Problems while ripping oak

[Amy Leigh Baker]

Hi everybody. I've been cruising your forums for a couple days and decided to post some of my own. I have lots of questions, but I'll stick to my greatest problem for now. (FYI, I am what you would consider a novice... lots of rough framing work, a table here, a cute wooden shelf there, but always lots of enthusiasm. As I am just getting into things more recently, my tools are few & far between, and an actual shop is almost non-existent. But I see all that changing in the future :D )

I'm building a table, and after ripping some of my 1x3 oak stock to the required 2 1/4" for the legs, I am getting some blade rotation marks along the cut. They aren't horrible, but I am a perfectionist by nature. I tried taking a picture to post, but it wouldn't show up. I borrowed a small & inexpensive table saw for this work. The set-up is as follows... 24T blade, fence is parallel to blade except kicked out in the back about 1/8 inch. I push it through with one pushstick behind and one keeping the board on the fence. I wonder if the problem might be coming from not being able to keep the board on the fence on the back and it is drifting into the blade? Or perhaps when I pause to readjust the pushstick, but the marks are pretty much throughout the cut.

Any suggestions?

BTW, I've seen the pictures posted of everyone's work. Wow, I can only hope!

[Mitchell Andrus]

Small and inexpensive saw, huh?. Right away I'm thinking blade movement due to a lightweight arbor, and/or blade deflection, and/or an unsteady or poorly adjusted fence. Not much you can do skill-wise when you're fighting with the tools.

Employ another tool.... Either a jointer or a hand plane to clean up the surface. Next time, make sure the fence is within a few thousanths and (assuming there is no splitter/guard) place a wedge into the kerf behind the blade and finish the cut. It'll keep the wood from closing onto the blade a eliminate at least one possible cause for a poor cut.

[Jim Becker]

One suggestion is to use a feather board to keep the stock tight to the fence through the cut. But unless the fence is parallel to or slightly kicked out at the back side (away from the blade about the thickness of a human hair or two) you'll still get the marking which is caused by the trailing edge of the blade coming back in contact with the workpiece. Many of the "small inexpensive table saws" suffer from an inability to stay in alignment in this respect.


Oh, and welcome to the 'Creek! I look forward to seeing your project progress.

[Amy Leigh Baker]

Thanks for the input, and so quickly :) I had considered a featherboard... something to keep the stock tight to the fence. I will have to investigate that and a wedge.

Is it possible to rule out the blade not being the correct tooth count? It would help if I knew that WASN'T it.

I should mention that I was able to rip some 6" scraps of the same wood without almost no problem at all.

[Rob Blaustein]

Doubt it's the tooth count. Maybe the fence is toed out a bit too much as others suggested? Also, how did you rip the 6" piece of scrap? I ask, because that's pretty short. The first time I fiddled around with my new table saw a few years ago I was doing something exactly like that and experienced my first (and last) nasty kickback. Ripping something that short (say, less than the diameter of the blade) is tricky without good technique including a properly designed push stick or something like a Grripper (search here or google for info if you don't know about Grrippers). By properly designed, I mean something that does more than just push the wood through--it needs to keep downward pressure as well as pressure against the fence. If you're not careful about how you push on the back of the piece, you can make the leading end come up off the table (what happened to me) and that's a recipe for kickback.

[Norman Pyles]

Does the saw have a splitter? If not that may be why your getting the saw marks.

[Tom Henderson2]

Amy-

You have gotten a lot of good replies. Let me add a couple thoughts.

What has happened is that the blade and/or wood moved laterally during the cut. Hence the marks. As others have mentioned, a lightweight saw cutting hardwood may have led to some arbor flexing, which will create the marks.

If the blade is dull, it can aggravate the situation.

Or, the wood may have moved into the blade. This can happen if there is sawdust or other matter getting caught between the fence and the workpiece, or you may have inadvertantly moved the wood slightly (as when changing hand positions on a long cut). Or if the wood is warped/cupped/twisted, it can "squirm" abit as the cut progresses, leading to blade marks.

