LCKII/Basement%20Bar/Basementjuly07011.jpg

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Lee,
Looks great. Two things. The beavege cooler you got we got a floor model from home depot so it was not that bad for price but it only goes down to 41F. I included a pic of it. Next what temp. did you pour the Epoxy at, did you keep it at that temp. and how long did it take to get hard?
Thanks Brian
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2345/2224552567_4c9a3ea0ba_b.jpg

[Lee Koepke]

I got my beer fridge from sams. its a HAIER and it keeps "the coldest beer in town" !!!

My basement is pretty consistent temp for each season. I did that pour in spring, so it was 65-70 and 35% ish humidity. It went real easy, except it will find ANY little hole.

My bar top made is 10X more difficult with tounge and groove pine. I had to put many coats of poly on to seal the voids.

It went by the book, it was tacky to the touch in 24 hrs and durable and stable 48 hrs ish. I left a fan blowing overnight to make sure the finish cured evenly, distributing the heat load. I have a few little bubbles I couldnt get out, but everyone is a harsher critic of their own work. Then I let it set for one full week before I put anything on it.

My was a 2 part epoxy system from an online source.

[Rick Peek]

Pics of my bar. I used 2 part epoxy. So far it has held up well.
A little glossy for my taste,but it really added a nice amber
tone to the spalted maple top.

[Brian Schursky]

Hey Rick,
Looks great! I'm going to use the 2 part epoxy, my small trial run with a heat lamp came out alot harder than my first run. Can't keep the house above 70F for a week. (Cost at Con-Ed too much). I guess I'll have to just cover it and pour it in the spring. Then put the Behlen's rock hard table varnish on top of the epoxy.
Brian

[Per Swenson]

Hi Yah,

We recommend slow cure Mas epoxy for the least amount of bubble problems.

http://www.masepoxies.com/public/

You chase the bubbles with a heat gun.

We then use Behlens table top, 4 coats plus.

Then polish after 4 to 6 weeks.

Per

[Brian Schursky]

Hey Per,
How goes it? My last trial run with the Kleer Koat went good on a 1ft x 1ft piece of wood. Just as long as I kept above 70F for a week. I thought the few bubbles that I had came out easly with a pass of a hand held blow torch. On Sunday I'm going to put the Belhen's varinish on it and keep it above 70F.
Brian

[Per Swenson]

Brian,

Nice, but a few things.

This is a true trial and error deal.

There is no formula that works for all woods and and climate conditions.

That being said it is a good Idea to also let the epoxy gas out for 30 days or so. The Behlens may Fog it if it is not fully cured.

Also, impurities do rise to the top of the epoxy cure, so rinse it
with denatured alchohol and then tooth it with 320.

The surface must be dust free, bubbles form around any dust particles.

Do not use a tack rag.

Good luck and don't be disappointed.

We make at least three test pieces and check temps with a infrared gun.

Per

[Brian Schursky]

Hi again Per,
Thanks for the info. What do you mean tooth it with 320, Do then wipe it with alcohol? I don't know what a tech rag. I was thinking put the varnish on with a squeezy. Your scaring me when you said don't be disapointed.
Brian

[Jim Becker]

Per means give it a light sanding with 320 paper to give the surface something for the varnish to stick too. He's also saying to not use a commercial "tack rag" as these sometimes leave residues that mess up finishes. Rather, just wipe the sanded epoxy surface with a lint-free cloth with a little alcohol on it to remove the sanding dust prior to proceeding with the Behlen's Rock Hard varnish.

[Jim Summers]

No thread swiping intended, but I have heard using a micro-fiber cloth is a good thing. I think it can be rinsed with water to clean it out and re-used.

[Per Swenson]

Sorry Brian,

I didn't mean to dash that off with out a full explanation.

But Jim did a fine job of interpreting.

Don't be afraid though, but we do every top as if it was our first time.

If we have a Boo-Boo, that's what sanders are for.

I say this because nobody I know has a factory that can finish

a 30/40 foot continuous bartop under perfect conditions and then transport it.

This leads to dust and temp fluctuations during the cure.

