Have to shut down laser business...

[Peter Boyford]

...after only 1 month!

Here's why: I purchased my laser in december 2007 and was happy. I put it in my business (in the basement in a living complex) and lasered away. After only 1 hour, a neighbour lead my attention to the fact that it was smelly all the way up in their appartment. Bummer...

I suggested to my neighbour that I bought an exhaust system and tried again. Appearantly, that didn't help. I lead the exhaust out the window, but the neighbour could still smell it. Hmmm

"What if I move it to the far side of the room - so that it's not under your appartment at all?" Well... Said and done... and another complaint! I couldn't smell anything in the room I moved the laser away from, but could smell a whiff in the hallway.

Now the board in the complex has written to me telling me that this smell has to be stopped, and if there is just 1 more complaint, they will try to evict me.

So here I am. I have thought about getting a carbon filter. But is that sufficient? I really only have 1 chance - and a carbon filter is pretty expensive.

I have been looking at the one sold by GCC itself, but can't seem to find either name or specs - or any guarentee if it works.

All your help is appreciated!

/Peter

[Sam Yerardi]

Is it just wood you are lasing?

[Joe Pelonio]

The dealers that sell out of an office have the filters, and there is no smell at all in the room with it venting right next to the machine. Yes, it's expensive but having already invested in the laser it's about the only way to stay in business short of moving.

An alternative, if it would be allowed, is to vent it outside and all the way up
an outside wall above the roof. If all ductwork is sealed properly there should be very little smell when you open the door to change material, and none in any other rooms.

Still, you could run into a problem like I had once in a commercial space, when on a hot day a neighboring business with no A/C had their window open with a fan sucking in air right near the outlet of my exhaust.

[Neal Schlee]

Peter,

Does the landlord know you're running a laser engraving business out of your apt.?
Personally if I were your landlord I'd probably have a problem with it, especially from a liability stand point.

Neal

[Peter Boyford]

Just some more info and questions:

Neal-> It is not a rental - I own my HQ :)

Joe->Option venting up over roof top is unfortunately not an option :(

Sam-> Acrylic. Smells baaaaad!

General: I need a recirculating system and there should be NO SMELL left after filtering. Here's a bunch of Qs:

1. Is this even possible?

2. How often would I need to change filters, only cutting/engraving acrylic?

3. Is acrylic fumes toxic?

and 4: I have heard, that there are different charcoal filters for different materials. Even though I don't believe this - is this true?

/Peter

[Sam Yerardi]

As far as acrylic being toxic, you need to check the MSDS for the material you're lasing. In the laser business I worked for we would always demand from a customer a clear indication of what the material is that we would be lasing. We designed and manufactured numerous types of lasers, CO2, YAG, etc. but regardless of the type, you ALWAYS want to know what is being produced as a result of the lasing.

In the case of acrylic, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are the primary 'effluents' created. As for toxic gas, etc., for acrylic itself it doesn't appear that there is. But again, try to get the MSDS sheet for the material. It probably won't refer to lasing but look under fire. Is there any chance that there is something else in the material as well?

[Joe Pelonio]

Actually, I kind of like the smell of acrylic, it's other things like ABS and rubber that are really nasty.

Yes, a good enough filter will eliminate all the smell, but it's going to be 2-3 thousand $.
http://www.odorcontroller.com/laser-air.html

How often to change the filter depends on what you are cutting and how often, maybe someone that has it can give their experience.

Any fumes can be toxic if you inhale enough of them. Not nearly as bad as PVC and some others but if you vented into the same room with no filter a canary would probably die within 1/2 hour. Think of it as being no worse than a fireplace chimney, but if the chimney was vented out the window where other people got the fumes.

The two times I had a visit from the fire department on complaints they determined the acrylic fumes I put out to be harmless because they were so disbursed into the air.

[Peter Boyford]

Joe-> so, what you say is, that the fumes would compare to what a car exhausts: dispersing in the air is "non-toxic" wheres replacing your normal breathing air with it is lethal?

What I try to establish is: I know that car exhaust is toxic. I also know that society accepts these. So the smell of acrylic is not necessarily equal to emminent death... Correct in paraphrasing?