I hope some of the above might be helpful.

-Tom H.

[John Thompson]

You are using the correct blade for the cut. A 24 T is a rip blade as when you rip, you need those deep gullets to help carry away waste. Now.. it might be the right blade.. but is it sharp? A dull blade will deflect in that thick of hardwood and quite ofter burn marks also.

Another problem could be feed rate. You can't go too fast or force, but you can't go too slow either or burn. Let the saw dictate how fast you feed..

And BTW.. we can't see it... but some lines should be expected when ripping as it is not designed to cut super smooth. But.. if you use a high tooth count.. you will experiece problems as it it not designed to rip.

I rip about 1/8" proud (extra beyond the intended width) and then take it to the jointer for the baby butt smooth final pass taking 1/16" off each side.

Good luck, War Eagle...

Sarge..

[Bill Eshelman]

If you are worried about a few saw marks, you are probably just being to fussy.

Kidding. :D

I would make sure the saw is safe first.
Look at the blade and make sure the gap around it is way smaller than the board you are ripping. I've seen some pretty shady "borrowed" table saws. Read up on what a zero clearance table saw insert is. I'm not saying to buy one, but read what they do and it will help you understand the saw more. It helped me when I was learning (still am).

If everything looks and feels right and it is still leaving marks, It's time for sandpaper... or a new saw.

You'll get it.

Bill

[Randy Klein]

I am getting some blade rotation marks along the cut.

You mean burning or scratches? If burning, it could be when you re-adjust to push more board through and thus pausing your feed rate.

Either way, if the edge is a show edge, use a hand plane to clean it up. I would do this no matter what it looked like coming off any saw.

[Marcus Ward]

Cheap saws have poor fences and alignment is impossible. You're going to get this no matter how many feather boards and fancy blades you use with that saw.

[M. A. Espinoza]

To get the best out of a cheap saw make sure:

The fence it toed out at the back by no more than 1/32", 1/64" is better but tough to achieve on a cheap saw.
Use a zero clearance insert, if saw doesn't have one then make sure the plate is level with the saw table; maybe a 1/64" high at the back to make sure the work doesn't catch.
Use the splitter if it has one and make sure it is aligned to keep the work against the fence. I set mine so it puts a little pressure on the workpiece after it passes the blade, maybe 1/64" offset at most.
I recommend a push shoe over a push stick, gives better control of the work.
Featherboards help, use it if you have it if this is a finicky cut.
Make sure your work is supported on the outfeed.
Make sure your blade is true, no wobble, all teeth good, clean and not dull.
Blade needs to be in alignment with the table, usually aligned to the miter slots.Table saws work great when in tune and with a good blade, when out of tune even a $150 blade won't give a clean cut.

I don't consider a table saw a finish tool but I do hate sanding, and the less clean up the better. FWIW I usually use a scraper to get rid of saw marks or burns. I think its faster, definitely quieter, and keeps the surface flat. When sanding heavy saw marks by hand and hand held power tools its easy to distort your surface.

Most of those adjustments should be relatively quick checks, other than aligning your blade to the table.

Or you could find someone with a better saw until you get your own.:)

[Amy Leigh Baker]

Thank you everybody for all the replies! I think that with better fence alignment, a featherboard, and trying to push in one fluid motion I should be happy enough with the results that I can at least sand the rest down. (I don't have and can't hope for a planer any time soon :( )

I will be sure to post some pictures and updates of my project.

Thanks again!!!

[Lee Schierer]

Welcome to the creek. Its a good place to dangle your toes and get some pretty fair woodworking advice.

Tooth marks on the side of a rip cut are problably due to blade mis alignment. You need to go through the entire process of tuning up the saw, starting by aligning the blade to the miter slot. Once the blade is aligned with the miter slot, then the fence can be aligned with the miter slot. Once the alignment is done, you can determine if you want the back end of the fence to trail away slightly (1/64" or less).

