What is this saw?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

While digging through the pile of saws tonight, I rediscovered this little gem. I got it from a local tool collectors estate sale, and it looks to me to be a factory built saw, not a Frankenstien type thing. It has a small medalion, which has the Disston keystone, but it dosen't say Disston. No visible etching either.

That is a D-12 beside it for perspective. I don't even know what you would call this saw, any ideas? My photos are pretty bad, but it has a nib, just like the D-12, and the handle dosen't appear to be reshaped.

Nothing like it at the Disston Institute, been there. What do you think?

[Thomas Knighton]

Didn't Disston have a line simply called Keystone? It was apparently originated to compete with lesser saws, but the Disston name wasn't used to keep the lower quality (which was still pretty good from what I understand) from tarnishing the Disston name. Of course, I thought they had the WARRANTED SUPERIOR medallion on them, but I could be wrong. In fact, I probably am. :o

Tom

[Marcus Ward]

They keystone line didn't show up till much later. I picked up a VERY similar saw at a junk shop for a dollar last weekend although the handle is different. You might have a replacement handle, if you can remove it, see how the holes look underneath. I will try to get pictures of mine posted soon.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Tom, I thought they came in the thirties, but after further reading of the Disston Intitute, maybe not. There is a photo of an 1890 Keystone model, so I was wrong. Would be consistant with the lack of the Disson name on the medalion.

Marcus, I will pull the handle tonight, and let you know what I find. I don't think it is a replacement handle, but I've been wrong enough today that I wouldn't bet either way. If you get photos of your saw, would be great.

[Marcus Ward]

Okay here is the one I picked up. Please excuse the pictures, I'm not a pro anymore and don't own any pro cameras.

http://www.f-64.org/littlesaw/littlesaw1.jpg

The medallion is consistent with 1840-1850, it reads H. Disston Philada and has the small dots, eagle looking left, shield chest, and more defined wings. Impossible to tell from this photo.

http://www.f-64.org/littlesaw/littlesaw2.jpg

Odd that there is a circle scored around the middle split nut, almost as if when someone made the handle and almost put the medallion on the wrong side. The medallion on the other side is a very loose fit, as if a larger one was there originally.

http://www.f-64.org/littlesaw/littlesaw3.jpg

Henry Disston is stamped in an arc on the blade in the appropriate spot for a blade this size so it's definitely not cut from a larger blade. I tried to enhance it a little but it's tough to tell without really cleaning the blade.

http://www.f-64.org/littlesaw/littlesaw4.jpg

http://www.f-64.org/littlesaw/littlesaw5.jpg

A tiny little nib.



http://www.f-64.org/littlesaw/littlesaw6.jpg

Anyone have any thoughts?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

A dollar Marcus? Do you feel guilty? Interesting saw, and really similar to mine. I took the handle off mine, and the two parts have always been together. Your saw is a little older I think. The handle on mine also appears to be factory. If not, someone took the time to exactly match the profiles of the grip on each side, with machine like consistancy. After seeing the hint of an etching on yours, I had to try cleaning mine, and while it is badly pitted, I can make out the hint of an etching. I have no idea what it is, but I am trying to find a gallery of etchings to compare the placement of the letters and one distinctive design feature, to try to imagine what is there. Fun stuff!

My wife did just point out to me that a small saw has caused me to not get anything done in those cabinets for two nights now though. Too easily distracted I guess, and there is a huge pile of saws left to count....

What do you suppose the correct name for these saws might be?

[James Mittlefehldt]

HMMMM. Curiouser and curiouser, I have one almost identical to Marcus's saw, it has split nuts, and a nib, except it is warranted superior not Disston.

I had always assumed it was a toolbox saw, but could very well be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

[Marcus Ward]

A dollar Marcus? Do you feel guilty?

No not at all. I am preaching this stuff all the time - cheap deals are to be found! A dollar disston is the reward for digging through piles of junk. :) I got a 4 1/2 for 12$ a few months ago. I've never paid more than 7.50 for a good disston, and most I pay 3$ for. Someone's gotta balance the guys who push LN and Adria. :p


Interesting saw, and really similar to mine. I took the handle off mine, and the two parts have always been together. Your saw is a little older I think. The handle on mine also appears to be factory. If not, someone took the time to exactly match the profiles of the grip on each side, with machine like consistancy.

To me yours looks very non-factory because it looks like a handle that broke and was smoothed off with that horn at the bottom pointing at the blade, I could be wrong, however.


What do you suppose the correct name for these saws might be?

I don't know, I'm tempted to agree with James that it's a tool box saw if Disston didn't make a child's saw in these eras. I think it'd be frustrating to do any real work with though, being it's so small.

[Marcus Ward]

Someone, elsewhere, identified this saw as a small panel saw. I will forward other varied responses as they arrive.