Here is a shot prepolished of what you should come out with.

Per

[Jim Becker]

I tried a little color correction on Per's picture to see if the top is displayed a little clearer. Hard with no "white" reference, however....so it's not what I really was trying to do. Oh, well...

80561

[ken gibbs]

1) Is the two part epoxy sold as "BAR FINISH" ?

2) Is 'BAR FINISH" a brand name or can you reference the brand name of two part finish you used ?

3) Are the directions/instructionson the container accurate?

4) Are there any product web sites I can vist and get some additonal information about "Bar Finishes", compatible stains, and the "hard" topcoat you referenced?

Thanks for your help.

Ken Gibbs

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Ken,
Whats up
The Epoxy is 2 part 1:1 ratio. I got a sample (2 qts) It's called Kleer Koat Mfg by West Systems. from www.mrfiberglass.com (http://www.mrfiberglass.com). I couldn't measure it by volume so I went to US Composites at www.shopmaninc.com (http://www.shopmaninc.com) and they were able to answer my questions about the temp. and the specific gravity so I could measure it out in grams.

The varnish (Behlen's Rockhard Table Top Varnish) I got a small can from www.woodcraft.com (http://www.woodcraft.com).
Brian

[Per Swenson]

No it is not BAR FINISH.

That is a different product which will give you

the plastic laminate look.

When we started doing this we had west systems on the phone.

They told us straight out not to use their product for this type of

application and went so far as to recommend MAS.

For that type of honesty we will bend over backwards for west systems

epoxy on our other projects.

Per

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Per,
How are you? Should I try a sample from Mas instead of the Kleer Koat. If so which one should I try out.
Brian

[Per Swenson]

Hi Brian,

Well, its like this.

The decision is yours.

We will only use Mas for this application on future projects.

What I would do, because we have not used clear coat,

is get every body on the phone and ask questions

one key question is just how clear is it.

(Epoxies tend to yellow).

Just like west systems Mas answer's the telephone.

The elk here is 5/8ths deep. 2 pours.



Per

[Alex Carrera]

I'm starting a bar in a friend's basement, and was just going to use table top varnish on it. What's the benefit of using the epoxy under it?

[Per Swenson]

Finish is all about light reflection.

A perfectly flat surface reflects uniformly.

Looks like glass.

That is tough to do on a Bartop and keep it that way.

Not only will epoxy let you sand to a flat surface it will

leave a impermeable flat surface only subject to UV light.

The table top varnish will take care of the UV.

I used to Drink. Alot.

I have experienced first hand the rigors put through a surface buy both drunks and raw alcohol.

Not to mention sticky sugary mixtures some find to their liking.

The other deal with Bartops (in the home) rarely are they cleaned promptly.

Don't worry I'll get it in the morning, The Giants are on.

So, super durability, longevity and finish.

And never let drunks smoke on your bar.

Per

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Everyone,
How are you guys? Question for Per. I ordered a small sample from the MAS Epoxy people. (Handy Repair Kit Slow) which is the Low Mas Viscosity Resin and MAS Slow Hardner to try out instead of the Kleer Koat. The lady at MAS said it was a better product than the Kleer Koat. She was saying why use the Behlen's varnish at all if the Bar top is inside. Do you recommend to still use the varnish? Also what would you use on the Oak Arm Rail?
Thanks Brian

[Per Swenson]

Even reflected sunlight is no good for clear

Epoxy.
Varnish polishes much nicer and easier then epoxy.

Varnish on top of epoxy is Ideal.

Per

[Chris Padilla]

The elk here is 5/8ths deep. 2 pours.

Per

Nice work on the elk, Per. Yours? Nice to see 4 fingers on your right hand still! :) I assume the left is similar.... ;)

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Per,
Epoxy on the arm rails too or just varnish?
brian

[Per Swenson]

Thanks Chris,

Have all the digits accounted for, except,

that tail removed at birth.:D

Brian, we just varnish the rail.

Its a economic thing as playing with

epoxy on anything less then perfectly horizontal is

real tough.