[Marcus Ward]

Amy, a hand plane will fix all those rough edges and is way cheaper than a planer. Sanding is the devil. :)

[Michael Weber]

Sanding is the devil. :)

Amen Brother Marcus, AMEN!

[Ed Peters]

The set-up is as follows... 24T blade, fence is parallel to blade except kicked out in the back about 1/8 inch.

I am also of the mind set that in ripping, the fence should be open to the blade in the back, but not 1/8". That is a bit much. With that much splay, the blade will be holding your work off of the fence in the rear. As a general rul, .005" too .010" is more than enough clearance. Just enough so that the blade doesn't rub. You might consider ripping your stock a bit wide (1/32" or so) and then taking a trim cut if you don't have access to a jointer.

Ed

[Amy Leigh Baker]

Amy, a hand plane will fix all those rough edges and is way cheaper than a planer. Sanding is the devil. :)

Since I'm still learning, and also because I don't trust the people at my local chain of blue home improvement warehouses, could you point me to a good hand plane? :o

It hadn't occured to me to plane or sand any of the ripped edges because I figured the cut would be perfect (my mistake), but after everybody's advice I will definitely be doing that. Thanks everybody!

[Howard Acheson]

The primary and most often reason for the problem you describe is that the saw is not in proper alignment. You mention that the fence is out of alignment by 1/8". That is a mile in table saw alignment. If you want the fence "kicked out" it should be a few hundreds (thickness of the playing card, or so). The sawblade must also be parallel to the miter slot to within 0.003" or less.

I'm not familiar with your saw so I can offer any advice on the alignment process.

Finally, maybe you shouldn't worry about the saw marks and just sand them off.

[Rob Russell]

Another factor that I don't see mentioned is the quality of the blade itself. The better saw blades have laser cut grooves in them that allow the blade to expand as it heats up without warping. If you have an inexpensive balde, it's likely to be just a flat piece of steel and, as that heats up, the blade could warp slightly.

[Marcus Ward]

Amy - you don't want any hand planes made these days unless they're Lie Nielsen or Veritas, and you better make sure you're sitting down when you see the prices. There is a guy on here in the neanderthal forum named Clint Jones who sells reconditioned vintage stanley planes. A #5 would be a good all around plane for you that can function as a smoother and as a short jointer. Send him a PM and see what he has. If you can go to a flea market and find a vintage Stanley #4 or 5, or even a #3, those will all work although they might require some tuning to get into shape. If you're mechanically inclined, one of us can talk you through the process, or I'm betting there's a galoot locally who would help you.

And once you feel the finish from a proper smoothing plane you won't ever want to sand ever again. It's dreamy.

[Marcus Ward]

One caveat I need to add. Using handtools to do operations requires more learning than power tools. It might not go perfect right off the bat so decide if it's something you'd like to try because once you get a taste it's so much fun you find yourself doing it more and more until pretty soon you live in a cave in the woods and make things by hand.. err, maybe that's just me.

[M. A. Espinoza]

One caveat I need to add. Using handtools to do operations requires more learning than power tools.

This is why I suggested a scraper rather than a plane. A plane does a fantastic job but must be in tune, properly sharpened and used with proper technique and with knowledge of the grain and properties of the species.

Pretty easy to get frustrated using a crappy hand plane. But there are resources out there. Whether a good book on hand tools, someone from a local woodworker's group, or a video (Smartflix) a tutorial on hand tools will help tremendously.

Amy stated she is new to the craft and I think its possible to go overboard with suggestions giving the impression that you can't get good results with anything less than a Unisaw and a Lie Nielson. I'm not suggesting anybody here is doing this just my take on what can happen on the forums.