[Joe Pelonio]

Disclaimer: I'm not a toxicologist.

I asked a materials chemist at the University of Washington about laser cutting polycarbonate and he could not answer, he said it's not corrosive like PVC but was unaware of any studies done on polycarbonate. My question was after trying it and getting bright yellow smoke. Anyway, he said that the fumes from most all laser cutting, burning, and many household and industrial chemicals can be toxic if concentrated with a long exposure. I would not suggest pouring clorox into a glass and sniffing it all day, but anyone can buy it at the grocer.

So yes, I personally agree with your statement.

[Mike Hood]

I vent outdoors, and to keep neighbors from complaining... I normally save cutting for the evenings. I also vents straight up and it carries the exhaust well above and away. I think this dispersal really helps. I can't imagine cutting indoors with no external venting though. The smoke alone would add up fast.

[Dan Hintz]

How about trying an inexpensive filter first? Run the exhaust through several levels of sealed buckets filled with water (the exhaust of one bucket leads into the in take of the next). Make sure the exhaust bubbles up through the water, not just across the surface... several layers of medium wire mesh really break up the bubbles and get a lot of surface area against the water. Some baking powder sprinkled into the water may kill some odors, too, though I don't know for how long before it needs replacement.

If all else fails, you might also consider running it through a junkyard car's catalytic converter (you'll need a strong heater element to get it up to working temp, though). It may eat a lot of electricity, but it would also be cheaper in the short run (not a permanent solution).

The carbon monoxide, etc. aren't the cause of the smell (possibly some sort of sulphides being emitted), so you'll need to find some way to kill those off if.

Since you only get one shot, you may want to load the whole shebang up into the truck and take it to a local storage unit for a weekend and try it out there.

[Mitchell Andrus]

How about leasing the corner of the shop at a local trophy maker? You can come and go during business hours and he gets a bit of rent and a deal on your work. Cell phones put the office in your pocket.

[Joe Pelonio]

I vent outdoors, and to keep neighbors from complaining... I normally save cutting for the evenings. I also vents straight up and it carries the exhaust well above and away. I think this dispersal really helps. I can't imagine cutting indoors with no external venting though. The smoke alone would add up fast.
Are you in a commercial space or home? I try to cut during the day when the neighbors are all gone at work, though on weekends too, if I'm busy. I still have had no complaints after a year running here at the house.

[Peter Boyford]

Dan-> Thanks for your suggestions - keep 'em coming :)

Mitchell-> Actually I have asked one of my nearby suppliers and he gives me heads up for using some space (for free!!!) for a couple of months - which is also where I imagine to run some filtration tests.

Only problem is, though, it's temporary. And also my neighnours seem to be set on their desicion of getting me out of my shop. Even though I am very conciderate (asks them when it will suit them the best to do noisy work, etc).

More suggestions and answers to my earlier questions are more than welcome!

Best regards
Peter

[Sean Bullock]

Greetings.

I recently heard of a company that sells a powder that is used specifically for this purpose. Somehow you would place it in-line with your venting system and it comes out smelling like fresh laundry. I remember seeing a small sample in a bag and it did, in fact, smell like fresh laundry. I understand it is expensive, but may be the solution you are looking for.

I have contacted the gentleman who had the sample pack and he said he will get back to me with the company name and contact info.

[Peter Boyford]

Sean-> sounds very promising! Can it really be true? How did it look? Any clue of a brand?

[Sean Bullock]

Sean-> sounds very promising! Can it really be true? How did it look? Any clue of a brand?


It was a white powder. And I am not sure if it will work well enough for you, but it may be something to use in conjunction with your other options. Wasn't really interested in it at the time so I didn't pay much attention to it. I am waiting for a return phone call to give you more specifics.

[Joe Pelonio]

Definitely interesting, I wonder how they keep it from blowing out the exhaust.

[Dan Hintz]

Definitely interesting, I wonder how they keep it from blowing out the exhaust.
Pick up a Dyson vacuum cleaner sometime, they're wonderfully designed machines. The use a swirl chamber to suck dust up, deposit it in a chamber, and exhaust the air, all with no major filtering.