[harry strasil]

The handle is similar to a Disston Joiner saw, often called a Bench saw, but its a bit short at 12 inches and the body is taller. re: Sellens

Just a thought but could it be from a boys tool set of the times. In those days they introduced the boys to the Manual Arts early. LOL, just look at me, my father was old fashioned, and I started my smithing apprenticeship at age 7, but I played with saws, hammers, nails and chisels before that, making my own toys from scraps of lumber from the lumberyard across the street from my fathers shop.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'd buy the kids saw. The handle is not built for my hands, and like Marcus said, seems pretty small to actually get anything done. Until further evidence, I'm going with that. Cool toy! I got a tool kit when I was a tyke, and there where no Disstons in it!

Marcus, I couldn't agree more on the value of these old saws. This pile is from the same sale as the little saw, two lots of 20 saws for $5 each lot. Also got a #141 for $35, a Phillips plow with cutters for $63, and a #1 for more then I should have paid. Quite a day. There are some donor saws here, some great projects, a few ready to go, and some good old fashioned junk. One of those backsaws is fantastic!

On a side note, the saw cabinet project that started the saw counting that started the rediscovery and speculation on the little saw, will have to have more room than I originally thought. There are 40 saws in this photo, several more under the tablesaw extension, and all the ones I had before the auction. Yikes, going to be pushing 70 saws... slippery slope indeed!

[Marcus Ward]

From a couple other people I received information that it is a panel saw, pretty typical for the time period. I can get a comfortable 3 finger 1 pointer grip on it but that's it. It's worth noting I have big hands and we're all probably physically bigger than any workman from 1850.

[Bob Noles]

It is very possible that those may be salesmen sample saws. I read somewhere that they carried scaled down versions of actual saws to show prospective retailes etc.

Just a hunch, but thought I'd throw it in the pile.

[James Mittlefehldt]

From a couple other people I received information that it is a panel saw, pretty typical for the time period. I can get a comfortable 3 finger 1 pointer grip on it but that's it. It's worth noting I have big hands and we're all probably physically bigger than any workman from 1850.

I beleve actually you should saw with one finger pointed anyway. Most of my old saws work much better with the one finger pointed. I have an English saw, had to pay $15 for that one, that I cannot comfortably get four fingers into the handle. I went out and looked at mine again before posting this the blade is 18 inches and I think filed rip, with agressive set.

I would also add that my grandfather was only 5' 3 born in 1874, and he had hands that make most people's look dainty, he helped milk 24 head of cattle a day for most of his adult life. Point being his hands were as big as anyone around now.

One other question was Warrented superior the second line for Diston?

[Marcus Ward]

I think warranted superior was a medallion sold to every saw manufacturer out there who didn't have their own. I've seen them on everything. Yes, all my saws work better one finger pointed too although I've got a jackson 14" backsaw I can barely get my hand between the horns on the handle. It's a tight fit but such a nice saw I just keep using it. ;)

[James Mittlefehldt]

This thread has been running around in my mind ever since it appeared. I had never heard of the term joiners saw until Jr. mentioned it above, and I love the research aspect of this neander woodworking stuff. I have an 18 inch saw as I mentioned previous filed rip cut which apparently is what is often found with these little guys.

On another site, I found a discussion of this type of saw and it seems that no one knows for sure other than speculation what these saws were used for. One person there made the point, rightly so I think, that we have probably forgotten more of the old techniques than we could ever know.

He speculated the joiner saw could possibly have been used for starting tenons, and other stuff like that, since so many are found filed rip.

Now before I read that article this morning I had been out in the shop, it was warm enough for doing the stuff that makes you sweat, and I was rip sawing a number of pieces of pine for a project I am doing. I was having issues with the really agressive saw starting a cut, and at the end with it breaking off unevenly. I solved this (probably re-inventing the wheel ) by taking the little rip cut guy and cutting in from each end about two inches. It cuts easy though a tad slow, and that gave me much better starts and finishing.

I don't know maybe that was one reason they were around. I have since this thread started, also noted that in the Landis Workbench book there is a print near the beginning, of an early 19th century cabinet shop. The guys there are using Nicholson style benches, and it is a rural shop by the looks of it. There are three panel saws showing one being used for ripping, one hanging on the wall the same size and presumably cross cut, and beside that one on the wall is another little saw, looks to be either 18 or maybe 20 inches.

So based on that and the number of them that turn up, (I have the 18 and two crosscut 20 inch) there must have been some specific use for these saws, they are not I don't think historic anomolys.

So now I an wracking my brain, such as it is, trying to figure how these smaller panel saws were used. Maybe for finer work with thinner stock perhaps. Anyone care to speculate?

[Leif Hanson]

I believe what you have there is known as a table saw, believe it or not.... Gary at toolemera press has been going on about them lately:

http://toolemerablog.typepad.com/toolemera/2008/03/table-saw-conun.html


HTH
Leif

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Bingo! Thanks Leif, I believe you've nailed it! Mine has a nib though, and the catalog shows no nib. Some of the other table or pruning saws do though, so I'm going with this. Exact handle, assuming the shorter ones only had two screws, and available in the dimensions of my saw!