Per

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Everyone
How goes it? Is Per out there? I compaired the kleer Kote to the Mas epoxy and the side by side results are in. The Kleer koat has a little better brillance and slightly less plastic look. The Mas epoxy look is super clear don't get me wrong and its easyer to work with. The big plus for the Mas epoxy is the knowlege at the mas website and the people there. The main advantage at least for me is the pour temp can be below 70F. I'm going to go with the Mas product.
I tried the rockhard varnish on a small sample that has the epoxy on it. It seems hard for me to work without getting bubbles on it. I got the best results by wipping on a few layers. Then I wanted to see how smooth I could get it so I hit it with 150 grit and then 400 grit (thats the only ones I had). How can I get it to be shiny and clear again? I tried car compound and car wax and using a buffer on my drill. Again the only things I have at the moment.
Thanks Brian

[Per Swenson]

Hello Brian,

Glad things are beginning to come together.

What you might want to do is check this out

for how to deal with the varnish.

Remember it is critical to let both the epoxy and varnish gas out before

polishing. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=17615&highlight=shameless+festool

Per

[Brian Schursky]

Hello There,
Hope all is good. Hey Per I tried to follow your steps on my little sample with stuff I could get my hands on Sunday. Home Depot didn't have anything over 600 grit. So I stopped at the local Autoparts store.
All was done by hand no tools. Wet sanded using 600 grit then 800 grit and last 1600 grit. Looked alot better. Then I used the old style car rubbing compound (before clear coat paint was used on cars). Then I used regular car polish. The final is really good. When I do the real top with a machine it should come out fine. Got to order more Rockhard varnish and the Mas epoxy today. Mas people say the handy repair kit (1 pint of resin 8oz of slow hardner) covers 67sq feet at (1/16-1/8). I was thinking of getting 1 quart of resin and 1 pint of hardner to make sure I am 1/4 inch thick. Cool on the thickness.
I got one for you my wife wants me to attach somehow LEDs lights in the side to pass light sideways through the Epoxy. Ha Ha
Brian

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Per,
The Mas Epoxy people keep saying all I need is the handy repair kit to cover my 17sq ft top. They say it can cover 67sq ft at 1/16-1/8 (16 oz of resin and 8oz or hardner inch thick. I told them I wanted to make mine almost 1/4 inch thick. Maybe 1 quart of resin and a pint of hardner they thought. My calulations come to 2 gallons of resin and 1 gallon of hardner. Am I wrong, are they wrong?
Thanks Brian

[Steve Schoene]

To bring this thread back up to the top.

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Guys,
How is everyone? I spoke to Phoenix Epoxys whom is the laboratory for Mas epoxys and they agree with me about 3 gal of resin and hardner to cover 16sq ft taking in account the density and specific gravity of the epoxy product. He said he didn't know why the tech person at Mas claims it would cover 67sq ft at 3mils(1/16-1/8) thick.
That epoxy is expensive.
Thanks Brian

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Everyone,
Hope everyones good. Don't forget Happy Easter.
I got a few days of from work so I poured the Epoxy on Friday.
A few pics
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3025/2352434462_ebd6c454de.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2147/2352433904_614d01bee6.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2124/2351606059_51ce5ae4d1.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3193/2351606363_61b392ce5c.jpghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2352435156_356ddf7dcd.jpg

[Lee Koepke]

looks pretty nice.

once you do it ( commit to it ) its a pretty neat process. and wonderful results ...

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Everyone,
Hope all is good. It's the Bar is getting there. The Epoxy is done it came out better than my trial runs. When they say 70-80F they mean it. My trian runs were to hot. As per Per at the end of the month I'll Varnish it.
Brian
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2387/2364256852_5ef5ee5e0e_m.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/2364257282_eb72a71417_m.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2119/2364257064_61ee998334_m.jpg

[Per Swenson]

Hey Brian,

Looks great!

Feel better now?