[Micheal Donnellan]

Are you sure they can even smell it at all, might be they just don’t want you there. They hear the blower and their mind tell them they smell it when in fact they can’t. If something is irritating you for what ever reason it easy for you to overreact when hear see the associated stimulation in this case the blower. If you ran the laser doing a dry run or two just to generate some noise and you still get smell complaints you can be damm sure its in their head.

Was also going to suggest a water percolation unit to ease off on any actual smells but its being suggested already by people who know what their talking about.

[James Jaragosky]

I have been watching this on eBay for some time now. maybe you can use it.
Micro Air MA4200 Industrial Air Cleaner Vacuum ~ CHEAP[/URL]
It is just to big for my needs. but for the cost it is down right cheap compared to other filters of this quality.
I work from my home as well. and cut the more noxious stuff during the day when the boss is gone.

[Bill Cunningham]

If your venting to the outside at all in a condo or Apt I would think the neighbors would be wondering why all the warm (or Aircondx) air in the building was always flowing towards your door, and why there was always the faint sound of a jet engine going.. :confused: Personally, I think your in the wrong place for the type of business you want to do, and eventually their going to vote you out!! They don't have to smell anything, they only have to 'think' they smell something, and the finger will be pointed at you every time..It's not a matter of 'if' my friend, but a matter of 'when'

[mike klein]

I'm glad I live in the country. Only time I get a comment on the smell is when the UPS man makes deliveries to the back door, which is where the laser is vented to. Now I suppose there could also be some liability issues with my setup should someone get a sickness standing at the door for a period of time inhaleing the exhaust.

[Eric Fuller]

Honestly, I'de side with your neighbors. You should, by law, be out of there on zoning alone. Put yourself in their shoes.
Just find a corner of a warehouse to lease. That's what I do with my full time woodworking buisiness...I get about 600 sf total and pay $240 a month including electricity. Also has a roll up door and enough space for me to do some wrenching on the weekends when no one's around :)

[Peter Boyford]

Yes, I, too, have wondered wether the smell is actual or just a way to get rid of me. Which is why I'll make an experiment:

I'll knock on my neighbours door and tell her that I bought some cool gizmo that would eliminate the smell. I'll ask her to be extra attendant to any smells coming from my laser cutter in her apt. And then I'll turn on the "noise" without cutting. Sure, she'll either tell me it smells or not - and then I have my answer.

Also I can use this answer to let her know, that I'm on to her scam ;P

[Sam Yerardi]

In all my years in the laser world, dealing with the fumes, etc. was always a problem. As far as what amount is safe to release into the atmosphere, I'm not an EPA expert but it would come down to this - whatever is being released, what are the known effects of it (check the MSDS), what quantities are you releasing (i.e., PPM), if you know what the PPM is, is that acceptable to the EPA, how often are you releasing it, and where are you releasing it into the atmosphere (ground level, roof, etc.). A lot of times the customer simply doesn't know what's in the material. We used exhaust systems from various manufacturers and they worked well. It is difficult to find data for showing the results of lasing material with respect to effluent gases, etc. Most of what you will find is fire-related. The results of lasing materials as far as effluents can range from nuisance to deadly depending on what the material is. What it sounds like you are dealing with is probably not a health issue but I would advise getting it to the outside if possible, and if not, then whatever filtration method you are using, have some air samples taken. Contact any of the businesses in your area that do mold remediation. They should be able to put you in contact with services that can do air sampling. One source is local universities.

[Dan Hintz]

Yes, I, too, have wondered wether the smell is actual or just a way to get rid of me. Which is why I'll make an experiment:

I'll knock on my neighbours door and tell her that I bought some cool gizmo that would eliminate the smell. I'll ask her to be extra attendant to any smells coming from my laser cutter in her apt. And then I'll turn on the "noise" without cutting. Sure, she'll either tell me it smells or not - and then I have my answer.

Also I can use this answer to let her know, that I'm on to her scam ;P
If you go this route, make absolutely sure you videotape this with a hidden camera that does not stop between when you tell her, run the machine, then ask for results... you'll need it for your court case when they try to evict you.

And no, I'm not joking about any part of that statement.