A card scraper is only a few bucks and you can learn to sharpen and turn a hook pretty quickly and they do a fantastic job of quickly cleaning up after power tools before sanding. Also much less likely to cause damage (tear out, chatter, anyone?)

However using a good plane and pulling long ribbons of shavings from piece of wood is pretty close to nirvana. But the difference between a good plane and what comes out of the package from a big box store is huge. Almost not even the same tool.

And even though sanding sucks, some 80 grit (to start) on a block of wood will grind off the marks. It will do the job.

Have fun.

[Colin Giersberg]

Amy, go to the Woodcraft store in Birmingham ( take Exit 164 ? off of
I-65 ), or the store in Mobile. They will have the Lie-Nielson planes and possibly the Veritas as well, but they will not have a big selection. Look at their websites ( Woodcraft's,too ) to see what they have to offer. If there are any woodworking clubs in your area, check them out. They have a wealth of knowledge ( like here ), and will be able to assist you on a more personal basis than what you can get online.

I used to belong to the Tennessee Valley Woodworkers Club in Winchester, TN., and there were over 100 members then. That was 10 years ago, and they now have close to 150 members, both young and old, with all levels of skill. There may be a similar club in Auburn, or nearby.
Unfortunately, there isn't one very close to me right now, and Winchester is around a one hour drive, which I don't really want to make. I do enough driving at work as it is.

Wish you the best in your woodworking endeavors.

Regards, Colin

[glenn bradley]

Thanks for the input, and so quickly :) I had considered a featherboard... something to keep the stock tight to the fence. I will have to investigate that and a wedge.

Is it possible to rule out the blade not being the correct tooth count? It would help if I knew that WASN'T it.

I should mention that I was able to rip some 6" scraps of the same wood without almost no problem at all.

As usual, Jim beat me to it. My first thought was "feather boards". My second thought was "fence toed-out 1/8", wow". I know some folks like to toe out a few thou but I don't know about an eighth. I use a 24T for rip and am very happy with it. JMHO.

[Bob Feeser]

Oh behalf of everyone here at the forum, welcome to the "Creek". At least medium quality tools are cheaper in the long run, both for what they produce, and if ever you want to move up, there resale value is a lot higher.
2 1/4" oak is a lot for a small table saw to handle. Using a 24 tooth blade helped to make it possible for a small saw, but 24 tooth blades usually leave saw marks in the wood.
Photos are easy to minimize the size of by usng Microsofts "Image Resizer" You can access that as a free download. Google it. That is usually the problem, in that above a certain file size, they are rejected by the server.
As far as fence alignment, Forrest WoodWorker II blades are instructed by the manufacturer to be exactly 1/1,000th wider at the back end of the blade. A misaligned fence will cause burning, saw tooth marks, and either cause you to force the workpiece through, or have the workpiece creeep away from the fence while you are trying to cut it. Fighting with the workpiece to keep it true to the fence is a leading cause of accidents. Align your fence well. As mentioned in this tread, align the miter slot to the blade first. You do that by loosening the top, there are usually holding bolts, or if the motor is attached to the top, you loosen the bolts holding the trunion to the top, and align the blade perfectly parallel to the table tops miter slot. Then align your fence to the miter slot. Finally, check to see that the fence is true to the blade, just to check your settings. This makes a world of difference. Your comment that the board keeps drifting away from the fence in the back is a clear indication that the fence is closer to the blade in the front. You are going to waste a lot of wood that way. Get it perfectly even. Setting the saw up right is worth every minute it takes. There are a lot of articles on proper procedure to do that. Google "table saw setup techniques, or procedures"
Another problems you could be having is the fence, whether it stays truly parallel when you set it.
I strongly recommend that you get a book that is only $13 on Amazon by Yueng Chan called " Classic Joints with Power Tools". You will notice that there are 8 reviews, and every one of them are 5 stars. Amazon featured my review. I really love the book, because it goes beyond standard techniques, all the way to wisdom. I have a ton of books on woodworking, and that one came immediately to the forefront of my mind. He goes over hand tools as well as power tools, describing the "set" you should be evolving into. Doing it right the first time is the easiest way. Here is the link (http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Joints-Power-Tools-Yeung/dp/1579902790/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201232860&sr=1-2). Oh and asking a lot of questions here is great for information, as well as even more fun than discovering things in the book. :)