Per

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Everyone,
Hope you are all well?
It's been a few weeks for the epoky to air out. It looks better than my trial runs. Time for the Behlens Varnish. the question is when I sand the top with 220 grit before the Varnish do I just scratch it up or do I sand it until it hazy (fully sanding)?
Thanks Brian

[Per Swenson]

Hi Brian,

Full sanding job.

Then a quick wipe with rockhard reducer.

Per

[Brian Schursky]

Hay Per how are you these days?
Thanks for the reply. I had tried a small peace of hand rail with varnish a while back using 800 then 1000, 1500, 2000 and finaly 2500 grit sandpaper. Car compound then polish. It came out nice but more of a satin look, not that high gloss (piano finish). So I order the Menzerna stuff
2L Paste Pre-Polish Compound #1
16 fine Polishing Compound
P091E Intensive Polish
Since I'm in the dog house anyway because the I spend more time at the bar than with the wife. I guess I'll have to order the Rockhard reducer.
Question does the reducer have any hardner or dryer in it or is it just mineral Oil?
Thanks again Brian

[Per Swenson]

I dunno whats in it.

And I just read the label.

But mineral spirits its not.

Maybe one of our chemists here knows.

Per

[Brian Schursky]

Hello People,
How goes everything? I finished using the Behlen's Rockhard cut 25% with the reducer. I put down 7 layers sending with 320grit every 2 days. Now I'm going to let it sit for 3 weeks.
I was trying my sanding and polishing technques and (all by hand on a small area), I first hit it with 400 then 800 then 1,000 and last 1,500 all wet sanding.
Then Menzerna stuff
2L Paste Pre-Polish Compound #1
16 fine Polishing Compound
P091E Intensive Polish
Last Car clear coat so I could slide a shot across the top.
I see scratches.
Could this be because I did it by hand? Do I need a machine?
Or maybe I used a cheap cloth to rub the Menzerna stuff?
How about I didn't use any lube with Menzerna.
Last when I sanded the higer grit to I have to sand for a longer time?
Brian

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Everyone,
Next week it will be a month after I put on the Behlen's rockhard. I had put 7 layers each cut 10% with the reducer and sanding 48 hours after each layer. When will it become hard so I can start the final sanding and polishing? I can still smell the varnish if I sniff it.
Brian

[Howard Acheson]

If it's be in an area where the temperature has been above 55 degrees, it should be ready for rubbing out now.

[Brian Schursky]

How goes it?
The Bar is done. Just got to add the little extras.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/2532875716_4f58125ff3.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2215/2532059297_18d2f8c086.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2084/2532875850_4889042310.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/2532059425_c6eb4717aa.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3013/2532059513_25ce692334.jpg

Of course the boss lady (wifey) has to have one of these things install somewhere.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3160/2532875966_b9e833ce72.jpg

Brian

[Ross Lowry]

Hey Per.
What is the reason for not using a tack rag?

[Brian Schursky]

Hi everyone. Hope life is good for you all.
Finaly got to put the pole up.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/2566710594_4ea8e6492d.jpg

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Everyone and good morning.
It has been a few months and a few parties since I had finished the Bar project.
The top is going strong. It handles any party.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3293/2867894288_c4d1547941.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3043/2867894448_4318e0b7c5.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2172/2867894150_c53c6431d1_b.jpg

We decided to call it a Bar Galley because of the shape of the bar and where th sink and the alcohol is.

[Brian Schursky]

Good Morning Everyone,
It has been 10 months with the Bar. It's still working out very well. Before a party I hit the top with some Windex and then some cheap car polish (non abrasive) and it's good to go. I can slide a drink across the top.
I was redoing a bathroom and took out a wall and low ceiling so we added a overhang over the bar last week. I guess reclaimed lumber makes me green. Hahahah Here are some pics.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3561/3399597535_4dcf041de1.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3611/3400405830_b4863d39e6.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3580/3400406144_718c267031.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3640/3399598671_e4cb07d874.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3450/3399596667_e2a116680e.jpg

[Jim Becker]

The overhang was a great idea...it really kicks the whole thing up a notch!

[Brian Schursky]

Hey thanks Jim. It was the boss lady's idea.
Always laugh at your Red Buttons Quote:)