[Jim Good]

I agree with the others that the sound of your compressor may automatically make people think you are generating some stink! I would concentrate on making a sound-proof enclosure for your compressor and that would eliminate their warning signal that you are "at it again". At the same time, I would continue to try a way to eliminate (or reduce) that fine acrylic aroma!

[Doug Bergstrom]

We use a Duster 2000 from ICA
www.islandcleanair.com
This works for our laser and solvent printers. You can direct vent right through the unit and it will clean the air in a 2000 sqr ft room. We direct vent our system outside but you still get residual smell in the room where the laser is especially if you are lasering acrylic. With this unit there is no smell at all and it works great. They can be purchased through grimco.com along with extra filters and charcoal.

[Kevin Huffman]

You might want to take a look at the Purex filtration systems.
It is the one we use when we go to the trade shows. We engrave everything right there on the spot and have never had any complaints about any odors. All the filters catch all the smell being exhausted out of the machine. It doesn't require any venting outside.

[Scott Shepherd]

I believe you are dead on when you mention it's the fact someone doesn't want you doing it there. I share some office space with someone who is there hit and miss, and has someone working for him part time on certain days. Neither of them will complain to me about any smell, but they have complained to a mutual friend.

So I made a point not to run the machine for two days when they were there. I got a call from the friend telling me that the people were complaining about the smell again. "That's funny, I haven't run the machine for two days", in fact, I had been doing bookkeeping for several days, trying to close out the year.

Some people complain because that's who they are.

Apparently the smell it too great, but they had painters come in for a week and paint the place, along with all the trim. Smelled like paint for a week. Didn't hear a peep out of them then.

I used to care and try to be considerate, like cutting acrylic at night, but since I determined they were complaining just to complain, I run anything I want any time I want.

Also keeping in mind, I've been sharing the same space for 14 months, and have been doing the exact same thing for about 12 months. So nothing's changed on my end. Didn't hear a peep for 10-12 months, then all the sudden, it's a problem.

[Sandra Force]

Joe P - In answer to your polycarbonate question the msds on it is good to go on lasers and it is one of the least toxic things that I cut. It does not act like PVC. I have been running 1/8" poly for 5 years and the effect is much less than ABS and I get less complaints from the neighbors. Nobody likes when I burn large quanities of ABS- it stinks big time.:cool:

[Zvi Grinberg]

And not very expensive

Look here http://www.allerairsolutions.com/
You can purify the air from the laser in room, and extract fresh air outside. All for a few hundred bucks

[Zvi Grinberg]

I have been running 1/8" poly for 5 years ...

How does the laser work with the polycarbonate? We tried and we did not like the results - it burned and melted
We tried clear polycarbonate and it became "cloudy" after we cut it.

[Robert Wachala]

I've been toying around with the idea of getting a laser system for a few months now, in fact that's how I found this site. I must admit that the odor from material never crossed my mind. When cutting/etching is it really that potent of an odor? I can see in an apartment how venting out a window could cause some neighbor reaction but in a suburban home environment is the odor so strong that neighbors would pickup on it that easily?

[Joe Pelonio]

I've been toying around with the idea of getting a laser system for a few months now, in fact that's how I found this site. I must admit that the odor from material never crossed my mind. When cutting/etching is it really that potent of an odor? I can see in an apartment how venting out a window could cause some neighbor reaction but in a suburban home environment is the odor so strong that neighbors would pickup on it that easily?
That would depend on how close together the homes are and where the outlet is directed. I'm in a neighborhood with 10-12,00 SF lots, so the homes are pretty far apart, unlike most newer minimum lot sized developments. My vent is going out the second story, aimed, as you can see by the yellow arrow, toward an intersection. if the wind were just right and a window opened the house behind us (below in the pic) might get some fumes, but
so far no complaints after a year. That side of their home is a spare bedroom and bathroom. The arrangement for my exhaust was carefully planned.

[Phil Sanders]

Peter:

Joe Pelonio touch on what I wanted to add to this thread. Zoning laws.

In may industrial states, and large metro cities, there are anti-home based industrial business laws. (The why these zone laws exits is a very long post, just take it that the laws do exist and in some places are enforced.) While a home craftsperson may sew baby clothes for craft show, make candles, or paint dishes, usually the line is drawn in the sand when it comes to CNC machines, laser or router.