Hi everybody. I've been cruising your forums for a couple days and decided to post some of my own.
I have lots of questions, but I'll stick to my greatest problem for now. (FYI, I am what you would consider a novice... lots of rough framing work, a table here, a cute wooden shelf there, but always lots of enthusiasm. As I am just getting into things more recently, my tools are few & far between, and an actual shop is almost non-existent. But I see all that changing in the future :D )
I'm building a table, and after ripping some of my 1x3 oak stock to the required 2 1/4" for the legs, I am getting some blade rotation marks along the cut. They aren't horrible, but I am a perfectionist by nature. I tried taking a picture to post, but it wouldn't show up. I borrowed a small & inexpensive table saw for this work. The set-up is as follows... 24T blade, fence is parallel to blade except kicked out in the back about 1/8 inch. I push it through with one pushstick behind and one keeping the board on the fence. I wonder if the problem might be coming from not being able to keep the board on the fence on the back and it is drifting into the blade? Or perhaps when I pause to readjust the pushstick, but the marks are pretty much throughout the cut.

Any suggestions?

BTW, I've seen the pictures posted of everyone's work. Wow, I can only hope!

[Amy Leigh Baker]

2 1/4" oak is a lot for a small table saw to handle.

Bob, maybe you misunderstood... I am ripping 1X to 2 1/4" wide.


Oh and asking a lot of questions here is great for information, as well as even more fun than discovering things in the book. :)

The learning and the time spent doing something I enjoy are without a doubt the best parts of this process. The furniture is just a perk :D

[Bob Feeser]

Bob, maybe you misunderstood... I am ripping 1X to 2 1/4" wide.



The learning and the time spent doing something I enjoy are without a doubt the best parts of this process. The furniture is just a perk :D

Oops. I did misunderstand, my bad. I see that you clearly said that you were ripping 1x3 stock to 2 1/4".

The process: I too have a love for learning. The journey is as important, or sometimes even more important than the destination.
Maybe you could help me. How do you get the reply to break up the quotes like that? I tried to do that with my reply to you, and couldn't figure it out, other than redoing the [quote... and [/quote] each time. Did I just answer my own question? Your help is appreciated. Thanks.

[Amy Leigh Baker]

Maybe you could help me. How do you get the reply to break up the quotes like that? I tried to do that with my reply to you, and couldn't figure it out, other than redoing the [quote... and [ /quote] each time. Did I just answer my own question? Your help is appreciated. Thanks.

Yes you answered your question. I copy and paste with ease! Your welcome :)

[Amy Leigh Baker]

Hello everyone,

I figured I would update everybody on the status of my table saw problems. As I can only work on Sunday, I did a fair amount of work yesterday. First I made a featherboard from a pine 1x6 I got from work. Doing this was a good exercise as I had to reset the fence about 9 times. Then I very carefully lined up the saw to 2 1/4". I got the front of the fence lined up to my satisfaction, and the rear about as humanly possible on this saw. It was maybe 1/64" toed out in the back. This combined with the featherboard made the results acceptable to me.

I ripped 20 boards, and a couple still had marks in them, but about half of them I had trouble telling the ripped edge from the "factory" edge. I clamped the featherboard with one clamp, and I had to adjust it after every cut, but all that entailed was nudging it back toward the fence at the top, and I didn't have to remove the clamp to do this.

As for fixing the existing marks, I bought 80grit sandpaper and that works pretty good for the non-visible edges, but I might want to take more out on the visible edges. I haven't decided yet.

Thanks for everybody's help and guidance!

Amy :)