Using Waterborne Lacquer on Ebonized Oak

[Kenn Archibald]

Hello everyone,
I'm new to Sawmill Creek, but I have enjoyed reading a lot of your posts and tips in the past, and finally have a question of my own to post.

I run a environmentally friendly furniture production studio and avoid finishes that use harsh solvents or petro-chemicals. I currently use a waterborne (acrylic) lacquer which I love. Recently I've been trying to ebonize white oak using the vinegar and steel wool method (the color and control is great!) but I've found that when I apply the water based lacquer over the ebonized wood, it actually rusts and flakes off.

Does anyone know if there is a way to use the acrylic lacquer with this method of ebonization, or should I try and find a black dye that works instead?

If the latter is my only option, does anyone know of any high quality natural ebonizers or dyes?

[Steve Schoene]

Why not use a sealing coat of dewaxed shellac under the acyrlic lacquer. About as natural and environmentally friendly as you get.

[Jim Becker]

Kenn, I agree with Steve.

The water borne product you are using will not stick to "anything" and you're obviously experiencing one of those times when that is absolutely true. The de-waxed shellac will act as a barrier coat between the treated wood and the water borne finish. (It must be de-waxed shellac...the water borne will have adhesion problems with waxy shellac) And to illustrate what Steve means about environmentally friendly...you've probably eaten a lot more shellac than you can imagine since it's sometimes used as a coating on things like candy and medications. Basically...it's bug spit dissolved in alcohol.... :D

The easiest way for you to try this out is for you to trot down to your local 'borg or full service paint store and buy some Zinsser Sealcoat. This is pre-mixed de-waxed shellac that is also relatively light in color...minimal color shift for your project. You can brush it on for your tests, but it sprays wonderfully. The latter is what I'll recommend for your situation as it will get you a very thin barrier coat that is a great surface for your water borne finish. (Exactly what I'll be doing in the shop today as a matter of fact) You'll also want to buy a gallon of Denature Alcohol for cleanup. If you brush, use a GOOD brush.

[Joe Chritz]

Metal and waterbase aren't good bedfellows.

I regularly use oil based stains under Target USl by using a sealcoat. It was at their direction and it works great.

Finishes don't get much more natural than shellac so that shouldn't be a problem.

Joe

[Kenn Archibald]

Thanks for the tips, but I don't think shellac will cut it as an environmentally-friendly finish. Most shellacs contain high levels of Volatile Organic Compounds, typically around 750g/Liter, which is about 3 to 7 times the standard for Low-impact products.

While it may be safe in ingest once it is cured, the initial out-gassing of the finish releases a lot of toxic chemicals into the atmosphere (or peoples' homes). When methanol and ethanol evaporate and break down in nature, they produce large quantities of carbon dioxide as well.

I'm thinking I might just have to limit the finish options for the ebonized white oak to oil or wax 'cause I love the look of the vinegar/rust stain. Much better than the product I was using before.

Has anyone had luck using india ink in ebonizing? Is it at all similar to the vinegar solution?

Thanks again.
_k

[Justin Bukoski]

india ink works great as an ebonizer but water borne finish will not stick to it very well. I assume CA glue or epoxy have too many voc's for you as well? If not one of them could be used as a sealer.

Last resort is to just use paste wax as the finish.

[Peter Froh]

Has anyone had luck using india ink in ebonizing? Is it at all similar to the vinegar solution?


Here is a display table I made. I used india ink to ebonize the oak and used Targets USL as the top coats. Worked well and I had no problems.

79932

79931

79930

[Ben Kautz]

I did a job using Crystalac waterborne lacquer over Seal Coat (which I have had great success with in the past) over Red Oak kitchen cabinet doors.
I ended up with black tannin bleeding through. I am having to redo this customers job. After talking to several refinishers in the area and some paint reps. I have concluded the problem was with the waterborne Crystalac.
I will never use waterborne products again until proven wrong, which I am open to as it sprays on easily.

Ben Kautz
FBK Enterprises
Whitehall Michigan

[Jim Becker]

Ben...the problem you describe brings curiosity. If you sealed the piece with de-waxed shellac, I'm not understanding how your water borne top coat would have caused the issue you had. Waterborne finishes dry to the touch very quickly...not quite as fast as solvent based lacquers, but relatively fast. The "water" which transports the acrylic finish and solvents doesn't hang out very long and shellac is an excellent moisture barrier. Issues with black staining on oak due to tannins often are caused by iron...such as someone using steel wool rather than synthetic abrasives to knock of nibs, etc.

I don't work in oak very often but have two oak pieces in my home that are finished with SealCoat and Target Coatings USL waterborne "lacquer" (No water borne is "really" lacquer...they are acrylics) and I did not experience any odd coloration issues.

[Ben Kautz]

I used Seal cote, which I used before under Poly with excellent results.
I learned from working on boats to never use steel wool. I have had several refinishers say they have never seen a problem like this before. They all say they would never used water based lacquer.
I have been advised by a paint Rep for Repcolite to use clear stain, then vinyl sealer, then about 3 coats of Precat lacquer.
My customer wanted Polyurethane. I am in a quandary over what to do to not have the black stains reappear. I paid to have a commercial stripper do the doors to get all the old finish off. They used oxalic acid on spots.

Ben

[Steven Hans]

Peter,
That finish is looking good. Did you spray?

[Peter Froh]

Peter,
That finish is looking good. Did you spray?

Yes, sprayed USL with a Fuji 4 stage HVLP system (nice machine BTW). The india ink was applied with a foam brush prior to the spray finish.

[Jamie Buxton]

... Most shellacs contain high levels of Volatile Organic Compounds, typically around 750g/Liter, which is about 3 to 7 times the standard for Low-impact products. ....


Hunh? I dunno about the Zinnser premixed stuff -- they might put VOCs in it to keep it viable -- but you can also make your own from solid shellac flakes and alcohol. Most people use denatured alcohol, which is usually a mix of ethanol and methanol. I don't think alcohol is classified as a VOC. The flakes are available online and from any woodworking store.

[Howard Acheson]

>> they might put VOCs in it to keep it viable
>> I don't think alcohol is classified as a VOC

Yes, I believe it is. The alcohol emits VOC's when it is evaporating.

[Jamie Buxton]

Okay, I looked it up. The US EPA says that "VOCs are organic compounds that have a high vapor pressure and low water solubility". Ethanol and methanol, the alcohols usually used in denatured alcohol, are quite easily dissolved in water. So they're not VOCs.