A multi-housing building (condo, or rental) will never be granted an exception to such anti-home based business zoning laws. Like it, or not, this is the facts. You may be located in a local area that doesn't have such zoning laws, but that is getting real rare for most cities today. In fact I wonder if mud throwers can operate their pottery Kiln in such a condo place?

As Joe mentioned, he lives it a single home zoned area, which traditionally has a bit more flexibility in zoning law enforcement. The key is ownership of land; real estate, ground. More freedom to land owners. Get out to the country, where townships rule, and you have even more freedoms because you own more land.

So, about your business plan (which I hope you have) can you afford a small corner of some back building in an light industrial zoned area for a few hundred dollars a month?

Phil

[Joe Pelonio]

Peter:

As Joe mentioned, he lives it a single home zoned area, which traditionally has a bit more flexibility in zoning law enforcement. The key is ownership of land; real estate, ground. More freedom to land owners. Get out to the country, where townships rule, and you have even more freedoms because you own more land.

Phil
Good points. Our city encourages home based business because the traffic up and down the plateau is so bad already. When I got my business license I gave details of what I did and there was no questioning of it. I'm sure they would revisit that if there were a complaint, however. One guy a few blocks away is doing auto body work in his garage, and was made to put in a booth with air scrubber after a complaint, but was allowed to keep doing it. Another neighbor a few houses down is a tile contractor and while most of his work is on the jobsite does some work in his garage.

Out in the boonies where my parents live, there is a logging company and an auto repair within a few blocks, but in an unincorporated area where most homes are on 5+ acres.

Any chance of moving?

If not the rental idea is good, especially if you can sub some space from another business that will compliment yours.

[Peter Boyford]

Your point of zoning law is taken. Even though I reside in Denmark, we have similar laws. The laws, though, are not enforced particular for business type, but more or less restricted to how much noise, odor and pollution you emit.

So, even though I am moving soon to clear all things up, I can see a way to stay temporarily using a filter system. In fact, I just bought GCC's original and recomended filter solution for about $3200. Everybody I speak to, tells me it's perfect for eliminating smell. Actually so good, that the rest of the room (in which people smoke cigarettes) will smell even better while lasing than without :P

I hope that people are right, and that this is the right solution. At least, I'll have a CE-branded filter to show to the environmental people, should they show up.

Best regards
Peter

[James Jaragosky]

Your point of zoning law is taken. Even though I reside in Denmark, we have similar laws. The laws, though, are not enforced particular for business type, but more or less restricted to how much noise, odor and pollution you emit.

So, even though I am moving soon to clear all things up, I can see a way to stay temporarily using a filter system. In fact, I just bought GCC's original and recomended filter solution for about $3200. Everybody I speak to, tells me it's perfect for eliminating smell. Actually so good, that the rest of the room (in which people smoke cigarettes) will smell even better while lasing than without :P

I hope that people are right, and that this is the right solution. At least, I'll have a CE-branded filter to show to the environmental people, should they show up.

Best regards
Peter
I am glad you seem to have found a solution to your problem. I hope everything works out for the best.

[Ricky Gore]

If that doesn't work, just get rid of the neighbors. :cool:

[Anthony Scira]

I would pay 3200 dollars not to have to move all my stuff !

But I would move before I sold my laser !

[Sandra Force]

Zvi,

Polycarbonate does not cut with the smooth edge, I get a slightly rough edge and leave the plastic making on while cutting to keep it clean. If I need an extremly smooth edge I slide it through the belt sander once lightly and it is good to go. I do not have trouble burniing it, I run primarily 1/8" black and clear. I run poly at around the same speed or a little faster and same power as I do 1/8 abs. I run 100 and 150 watt lasers and have no idea how smaller ones would work. :) I have never had any problems with poly hazing, maybe due to the masking being left on.

[Stanley Waldrup]

Are you sure they can even smell it at all, might be they just don’t want you there. They hear the blower and their mind tell them they smell it when in fact they can’t. If something is irritating you for what ever reason it easy for you to overreact when hear see the associated stimulation in this case the blower. If you ran the laser doing a dry run or two just to generate some noise and you still get smell complaints you can be damm sure its in their head.

Was also going to suggest a water percolation unit to ease off on any actual smells but its being suggested already by people who know what their talking about.

Reminds me of when I set up my Ham Radio Antennas. The whole block was having TV interference 8 months before I bought the Radio's.
Stanley

[Ed Lang]

Reminds me of when I set up my Ham Radio Antennas. The whole block was having TV interference 8 months before I bought the Radio's.
Stanley

Been there and done that too. de KC4YLX.

73,

[Bill Cunningham]

Yup!! 35 years ago, I hid my first 20 and 15 meter dipoles in the attic.. I had a neighbor with a black and white T.V. that had a old 21 meg I.F. strip.. He said he could see my lips moving on his screen:eek: I twisted a NE2 around one leg of the 80 mtr cw band dipole, just to entertain folks walking by with the 'giant firefly' :D de VE3HHW

[Peter Boyford]

Well... I have just played around with the new filter. It has... NO EFFECT AT ALL! The room fills up with a violent odor of cut acrylic after just a short while!

I have checked filters and vacuum to no avail. The distributor tells me, there is no way I can operate the filter wrong. Either it's on or off.

So this is going back. Thought these filters actually worked? Why didn't it?

[Bill Cunningham]

Even if the filter worked, the stink would stick with the cabinet. Did the maker of the filter you have 'say' it would work with acrylic? If he did, then it has to work, or get your money back..

[Martin Reynolds]

1) I use magnetic rubber strips to seal up the vents when not in use. That stops most of the smell.
2) The filter should have 3kg at least of activated carbon in it. Filters alone won't do much. An activated carbon filter will kill the smell pretty quickly. Put another way, the filter should be heavy - or it will be useless.

[Frank Corker]

Well... I have just played around with the new filter. It has... NO EFFECT AT ALL! The room fills up with a violent odor of cut acrylic after just a short while!

I have checked filters and vacuum to no avail. The distributor tells me, there is no way I can operate the filter wrong. Either it's on or off.

So this is going back. Thought these filters actually worked? Why didn't it?


Peter, it just can't be working! When I initially went to my laser supplier, they had 5 laser machines which were inside and all working. None of them were vented outside, they all went into carbon scrubbers. Even when they were all engraving you could smell the coffee being made in the kitchen, if you are getting a really bad odour from your machine, then there really is something wrong and it cannot be venting out of the machine.

Cast acrylic has a sweetish smell to it and although not that nice in large doses, not really that bad. Extruded acrylic just stinks, no matter what, even after it has been cut if you pick up a piece the smell transfers to your hands. I try to avoid extruded wherever possible but I use an awful lot of cast acrylic.

[Joe Pelonio]

I'm thinking leak. I too have seen demos of many lasers at shows and at the seller's showrooms with the air scrubbers on and there was no smell at all.

Likewise, I have cut 1/4" acrylic all day long many times, and as long a I wait a few seconds before opening the top, my exhaust has blown out all of the smell. Yes, there's going to be a mild aroma from the cut acrylic itself for a while, but to me it's no objectionable and as long as I keep the door closed it never gets to any other rooms.

With the exhaust and filter running, try moving your hand or a small piece of tissue around all the joints and see if you can see of feel any air that's escaping before getting to the filer.

[Frank Corker]

I agree with Joe, it could well be that you have a leak in one of the connections or in the exhausting pipe itself. If I start engraving wood, the usual plumes of smoke start coming from the burned wood, turn on the blower and that smoke is gone in seconds. If yours is still hanging around it must be in or around the machine

[James Jaragosky]

I purchased a air scrubber once to accommodate my father the smoker as he laid dieing of cancer in my spare bedroom. It was a top of the line model and was around $800. I remember thinking that it should do a better job for $800, but my father passed away and it went into storage. I wound up giving it to my brother the smoker ( he got a non smoking apartment and wanted to smoke anyway) well to shorten this story, my brother informed me that the machine had 3 filters and the innermost charcoal filter was still in its protective plastic bag. "DUH" should have read the directions.
don't know if this story will help but you might try re-reading the directions.